Talk:Romanians/Archive 2

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The number of Romanians?

I was just curious how did we get the number of Romanians: 24 mil?

ethnologue misses on a lot of countries. they miss the fact that there are almost 200.000 romanians in the russian federation and central asia and that the romanian population of ukraine is at least 400.000, not 250.000( even the ukrainian census admits to 410.000 romanians, albeit with the negative growth rate that number is closer to 390.000 by now). Likewise, they miss that in Ukraine there are almost 7-8 mil russian speakers.

Also, when we say that in Hungary there are 100.000 Romanians, that is really deceiving. Out of these 100.000 "Romanians", 90.000 are Hungarian-Szecklers who migrated from Transylvania to Hungary. They are Romanians speakers but ethnic Romanians are only 10.000 of the population.

In retrospect, the Romanians in Israel are not 50.000. Romanian-Jews there comprise at least 250.000 people. I know about the note that says the number does not include the 450.000 Jews of Romanian origin but what does this 50.000 number reffer to? Romanian-Jews that speak Romanian or non-Jewish Romanians who live in Israel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaitza (talk • contribs) 10 Sept 2005

I'm not sure on the Israel figure, but there certainly are a lot of non-Jewish Romanians in Israel. Certainly thousands of Romanian men work there in construction; I don't know the number of ethnic Romanians married to Romanian Jews and living in Israel.

You're probably right on the Szecklers. Prevailing definitions in Eastern Europe probably shouldn't count these people as Romanians, but things like this get tricky because the construction of ethnicity varies around the world. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:31, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Why don't we count only ethnic Romanians when we talk about "the Romanians", this would put the Hungarian figure at 10.000. For Israel, I think the fairest thing to do is to count ethnic Romanians, those 250.000 + the 50.000 people that use Romanian in their every day life( in other words, count everyone regardless of religion).

I remembered an example in my own family where the wife is Romanian-Orthodox and the father is Jewish-Romanian. Obviously the wife would pe part of the 50.000 figure while the husband would be considered part of the 250.000 or 450.000 Romanian-Jewish figure. They speak Romanian at home but their children are trilingual : Hebrew, Romanian, English.

I read an article once, which stated that Romanian is the foreign language most commonly used in Israel in that Romanian publications are second only to those publications in Hebrew. Mihaitza 15:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

• I suspect Arabic would be second and Romanian third. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:46, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

• Russian third and Romanian fourth. Romanian may have been third before the large-scale Soviet Jews emmigration. bogdan | ^Talk 11:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

• • Of course! How could I forget? My turn to feel very dumb. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:11, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

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I was just wondering, how many ethnic romanians live in the world today, because i know for a fact that there are over 1 milion romanians living in the united states, but ethnologue states that there are only 367,000. Also i was reading a recent article, which stated that spain is home to 317,000 romanians now. Also I was wondering how many romanians live in western europe (legal and non-legal)? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.2.111 (talk • contribs) 29 Sept 2005

If you "know for a fact", what is your source? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:53, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

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Jmabel, how many romanians do you think there are today in the present? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.17.88 (talk • contribs) 3 Oct 2005

• I wouldn't venture an independent guess, other than to say that the numbers in the mid-20-millions we've been seeing in this article strike me as being in the right range. I'm not a subject-matter expert on Eastern-European demographics (though I'm clueful). My goals here are good process and accurate sourcing, and on both of those I do know what's what. I have a fairly good knowledge of sources of demographic information, of census methodologies, and of sourcing in general, and a lot of what I try to do on things like this is to make sure people don't replace well-cited numbers with poorly cited numbers, and that we represent the range of expert opinion where expert opinion varies. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, You said that you believe the number of romanians is in the mid 20- millions. Can you give a more accurate number (eg: 25-26 million)? I was recently looking at the 1990 and 2000 US census, and to my surprise the number of romanians only increased by roughly 1700-1800 people, over a time of ten years. Nearly all other nationalaties increased by quite a lot more. Can you give a reason for why this is the case? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.16.244 (talk • contribs) 4 Oct 2005

As I said, I don't have the specific expertise to give an estimate more accurate than the ones we've been seeing, and I'd be either a fool or a knave to pretend I did.

