Talk:Romanians/Archive 3

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First Heavier-than-air Flight?

It seems the article may suffer a little from hometown pride. I believe it was a couple of guys named Wright who performed this amazing little feat first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.79.14.15 (talk • contribs) 21 Sept 2005

Or this fellow from Brazil? This is one of those things where several people did this in rather rapid succession, and we will probably never have international consensus who deserves credit for being first. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Santos-Dumont flew in November 1906, while Traian Vuia flew in August 1906. Of course, Wright brothers flew before both of them, but they used a catapult for launching. bogdan | ^Talk 06:02, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The Wright Flyer first flew under its own power on December 17th, 1903. It made four flights that day, the longest of which was 59 seconds. The Wrights had built three aircraft and made dozens of flights before Santos-Dumont or Vuia ever left the ground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.79.14.15 (talk • contribs) 22 Sept 05

I happen to believe that, but the Wrights were highly secretive, and had not publicly announced their feat at the time of the Santos-Dumont or Vuia flights, both of which took off under their own power, and Santos-Dumont at least (I'm not sure about Vuia) showed tremendously more maneuverability than the Wright's craft. In the U.S. we all learn without qualification that the Wrights were first, and accept their 3-years-after-the-fact evidence of their feat, but in many other countries the Wrights' claim that is viewed with some skepticism. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Contested figures

Very funny page, really funny because at population data are all the figures big lies. It was written for example that in Canada there are just 60,000 Romanians or something like that.Well just in Montreal there are over 100,000 Romanians and in Toronto, 350,000.So I doubt that those statistics are very ,,actuals.

 NorbertArthur 29 November 2005

What a f**k is this s**t of page?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!WAKE UP PEOPLE!WE ARE IN 2005! BE LOGICAL AND USE YOUR BRAINS!It ABSOLUTLY IMPOSSIBLE that there are JUST 367,000 Romanians in USA and 131,000 in Canada! Just between 1990 and 2002 2 millions Romanians emmigrated to USA!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.195.76 (talk • contribs) 30 November 2005

Give some citation to this affirmation and we will be happy to add it on the main page. And pls use some proper language. --Orioane 05:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Two million Romanians immigrated to USA? Are you insane? --Anittas 06:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed vandalism, death treath and bad language by 67.71.189.177 | contribs --Orioane 17:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Who are you to insult us?! Are you thinkin' that you're the boss over here?Well, I'm telling you that YOU have to use your brain!!! NorbertArthur 19:29, 2 December 2005

Oh my God!In Italy there are just 40,000 Romanians?!!On the wikipedia page for Italy it says that there are more than 1 millions Romanians in Italy and in Spain too.Please check this if you want from where I got these informations! NorbertArthur 03 December 2005

Before this gets too far, please remember to cite your sources when adding population figures, citing your sources is important when adding content of just about any kind. In this case I see a lot of claims but no real sources to back them up. That should be the next step, thanks! Rx StrangeLove 05:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Here are a couple places you could start: search for Romanian Scroll down a little. Rx StrangeLove 05:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok than listen! I mentioned my sources very WELL! I got the information that in Italy there are OFFICIALY 400,000 Romanians and UNOFFICIALLY 1,000,000 Romanians on wikipedia's article about ITALY,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy, at DEMOGRAPHICS of Italy.I think that you are logical you could think that it's IMPOSSIBLE 40,000 Romanians in Italy. I did the same thing about the Romanian diaspora in Spain.I'm waiting for anwers! NorbertArthur 4 December 2005

there are one million romanians in Italy

An October 2005 report estimates that 1,061,400 Romanians are living in Italy, constituting 37.2% of 2.8 million immigrants in that country. [1] -- Bonaparte talk & contribs 09:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The Prime Minister S. Berlusconi visiting in 12.10.2005 Romania said that there are at least 600.000 (http://www.guv.ro/presa/afis-doc.php?idpresa=42228&idrubricapresa=&idrubricaprimm=&idtema=&tip=&pag=1&dr=). So I think is correct. -- Bonaparte talk & contribs 09:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Romanians in Canada

At Demographics of Canada, at the major ethnic origins nations,like Italian or Polish. But there they also should be the Romanians, becuase at List of Canadians by ethnicity, they show the same ethnic origins and the numbers of population. In Canada there are 400,000 Romanians ethnic, and there there are nations with lower number at Larger ethnic origins, like Hungarians.I judged that Romanians should be between Norwergians-Canadians and Indo-Canadians.Always when I put Romanians there somebody take it down.Could somebody tell me if I'm right please? Norbert Arthur 11:15 04 December 2005

There is no evidence for your claims, and the Statistics Canada figures specifically contradict them. Please make only properly sourced claims. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

There may be around 1,000,000 romanians in Canada. -- Bonaparte talk 16:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

On what do you base that? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, http://www.romedia.us/target/index.htm has the highest estimate I've ever seen for Canada from an even vaguely credible source, at 400,000. -- Jmabel | [[User

talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 07:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed the 800,000 figure from the Canada line. Stats Canada doesn't have a figure anywhere near that. Please don't put it back without citing an specific estimate. Rx StrangeLove 19:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no way that there is 800.000 Romanians in Canada. In Montreal which is far as I know has the highest Romanian-Canadian population, only 6500 people said they spoke Romanian in 2000. Now emigration was not that high in the years 2000-2005 as it was in the early 90s so I would guess that at most there are 10.000 Romanian speakers in Montreal now. If we consider some people of Romanian origins, then at most there are 15.000 Romanians in this city only. At most I would say Romanians are 150.000, but not more then that.Constantzeanu 20:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

• http://www.micc.gouv.qc.ca/publications/pdf/Rapport_annuel_2004_2005.pdf page 36: 11,569 persons arrived in Quebec from Romania between 2000-2004.
• http://www.micc.gouv.qc.ca/publications/pdf/Immigration_QC_1995-1999.pdf page 12: 4,882 between 1995-1999.

--Vasile 03:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

StatCan site has some data about 2001 census: Quebec 19,445 (17,315 in Montreal), Alberta 20,235 (7,115 in Edmonton), Saskatchewan 10,290 (1,580 in Saskatoon). For 2001, an estimation of 100,000 of Romanians in Canada is a quite reasonable guess. --Vasile 23:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

About Canada, and specifically Montreal having the highest Romanian population. Ontario has a greater Romanian population than Quebec, and more specifically Toronto has more Romanians than Montreal. Toronto has the largest Romanian population in Canada, Montreal is second largest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.229.104 (talk • contribs) 15 Dec 2005

It may be probably but a feeling doesn't count as an official data. --Vasile 05:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Reverting

There's at least a couple editors here that are flirting with breaking WP:3RR. Please read the link I provided, as you can see reverting more than three times during a 24 hour period can result in a block. All this reverting not useful and not very constructive....please work it out here. In the mean time WP:3RR can be enforced by myself or any other admin who notices it.

Can anyone provide links outside of Wikipedia giving definite population figures? I listed a couple sources and I'm sure there are more....let's try and work together and try to raise the level of debate...it's more useful and less stressful :) Rx StrangeLove 19:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

În Franţa şi Spania, diaspora română depăşeşte un milion de persoane

http://www.zf.ro/articole/Patriciu-face-cea-mai-mare-achizitie-din-istoria-Romaniei-75992.html

În Franţa şi Spania, diaspora română depăşeşte un milion de persoane. In France and in Spain the romanian diaspora is more then 1 million persons.-- Bonaparte talk 09:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I do not want to dissapoint you guys, butI am afraid that ZF made an unhappy use of the term diaspora. I think it was better to use just "In Spain and France there are more than 1 mil romanians living". Unlike the U.S. and canada, where I don't know the situation, in Western Europe, the majority of Romanians living here, are not counted as citisens of France, Spain, Italy, Germany etc, because they do not have citisenship, they are counted as Romania Romanians and they have only a Romanian passport, so they are in the 20 mil living at home. --Mihai -^talk 09:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Mihai you are incorrect. I agree with you that romanians that reside in western europe should just be counted in the romanian figure (19.4 mill). I however dissagree with u that there are over 20 million romanians at home. the 19.4 million figure isnt even correct, the true number of ethnic romanians in romania should stand at about 18 million (2002 census). there are about 1.5-2 million rroma in romania, and about 1.6 million hungarians. also about 300-400 thousand people of different nationalities. with the large number of romanians working abroad, i would presume that the number of ethnic romanians in romania would be around 17 million. if anyone thinks differently to this, i would like to hear it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 15 Dec 2005

In Canada shi USA, etnicii romani sunt in numar de peste 1 milion

Puteti va rog sa imi spuneti cand o sa incetati sa modificati aceasta pagina?Nu mai fiti asha ipocriti va rog si fiti realisti. Hai sa vedem: voi spuneti si modificati tot timpul aceasta pagina, ba ca in Usa is 367,000 ba 1,200,000. Canada:in Canada tin sa va anunt ca sunt intre 400,000-800,000 de romani daca vreti sa shtiti cu adevarat. Va rog reveniti-va la normal. Inteleg ca poate in 1990 erau 367,000 de romani in USA, dar santem aproape in 2006. Au trecut 16 ani de atunci. Daca o sa continuati sa modificati si sa daunati aceasta pagina, o sa iau legatura cum Adrian Pingstone ca sa faca ceva. NorbertArthur 10 December 2005

• Please write in English. It is impolite as a minimum. mikka (t) 20:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well first of all you don't say "it is impolite as a minimum". Second of all, if you do not understand take a dictionary and start looking up the words.Constantzeanu 20:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid your attitude hardly improves mutual understanding. It is impolite to speak foreign language in a group of people who don't understand you. mikka (t) 21:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with you. There are more than 1,200,000 in USA and about 1,000,000 in Canada. -- Bonaparte talk 19:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Guys I am sorry but there is no way that there are 1000.000 Romanians in Canada. You are telling me that the Romanian population in Canada is over 3%? That is really out of proportion. In Canada 60% of the population is English, 22% is French, 1% is Native and 17% is the rest(Chinese, Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Jewish, Polish, Ukrainian, etc. etc.) = that's 5.4 mil people.

