Talk:Saaranpaskantamasaari

Translation

I disagree with the translation ("the island where Saara defecated"). The translation for "to defecate" would be ulostaa, whereas paskantaa is the vulgar version and translates to "to shit". Also, the agent participle "paskantama" refers to the object of the verb, not the place (at least in standard Finnish). So it should be "the island which Saara defecated" in any case. I'd edit the article accordingly if all of this wasn't just original research in the first place. Jafeluv (talk) 06:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

If that's correct, fix it, Wikipedia is not censored. --Hm2k (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I boldly removed the translation. Let me explain why: I'm not interested in "censoring" anything, as you seem to imply. (If I was, I'd probably be more interested about the goatse.cx image or the pictures of Muhammed, rather than one instance of the word "defecate".) As I explained above, in my opinion the translation was incorrect. Being incorrect, however, is not as bad as not being verifiable from a reliable source. Wikipedia's verifiability policy requires us to attribute any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable source. If there's no source on such a claim, there's no way a reader may know if the presented information is general knowledge published in scientific journals or the result of a bored teenage troll who wanted to see if they got away with it. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Now, feel free to add the translation with a reference to a reliable source. Actually, if you disagree with my thoughts, feel free to revert my removal of the translation for any reason - if your edit is supported by consensus, who am I to question it? I've learned quite a few things during the AfD about the notability of geographical entities. If something I've said above doesn't make sense, please try to consider it as a part of my learning curve. But, by all means, do point it out to me where I was wrong, so that I'll know better next time. Jafeluv (talk) 19:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I contacted a Ph.D. at the Institute for the Languages of Finland, who confirmed that the name translates as "Saara's shitting island" which a modern Finn would find quite vulgar. This translation, I think, can be verified from a dictionary, so it should be restored.

Confirming an etymology requires more than just a dictionary translation, of course. My informant kindly went down into the Institute's Names Archive and found the index card for this toponym. The card says that, according to an informant in Onkamo in 1961, someone named Saara, on a fishing trip, emptied her bowels there. This is an amusing story, and is as good as we're likely to get for the etymology an obscure toponym such as this. Much as I'd love to add it to the article, however, I'm not convinced that it constitutes a verifiable source, since very few users of the English Wikipedia have the means to fly to Helsinki, locate the card, and interpret what it says.

If I'm mistaken, please correct me.--Stepheng3 (talk) 17:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much, and thank you to the professor whom you contacted. This is great. I could have done the same request myself, but I hadn't thought there might be such a resource available, let alone a webpage for it in English, let alone someone who works near there who would be willing to help. This is more less exactly what I was hoping to do when I created the article: spark the interest of someone with the means to confirm that it is true, and something which I would not have been able to do myself. And I'm pleased to see that it confirms the story I had heard originally, even though apparently the Finnish name of the island would suggest something slightly different ("shit (on)" vs "shit out"). However I understand that this doesn't necessarily mean that we can add back the line I wrote into the article and let it stand with no way to confirm the verifiability. Perhaps it will never happen; but in any case I'm glad now that the article survived the AfD long enough to attract the attention of people who were willing to help with the necessary research. -- Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 17:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the etymology should definitely be added now that a reliable source has been found (properly referenced, of course). I don't think it's a problem that one has to travel to Helsinki to verify it—it's not like we only accept sources that were either available online or published worldwide. There's no question that academic archives are considered reliable sources. Non-English sources are acceptable if no English-language alternative can be found. Nice job finding the source, Stepheng3. Jafeluv (talk) 10:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try to make this happen. --Stepheng3 (talk) 00:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)