The lack of increase in the U.S. census is odd if other Eastern European ethnicities showed more of an increase; I'd have to look a lot more closely at the numbers to even hazard a guess about pattern, but remember that the number is (1) based entirely on self-reporting and (2) is an extrapolation from those Americans (about 10%, if I remember correctly) who are given the long-form census. Hence, it is not really a very precise number, even if it is official. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

jmabel, how did we get the number of romanians 24.5 million. There would be a lot of illegal romanian immigrants residing in western Europe, that are not listed on the census of each country. I certainly think that there are more than 367,000 romanians in America. And i would presume that Canada has more than 160,000. The romanian-american network, has estimated that in 2002, 1.2 million romanians were living in america. Also ro-media states that romanians in canada have reached 400,000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.50.60.39 (talk • contribs) 8 Oct 2005

As for how we got it, you can read the edit history as well as I.

These numbers you say come from the "romanian-american network" and "ro-media": can you please give clear citations? Sounds like material that belongs in the article, with appropriate citation. In general, I support indicating the range of estimates for numbers like this (with citation) rather than a single number. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:38, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel here is the site for the number of romanians in america http://www.romanian-american.net/ You then have to click on the romanian-american communities. you can also see the number of romanians in canada, and romanians in america at http://www.romedia.us/target/index.htm

I just caught up with this at the tail end of my day; it's after midnight here. I'll try to get a look at this in the next few days. By the way, the http://www.romedia.us/target/index.htm link appears dead, at least at the moment, are you sure the link is correct? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The link http://www.romedia.us/target/index.htm is correct, I just accessed it, and it worked

Australia, United States

who researches these figures on romanians, because if you look at the australian census of 2001, people who declared themselves romanians were only 19,000 - 20,000. The number of 50,000 is way out of porportion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.27.150.113 (talk • contribs) 1 Oct 2005

Various people have edited, you'd have to check the article history to work out who.

Censuses in most English-speaking countries tend to undercount the European ethnicities. I know the U.S. best (it's where I'm from), but I gather that Australia is pretty similar on this. A lot of people just describe themselves as "white". Obviously, those people have European ancestry, but don't end up counted in any ethnicity more precise than a racial identity. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:23, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, I think that the census process in Australia might indeed differ from that used in the US, & maybe elsewhere, so "undercounting" may not be as prevalent. The AU census (see the questionnaire which was used in 2001, here, distributed to all households) does not ask any questions to identify on the basis of race ("white", "black", etc) or ethnicity, but instead asks "Q11. In which country was the person born?" (1 answer), "Q15. Does the person speak a language other than English at home?" (1 answer, indicating which) and "Q18. What is the person's ancestry?" (multiple answers possible). True, in this case, someone would have to actually write in "Romania(n)" if this was the answer to any of these (it isn't provided as a "tick-box" option), but given that all questions are supposed to be answered and then checked for completeness on collection, the overall info gathered should be relatively specific on these points. The census is confidential (not anonymous), and it's hard to see there would be any significant "fear factor" in operation which might dissuade someone from answering accurately- or at least enough to skew the figures greatly one way or the other. As noted above, the 2001 census tally put the figure of Romania-born people in AU at a shade under 13,000. The figure in the current article (50,000) would have to be an absolute outside maximum at best. What would you say to its amendment?--cjllw | TALK 08:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

1. I agree that there is no "fear factor" here.
2. The "ancestry" question would yield the most relevant number. This article is on Romanians as an ethnic group. Romanian-born and ethnic Romanian are two entirely different matters. I have Jewish cousins who are Romanian-born, but are not Romanians. Conversely, Constantin Parvulescu of Ensemble Sub Masa is an ethnic Romanian, even though his family are several generations in America. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I see. Of the 12,950 respondents who indicated they were Romanian-born, 8,630 also indicated Romanian ancestry, other ancestries given including Hungarian (1090) and German (440). Where ancestry alone is analysed, ABS statistics place total of "Romanian ancestry" responses in the range 10,000-19,999 (the table is poorly aligned, I count them in the 8th grouping from the top). Even allowing for recent immigration, under-reporting & other factors, the 50,000 figure given in this article would still seem to be a little high.--cjllw | TALK 08:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

cjll, do u live in Australia? i have lived here all my life, and i am part of the romanian community. At present it is estimated that the figure has just gone past 42,000 of romanian ethnicity. There are a lot of romanians in Australia from serbia-montenegro. This is because they were allowed to leave freely, when the romanians were still under communism. I have many romanian friends here who are of 2nd-3rd generation romanians from serbia living here in australia. In melbourne it is estimated that there are around 15,000, i live in melbourne and i can assure u there are a lot of romanians here. You have to understand that a lot of romanians choose to give their ancestry as Australian, because they have been her for a long time now. Yes there are 8,630 romanian born (ancestry) people living in Australia, but like i said a lot of them came from neighbouring countries (serbia-montengro), and a lot of romanians are born i Australia. So, i believe the 50,000 number is quite accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs)