Now let's take these other minorities one by one. The Italians have entire little Italies in cities like Montreal. The Jewish population has an entire city "Cote-St. Luc" on Montreal Island. The Ukrainian population which numbers maybe 1.2 mil at best is all over Sask. province. The Chinese, Arabs and Greeks are really visible in Toronto and Montreal and Chinese represent like 25% of Vancouver. Many Banks have instructions in Mandarin and Cantonese for the Chinese minority. Now you are telling me that we are as many as these other minorities? Constantzeanu 20:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

All right now Romanian brothers!!!!!!!!!WHEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NO WAY FOR BEING 131,000 ROMANIANS IN CANADA AND 367,000 IN USA! WHAT IS YOUR?Are you rasist against Romania or what?Stop being so insolent my God. I think you are enough intellingent to judge that the Romanian Diaspora contains over 8 millions people and not 2 millions.Where you think that they are gone? In the holly Land?

Thank you Bonaparte for understanding&sustain me! NorbertArthur 10 December 2005

Romanian numbers

Please put your discussion here of the Romanian numbers. Millions in Italy, Spain, US???!?! Please I beg of you all to think about the inclusion of these. Antidote 21:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, all this reverting is getting nowhere. If someone has other sources besides Statistics Canada for the Canadian figures please cite them. As you may or may not know there is a heightened focus on citing sources on Wikipedia so it's more important than ever to have them when adding numbers. Rx StrangeLove 21:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well you have the declaration of prime minister! What do you want more? If the prime minister of Italy said so, what is your problem? By the way user:Antidote uses more suckpoppet accounts. So, Antidote =Rx StrangeLove and others...we all know him.-- Bonaparte talk 21:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh my god. Antidote 23:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think we do need something more than a politician saying so....where did he get those numbers. And even best case, that only explains numbers for Italy. There's plenty more population figures at issue. What we need are original sources for population figures from offical estimates. It's pretty common for a encyclopedia to need these sorts of solid numbers.

As far as the sockpuppet accusation goes, I think this will convince you otherwise. Rx StrangeLove 22:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The figures of millions in Italy in Spain I got them from the WIKIPEDIA's PAGE of Italy and Spain, at their DEMOGRAPHICS, where they said that there are one million Romanians in each.Check if you want! If you are not too stupid and you have some brain between your ears you could think that this is the Romanian diaspora in Italy in Spain. Use your brain if you have one! NorbertArthur 10 December 2005 (UTC)

We need outside sources, referencing ourselves doesn't work as a citation. Like I side above we need official sources...I don't care what the figures are at all...I have no dog in this fight, We just can't have all this reverting going on.

Re: "If you are not too stupid and you have some brain between your ears" please read WP:NPA and WP:CIV, let's keep this civil, deal? Rx StrangeLove 22:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Ooooo yes that's it! You need sources from outside because you cannot accept that what I said is true! That's it ha? Well I gonna tell you that you're just brain retarded that cannot understand and thinks that we are still in the 1980s. NorbertArthur

Nope, "I'm" not telling you anything because I don't believe what you say, it's a Wikipedia guideline, from WP:CITE:

Note that Wikipedia articles should not use other Wikipedia articles as sole sources, nor should other English-language Wikipedia articles be cited as sources. Wikilinks are not a substitute for sources. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability.

This is something editors are expected to be familar with. About the "brain retarded" business, again, please see WP:NPA and WP:CIV. Personal attacks are not really acceptable, dig? Rx StrangeLove 23:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe this quote is a misunderstanding of the whole idea of wikipedia as a whole. I am going to raise the issue at the policy page. Yes, wikipedia should not rely on itself. But it will be even worse if wikipedia articles start contradicting each other. Imagine what a mess it would be and what a layoughing stock we will be. So, Suppose you write an article about Zimbabwe which says that there are only 15 Zimbans in Romania, but Demography of Romania says there are only 9 Zimbans in Romania, it is your duty to fix the Demography of Romania in the first place, because it is the main article for the topic, and this new reference must be added to Demography of Romania in the first place. If this custom be followed, then there should be no problem with "wikipedia articles" as sole sources issue. mikka (t) 03:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

If one of the articles has decent citation and the other does not, of course the cited materialy should be used in both places. If two articles both have citations and disagree on a number, probably both citations should be in both places, and a range should be given. If neither has a citation worth a damn, there is no particular gain in pretending to precision beyond our accuracy. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I see that again cited numbers have been replaced with uncited numbers, and citations have been removed. NorbertArthur appears to have engaged in this behavior repeatedly. In the past, I have tried to defend the article from this by careful reversions and restoration. Sorry, but I've done my share, at least for now. If anyone wishes to start an RfC over NorbertArthur's edits to this page and insults on the talk page, let me know so that I can sign on. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

NO. It is true what Arthur said. If those guys don't accept reliable official sources than what is their problem? I have given official statement of Prime Minister of Italy and still he ignore it. As far as I concern they are insulting us with their lies. And I cann't accept lies. -- Bonaparte talk 09:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes it's very true what I said! Thank you Bonaparte because you're the only one here that thinks logical.These gang of liars and retarded think that we are still in the Middle Age or something like that. I repeat and I will until you gonna accept the true. It's true that the Romanian-Canadians diaspora exceeds 500,000 citizens and those of USA it's near 3 millions. What is your problem with that. Why you cannot accept that this is the true. And what's your problem again with the Romanian community in Italy? I think that you don't know what is Italy and what is the Romanian diaspora there. You have the declaration of the PRIME MINISTER SILVIO BERLUSCONI that in Italy are 1 millions Romanians. What you need anymore? That Berlusconi does a special declaration for you? You have a problem against the Romanians or what a fuck? Don't tell me stupid liars to use a proper language until you will accept the true and don't take off my post because nobody gave you the permission, understand?

NorbertArthur 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Again. There is no wonder that in Italy there are so many Romanians. Italy has about 20% of Romania's Export/Imports activities. It is the number 1 partener country in Romania's commerce. There are cities with very large comunities there. There are current flights every day from all the airports from Romania. It is recognized officially that Romanians integrate themselves very easy in Romania due to the similarity of language. Romanian language is by far the most similar to Italian. Now, having all this said, it's time to calm down a little. You guys stop saying lies that are not covered. This is not the place to state those lies. Official sources have been presented now you should accept this.-- Bonaparte talk 16:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, they are, but most of them are Romanian Citisens only living in Italy, and are counted in Romania, not in Italy. The same fact is true about most Romanians living in Europe. If you want to count them as Italians, then you should decrease them from the number in Romania. We could mabye make a section or a paragraph in which we should say taht there are a great number of Romanians curently working in Western Europe but only a percentage of those are also citisens of the country they reside. And Arthur, realy, please use a proper language. --Mihai -^talk 16:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this a joke? The American upper estimate was just raised by 300,000 people (the original US estimates in itself). Antidote 21:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

This user:Antidote is upset because I signed on his RfC against him. He uses many accounts. Everyone who wants to sign against him is welcomed (Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote).-- Bonaparte talk 22:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks - but you still haven't responded to my statement. Antidote 23:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The article now makes the even more unlikely claim that "There are more than 10,000,000 Romanians abroad". I suspect that even if one counts everyone who is an ethnic Romanian outside of Romania as a "Romanian abroad"—including even those in Moldova(!), Ukraine, etc. who are exactly where they have been for a long time—you still would not reach this figure. But given that "Romanians abroad" does not usually count ethnically Romanian citizens of Moldova, or of other countries, the claim is particularly bizarre: it suggests that over 40% of the population of Romania has left the country and stayed away.

This is cited to "Milioane de români pe drumul emigrarii" from EZ, which makes the highest estimates I've seen anywhere, and its estimates still do not add up to 10 million.

