Talk:Saharan Spanish

Language family tree

@180app: @Koavf: including a language family tree in this page's infobox is very misleading for readers, they will assume that Saharawis speak a particular variety of Spanish exactly as if it were for instance Mexico or Chile. Of course that is not true, they're second language learners and their level of fluency will be very diverse, ranging from very competent speakers to mere beginners. The only common trait in their Spanish will be the interference from their common Arabic dialect. It's as if we took the learners of, say, French or Japanese in, say, Indiana (US), and we classified their dialects as subvarieties of standard French or standard Japanese. The tree doesn't serve any useful purpose, it must be deleted. Jotamar (talk) 22:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

But there are particular features of Saharan Spanish and they have spoken it for decades. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:50, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

"They have spoken it for decades" ... but not among them! They speak it to their teachers, and the oldest ones spoke it to Spaniards when it was a Spanish colony, quite a long time ago. Do they have particular features in their Spanish, except interference from Hassaniya? Not a single one is mentioned in this page. --Jotamar (talk) 23:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Is that interference you've mentioned not characteristic? I understand that the Equatoguinean variety is in a similar situation to this one, even if this one is not as necessarily as prevalent. Several audiovisual media outlets work in this language, for example. 180app (talk) 05:13, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Every type of language spoken by non-native speakers has interference, so, again, it's like we had a page about Indianan French. And those media outlets, do they speak a particular Saharan Spanish or do they just speak Spanish the best they can? --Jotamar (talk) 21:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

With no further comments in one month, I feel I'm in a position to delete the language family tree again. --Jotamar (talk) 23:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Just because other editors didn't reply doesn't mean that they agree with you. I suggest you ping them and see what they think. M.Bitton (talk) 23:15, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, at the risk of making this discussion a never-ending story, I'm asking 180app and Koavf whether they have changed their mind about the question or not. --Jotamar (talk) 23:43, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I am indifferent to the deletion of the language infobox if I'm being honest, so go ahead with the deletion if you wish.

I would like to add that a a rewriting of the page appears to be long overdue. The history section, perhaps the most relevant considering this discussion, does not have a single source. The rest of the page also does not have much information. 180app (talk) 23:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it should be removed. It's on other varieties of Spanish pages, such as Peruvian Spanish. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, that is the gist of my argumentation. Saharan Spanish is NOT another variety of Spanish. It's spoken by native speakers of an unrelated language (Hassaniya), who, as all non-natives, will have a variable level of competence (or incompetence) in the language, and unpredictable traits in their interlanguage. --Jotamar (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

And as I wrote above, there are native Sahrawi Hispanics. Most Sahrawis are native Arabs (almost all of them) and they are an Arab people, but it's not true that all Sahrawis who have Spanish competence are second-hand learners. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Your source doesn't support the claim, and I'll leave aside for the moment that Instituto Cervantes is unreliable for statistical data about Spanish, they're always inflating those. Cuadro 2 in the pdf implies that there are 300 people with native-like competence for Spanish in Algeria, and you are assuming that a) those 300 people are Saharawis in Tindouf and not Algerians elsewhere in Algeria, b) they are native speakers with their own dialect of Spanish. The second assumption in particular is clearly wrong; the figure most probably refers to Saharawi teachers of Spanish, who of course are not native speakers, but just advanced speakers; it might also refer to instructors sent by Cuba or some other government. --Jotamar (talk) 08:21, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Koavf: I'd like to know whether you have anything else to say or you are just waiting for me to forget about the question. --Jotamar (talk) 22:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Just post to the relevant WikiProject's talk page. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Request posted at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages#Input_requested_at_Saharan_Spanish. --Jotamar (talk) 22:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:15, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: since you have edited the page, I'd like to know your opinion about the point being discussed too. --Jotamar (talk) 22:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Koavf: my attempts at summoning other editors into the discussion have been unsuccessful, and 180app does not reject the change I'm proposing, so it comes to your opinion against mine. So my questions are:

• Do you think that there are Sahrawis that are native speakers of Spanish and have their own dialect of the language?
• If the answer is yes, what makes you think that? --Jotamar (talk) 19:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not certain that any Sahrawi has it as a mother tongue, but I do know that some learn it from a very young age and there are bilingual children. I think we should follow whatever the advice is of the relevant WikiProject. Did you post to their talk page? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Koavf: I already told you, I have asked for further comments in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages#Input_requested_at_Saharan_Spanish. Is that page relevant enough? Unfortunately, nobody answers. --Jotamar (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is exactly the correct place. Sorry for misreading it. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)