Talk:Robin Williams/Archive 10

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Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2021

Change "committed suicide" to " died by suicide" as language around suicide is important. 24.78.149.243 (talk) 18:16, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done See prior sections; WP goes by reliable sourcing and permits the use of "commit suicide" if that's commonly used. --Masem (t) 18:22, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Suicide is no longer a crime and no longer a sin -therefore died by suicide is better,kinder, and more accurate than "committed".Many secondary sources for this. Who is holding out still for "committed"?— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 19:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Me, our sources, and many others, because it's non-offensive and very common English. HiLo48 (talk) 03:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

This repeated passive reasoning and justification for "committed" is irrational and very obviously being used to perpetuate the negative connotation. Consciouslee (talk) 03:29, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm one of those arguing, and I see no negative connotations whatsoever in "committed suicide". And do be careful with describing other's comments as irrational. That's not a helpful approach to discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 08:40, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

The only "irrational" thinking here is the objection to the perfectly normal and non-offensive phrase "committed suicide". --Khajidha (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

The associated press and many suicide prevention groups strongly discourage the use of "committed" and suggest instead "died by suicide", "took her life", or "killed himself". Being "non-offensive" is irrelevant. Commit is a loaded term in this context, and very much not neutral. Whether you personally see it that way isn't the issue. The dictionary is not vague on what commit means in this context, it is wrong like murder. Aaron Bruce (talk) 17:36, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Commit is NOT a loaded term in this context, and very much neutral. It has been thus all my longish life. I am aware of nothing that has caused anything to change. HiLo48 (talk) 07:55, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Woke language police with too much time on their hands sitting around twiddling their thumbs while trying to think of what word or phrase to start a crusade against next. (I am referring not to wiki editors, but the people that dream up this stuff in the first place). The irony is that they are (presumably) oblivious that when they pick out prevalent words and phrases and run around declaring these words inflammatory, or whatever, they are the ones actually causing people harm: by convincing folk that every time someone says something a certain way, it's meant to be hurtful, when in fact its just standard language use. Firejuggler86 (talk) 16:00, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Considering all of these edit requests to change this language, it may be time to start an RfC. As I've said in Archive 9, when recent sources describe Williams' death most do not use the language "committed suicide", so neither should we. (I've also argued that the idiom "commit suicide" violates NPOV because dictionaries say it is stigmatizing,[1] [2] [3] but that's for wider community discussion.) Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:57, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

We just had an RFC less than 6 months ago. That means it is time to drop the stick. --Masem (t) 17:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Not for this article. Answering in non sequiturs is disruptive. Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:00, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

We are not meant to directly repeat what our sources say. We are supposed to paraphrase. "Committed suicide" is a perfectly harmless and more natural way of paraphrasing "died by suicide". HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Per the community-wide RfC on "committed suicide": Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited source says and follow their formulation.[4] We could have an RfC on which language to use in this article. Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

But why? HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Folks you really want to cop on to yourselves here. "Committed suicide" implies that it is a crime or a sin. Suicide prevention organisations worldwide oppose the use of the word "committed" in relation to suicide and all recommend using "died by suicide", "took own life" or variants of this nature.