Yes, 203.134.13.194, I do currently reside in Australia. I was only drawn into this discussion when I came across a claim elsewhere that there were 500,000 Romanian language speakers in AU, which I thought could not possibly be correct. Let me assure you that I have absolutely no interest or desire to under-represent figures for Romanians (or anyone else)- it is no skin off my nose whatever the figure may be. My only concern is for the reliability and credibility of Wikipedia- when 3-4 articles on related topics concurrently give wildly-varying numbers, which furthermore seem to be changed on an almost daily basis and are not appropriately referenced, it only serves to lessen the overall value of information contained in WP, and generates skepticism about other figures which for all the reader knows could be accurately researched or total fantasy- how is the reader to judge if there are no cites?

I fully appreciate the inherent difficulties and inaccuracies in compiling figures of this nature, and that even "official" statistics are just that- statistical samples potentially subject to systemic bias of one form or another. Who knows why or how many census respondents fail to indicate a Romanian ancestry (for example) when otherwise they would be entitled to do so? There's no way of knowing, all that can be done is to note what the census figures actually reported- if we don't, then other readers who come across these figures (such as user 211.27.150.113, above) will be puzzled as to the mismatch.

If indeed there are higher estimates which are supported by some credible source, then by all means they can be mentioned too (I'm aware the 50,000 figure in this article has a reference, albeit in Romanian; I for one cannot assess whether this is a credible source or not, and the referenced article does not appear itself to say where it got this number from- I gather it mentions that Romanian ancestry might also be identified or shared by Greek, German, Serbian, Croatian, & other ancestries). Similarly, if the 42,000 estimate you mention has a source, then let's see it. If, as is apparent in this case, the statistics and the available estimates differ, then let's say so in the article, rather than arbitrarily choosing one estimate over another. The important thing is for the reader to be able to gauge for themselves the reliability or otherwise of the figures, and to be able to discern how the figure has been arrived at (in the case of ABS figures, the source is transparent; for other estimates put forward thus far, it is unclear, these should be explicitly marked as "estimate").

So I would suggest that a range be given, the 13,000-20,000 max of ABS (2001) stats, to whatever upper estimate can be supported, each source marked accordingly.

As for the hypothesis that many erstwhile Romanians indicated instead Australian or other ancestry, that may be the case, but I don't know how this number could be calculated. In the minefield of ethnic identity, one should also be careful not to ignore the right to self-identification: how someone describes their ancestry in the census is their business, who are we to say "no, they are really Romanians" (or Elbonians, or anything else)?--cjllw | TALK 00:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

cjll, are u a romanian from Australia? Basically i asked u this, because if you are, you would understand/realise that there are more than 20,000 romanians in Australia. You you're self stated that there is no way of finding out how many "romanians" declared their ancestry as Australian or anything else. Most Australians in Australia consider themselves "hyphenated Australian", as Australian is not an ethnicity. Obviously, people that declare Australian as their ethnicity, have a european, or some other ancestry behind them. we are not trying to find how many people declare themselves "Romanian", but how many ethnic romanians live in the world at present. Look at the American Census of 2000. only 367,000 declared Romanian as their ethnicity, and in the 1990 U.S census 365,000 people declared their ethnicity as Romanian. Any way it worked out that about 1,800 people more declared Romanian ethnicity in the space of 10 years. With all seriousness, do you think that only 1,800 romanians immigrated to america in the space of 10 years, in the years after the communism regime ended in 1989. it is estimated that 2.5 million romanians left romania upto this present since the comunism regime ended (i don't know where u can get the source for 2.5 mill). Mate you have to think logical. Even though census results are goverment data, they are by no means completely accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.111.194 (talk • contribs) 5 Nov 2005

