Talk:Saint Margaret of Scotland

Image

I might be wrong, but my guess is that the image shown is one of Margaret of Antioch, because (a) the saint is apparently in a jail cell, and (b) she is shown with a dragon. I've searched most of the best saints websites, but can find no reference to either in the life of Margaret of Scotland. However, I'm certainly no expert. Anyone else know? alpheus 26 March 2005

Image since changed. --Henrygb 15:57, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Parentage

I think the reference & link to Agatha of Bulgaria as Margaret's mother should be removed, as this is highly debatable. Google searches for "St. Margaret of Scotland" and "Edward the Exile" turn up results calling her "of Hungary" "of Brunswick" or "the German", depending on what version of her ancestry they use. She's been reported to be anything from a non-specific relative of Stephen of Hungary's wife to the daughter of HRE Henry III (or sometimes daughter or niece of Henry I or II) to the daughter of Grand Prince Yaroslav I of Kiev. The Bulgarian version is just one of many potential family lines, none of which has been definitively proven.130.36.62.126 14:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I have an idea to add her ancestry:

Ancestors of Saint Margaret of Scotland
16. Edgar the Peaceful 8. Æthelred II the Unready 17. Ælfthryth 4. Edmund II Ironside 18. Thored/Æthelberht 9. Ælfgifu of York 2. Edward the Exile 10. Aelfthryth? 5. Ealdgyth 1. Saint Margaret of Scotland 3. Agatha

Sources:

• Bernard Burke, Ashworth P. Burke. A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the Privy Council, Knightage, and Companionage. 1934
• Oram, Richard; David: The King Who Made Scotland, (Gloucestershire, 2004).
• Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, William Ryland Beall, Kaleen E. Beall. Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before 1700: Lineages from Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Other Historical Individuals 2008. ISBN 0806317523, ISBN 9780806317526

Additional source:

• Foundation of medieval genealogy: Scotland, kings https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm; England, anglo-saxon and danish kings https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20&%20Danish%20Kings.htm

Dmitry Azikov (talk) 05:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

References

FMG and Genealogics are self-published fansites, and therefore deprecated. Roots of Certain American Colonists is essentially self-published too. Also, as I told you before, it is not necessary to repeat citation details 18 times. There are technical ways of merging footnotes. "Agatha" is a disambiguation page. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Reason for Canonization

I am somewhat offended by the reference to Saint Margaret being canonized because of her "benefactions" to the Church. This makes it sound as if she bought her way to holiness. As the Catholic Encyclopedia says, "Her private life was given up to constant prayer and practices of piety." This is a much better reason why the Catholic Church has recognized her holiness, not merely because she built churches and monasteries. 68.65.122.80 13:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Edward as French-speaking

Why is Edward referred to as the "French-speaking" Anglo-Saxon King of England? He was Anglo-Saxon and died before the Norman Conquest. What evidence do we have that he spoke French? 71.192.97.141 by stacyeie

He spent many years in Normandy, so that Edward will inevitably have learned [Old] French. Having said that, I'm not sure why it should even be mentioned here. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting to note, the Vita Ædwardi Regis written c. 1068 says his wife Edith of Wessex was fluent in English, French and Irish. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

How could Margaret have established the first holy orders in Scotland

The article states: "Margaret was known for having invited English Benedictine monks to Scotland, to establish the first holy orders in the nation. She admired their work and learning, and also encouraged Scottish holy men." This is confusing, since there were Irish monks in Scotland, beginning in 563, a time roughly contemporaneous with the founding of the Benedictine order in Italy in 529, half a millenium before Margaret's birth.

-- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 17:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC))

Transition from Sabbath to Sunday Observance

Scotland may have been one of the last places where the transition from Sabbath (Fri-sunset to Saturday sunset) to Sunday observance occurred. Margaret vigorously opposed the practice of Sabbath-keeping in Scotland. As had happened earlier in church history throughout Europe Christians continued the apostolic practice of observing the Sabbath but gradually Sunday was adopted, at first they observed the Sabbath but met early on Sunday (and then went to work) but gradually the Sabbath was abandoned. Margaret promoted the abandonment of the Sabbath for Sunday in Scotland and was successful. Her influence on Christian history can't be understated, the Sabbath may have continued to be observed in the Scottish church and we may not be such a minority in the Christian world.

A source would be useful for that. At some point the word "Sabbath" is used by Scots to mean Sunday. "Sabbathkeeping" meant keeping Sunday holy. It is hard to believe that "Saturday-Sabbath" "survived" in Scotland when by the time Christianity came to Scotland everyone was worshipping on what St Paul and St John call the Lord's day, namely Sunday. --96.127.214.149 (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Queen of Scots

User:Surtsicna "King/Queen of Scots" was the formal style of the Scottish monarch/consort, as evidenced by royal seals, which have been inscribed Regis or Rex Scottorum since the reign of Duncan II, and undoubtedly earlier, but no earlier royal seals have survived (see History of Scottish Seals by Walter de Gray Birch). I'm not suggesting we should move the page or anything like that, since Wikipedia policy is to use the common name as the title, I just thought it would be better if her formal name was used at the beginning of the article. Zacwill16 (talk) 14:45, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so that's the only issue? We could change "Queen consort of Scotland" to "Queen consort of Scots" and amend her sons' titles too. Then again, her daughter's formal title was Queen of the English, so I'm not sure how nitpicky we want to get. Surtsicna (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Either "Queen of Scots" or "Queen of Scotland" would be fine in my opinion, just not "of Scotland" as it suggests she was the daughter of a Scottish king rather than the wife of one. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:01, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

