Talk:SS Jarvis Lord

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 17:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

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Jarvis Lord in Point Edward, Ontario

• ... that the wooden freighter Jarvis Lord (pictured) was one of the first lake freighters ever built? Sunken Jarvis Lord discovered in Manitou PassageNorthern Michigan in Focus: The Jarvis Lord Shipwreck
  • ALT1:... that the wooden lake freighter Jarvis Lord (pictured) sank on Lake Michigan in 1885 after a suspected grounding on the North Manitou Island shoal? Sunken Jarvis Lord discovered in Manitou PassageNorthern Michigan in Focus: The Jarvis Lord Shipwreck

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Butler Building
• Comment: I prefer the lead hook. Article is a work in progress.

Created by GreatLakesShips (talk). Self-nominated at 01:02, 22 December 2020 (UTC).

• Hi GreatLakesShips, this article cannot currently be featured in the DYK section. Per the standard rules the text must be of minimum 1,500 characters length (I count around 1,200 here) and each paragraph (as a minimum) must have an inline citation. If you can expand the article a little and add some citations I'd be more than happy to take another look - Dumelow (talk) 12:52, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: I will start expanding it. GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:23, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, let me know when you're done. Sorry, I messed up with the formatting earlier that hid some of my comments; now fixed - Dumelow (talk) 13:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: Is this enough for the time being? Of course it is still a work in progress, but I should complete the article soon. GreatLakesShips (talk) 17:54, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi GreatLakesShips, the article is coming along excellently. I'm more than happy to wait for you to fill out the remaining sections before review, there's no deadline - Dumelow (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: Thank you very much, I should have it finished pretty quickly. GreatLakesShips (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: The article is complete. GreatLakesShips (talk) 17:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi GreatLakesShips, sorry for delay, I have been away over Christmas. Article now looks excellent. Created 15 December; greatly exceeds minimum length; I am not familiar with the sources used but happy to AGF that they are reliable for this field; inline citations are used throughout; Earwig flags some similarity with the Scuba News and Michigan Mysteries articles but I've reviewed these and they look to be largely unavoidable/coincidental; image lacks a US copyright notice over at Commons; hooks are both OK, check out to the source and mentioned in the article (I've added an explicit mention of "lake freighter" to the main text, the grounding has only been suspected by a modern report not at the time but the nuance is probably too much to get into the hook); a QPQ has been carried out. OK to run as is without image, image can be used if the copyright tag is addressed - Dumelow (talk) 10:22, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: Thanks for reviewing. To my knowledge, this copyright tag is also acceptable as the image has been taken over 120 years ago, and the author's identity is unknown. This image from another one of my articles with the same license appeared on the main page earlier this month, and the reviewer agreed that it was free to use. GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi GreatLakesShips. That other image should have been picked up at review. To be hosted on Commons the image needs to be public domain in the origin country and in the US (where the Commons servers are hosted). The current tag only indicates that it is free in Canada, hence the small print: "You must also include a United States public domain tag to indicate why this work is in the public domain in the United States". The policy is outlined at Commons:Licensing. Hopefully one of the American tags at Commons:Commons:Copyright_tags/Country-specific_tags#United_States_of_America applies? - Dumelow (talk) 13:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: I have put a US tag on both of the images. To my knowledge, neither of them have ever been published prior to 2003. Should I exchange the images, or is that no longer possible? GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi GreatLakesShips, not sure what you mean by "exchange the images" but this should be OK to run with the image now - Dumelow (talk) 14:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: You said the other image should have been picked up. I assume that you meant the other image included in the article is more suitable. GreatLakesShips (talk) 14:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry GreatLakesShips, I meant that the lack of a US license should have been spotted by the reviewer of Template:Did you know nominations/SS S.R. Kirby. This image is the best one for this article. It'd probably be worthwhile going back and adding US licenses to File:S.R. Kirby fitting out (1).jpg and any other similar images or else they will (eventually) be queried for deletion at Commons - Dumelow (talk) 14:24, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Dumelow: Thanks for clearing that up. I will go and correct the license. GreatLakesShips (talk) 14:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:SS Jarvis Lord/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 01:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

• Port of registry — Is this in the article?

• Done.

Lead

• Perhaps break the first paragraph into two sentences. 1) What the ship was. 2) What happened to her.

• Done

• In the second paragraph, you could add—if there's a source—what the ship was normally used for, e.g., what she typically carried.

• Done.

Design and construction

• Official number 75499 — What does this mean?

• Done. Linked to the wiki page.

• Is the number "75499", or "US 75499"? The infobox says "US 75499", but the text says "75499".

• Done.

• Morley & Hill — Is this worthy of a red link?

• Probably not.

• double-decked steamship — Anything to link to?

• Linked to "Deck (ship)".