Again, I've given up on editing down these absurdities myself. I would like to see Wikipedia have credible articles about Romania, but I feel that with the increasing degree of organization among the Romanian community here, it is no longer my job to make this sort of edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Question: as these large numbers keep being added as upper ranges to the number of Romanians in Italy, Spain, etc., shouldn't there be a similar lower range added for Romania and/or Moldova, since these people are presumably coming from somewhere? - Jmabel | Talk 00:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, can someone please slap a source on the 1.5 million Romanian American number, otherwise it should be deleted. Antidote 20:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes I have a source if you want it. Here it is said that more than one million Romanians are certainly living is US.

www.romanii.ro/romanii din diaspora/diaspora index.htm

http://ro-am.net/index.php?page=ro-am-communities#Anchor-1.1-49482 Are you happy now??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by NorbertArthur (talk • contribs) 15 Dec 2005

The first thing you given here (in square brackets, like a wiki link) is not well formed, so I can't follow it. Could you try re-typing it the way you meant to?

The second link does make an interesting case for a number as high as 1.2 million. From that source, just so that everyone understands what that number counts (the enumeration is mine):

1. first generation immigrants that came from Romania and declared their ethnic origin as Romanian. # other immigrants of Romanian national minority groups: Armenians, Germans, Gypsies, Hungarians, Jews, and Ukrainians.
2. Romanian speaking population that immigrated to the United States from other countries neighboring Romania, such as Republic of Moldova, Russia, Ukraine and Yugoslavia.
3. second and even some third generation Romanians (they seem to be trying to account for those who would speak Romanian)
4. an estimated number of undocumented aliens
5. Romanian students studying in U.S.
6. Macedo-Romanians

For our purposes, the second group is the most problematic: on the definition used in this article, which is about an ethnicity, these should not count. And the Macedo-Romanians are a bit of a stretch, but since the study says there are only about 5,000, it doesn't really matter. They say they are counting 20,000-25,000 ethnic Armenians, 50,000-60,000 Germans (some in Canada), 10,000-15,000 Roma, 15,000-20,000 Hungarians, 200,000-225,000 Romanian Jews (some in Canada; note that very large number), and 10,000 Bukovina Ukrainians. So, at the most generous, they are saying just under a million ethnic Romanians, not 1.5 million.

This (slightly under a million) is probably a useful high-end number (they would have had a commercial motivation to maximize it) much as the US Census number would be a useful low-end number. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'd said I was staying out of the numbers, but since I took the time to research this one, and no one seems to be responding, I'll take the liberty of editing accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The estimates are fluctuating faster and faster. First it said 1.2 million Romanians in America, than 1.0, now 1.5, etc. etc. Can't you all make up your minds already? Or just plain remove it, since in the long run, it's pointless. Antidote 18:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Some official data plus interpretation I have only just seen the heated discussions about the numbers of Romanians abroad: unsurprisingly, everyone is confused. Here are the results of my recent research, which is in press and not online at this time. They concern only first generation Romanian migrants, as there cannot be any hope of proper data on second generation.

OFFICIAL DATA

Emigrated Romanian population, 1992-2002 (Censuses: my calculations): 900.000 ***

Permanent recorded emigrants 1990-2003 (INS data): 250.000 ***

Romanians in Spain, 2005 (with residence permits:State data): 175.000 ***

Romanians in Italy, 2005 (with residence permits:State data): 249.000 ***

ESTIMATED DATA

IOM sample survey 2005 of Romanians abroad: 850.000 estimate ***

My estimate of temporary emigrants 2005 [ie in addition to permanent emigrants]: 600.000-1m, according to season ***

There is a very large circular migration of Romanians travelling under Schengen rules, mainly to Italy and Spain and working illegally there. Often, they stay only a short period [the legal maximum for tourism is 3 months) otherwise they face penalties from Romania, like passport confiscation. Because of this large flow of Romanians, but much smaller stocks in Italy and Spain, the authorities there think their countries are packed with Romanians! This is not correct, and merely reflects rather old-fashioned understandings of people and migrations.

As fas as the USA is concerned, I do not work on that country and cannot comment easily. However,a figure of more than a few hundred thousand there is implausible as they would clearly be missing from Romania. Also, it is not so easy to immigrate into the USA. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 04:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that these very high numbers (unaccompanied with a decrease from the total) may be due to some blatant nationalism by User:Bonaparte and User:NorbertArthur. Some of their sources probably aren't wrong but they are probably highly misinterpreting them, doubling numbers of Romanians working abroad instead of only including registered citizens. Indeed this entire page is very misleading. If you can, User:MBE, please adjust these statistics to reflect the true stationary citizens of these nations. I have noticed your similar debate on Talk:Spain. Or, even better, if you can provide a source for your official statistics, I will take the liberty of adjusting the population statistics on this page to match those. Antidote 04:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Martin, interesting figures. As per Antidote above, would you happen to know of specific cites to (in particular) European legal/illegal migration figures? The Eurostat and IMO online sources are infuriatingly difficult to search.--cjllw | TALK 05:37, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, Eurostat is something of a joke: it does not compile its own data, and doesn't even try to standardise the national data it uses [unlike OECD]/ It is also completely out of date. So, you need to go to the original national data. For Italy, the residence permit database is at: ISTAT and for Spain at: Permanent Migration Observatory

The data for Romania are not available online in English [maybe they are in Romanian, but I didn't try with that]. In any case, the quality is too poor, and I had to make the calculations myself. Romania is thought to have the worst emigration data anywhere in Europe. If I can put my paper online, you could cite that for the emigration and circular migration data: you need to mention this, and not just the legal permanent residents in Italy and Spain. Hope this helps. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 07:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

look i live in Australia, and romanians from here that go the the USA on holidays, all come back and say that there are over 1 million romanians in the united states. There must be a common theory among the romanian community in america that in fact they do number over 1 million people. Jmabel, could there actually be 1 million romanians (with decendents)? as far as i know romania had a population of 23.5 million in communist times, and in the last census it only registered 21.7 million. that is a loss of around 1.8 million people in the space of 20 years. that sounds a bit strange! i have also heard from many romanians that most emmigrants from romania went to the states after the communism regime brokedown. what i dont understand is that in 2000 367,313 people declared romanian ancestry, but in 1990 365,000 people declared romanian ancestry. there have had to be more than 1800 emmigrants to america from romania between 1990 and 2000. they all fled after 1989. Jmabel i would like to hear your thoughts on this about the number of romanians in america? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.13.194 (talk • contribs) 21 December 2005

ANSWER: According to the US Census 2000, there were 136.000 foreign-born Romanians in the USA. Considering that the USA consists almost entirely of immigrants, it is possible that there is a large ethnic community of Romanians who are really Americans. But they were born in USA, not in Romania, and presumably have US citizenship. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Quick reference to the Israeli number: I stated before that Israeli Romanians do not consider themselves ethnically Romanian (which should pretty much be confirmed by the fact that they moved to Israel - Jewish ethnic homeland). I was ignored. But, if the editors have been paying attention, the former source (now at the bottom) talks about not including the 400,000 or so Israeli Romanians in these numbers. Therefore the Israeli Romanian number here should only include ethnic Romanians who reside in Israel (who apparently, exists). Therefore, I am putting back the old number. Antidote 04:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Some further comments, responses and questions:

• Antidote- when I rearranged and converted the footnote referencing system I tried not to bugger things up, and hopefully the Israel footnote is still in alignment. However, I have not done any further check (beyond the US and Australian ones) to see that the references actually contain the data the article currently says they do, this is an outstanding activity- you'd be most welcome to attend to it.
• User:203.134.13.194- interesting, but your anecdote about holidaying friends is hardly going to be reliable, one can only imagine how such information could be gleaned from personal observation. And, if you would kindly take the trouble to sign your own posts, it's not really that difficult.
• MBE- does your data distinguish between Romanian nationals, and ethnic Romanians (the subject of this particular article)? Also, when you've a reference for the 'circular' movement of working migrant populations within Europe, I think it would be a useful piece of information to include in the article.
• User:Jmabel- Joe, I certainly agree with you about the way the RoAm figures are (wrongly) inflated and that they are arbitrarily combining all and sundry groups to arrive at their 1.2M figure- and indeed I have attempted to describe the basis for their estimate in the text, such as it is. However, if we do maintain the mention of this particular source in the table, should we not keep it aligned with the value they arrive at? Unfortunately they do not supply an explicit number which does not include some element of co-opted data. If we took away from their total all of their figures for strictly non-Romanian groups, would using that new total constitute original research? I could be convinced either way.

--cjllw | TALK 07:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

cjllw- Thanks for the question. Well, I look only at recent migrations, and not at ethnic communities. So I am not able to offer hard data on ethnic Romanians... The problem with this ethnic approach, is that self-identification of ethnicity is paramount. But how do we measure this? Basically, if we go back far enough, we are all descended from migrants, so there has to be some relf-reflexivity and identity involved in the matter. Many sources of data are really rather nationalistic and questionable, but I think the current version of the page does quite a good job of giving different views and sources.