List of places named for her

I have temporarily moved the list from the mainspace to here. There are several problems with it. It is unreferenced - while in some cases it is apparent, there were many St. Margarets so it cannot be taken for granted that some of them were named for this Saint. Likewise, there is the issue of whether any particular instance is noteworthy - most of the links are off Wikipedia, suggesting that they are not. Finally, it is just too long - 40% of the total vertical space of the page is made up of this list. The list needs to be severely pared down, or eliminated entirely. I have moved it here for the time being. Agricolae (talk) 07:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

List of places named for St. Margaret, moved from page

*Scotland Church of St Margaret of Scotland, Aberdeen Queen Margaret Hospital in Dunfermline, Fife Queen Margaret University in Edinburgh, which adopted the name in 1972 Queen Margaret College in Glasgow Queen Margaret Union in Glasgow, a student union at Glasgow University North Queensferry, being a terminus of the ferry that St Margaret established South Queensferry, being a terminus of the ferry that St Margaret established St Margaret's Roman Catholic Primary School in South Queensferry St Margaret's High School in Airdrie, North Lanarkshire Queen Margaret Academy in Ayr St Margaret of Scotland Hospice in Clydebank St Margaret's Academy in Livingston Canada St Margaret of Scotland Catholic Elementary in Erin Mills, Mississauga, Ontario St Margaret of Scotland Parish in Toronto, Ontario St Margaret's School in Victoria, British Columbia, a primary and secondary school for girls, both boarding and daily students St Margaret of Scotland Catholic School in Cambridge, Ontario United States of America St Margaret's Hospital Guild in Indianapolis, Indiana St Margaret Regional School in Buzzards Bay, Massachusetts St Margaret Catholic Church and Academy/School in Otsego, Michigan, an elementary and middle school (preschool - grade 8) St Margaret of Scotland Catholic Parish in Lees Summit, Missouri St Margaret of Scotland School in St. Louis, Missouri St Margaret of Scotland Catholic Church and School in Green Tree, Pennsylvania St Margaret's School in Tappahannock, Virginia, a private Episcopalian collegiate preparatory school with grades 8-12 for girls, both boarding and daily students St. Margaret of Scotland Church in Selden, New York, a Roman Catholic church within the Diocese of Rockville Centre Other Nations St Margaret's School, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, including primary and secondary schools St Margaret's Anglican Church in Eltham, Victoria, Australia St Margaret's School in Viña del Mar, Chile Church of St Margaret the Queen in Buxted, East Sussex, England, erected in the 13th century St Margaret's Chapel in Glastonbury, England St Margaret's School in Bushey, Hertfordshire, England, a private school with boarding facilities for girls 4–18 years of age Ste. Marguerite Church near Etel, Brittany, France Anglican church in Budapest, Hungary St Margaret's Junior College in Suginami, Tokyo, Japan, incorporating kindergarten, girls' primary, and junior and senior high schools St Margaret's College in Christchurch, New Zealand Queen Margaret College, Wellington, New Zealand St Margaret's Primary School and St Margaret's Secondary School in Singapore St John's - St Margaret's Church (Anglican) in Singapore St Margaret's School in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, a private school run by the order of the Sisters of the Sacred Advent, with boarding facilities for girls 4–18 years of age.

References

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OK its your page

I have had edits reverted on this page even though they IMO add detail that some people believe that parts of her body are extant and that her relic inspired the rebirth of Scottish convents. This is referenced to the ODNB which is the touchstone of acceptable references. (It should have been formatted better). Regrettably today's version is only available (free) to UK library users but that is quite a few of our editors. I am told to bring this debate here (as if its my problem). If a 3rd person cares to review this then please ping me - as I am already debated out and it will be of interest elsewhere on the Wiki. Victuallers (talk) 14:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

First, it is very vague - 'a relic' could mean anything. A bone, a piece of property, or, let's be blunt, an outright fraud. Second, it is not found in a source that is actually writing about Margaret. Just because something is found in a reliable source doesn't mean it is noteworthy on a page about someone other than the subject of the source. In this case, this detail is not found in the ODNB article for Margaret, it is found in the ODNB article for Ann Agnes Trail. That is a good indication of where it is more noteworthy on Wikipedia. We don't make an effort to track down the fates of all of the relics of any other saints, because modern biographies of those saints usually don't consider this worthwhile, even if there are relic ownership claims found in reliable sources about holy sites. If you have a reliable source writing about Margaret that says she inspired the 'rebirth of Scottish convents', that is a different story, but I get the impression this broad statement is not explicitly found in the source, so we don't get to reach it ourselves. Even were something about what happened to a relic included in this article, it would not be lede material - indeed, the lede probably has too much relic information as it is. (And, yes, it is your problem if you care enough to repeatedly put it in the article when someone else disagrees.) Agricolae (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Parentage (2)

This page cites Malcolm III of Scotland as father, Saint Margaret of Scotland as mother, yet neither of those pages refer to Margaret as progeny... Dalehoop (talk) 00:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Malcolm III was her husband and she wasn't her own mother. The article is correct as it is. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:41, 9 November 2023 (UTC)