Stop using triggering language and use the terms recommended by experts in the field - not self appointed wikipedia editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macros42 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Per the RFC, WP editors made a judgment if there was enough drive across English language sources overall to see if there was a shift to eliminate "committed suicide", and while it was recognized there was concern from some mental health professionals, as well as some changes in style guides, there wasn't yet enough change to merit eliminating the term. WP is not going to be "first" to implement a wording change like this if it is not backed up by the body of sources we use. --Masem (t) 01:34, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The January RFC was really quite decisive. The Wikipedia editing community is strongly in favor of allowing usage of "committed suicide" when the reliable sources we summarize use that term. Anyone who does not like the work of "self appointed Wikipedia editors" is perfectly free to stop reading this encyclopedia, and read "Expertpedia" instead. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Macros42 - Are you incapable of reading, or just deliberately lying about what others say? Again, I say "committed suicide". I have done so for 60 years. When I say it, I AM NOT implying that the person committed a crime or a sin. Got it? Stop accusing me of meaning something I don't mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's bullshit. HiLo48 (talk) 04:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm well capable of reading thanks. I didn't say you personally are implying anything but every single mental health organisation that I know about has said it is a stigmatising term. It is no longer in common usage in mental health or suicide prevention circles. And it's time Wikipedia moved with that. Macros42 (talk) 21:36, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Let me quote precisely what you wrote - "Committed suicide implies that it is a crime or a sin." What part of that says it didn't mean that when I say it? HiLo48 (talk) 23:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The contention here is that the sources which discuss Williams' death since 2018/2019 do not use the term. Kolya Butternut (talk) 08:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

That was NOT Macros42's contention. Their contention was that I implied something entirely different from what I wrote, AND what I meant. That approach does not help me to change my mind on this. HiLo48 (talk) 10:02, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

HiLo48, you seem to be taking this edit very personally. What's up with that?Zacharysyoung (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

When you use what is a completely neutral phrase in your dialect and are told that you are being an insensitive lout for doing so, you get a little peeved off. --Khajidha (talk) 17:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Modern linguists prefer louts be called "assholes" and insist peeved people are properly "pissed", quit sugarlighting things, K-Dog. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Never been mistaken for Konnan before..... --Khajidha (talk) 12:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, good news, you still haven't! I was confusing you with Kingsif from late October 2019. No hard feelings, 🐫 for everyone? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2021

The link for the words "grand jury" refers to the wrong wikipedia article. Riedsch (talk) 22:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 09:24, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2021

Please change the phrase “committed suicide” to “completed suicide”. 71.212.173.116 (talk) 23:50, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:55, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Commit suicide terms is inaccurate and stigmatizing

Please change both terms 'committed suicide' to the less stigmatizing and appropriate term of 'died by suicide'. The person who died by suicide did not commit or complete a crime - they died by suicide, or if another medical diagnosis has been made, they died by that illness, for example, depression or Parkinson's <https://www.nami.org/mhstats> ----— Preceding unsigned comment added by NAMIaware (talk • contribs)

There was a large site-wide RFC that affirmed that as long as sources use "commit suicide", we should follow sources to use that term as well. As most sources at the time of Williams' death used "committed suicide" (And still do now) that's the approach we use now. --Masem (t) 12:55, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2021

Please change “committed suicide” to “died by suicide.” This is a less stigmatizing way to describe how he died. Saltbox1937 (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Please look through the talk archives. This topic has been discussed at length and the community has chosen the way it is and your requested change is not going to happen. The only way to get it changed to for you to have a discussion and convince the community to agree with you. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:51, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2021

Change “ On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams committed suicide” to “ On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams died by suicide” Notarealduvk (talk) 22:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Please see responses above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2021

Change “Committed suicide” to “died by suicide” MariePerry123 (talk) 01:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Many, many discussions on this topic, it is as wanted by the community. See archives - FlightTime (open channel) 01:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2021

I am requesting that all instances of "committed suicide" be changed to "died by suicide" so that information on Mr. Williams' passing can be empathetically and more respectfully conveyed.