As far as the new circular migrations are concerned, I am trying to negotiate putting my article on the web. Although I hold the copyright, there are diplomatic issues with that... I will notify this page if the articles goes online [it has a lot of data and sources]. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok now!!! Me and Bonaparte we are nationalist??? What's the problem with you guys? I'm just telling the truth! When I wrote that there are 1.5 mil Romanians in USA, I was talking about the all Romanian ethnics: emmigrants, Romanian/American native, people that were born there, Romanian jews and germans... <insult removed>

NorbertArthur 17 December 2005

Norbert, to the best of my knowledge, I've never had sex with your mother, and have certainly never had sex with my own. I will let that sort of remark pass exactly once. If you continue in that vein, I will consider it a personal attack. As for the article-related matter: this is not an article about everyone who lived in Romania or whose ancestors lived in what is now Romania. It is about an ethnicity.

CJLL: I agree that the RoAm figures are a mess, and that we cannot arrive at a single number from them. On the other hand, no matter how you slice it, they are claiming somewhere between 850,000 and 1,000,000 ethnic Romanians in the U.S. Since we are using this as an upper bound in a range, I think the intellectually honest thing to do is to use 1,000,000 as that upper bound, at least until we encounter a better-documented, similar study.

MBE, has your article been published somewhere? We can cite print references, it doesn't need to be on line. If it was published somewhere reputable, that's what counts. Posting it to the web is just a matter of convenience. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm really sorry Jmabel for that and I apologize. I wrote that becausae I was very nervous. I agree with you, but I would believe that there are a little bit more than 1 mil. about 1.1-1.2 mil.

NorbertArthur 22 December 2005

Ok fellows. I want just to tell the big difference between what you said and what it's written on this ,,Wikipedia,,. If I go to the Demographics of Canada or List of Canadians by ethnicity, I gonna find there the large ethnics groups. For example I go to the Irish, these includes Irish that were born in Ireland, born in Canada or descents of the Irish immmigrants that came to North America 200 years ago. Why they do not apply the same think on the Romanian diaspora??? You are all telling me that here you are counting JUST the Romanian immigrants that they were born in Romania. Why not the descents of the Romanian immigrants or the Romanians born in America be counted? All the larger ethnics groups mentioned for USA or Canada count even the people born there or the descents. Why this thing isn't the same for the Romanians? I'm sure that if we gonna count the Romania-born immigrants and the descents of the Romanian emmigrants we gonna OBTAIN a larger figure.

NorbertArthur 23 December 2005

Contribution to humanity

I love the "Contribution to humanity" headline. When I look to the right, I see a photo taken from of a Bucharest club. How am I supposed to interpret that? That we contributed with a nightclub? Why in the name of all goodness is that photo placed there? Why?

And about this photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rmn2.JPG

Don't you think you should say who those people are? Okay, most would recognize Dracula, but the rest? --Anittas 00:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Judging from here Victor Babeş, the third image looks liek a colored Victor Babes. I have no clude who the second or last one is though. Antidote 20:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The second is a self-portrait of Nicolae Grigorescu. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I know who the first three are, but not who the last one is; but most people wouldn't know who most of them are. --Anittas 21:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who the last one is either. It looks to me like Ion Luca Caragiale, but I wouldn't want to bet on it. If it is, it's not a picture of him that we use in our article on him. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's Caragiale. Confirmed by a Google image search. Here it is: [2]. I'll add these idenfications to the image page. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes you're right Joe. He is Ion Luca Caragiale. Bonaparte talk 21:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

(This comment is not addressed to any individual in particular, but...) Please remember this the next time you are inclined to tell me that as a foreigner who only lived six months in Romania I can't possibly know much about the country or its culture. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

:::::::: That's a BS comment, because it sure is directed at someone. And at whom? I don't remember saying that to you. I don't know what your damn problem is, but I say you should chill. No one has any issues with you, but you keep searching for arguments. --Anittas 21:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, Anittas, for a guy who recently lectured me about presuming good faith, that was quite a leap! No, you never accused me of this, so why on earth would you think it was directed at you? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. Perhaps because you seem a bit unconsistent in your arguments with me. First you retract your RfC, then you make some sarcastic comment on the discussion page.. pigs can fly, or something. I don't know where I have any anymore, but I still don't have any issues with you. --Anittas 22:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I retracted my claim that the specific remark was anti-Semitic, and am accepting your word that it was not intended as such. That doesn't mean that I generally like the way you address other people on talk pages. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

:) you did check the google ...You seem more integrated in Romanian culture as other real romanians. I woudn't call you foreigner as far as I can see now. Bonaparte talk 21:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

How many americans there are?

I wanted to answer to my question and when I went to the page Americans I was redirected to USA.

Now if I want to see how many americans are I see there the total population of the State: United States of America. When I look to the Romanians I see only 19,000,000 even if the total population of Romania is around 22,000,000. Now, how come that for USA is one rule and for Romania another? It's not fair. For USA do you count all that have a valid US passport right? Oh yeah. It's enough to have US passport and you're american. And don't forget how many Romanians renounced in paper to their romanian citizenship for the new one American.

Now, how do you want to compute the number of Americans? or for French people? I am very interested.

The same principle you have there you should apply also for Romania. Have fun. Bonaparte talk 16:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree what you said, Bonaparte, because when it's something about Romania or Romanians, always that think is marginalized, because everybody in thinks that Romanians are all a gang of thieves and treachers, and for that always do not mention something good about. Oh yes, I wanted to tell that it is written that 19 mil. Romanians live in Romania, because Romania has a lot of minority groups, just the Hungarians being 2 1.5-2 mil. Thanks for posting this! NorbertArthur 22 December 2005

Bonaparte and norbert arthur, there is no way that there are 1 million romanians in canada. Both of you have no idea what yous are talking about. before you post anymore rubbish, please find reliable sources, because it is a hassle for everyone else, to argue about romanian numbers in canada and america with both of you. if both of you believe that there are 3 million romanians in america and 1 million in canada, then thats fine, but please dont write anything like that on this article, without a source (census or an estimation by an organisation). concerning the number of romanians in canada, i wouldnt venture a guess higher than 200,000. there are probably around 200,000 romanians in canada with decendents. The number in america is probably close to 1 million ethnic romanians, with 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd generation romanians. however it has been said that there are 1.1-1.2 million romanians which could also be true, because there probably are romanian rroma and other minoroties that came from romania such as germans, hungarians, which are not ethnically romanian, but state romanian ancestry. (203.134.111.194 05:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC))

Now before you tell me how many romanians are, I just asked a question how many Americans there are and how is that number computed??? I know that they compute all the people who has a valid US passport. Is this true or not? -- Bonaparte talk 07:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Bonaparte, yes they do compute all the people with a valid U.S passport. Im just wondering, do you speak english natively? because it doesnt sound like it. are u a romanian from romania? BaNaTeaN (203.134.111.194 10:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC))

Well you see Bănăţeanule! Since they compute the number of Americans after the number of valid US passport users we should count in the same manner. I don't like double standards. The one that is applied to US should be also used here. Bonaparte talk 11:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Do not tell anything to Bonaparte! He is a Besarabian from Moldova and he has the right to post anything here. About this stupid war that was made here, I think that we are right, even if we don't have sources for the moment. I agree with you that there is no way to be 1 mil Romanians in Canada, but at least there are 400,000 because just in Montreal is estimated to be close to 90,000 Romanians. I gonna find you some sources. NorbertArthur 23 December 2005

Bad statistics

It is necessary for Users Bonaparte and NorbertArthur to undestand the difference between official statistics, scientific estimates and uncorroborated opinions expressed by politicians and/or newspapers. The first two are acceptable but different sources of data: the last is an opinion and not worth hearing. I do not care, nor does anyone in Italy, what the idiot Berlusconi has to say on anything. Kindly confine your sources to proper records of reality. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 01:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well Martin, you did not answer to my question above. How is it computed the number of americans? Is it that they count all the valid persons who have an US citizenship, US passport? Bonaparte talk 07:39, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The U.S. census attempts to count the number of people who live in the United States on a given day, regardless of citizenship. It also provides an estimate on the number of citizens, but that is trickier because it does not involve a comparably systematic count of citizens living abroad. Passport is beside the point: most Americans don't have a passport. In any event, counting Americans is a very different proposition than counting Romanians in the sense of this article. "American" is not an ethnicity. One either is or is not an American citizen. Counting members of an ethnicity is always more difficult, because there is ambiguity as to who is counted. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well Joe, thank you for your answer. It's exactly my point where I wanted to lead you. So, as I told you before I don't like double standards. Either we adopt the same rule for all either we make a redirect link as in the case of Americans. The comparison with the passport is that any person who has an american passport is considered american. Now, any person who has romanian passport is considered romanian. The same rule. Bonaparte talk 09:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, this is an article about an ethnicity. If we are talking "Romanian" as a citizenship, then there is no reason for an article separate from Romania, which counts a population on precisely that basis. In that sense, Moldovans don't count as Romanian, Aromanians certainly don't count as Romanian, etc. Conversely, Hungarians in Transylvania and Turks and Bulgarians near Constanţa do. -- Jmabel | Talk 10:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well in that case you should state as Romanian people like in the French people. Romanians are also the citizens who have citizenship of Romania as in the case of USA, France etc. Bonaparte talk 11:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The title here is parallel to Germans, Russians, Magyars, Serbs, and Croats. Other ethnicities are differently titled: Jew, singular, which I think was a poor choice; Hmong and Han Chinese, which can be singular or plural; French people as you point out, Swedish people, Vietnamese people. If there is a consensus to move this to Romanian people I have no problem with that, but the subject of the article is the ethnic group. We already have an article on Romania, and another on Demographics of Romania. Both of those point here to refer to the ethnic group. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Bonaparte : ALL censuses everywhere in the world are interested to count EVERYONE who is on their territory on a particular day. For information on how many people hold a particular passport there is no single datasource, and you are usually reliant upon academic work to come up with numbers. As far as using the rule of "Romanians are those who hold a Romanian passport" is concerned, this will reduce the numbers! First, many people who self-identify as ethnically Romanian do not hold Romanian citizenship. Secondly, many who do hold Romanian passports also hold other passports, and we cannot count them twice -- so, what are they? Thirdly, data on nationality are easier to acquire than on ethnicity, and this article is not about nationality. But one thing is certain, if you limit the discussion to those with Romanian passports it will not be anywhere near the figure of 30m people. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you Martin! Bonaparte and norbert arthur do not use sources or scientific estimates. i think we should leave the romanian article the way at is. 25 million ethnic romanians is a good compromise. some say inbetween 24-25, and others say in between 25-26 million. Leaving it at 25 million is a good compromise. the 30 million that norbert arthur and bonaparte stated are way off. (BaNaTeaN 203.134.111.194 04:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC))