I'm not sure what my own ancestry has to do with it, nor how having any particular ancestry gives anyone any particular insight into the "true" total numbers for that ancestry. I have already noted that "official" sources such as census counts may have their own issues; this however is insufficient reason to ignore what they report altogether. And again, I've no objection to estimates which differ from these figures, but they need to be (a)plausible (b)credibly sourced and (c)explicitly marked. The cite for the 50,000 figure does not appear to say how it arrived at this figure- it could be the product of meticulous research, or a rounded-up stab in the dark. "Thinking logically", the 'true' figure for number of ethnic Romanians (or just about any other dispersed group) is unobtainable; WP's job then is just to report on the available figures and range of (supported) estimates. Self-identification (how many people declare x, y or z ancestry) remains a valid measure (one amongst several) of ethnicity and its constructs, I don't think it can be so easily dismissed. There are plenty of well-trodden and ultimately unresolvable arguments for and against any given definition of 'ethnicity', or how membership is determined- we are unlikely to be able to add to the reader's understanding and comprehension in this contentious area without first supplying such information as is available.--cjllw | TALK 01:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

ok, CJLL i understand where u are coming from, but you haven't answered my question. you haven't given me an answer to the romanians in america issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 7 Nov 2005

Well, I'm certainly no expert in the area, so any view I have may not count for much. Several possible explanations spring to mind, such as:

• The figure may in fact be accurate, and the nett increase over that period, contrary to what may be assumed, is actually close to that mark. Of those supposed 2.5M emigrants you mention, the bulk may well have ended up somewhere in Europe, which is presumably easier to reach, than in the U.S.
• The figure may represent a statistical anomaly; I don't really know, but I think that the census process in the U.S. is not based on a compilation of responses from all households (as is the case in Australia), but on some smaller representative sample. Under such circumstances, the occasional statistical variance may arise.
• Some (unknowable) combination of factors may militate towards census under-reporting, such as a general desire to identify with the surrounding community (and hence not indicate other ancestries), identifying with some "larger" ethnicity instead (eg "European", "white"), etc. Perhaps some are not surveyed, or are reluctant to be included, say if they are "illegally" working or present.

Again, there's no real way of identifying the "true" picture, all that can be done is to note what the census figures do report, and supplement with any referenced credible estimates if they are available.

As for the RoMedia site reference which maintains that there are "really" 1.1 mil. Romanians in the U.S., I would think it needs to be taken with more than a grain of salt. For starters, like all media companies it no doubt has a vested interest in claiming as high a potential audience reach figure as possible, and it would hardly be alone if it has "inflated" these numbers. The page on which this information appears certainly is geared towards generating advertising revenue, and almost exclusively highlights the "educated professional with $$ to spend" demographic of its potential Romanian audience (which is perhaps true of those who actually subscribe to its channels, but not necessarily extendable to the entire "1.1M" population). In order to reach this figure, the Ro-Am "study" explicitly adds-in other ethnic groups such as Armenians, Germans, Hungarians, Russians, etc who may have some tenuous or historical connection with Romania, but would not I think be otherwise included in the "Romanian ethnicity" designation for this page. --cjllw | TALK 02:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

cjllw, if you look closely at the ro-am study, it says that 50-60,000 german romanians in U.S. and Canada, and 200-225,000 jewish-romanians in the U.S and Canada. armenians and etc around 70,000. All up about 380,000 people from romania in america and Canada, but from different ancestries. Do the Maths 1.5 million in America and Canada - 380,000 people = 1,120,000 ethnic romanians in North America, meaning that in the column where it says romanians, there is around 620,000 people missing. 367,000 in america= 131,000 in canada =498,000.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 8 Nov 2005

Well, FWIW I don't quite follow your calculations- what is the basis for the seemingly-arbitrary 1.5 million used as your starting point? It would seem more logical to start from the bottom, adding together the various components to arrive at a figure: something like 1990Census figures + whatever allowance for 2nd/3rd generation of these +whatever number of Moldavians, Romanian Jews, etc etc one wants to include = some plausible estimate. Ro-Am's presentation of their numbers is quite opaque, and are unlikely to help much (if I quickly add up all their explicit figures for various Romanian-associated ethnicities in US/Canada, I arrive at a little over 730,000). But no matter, whether you or I or some other Wikipedian calculates it, it would border on Original Research. The current article gives a range 365,000-1.2mil; the "true" figure in all likelyhood lies somewhere in-between, but not at the extremities, of this range. I have my own doubts about the reliability of the Ro-Am and RoMedia figures, as set out above; however I've no hard evidence to counter, perhaps they are made in good faith after all, and likely others are equally happy with these estimates. The Ro-Am site mentions some 1999 Romanian Embassy study, perhaps this (or some academic research, if it exists) could help if tracked down to further clarify matters. As things stand, the current wide range is probably the safest.--cjllw | TALK 07:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