Service history

• She was originally built for William B. Morley — What does this mean? Per "Design and construction" the ship was built by him, but that's different.

• Clarified.

• What is an "enrollment"?

• Link added.

• On June 1, 1873, she was the first ship to arrive in Buffalo, New York from Duluth, Minnesota, loaded with 27,800 bushels of wheat — This sentence is confusing, and could mean at least six things. It could mean the ship was the first ship ever to arrive in Buffalo. It could also mean it was the first ship that both a) arrived at Buffalo and b) left from Duluth. Or, it could mean that it was the first ship to a) arrive in Buffalo, after b) leaving from Duluth, while c) carrying 27,000 bushels of wheat. Or it could mean any three of those, but qualified to the date of June 1, 1873.

• Fixed.

• While in the Chicago harbour on April 1, 1874, Jarvis Lord received $100 worth of damage to her hull. — How?

• This, sadly, is unknown. Changed sentence to reflect that.

• she broke her engine — How?

• Changed to "her engine broke down".

• an obstruction — Any details?

• Changed to "an unknown obstruction".

• Captain A.W. Drake — Any relation to Marcus M. Drake? Worth a red link?

• This is not known. Probably not worth a red link.

• the steamer Garland — Worth a red link?

• Probably not.

• Can "layup" be linked to anything? "Laid up" redirects to reserve fleet, would that be appropriate?

• Done.

• John W. Moore ... H.H. Brown ... T.P. Sheldon ... Champion, G.P. King and Reindeer ... E.P. Royce — Red links?

• Probably not.

• Generally speaking, this section feels like a bunch of press clippings stitched together into a narrative. Perhaps that's inevitable—you can only say what has been written about the ship—but just highlighting it in case you can think of ways of ameliorating it.

Final voyage

• On August 17/18 — Perhaps "On August 17 or 18". Also, the year should be given.

• Done.

• Richard Neville — Worth a red link?

• Not worth a link.

• What's Pyramid Point?

• Redirected to Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore, as it is located within it.

• Lawrence — Red link?

• Probably not.

• her hull had a rating of A2 ½ — What does this mean?

• Insurance rating.

• Any further information about what her crew did after, or how the affairs of the ship were settled (insurance policy, etc.)?

• Aside from the value and the insurance rating, not much is known.

Discovery

• In the years following her sinking, multiple shipwreck hunters tried and failed to find Jarvis Lord's wreck. Shipwreck hunter Ross Richardson of Lake Ann, Michigan had aspirations of locating Jarvis Lord for a number of years. — The second sentence seems to jump 100+ years from the first, with no indication or warning.

• I don't necessarily known what can be done here.

• scanning — How/with what?

• Linked to "side-scan sonar".

• Any hopes of getting photos of the wreck? Have you thought about reaching out to Richardson?

• Uploaded a fair use image.

References

• There's a lot of sourcing to maritimehistoryofthegreatlakes.ca, which seems fine—the sources used appear to just reproduce old newspaper articles. But I wonder if you looked elsewhere for articles? In particular, newspapers.com returns 199 hits from 1872 to 1885 for the term "Jarvis Lord" from Michigan newspapers. (I limited it to Michigan to prevent mishits for Jarvis Lord, though perhaps some other states/provinces on the Great Lakes would have some relevant newspaper coverage.)

• @Usernameunique: All of what I was able to do has been done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 09:34, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• @Usernameunique: The minor issue has been sorted. GreatLakesShips (talk) 08:29, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks, GreatLakesShips. One question above about sources. By the way, for future reference, please don't strike my comments once you respond to them: it makes it harder for me to see what the comment was, and in any event, I should be the one deciding whether the comment is resolved or not. Not a big deal, just a heads up. --Usernameunique (talk) 10:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• @Usernameunique: I haven't really looked, but as far as I'm concerned, the maritimehistoryofthegreatlakes.ca website covers all the significant details. Also, I suspect that most of the newspapers that showed results contained "vessel movements" reports, which are by and large useless. GreatLakesShips (talk) 12:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Closing comment

• GreatLakesShips, I'm going to go ahead and pass the article. Having taken a look at about 40 of the 199 hits on newspapers.com, it's clear that they do contain some information that is not currently in the article; most are movements of vessel movements, as you say, but many are not. Here are some that I found from that search: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. On the other hand, these articles, for the most part, simply add color that what is in the article, and I do not see anything significant that is left out. In other words, while the article would likely not be considered "comprehensive" under the featured-article criteria, it certainly "addresses the main aspects of the topic", while is the relevant good-article criterion. At any rate, it's a nice article, and congrats on the promotion. If you would like to keep working on it at some point but don't have a newspapers.com account, you can apply for a free one through The Wikipedia Library. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:42, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: Thanks. Tomorrow, I will take a closer look at the clippings you provided and do some extra work on the article. GreatLakesShips (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)