You will never can stop me posting here! I post what is true and if you don't like the truth, is your problem, but me I no. It's true that me and Bonaparte does not have any scientific sources for the moment, but we are thiniking logically, because there's no way to be just 367,000 Romanians USA and 131,000 in Canada. I'm telling that because I live in Montreal and I know what is the Romanian diaspora there. If you want to know there are just 3 Romanian newspaper printed daily, 2 radio post and Romanian TV emission, just in Montreal! If you want I can give you an example. I gave it almost the same at the chapter ,,Romanian numbers,, , but nobody had the courage to ask this to me because they're to afraid that I'm right. Let's go to the Wikipedia's page for Hungarians. You gonna see there that Romania has the largest Hungarian ethnic group after Hungary. There is written 1.4 mil Hungarians are living in Romania, but 98% are born in Romania and their citizenship is Romanian. Almost nobody has the Hungarian citizenship, but they are counted like Hungrains. Why this thing cannot apply on the Romanians? Why??? Explain me if you are so reasonable!

NorbertArthur 24 December 2005

You're right. I can't stop you posting. Or editing. I think content like what you added in this edit damages the credibility of Wikipedia; it certainly damages the credibility of the article with anyone familiar with the topic. When people from a particular ethnic group add this sort of thing to the article on that group, it tends to make an entire ethnicity look like foolish adolescents who puff themselves up thinking people will believe they're really, really strong. But you know what? For now I've stopped caring. I'll take this off my watchlist for a while, and work on articles whose active editors are trying to turn them into encyclopedia articles, not transparently crude propaganda tools.

Credibility it has Prime Minister of Italy, so when he said that there are 1,000,000 romanians that's it. Don't invent other arguments. [3] and there it's stated the opinion of a official. As far as I see you are not an Official Joe. -- Bonaparte talk 08:14, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I sincerely hope some Romanians will step in and fix some of this. On the other hand, I guess I'll be perversely amused if I come back in a month and see that the article now claims 35 million Romanians including the entire population of Madrid. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:07, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

An aspect that might be mention in the article is the fact that the former Communist regime, imposed by Soviet Union after 1944, severed all the ties with the Romanians abroad and with those living in the Soviet republics or Hungary. (That was insane, I agree with the below comment.) On the other hand, it could objectively difficult to have an exact estimation of the originating ethnic Romanians in US or Canada, as the Romanian archives were confiscated by the Red Army. --Vasile 06:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I know. The first time I came to this page, it said there were 24 million Romanians. Then it said 25 million. Now it's 30 million. This is insane. Antidote

You made several edits controversial also on Bulgarians, Serbs, and so on ...So stop it Antidote. I have given the source for 10,000,000 romanians abroad, 1,000,000 romanians in Italy and so on. It's hard for you to accept that you're wrong that's it. Bonaparte talk 08:14, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

My edits on Bulgarians and Serbs were controversial because some of the people editing on those pages were having problems with WP:OWN and bad statistics, similar to this page. The Serbs dispute has been resolved nicely, but the Bulgarians one is still going on. If you wish to help end the Bulgarians dispute, then that would help helpful. We need a third opinion on some inclusion of statistics (which you seem to be very proficient at collecting). Anyway, about this page. I never said you didn't give sources or that your sources are necessarily wrong (they might be but I don't know) but there's enough evidence for me to believe you are misinterpreting your sources and may have some unwitting bias pushing you to believe them to be true. Antidote

Did you asked to my question? Why the just Romanians that are born in Romania and have the Romanian citizenship are counted while to the others ethnic groups is not apply the same thing? WHY? WHY? WHY AND WHY? I suppose that you are too afraid that I'm right

NorbertArthur 25 December 2005

Bonaparte: I have already explained to you that both the number and the source of data on Italy are not good enough. Please accept a professional opinion on this: I have not interest in what the actual numbers of Romanians in the world might be, only on how you use the available information.

Norbert: yes, this article is about Romanian ethnicity and should include all those people who self-identify as Romanian and live outside Romania. If you provide proper data sources, I am sure that everyone here will accept your data. However, as with Bonaparte, there are problems with the data. Neither of you has the right to just change information in the page when the discussion here is ongoing. All that you do with such actions is discredit Wikipedia by making it unreliable and with constantly changing information. Think about this next time you make your changes.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 09:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

to martin baldwin-edwards, this whole disscussion on ethnic romanians has really confused me. the numbers that are being brought forward here by Bonaparte and Norbert Arthur are really out of proportion. You seem like a well informed person, so how many ethnic romanians do you think live in the world today? (BaNaTeaN 13:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC))

10,000,000 romanians abroad

Fact is that there are 10,000,000 romanians abroad. BuCuReStiAn

Who the **** does not belive this fact? Bring arguments HA-HA, LOL BuCuReStiAn

I have the best argument. I cannot say anything that I perfectly agree with you! Why all this people cannot understand the impossibility of JUST 367,000 Romanian in USA and 131,000 in Canada. Where are the others gone? In the Holy Land, in the skies or they are ALREADY all deads????

NorbertArthur 25 Decemeber 2005

Romanians

According to the romanian embassy in USA http://www.roembus.org/weblinks/Romania/People%20and%20Religions.htm Estimates put the number of Romanians living abroad somewhere between eight and ten million persons. Bonaparte &amp;lt;/font> talk 15:45, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Though it is certainly not possible to keep an accurate record concerning the Romanians abroad, estimates put their number somewhere between 8 and 10 million persons. http://www.itcnet.ro/folk_festival/people.htm + http://www.hotnews.ro/articol_21456-Romanii-din-diaspora-sedusi-si-abandonati.htm

Dynamics of the population in the prezent day territory of the country

Ancient Dacia ca. 1,0 millions

Romanian countries in:

1600 ca. 2.2 millions

1859 ca. 8.6 millions

1912 ca. 12.9 millions

1930 ca. 14.2 millions

1948 ca. 17.4 millions

1977 ca. 21.5 millions

1999 ca. 22.4 millions

in Bulgaria: [[4]] in Bulgaria live aprox. 125.000 - 150.000 Romanians.

in Ukraine: [[5]] The former Soviet regime still uses, unfortunately, the artificial division created before 1990, that accredited the idea that in Ukraine exist two different nations: the Romanian and the “Moldavians”. Nowadays, the official statistics shows that in Ukraine exist 324.500 “Moldavians” and 134.800 Romanians. Adding this two officials data, results that the Romanian community represents the third minority group from Ukraine, after Ukrainians and Russians. On the other hand, the Romanian cultural organizations from Ukraine are estimating up to 800.000 the number of the Romanian community.

in Hungary:27.000-30.000 Romanians [[6]]

in Vojividina:[[7]] 42.331 Romanians in Yugoslavia, 38.832 live in Vojvodina (1,93% of the entire population of Vojvodina)

The Romanians in east Serbia The Romanian (vlach) ethnic element is concentrated mostly in the region limited by Morava River (west), Danube River (north) and Timoc (south-eastern). According to the sources from the Romanian community, the Romanians (Vlachs) live in 134 villages (exclusively with Romanian population) and in 20 towns (with mixed population - Zaicear, Negotin. Bor, Kadovo, Majdanpek, Pojarevat, Jabucovat etc.) These results are inferior to the real number indicated by the leaders of the Romanian/Vlachs minority. They appreciate that only in Timoc Valley live 400.000 Romanians concentrated in 130 medium and small places and 20 towns.

Romanians in Albania The Aromanian associations appreciate that in Albania live 400.000 Aromanians, which situates this minority group as the biggest ethnic minority.

ROMANIANS IN MACEDONIA The Aromanian associations from FYROM estimate that in this country are 150.000 Aromanians. Official data - the census from 1991 - registered only 7.764 Vlachs (Aromanians), but this number in inferior to the real one.