As a final addendum, the aforementioned Romanian embassy study mentions "The Romanian-American population is estimated at approximately one million people, although only half were counted in the 1990 Census." It does not however give any further details as to how the estimate was arrived at.--cjllw | TALK 06:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Bulgaria

VMORO asks in an edit summary "why don't you estimate 800,000 or 8,000,000?". Answer: because the numbers would clearly be false, and no reputable source would say this. But please see the cited source, an article from a reputable newspaper, and which I see no reason to doubt as an informed estimate. I suspect that the massive discrepancy from official figures is because the official figures do not count (possibly undocumented) foreign workers. International standards say that anyone whose primary domicile is in a country more than a year should be counted as living in that country, not the country of his/her citizenship. However, many countries don't abide by that. I don't know enough about the Bulgarian census to say anything for sure on this, but unsurprisingly, almost all national censuses under-count illegal immigrants. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

What you say is completely true but we are not talking about France, Germany or Canada where there are without a doubt large immigrant commmunities of Romanians which (equally without a doubt) are underestimated in census results. Some countries (like Germany, for example) don't even have the criterion of ethnicity quite deliberately and for obvious reasons. However, we are talking about Bulgaria where there are practically no Romanian immigrants!!! Why would they come in the first place??? The reason why the estimated number was 80,000 was because in the 1920s there were 60,000-70,000 Vlachs in Bulgaria. However, in the same 1920s, there were 360,000 Bulgarians in Romania!!! A long time has elapsed since the 1920s, borders have changed, there has been an agreement on exchange of populations, etc. So, let's stick to census results and not write jingoistic bullshit. VMORO 17:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

VMORO, you say "The reason why the estimated number was 80,000 was because in the 1920s there were 60,000-70,000 Vlachs in Bulgaria." Are you saying that is why Evenimentul Zilei made that claim? EZ never struck me as an ultra-nationalist paper, and the article certainly makes no allusions to the 1920s. Other numbers in the article strike me as reasonable. I could imagine some might even be off by a factor of two (this is obviously difficult stuff to estimate), but nothing to suggest that anything there would be off by a factor of 80. I honestly don't know first-hand the extent to which there are Romanians working in Bulgaria, though I know there are many in Ukraine (which doesn't make any more obvious economic or cultural sense); I've met Romanians who have worked there.

Does anyone else have knowledge of this independent of EZ or their own personal impression? (That is, does anyone have an independent citation on the number of Romanians who are working in Bulgaria? Is there an official -- or even unofficial -- Romanian gov't estimate?) -- Jmabel | Talk 06:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

In Spain

If you are interested in the number of Romanians in Spain, take care since Spanish authorities probably note only Romanian citizens, not distinguishing ethnic Romanians and Romanian gipsies, as this article seems to do. You could get the number of eth Ros by substracting the gipsies, but since the immigration growth is continuous and a big part is illegal, you would need one survey of citizens and gipsies taken at one time under common criteria. --Error 00:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Error, what are you talking about? Obviously there is no way of distinguishing ethnic romanians, and romanian gypsies. But the majority of romanian gypsies abroad consider romania to be their country, so i dont think that romanian gypsies aren't romanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 13 Nov 2005

In Spain, Italy and Greece

IN case anyone wants the latest official data on the number of legal Romanian immigrants in thee countries, they are the following: Spain -- 190.000; Italy -- 249.000; Greece -- 29.000. Of course, there are very high estimates of illegal Romanian migrants as well.

Martin Baldwin-Edwards Mediterranean Migration Observatory

Roma in Romania

Jmabel, How many roma in romania? There has to be more than what the census says(500,000) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.111.194 (talk • contribs) 26 Oct 2005

No idea why you are addressing that to me, but I'd be inclined to agree that the census would be a minimum. No non-Roma in Romania will tell a census taker they are Roma; some Roma will either avoid the census-taker or (especially if non-traditional, assimilationist) not say they are Roma. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel,Wat does this mean (especially if non-traditional, assimilationist). Do most rroma assimilate in the romanian majority poulation. Or do most of them consider themselves romanian

From what I can tell, only a relatively small number assimilate. I hesitate to venture a guess at a percentage -- I only spent 6 months in Romania ever, and while I'm an observant person, that's not long enough to know this kind of thing well. Certainly they exist. I'd be interested in hearing from some Romanians on this. It must be very hard to get decent numbers on something like this, because with so much prejudice against Roma/rroma/ţigani (take your pick), anyone assimilationist who can hide their ancestry probably will, at least from strangers.