Here are some articles on the subject. They provide information on the distinction between the two phrases and why the distinction is important.

https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/October-2018/Why-I-Don-t-Say-My-Son-%E2%80%98Committed-Suicide

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546

https://www.dictionary.com/e/mental-health-language/

Regards,

Carlripleylocke (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Carl Ripley Locke Carlripleylocke (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:54, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Carlripleylocke: -- Please see the box I literally placed on the talkpage earlier today. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 05:05, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I removed the box and commented in the section above. Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Rockstone - Thanks for the note. As this my first attempt to contribute to a page, I am not as familiar with the process or the components as others are. Carlripleylocke (talk) 20:02, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Note before making semi-protected edit requests

It occurs to me that any mobile user will not see the box placed above (for some reason), so I am placing it here in the hopes that it cuts down on the number of editors making semi-protected requests for a change of phrasing. If you are requesting that the phrase "committed suicide" be changed to "died by suicide"; the current consensus is that the current language should stay. Please see this RFC. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 05:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Rockstone35, I removed the template box. That RfC states that policy allows "committed suicide", but also that Perhaps the best idea is to see what the cited sources in each article say and follow their formulation. There have been so many requests to change the language in this article that perhaps it is time for a local RfC. As I commented in Archive 9, the best and most recent sources which discuss Williams' suicide do not use "committed suicide". Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

You're welcome to start that RFC; but I think it's pretty evident that without new consensus on this page, these edit requests are all going to be denied. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 12:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

This is interesting: In September 2019, Britannica said that Williams "committed suicide",[5] and by April 2020 that had been changed to "died by suicide".[6] This is consistent with what I have observed; all high level sources stopped using "committed suicide" by some time in 2019. Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanx for the update. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

That is interesting! @Kolya Butternut: -- feel free to make a new local RFC on the matter; if you'd like. I'm not sure I'd support such a change, but if reliable sources are using different language, it may be appropriate for us to do the same. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 03:39, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Rockstone35, why do you think we need an RFC to change the wording in one article? The RFC you link to does not require that this article keep this phrase. The main conclusion from that RFC was that "if some other equal or better formulation exists and a change is made, we should not tendentiously revert it." That indicates that it would actually be okay to replace those words. At this point, "some other equal or better formulation" could well be defined as "one that doesn't clog this page with endless requests". WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: because I think the current wording is just fine; and I believe many others would agree. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 04:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes. I do. HiLo48 (talk) 05:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Is the language in these sources also fine? [7],[8] Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kolya Butternut: this is why an RFC would be nice to have. I'm not sure if there's consensus to change the language; so we should make a local RFC rather than argue. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 06:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

We may be able to avoid an RfC if we can find another agreeable formulation, or even just say: "On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams died at his home in Paradise Cay, California. His death was a suicide." Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I still don't see any problem at all with "committed suicide". It carries no negativity in my mind, when I read it, when I hear it, when I write it, when I say it. I have been seeing this debate for some years now, and have seen nothing to convince me there truly is a problem with that expression. HiLo48 (talk) 09:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The question is, are there other ways to say the same thing that are also not a problem in your mind? Kolya Butternut (talk) 11:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not HiLo, but I also see no problem with "committed suicide". Most of the alternatives I've seen seem as bad to me as "committed" seems to others. Or even worse. "Died by suicide" - this isn't something that happened to him, it is something he did. "Completed suicide" - presents suicide as a positive goal. "Took his own life" - as he already had his life, how did he "take" it? "Suicided" - completely awkward and sounds like the speaker is less than fluent. The only ones I've seen that are acceptable are things like "killed himself" or "his death was a suicide". --Khajidha (talk) 13:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with "killed himself" or "death was a suicide". How about "ended his life"?[9] Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kolya Butternut: -- honestly, even if all of us find consensus for different language, I'm not sure if the community at large will. Probably best to just do an RFC; it's not a big deal. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 20:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Seems we're having a RfC now, only thing missing is the official title, by the way, I think the current wording is just fine. This phrase does not fire up my "Political correct" detector. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok, but let's work on the framing before hastily launching into one that we later regret. Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

What can an RfC now unearth that hasn't already been said in the multiple discussions on this matter that have already occurred? It strikes me as possibly an attempt to win the debate by attrition, hoping that enough editors will get so bored with this matter they give up. HiLo48 (talk) 21:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Object to "ended his life" as too flowery.--Khajidha (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Discussion continued at #Committed suicide pre-RFC discussion