• References: Textul de fata este preluat din lucrarea « Romanii din jurul Romaniei » coordonata de prof. Dr. Doc. Ion Gherman, Ed. Vremea, Bucuresti 2003

---

The total number of Romanians living in the United States in 2002 is estimated to be 1,200,000, even though the 1990 U.S. Census data reveals less than half of this number. http://www.ro-am.net/index.php?page=ro-am-communities

Macedo-Romanians from Balcanic Countries

Macedo-Romanians, also called Aromanians or Vlachs, live mostly in Albania, but also in Greece and Macedonia. In addition, they have lived in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria for over 2,000 years. Their history goes back to the First and Second Centuries A.D., when the Roman Empire included the territories of today’s Romania and neighboring Balcanic countries. It is estimated that there are about 600,000 to 700,000 Macedo-Romanians in the above mentioned countries. They know the Romanian language, but they also use their own dialect consisting of many archaisms, characteristic regional expressions and foreign influences. Macedo-Romanians consider themselves Romanian, and belong to the same Eastern Orthodox Church. In the United States, there are about 5,000 Macedo-Romanians, settled mostly in the states of Connecticut, New York, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Missouri.

Romanian Jews

Romanian Jews started arriving in America in the first half of the 19th century. Mass migration increased in the 1880s and at the turn of the century, because of discriminatory legislation. By the 1930s, over 130,000 Romanian Jews were in the United States. The flow of the immigration resumed after World War II, with the arrival of thousands of victims of the Holocaust or refugees fleeing the Communist regime in Romania. Some came via Israel. Presently, there are about 200,000-225,000 Romanian Jews in both America and Canada, mostly living in New York, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Philadelphia, and Washington DC.

References: WERSTMAN, Vladimir F., Romanians in the United States and Canada - A Guide to Ancestry and Heritage Research North Salt Lake, Utah: HeritageQuest, 2002

Conclusions

There are more than 10,000,000 romanians abroad. -- Bonaparte talk 08:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Bonaparte, not all macedo-romanians consider themselves romanian. there are macedo-romanians that consider themselves Greek as well. the majority of macedo-romanians consider themselves (aromanians), and they have closer ties with the countries that they live in. You can not count macedo-romanians as romanians, because they are not "romanian", and the majority of them in greece, albania, and macedonia do not consider themselves "Romanian". However, i am not sure about the macedo-romanians in Serbia. (BaNaTeaN 13:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC))

10,000,000 romanians abroad + 20,000,000 in Romania = 30,000,000 romanians worldwide. BaNaTeaN are you of hungarian minority from Romania who emigrated in Australia? BuCuReStiAn

I dont know what my nationality has to do with it, but NO. I was born in Australia, and my parents are ETHNIC ROMANIAN. are you rally out of your head! how can there be 20 million romanians in romania, if only 19.4 million said they were romanian in the 2002 census. And where does the 10 million in the world come from. show me a source you idiot. we are all sick of arguing with people like you and Bonaparte and Norbert Arthur. You people show no source. if you provide a source, ill be glad to acknowledge youre remark. But in the meen time, dont post nationalistic crap. (BaNaTeaN 14:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC))

You said here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARomanians&diff=27409416&oldid=27203224 that more than 2,5 million romanians emmigrated. So, 2,5 millions romanians were not in Romania at the time of Census in 2001. Do you think that they are gone? BuCuReStiAn Who is idiot, we or you? It is not nationalistic crap - it is the reality. 10,000,000 romanians abroad + 20,000,000 in Romania = 30,000,000 romanians worldwide.BuCuReStiAn

Listen Bucurestian! 2.5 million romanians left. of which a great number were of minorities in romania, such as gypsies, hungarians, germans, jews. Romanians in romania in 1992 out of a population of 22.8 mill were probably at maximum 18 million. learn some proper english you idiot. there, i have spread out the infromation so you can understand more clearly.

<insult removed> All the articles here about the ethnic groups that have a big diaspora, like Poles, Germans or Italians accept that their country diaspora has a large number of people abroad. Just us we cannot accept it! WOW!!!!! This is so intelligent!Oh yeah and what's your probelm again with Bonaparte? I'm wondering if you even know were Romania is situated, because what you wrote here even you you don't believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NorbertArthur 25 December 2005

<insult removed> ethnic groups such as germans, poles, and italians accept that their diaspora is big, because in the american census, 15 million said they were italian, 9 million said they were polish, and 42 million said they were german. If you could read ENGLISH, you probably would of saw this. romanian was reported by 367,313 people, however i believe the romanian people in america are about 1 million ethnics, which would mean that there are probably more than 15 million italians, more than 9 million polish, and more than 42 million germans in america as well. wat are all these stupid claims about 1 million romanians in Italy and 500- 1mill in spain. Im not saying that they are wrong, but if you count these people you also have to subtract the number of romanians from romania, because they are all citizens of romania, and they are counted in romania not spain and italy. before this whole working abroad phonemonon happened in Romania, the romanians in italy were about 40,000 , and in spain there were around 10,000 probably. now you are making stupid claims here on wikipedia that in fact there are minimum 500,000 romanians in spain, and 1 million in italy. You may be correct, but you dont acknowledge that the number of romanians from romania should decrease then. Why do you keep posting here, cant you see that none of the users here accept your thoughts on this issue about ethnic romanians. Listen mate, before you bad mouth JMABEL, i think you should know that he is much more accepted on this article than you and BONAPARTE, because unlike some people, he provides sources for his numbers. Your stupid 30 million ethnic romanian claim is useless here, go and find some othere encyclopedia and post your fucked-up results there. ethnic romanians in the world probably around 24-25 million. (BaNaTeaN 00:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

Macar de v-ati injura pe romaneste, in spiritul confruntarilor intre baieti, traditionale in aceasta perioada a anului. --Vasile 00:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is out of control

Everyone: please try to be polite, even when you disagree strongly. No progress can be made with personal attacks and prejudices. In the [slight] hope that some agreement can be reached, I will make the following points:

(1) I am not able to comment on the number of Romanian diaspora generally: I work on immigration into southern Europe, and more recently on migrations and Romania.

(2) Data on ethnicity such as the links Bonaparte provided need to be used, because the Romanians abroad are mainly the result of older migrations. But, I understood Aromanian as being distinct from Romanian. Am I wrong? Someone please comment.

The Aromanian culture would have been a very interesting subject of study one hundred years ago, especially in Greece and Bulgaria. After the gain of the independence of 1877, various Romanian governments tried to ensure to Aromanians a cultural Roman ancestry survival.

"Bulgăroi cu ceafa groasă, grecotei cu nas subţire;
Toate mutrele acestea sunt pretinse de roman,
Toată greco-bulgărimea e nepoata lui Traian!"
(Mihai Eminescu, Scrisoarea III)

From that moment, they could not being considered totally disconnected from the Romanians. New states appeared on the Europe's map and they lived in very difficult political conditions as they were located between Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece. The Aromanians have been culturally asimilated in a quiet manner after the WWII. A number of them found a refuge in Romania after the coup of 1967, but they were considered being "Greeks", as they remembered only some Aromanian (Macedo-Romanian) origin alhough they don't speak the Aromanian. --Vasile 02:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

(3) THe difference between the 1991 and 2001 Censuses shows some 800-900.000 people had left Romania. I don't know what this figure of 2,5 million cited by some people is about: it means nothing to me. Of those who left, many were ethnic Germans and Hungarians, also some Jewish. Those people should not be counted in this article.

(4) Ethnic Romanians, from what I know, have since 1991 not left Romania in large numbers, but they have gone to Italy and Spain as "circular migrants". This means that they are recorded as living in Romania, even thought they also have a presence in Italy and Spain. This is why it is acceptable to use only the residence permit data from southern Europe, to avoid double counting and other overcounting. Even with the permit data I put on the page, there is the possibility of doublecounting as there is no guarantee that those people are not also registered in Romania.

(5) THe big "unknown" is the number of ethnic Romanians from older migrations, and their descendants. If we have reliable data for that, then they can be integrated with the information already provided. I havent yet checked out all the links provided by Bonaparte, and may not be able to find time to do so. But that is the procedure I recommend.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 01:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

good thourogh analysis, but can you answer my question Martin on the number of romanians in the world today. what estimation would you be leaning towards, when all decendents are counted? (c 01:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN I cannot answer your question without doing the research. It needs a lot of work, which also explains why everyone is fighting about this issue... If I have understood the reply above by [User:Vasile|Vasile] the Aromanians should not be counted as ethnic Romanians these days, and so should be removed from the data supplied by Bonaparte. But even with this simplification, the calculations are not easy. I will see if I can find the time to look, though. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks martin! i will be waiting to hear from you.