Certainly traditionalist Roma do not consider themselves Romanian in an ethnic sense, even if though most speak Romanian at a native level. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

203.134.13.194 and the total count

JMABEL, How did we get the number 24 mill? 30,000 subtracted from Australia, and 79,000 from Bulgaria, equals 109,000. 24.5 mill - 109,000 equals 24,391,000. Not 24 mill. I strongly suggest you change the 24 mill number to 24.4 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 7 Nov 2005

You can change it as easily as I. Anything between about 23.5 million and 27 million looks perfectly plausible to me, if it's within that range I'm not going to be objecting. However, none of these numbers will really mean a lot until someone has the time and patience to bring some solid methodology to this, which would probably involve two sets of parallel numbers: one based on censuses and official estimates, and one that allows estimates from other plausible sources. The latter is going to require a lot of care and a solid set of notes in order to get around NOR, because there is a real danger of "double counting", such as counting illegal emigrants both in Romanian/Moldova and in the country where they physically reside. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, you've left a gap of 3.5 mill. Why so big (23.5-27 mill).

I have changed the number of romanians from 24 mill to 26.5 mill. This was basically changed because the reference Albeit, gives an "estimation", of 10 million romanians abroad. I have done some research into this number, and i consider it to be quite close. Some sources say 12 million, but thats way to much. I have broken it down as follows; 650,000 hungarians left romania for hungary or somewhere else at the when transylvania was given to Romania at trianon treaty. Give or take another 300,000 hungarians have migrated since then as well, bringing the number of hungarians out of romania somewhere close to 1 million. 550 thousand german saxon swabians, 450,000 romanian jews in Israel, and around 200-225 romanian jews in America and canada. Give or take probably around another 50-100 thousand romanians Jews in different places around the world, bringing the total number of romanian jews and germans at approximately 1.3 million. 10 million - 2.3 million = 7.7 million ethnic romanians. 3.1 million in Moldova and russia (soviet states), 1.6 million in the U.S, canada, ukraine, serbia. 1.5 million in Europe(mainly west) source for in europe is ethnologue 1999 which shows 2 mill, but i subtracted half a million for ethnic germans. All up i get a figure of around 6.2-6.5 million romanians in the diaspora, but it could be bigger (North America) could be more(some stimations as high as over 2 mill). all up if you add it, it is 19.4 mill in Romania + 6.2-6.5 = 25.9 mill. Left 600,000 as minimum, because there could be more. I calculated 6.5 mill, but there could be 7.5 mill depends how u count it.

Jmabel, can u give me some advice concerning these calculations please?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 8 Nov 2005

"So big" a range because (1) I'm not expert, so I hesitate to claim precision and (2) its hard to combine numbers that use different definitions. At some point one is adding apples and oranges, or at least tangerines and oranges. For example, consider an American with a Romanian father and a Polish mother. Does he/she count as half of a Romanian? A whole Romanian? Not at all?

I think your numbers are within reason, but they smack of original research or, more accurately, original interpretation and conjecture. Again, I'm very suspicious of adding up numbers that come from different sources, each of which uses different methodology (some rigorous, some not), and then saying that the total is going to be accurate within much more that ±10%. -- Jmabel |

Talk 05:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, what do you think the number is? 23.5, 24, 24.5 etc..... It would really help me if you could give an estimate of what you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.111.194 (talk • contribs) 11 Nov 2005

I've told you what I think. Unlike some of the people who've worked on this article, I don't have the arrogance to pull a number out of my ass and write it into an encyclopedia. There is no point to my providing precision that exceeds my accuracy. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Side bar

Why is the side bar missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.111.194 (talk • contribs) 17 Nov 2005

What side bar? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Bulgarians in Romania

I recently read an article about the bulgarian diaspora, and it stated that there over 1 million bulgarians living in romania, with more than 200,000 just in Bucharest. the 2002 census recorded that there were only 8000. can this be true, is there 1 million bulgarians in romania? can someone please give an answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 23 Nov 2005