Rx strangelove, im deleting the uncertainty section on the article, because that was written, when an annonymous user stated that there were 30 million romanians in the world. As you can see at the top it says that 30 million romanians, have romanian as mother tongue. 30 million was then also written in the side bar. now that 25 million has been agreed, i am deleting that paragraph, because it is misleading people that come onto wikipedia. thanks for understanding! (BaNaTeaN 08:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN, I've restored that "uncertainty section", which I wrote. It was not written as a counter to any particular estimate or number which has appeared here, but rather to provide some context and background to the reader on the (lack of) precision associated with these numbers. On the contrary, I think it would be misleading not to contain such a passage- given that these numbers have been highly volatile, the otherwise bewildered reader would need to be shown from where this uncertainty derives, and details of how such numbers are arrived at, so that they can make their own judgement as to their accuracy. I believe the passage fairly goes into the detail and uncertainty behind both the "official" and "unofficial" calculations.--cjllw | TALK 01:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Civility

NorbertArthur and BaNaTeaN, let me remind you of the official Wikipedia policy on Civility and especially the "No personal attacks" part. bogdan 10:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This is just to inform you that after a particularly nasty encounter with a Greek on "Greeks" I am walking away from Wikipedia. You can read the discussion there if you want to know why. My apologies to BaNaTeaN and others who asked for my help. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry Martin that you left Wikipedia. -- Bonaparte talk 07:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I can only resonate that sentiment; I've been around for couple of years. While I find some aspects of folksonomy and open source fascinating, incidents like these make it appear truly deplorable.

I've been involved with the Mozilla project since its early days in 1998 and its progress was truly glacial, partially because of its organization, internal dynamics and quality problems. The recent popular success of Firefox goes back to the spirited action of a small group of highly gifted individuals.

Wikipedia reminds me in some aspects of this dynamics and although they have done a fantastic job to attract, harness and motivate scores of editors, it seems that they have a few things about retention and quality management to learn ;-)

You've mentioned that you would like to bring this incident and your concerns about certain aspects of Wikipedia to the attention of Jimbo Wales. I'd urge you to do so -- I believe there are some truly enlightened minds on Wikipedia. I could also wholeheartedly recommend User:Grace Note as a good point of contact. Best Jbetak 07:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Romanian diaspora negociations

Ok Romanian fellows. I think this dispute should end because this does not serve at nothing. You don't accept my figures, I don't accept yours. What you would said to put neutral true figures. For example at Canada's Romanian diaspora, we can write the official figure (131,000) and put an estimation after. For Canada I propose 131,000-400,000. 400,000 is just an estimation. At USA, we let there 367,000 Romanians, and we put an estimate of 1.2 mil, how it was before and how it is said in the Romanian diaspora sites. I'm waiting for answers! NorbertArthur 28 December 2005

Norbert, while your change to a more conciliatory tone is welcome, it is no more than what has been repeatedly called for here these past couple of months. If you wish to be taken seriously, I hope that you also explicitly undertake not to make any further uncivil and inflammatory comments, the like of which has already driven at least one valuable contributor away.

As for that 1.2mil RoAm figure, as discussed above they have explicitly included other ethnic designations in that figure- to use it alone as an estimate would be misleading- or at least a distortion of what this Romanians article defines as Romanian ethnicity. The figure and its composition is already discussed anyway in the text. And as for the "ten million Romanians in diaspora" figure, if you look at the presentation available at the US Romanian embassy site, you will see that this includes 4 million in Moldva, for starters. If any of these estimates are to be included, it needs to be explained just what it is that they are estimating- none of the various estimates from these sources put forward consist only of ethnic Romanians, and many do not distinguish between Romanian nationality and Romanian ethnicity. This article is about the latter, as Joe mentions earlier, the demographics of Romania article is for the former.--cjllw | TALK 02:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

There are 8-10,000,000 romanians abroad. That's all. I have given sources. This must be added to the text also. Bonaparte talk 07:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey where did the 150,000 romanians in England come from? And sorry Rx strangelove, for not discussing the info with everyone else before deleting it. (BaNaTeaN 00:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC))

Romanians from Timoc: 500,000

http://www.lumeam.ro/nr11_2002/romanii_timoceni.html

"According to some recent researches done by vlachs (romanian) specialists from that area, it is estimated that currently this population reached 500,000 people". The Timoc valley is formed by 300 villages and 20 cities (Bor, Negotin, Kladovo, Maidanpek, Pozarevat, Zaicear, Kucevo, Zagubita, Loznita, Donji, Milanovat, Bolievat, Petrovat etc). -- Bonaparte talk 15:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Leave the article the way it is, stop reverting the numbers. i have just fixed up the article, so dont change the numbers again. get it through your head who ever is reverting, if u add 1 million in italy, then u have to minus 1 million from romania. And in Israel it clearly says at the bottom of the page that the figure does not include 450,000 Jews. Jmabel, if u are still around, please come back, we need your help with all this vandalism. Antidote, see if you can block the persons IP. (203.134.111.194 21:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC))

What a fuck are you to block somebody??? You dick sucker, do you not accept agaaaaain that there are 7 millions Romanians abroad, because you mind of son of bitch is to reduced to understand this thing! Fuck you whole family, idiot asshole!!!

NorbertArthur 8 January 2006

Norbert Arthur if there are 7 million romanians abroad, show me a list of the number of romanians in each country. by the way: aromanians are not romanians. (BaNaTeaN 22:41, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

Norbert Arthur, its not that i dont believe you, but untill you have a source no one is going to believe you. anyway, i was just wondering if you know the range of how many illegal romanians resided in western europe, before the working abroad phenomenen started. If you could give me a range it would help a lot. Sorry about talking bad to you a couple of weeks a go. I didnt mean it, i was a bit nervous. theres no point of us arguing, we are both romanians, we have to work together on this article. (BaNaTeaN 22:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

Ok Romanians fellows! I really apreciated that you're more educated than me and you don't use bad words like I did! BaNaTeaN, I don't have a source for the moment, because the websites that I look, it's always written 367,000 Romanians in USA. I understand that there are 367,000 Romanians legally there, but I cannot accept that we don't write the other Romanians ethnic (illegaly, American born or people with twice citizenship, Romanian American). At every ethnic group when I look to their diaspora, there is counted the all the people that make part of that ethnic group (ex. Poles), and bye the way, me I never counted Aromanians ro Megleno-Romanians as a part of the Romanian ethnic group.

NorbertArthur 10 January 2006

Ok thanks anyway norbert arthur. I agree with you that there are probably 1.1 million ethnic romanians in america, and around 200-300 thousand in canada. Its just that people here on wikipedia just want real sources, or a census. Norbert arthur, i live in Australia and we have recently put in the romanian channel here in Australia, and on it, it says that the romanians in america are over 1 million, and in canada are around 300,000. In Australia our community is estimated at around 40-50,000 people, but this includes greeks from romania, gypsies from romania, and hungarians from romania. Ethnic romanians in Australia are estimated at around 35,000. Norbert Arthur before the working abroad started in romania do you know how many legal romanians and illegal romanians lived in western Europe, i think the working abroad started in 2002. (BaNaTeaN 21:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC))

About what you said BaNaTeaN, I cannot say anything that you are right. In all censuses that I looked is marked the same thing. I agree with you that the big majority of Romanians in Italy or Spain are illegaly there, but why we can't write the official figures and make an estimation of the all Romanians? In Canada me I think that there are 300,000-400,000 Romanians. Anyway, here in Canada we gonna have a census this year and we gonna see the evolution of the numbers.

Regards, NorbertArthur 11 January 2006

Norbert Arthur, i agree with you. we should abe allowed to write the official figures, but if we do all the other wikipedians are going to complain because they do not believe us. We are having a census this year in australia as well, so we will see wat the number is, but anyway there are probably 40-50,000 here in australia. I have never been to canada but i have relatives there, and i heard that in canada there is around 400,000 romanians from someone here that visited Canada. These people only want census results, but they do not understand that a lot of romanians define themselves as canadians in the census. i heard of a place called kitchener. Norbert Arthur, how many romanians are there in Kitchener? regards (BaNaTeaN 23:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN, in Kitchener I don't know the Romanian population, because I'm living in Montreal. What I can tell you about, I know that in Montreal there are officially 60,000 Romanians and the number is estimated to be around 90,000. Here the Romanian diaspora is very recognised. We have 1 television channel, two newspapers, one daily and one weekly and one radio post. We even have a square decated to Romania with the statue of Eminescu. In Toronto I know just that there are more than in Montreal. About the cenususes, I didn't knew you gonna have a census in Australia this year. I can't wait to see it. Canada and Australia is OK, because we gonna see the evolution of the Romanian emmigration, but how about USA? Their next census will take place in 2010! I'm happy that we ended the dispute and we became friends! NorbertArthur 12 January 2006

OK, and let us hope that this civil tone continues, we shall all go much further without the distraction of traded insults. BaNaTeaN and Norbert, certainly official data such as censuses and professional migration organisations are the prime citable sources, but this is not actually to discount out of hand data from other sources, such as the RoAm organisation. All that is being asked of here is that due consideration be given as to the knowledgeability or reliability of the estimating source, and that care is taken to annotate what is actually being included or excluded in these estimates. We also need to acknowledge the imprecision of these estimates, rather than uncritically accepting any given one as "the figure". If, as has been happening, we continue to present numbers as bald fact, rather than the guesstimates they actually are, we shall be doing our readers a disservice.

Naturally enough each number needs a credible cite, annotated as appropriate if there is some doubt as to who is actually being counted, or how this count was arrived at. Not every number here is counting or estimating the same thing. I'm not saying that we uncritically accept census data either, these too need to be annotated as to what they actually represent and if there is any identifiable or known imprecision.

As things stand now, while the numbers are generally more in line with what the citations say than has been the case in some past versions, there's still a bit of work left to do to validate and correctly annotate some of these figures. The footnotes are also a little out of whack. We should firstly turn our attention to ensuring each presented number in fact has a footnote with a link to a source which actually says that number. --cjllw | TALK 23:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah im happy that we became friends as well Norbert Arthur. I can tell you that in America there are over 1 million ethnic romanians. New york has about 200,000 romanians by itself and california has about 160,000. In Australia the most romanians live in Melbourne (14-15,000). Melbourne is the most southern european city in the world. Here in Melbourne, greeks, italians, serbs, croats, turks, and romanians outnumber the Australians and english people. Its a south eastern european city. How is Montreal? Does the romanian community in Montreal have romanian clubs and restaurants? (BaNaTeaN 03:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC))

BaNaTean, Thanks for understanding what I meant. Yes, me too I think that there are 1 million Romanians, but I didn't knew for New York, 200,000 I think is the most right figure. But do you refer at New York City or New York State? In Montreal, there are 7 romanian stores that I know and one supermarket, 4 Romanian-language schools and 6 churches (5 Orthodox, 1 Catholic) and there are just 3 Romanians restuarants, so is a very big Romanian community here. How about Melbourne? How is the Romanians community there? Churches, restaurants, stores? NorbertArthur 13 January 2006

Yeah norbert arthur in New York State there are over 200,000 romanians. The romanian community in melbourne is very good. the romanians here have 2 restaurants, a soccer club, 1 disco club in the most expensive area in melbourne, 9 churches (2 orthodox, 4 baptist, 2 pentecostal, 1 adventist) but one of the orthodox churches is right in the middle of the city, and it is considered the nicest church building in the southern hemisphere. Do you go to any church in montreal Norbert Arthur? What area/suburb of montreal has a lot of romanians? (BaNaTeaN 00:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

WOW, 9 churches! There're many! Here the ares with the most Romanians are usually the Anglophones bourough, wich are situated around the airport ([[Dorval, Lachine). The bourough with the most Romanians I think should be Dorval or Cote-des-Neiges, because there are the ares with the most European population. I go at the Romanian Catholic Church of Montreal (Sf. Petru), because is the nearest by me. By the way BaNaTeaN, do you have a talk page? Best wishes NorbertArthur 13 January 2006

Nah i dont have a talk page Norbert arthur. Wat part of romania are u from? Norbert Arthur i have done some research into the romanian diaspora and these are my conclusions: 1.1 million ethnic romanians in america, 350,000 in canada, 40,000 in Australia, 3 million in moldova, 500,000 ukraine, 2 million western europe (legal and illegal), 50,000 Israel (250,000 romanian jews), 19.4 million romania. according to my calculations there are over 26 million romanians in the world. Do you think this is correct? (BaNaTeaN 05:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

The part with Australia and Canada I think that it's ok, but probaly in USA we should put 1,2 mil. Yes the Romanians in the world I think are more than 26 mil. , probally 29-30, because Mr. Basescu declared himself that outside Romania there are 7 mil. people. In Australia and Canada is the most good calculated figures. Thanks for informations! I'm from Cluj, but I lived the most time in Oradea. You? Say hi to the Romanian diaspora there from my part. Redards, NorbertArthur 14 January 2006

Norbert Arthur i think you are correct. I have done some research and i believe that there can be 1.5 million in america. There is definetly a lot of romanians that live illegal in europe maybe 3-4 million. I will say hi to the romanians here from the romanian canadians. People on this article dont understand that the romanian diaspora is very big, because of communism, a lot of romanians left romania. During ceausescus time, romania had a population of nearly 24 million people, and out of these about 20.6 million were romanians. At that time there was also 1,000,000 romanians abroad, 800-1,000,000 in the neighbouring countries(ukriane, russia, asia minor, etc....), 3.3-5 million in Moldova. Anything above 26 million sounds right to me. Norbert Arthur say hi to the montreal romanians from me. We are having a romanian festival here in melbourne this week, it happens once a year. there should be a couple of thousand people. Do you think these figures sound right concerning the romanian diaspora. (BaNaTeaN 03:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC))

I think Yes, because if we think logically, there are 7 mil. Romanians abroad, it is impossible that in america for exmaple there are just 367,000, because if we add all the Romanian ethnic figures together, we obtain like 3-4 mil. Romanians abroad, which is to less. The Romanians in Moldova I think you know very well what are they thinking about us, Romanians. There are Romanians, but they are considering themselves Moldovans and they say that they don't even speak the Romanian language, but they are Romanians. It's cool with that fetival there! Are Romanian folkloric dances or other? BaNaTeaN, I don't know nothing for the moment about the Romanian diaspora in New Zealand and I was thinking that Australia is ,,near by New Zealand, so you know something about, like how many Romanians there are? Thanks for infos! NorbertArthur 15 January 2006

Yeah norbert arthur the romanian festuval is going to be awesome. in new zealand it is estimated that there are 3,000 romanians. Yeah moldovans dont think that they are romanian. Who cares about them then, they are idiots if they dont think they are romanian. we romanians have to stick together. Norbert Arthur do you know how many romanians live in south america? (BaNaTeaN 23:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC))

Well, what I certainly know is that in Venezuela are about 15,000 and in Argentina between 12,000-13,000 Romanians. I heard that there would be around 1,500 in Colombia, about what I have to do a research for getting more infos. The only state in South America that I think there is a sizeable Romanian minority is Brazil. I'll search to see. Another country that I also think that are Romanians is South Africa. Do you have an idea about how much they should be there? About Moldovans, I agree with you! They spit on the Romanian churl and on their history. Best wishes! NorbertArthur 16 January 2006

Norbert arthur, sorry i havent been on wikipedia for the last couple of days, i was really busy wit the romanian festival. i heard there are 10,000 romanians in south africa. Do u know how many romanians are in Brazil? how many rroma/gypsies do u think live in romania? (BaNaTeaN 10:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN, thank you for the informations about South Africa! I think we should add it at the list of countries with Romanian in the article, what you say? How it was the festival? In Romania the official sources say that there are around 500,000 Rroma, which i really doubt because I lived in Romania and they are at least 1 million, because there are entire suburbs with Gypsy only! In Brazil I have to do an research to be more sure. I think that they should be around 100,000-150,000. I have an another state that I saw an report at TV and they said that the Romanian diaspora there reaches 100,000 is Japan. How many Romanians you think BaNaTeaN that are living in Japan? Many regards, NorbertArthur 23 January 2006

Norbert Arthur, the festival was good. I think we should add south Africa, as for Japan i dont know, but i know a romanian from Australia that works there, so maybe there are romanians in Japan. I just did some research on the rroma/gypsies, and the E.U. estimates that there are between 1-1.5 million rroma in romania. How many do you think there are in Romania? (203.134.111.194 22:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC))

norbert arthur are you still on wikipedia?

http://www.aboutromania.com/roworld.html it is an excellent site guys, enjoy!

Frivolous rename ?

I've moved back the article to the original title. I've not seen any discussion or consensus to rename it. --_Lysy^talk 21:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I hope not many other people consider a title change from "Romanians" to "Romanian people" to be frivolous. I now accept that favoring the adjectival plural over a "XXX people" template for such titles is preferred. David Kernow 23:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for having used the word "frivolous" which currently seems inappropriate to me. --_Lysy^talk 02:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ahistorical Sense of the term "Romanian" and of the Ethnicity

This article states that "The concept of who is a Romanian has varied. Until the 19th century, it denoted the speakers of Romanian, and was a much more distinct concept than that of Romania, the country of the Romanians," despite the fact that the "Romanian" apellation is a distinctly modern one that is not much older than the 19th century. In the pan-Romanian nationalism of the 1800's and early 1900's, the term was applied retroactively to what had previously been called either Wallachians, Moldovans, or Transylvania Vlachs; previously, the identity of the Romanian-speaking people was tied more to their political configuration than to their shared linguistic heritage, and the Daco-Roman continuity was not claimed until later scholarship by historians participating in the national project, beginning with the Scoala Ardeleana (Transylvanian School of historians from the late 18th c) who first came up with the thesis that Vlachs were descended from Roman colonists. As in the rest of Europe, ethnic identity did not really enter the consciousness of Vlachs until the 19th century, nor did the Latinized name "Romanian" gain a footing with the Latinate speakers of present-day Romania until the Scoala Ardeleana created it and the later Romanian state promoted it. Until then, at most the Romanian-speakers of the different territories were identified linguistically as Vlachs, politically as something else (W, M, T), and ethnically not at all. It is really quite ahistorical to refer to pre-19th c. "Romanians" as Romanians. Andreidude 08:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)