Talk:Sam Tomkins

Dirty tactics

As per this edit, I'm willing to concede that Tomkins' trapping the arm underneath the ball to earn penalties for interference and two-man steals is a talking point amongst fans (plus Eddie and Stevo), and I was looking to add it into the article myself, but I couldn't find any reliable sources. However, one article on Code13 (not a major news website) that says "alleged" to refer to said incidents, and a thread on BBC 606 (See: WP:SPS) are hardly proof of the widespread criticism this edit implies. To be blunt, everytime I've looked for news articles about the topic, all I've come across are topics on forums, which can't be used on Wikipedia. Therefore, I'm reverting the edit, until people can find enough reliable sources to re-add it. GW(talk) 11:00, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:CIRCULAR

In the run up to the 2011 Challenge Cup, it's worth noting some 'journalists' have decided to use this Wikipedia article to supply their own articles. Whilst legally all content on Wikipedia is free under a Creative Commons license, such articles may not be used for reference on Wikipedia itself, as doing so would break Wikipedia's policies on verfiability, and they will be listed here to provide warning for all other prospective editors: GW(talk) 19:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• Sam Tomkins: Rugby League Genius on Sabotage times—copied as of 24 August 2011.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sam Tomkins/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aircorn (talk • contribs • count) 08:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

My background to league is that I watch the NRL relatively regularly, although I am more interested in the "other" code. A lot of detail is in this article and I have been quite thorough with the review, leading to the large comments section below. I see getting this article through the GA process as a collaborative effort and everything in the comments is negotiable to some extent. Also not every comment falls strictly under the criteria, with many containing questions or suggestions to improve the article. Despite its size everything is relatively minor. Please leave any questions or responses under the relevant comment. Cheers AIRcorn (talk) 12:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Your writing style is a bit different to what I use, which made it a little difficult for me to review the prose. The flow is affected within some paragraphs as loosely related ideas are sometimes included without being introduced or fully explained in context. The tone is quite casual in places and uses a lot of terminology readers might find unfamiliar. Parts probably need to be written in a slightly more encyclopedic tone, but I don't want to change your style too much. Some sentences try and introduce too much information and can be hard to follow. Much more detail under the comments.

   Fixed

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   I will review the references in more detail shortly.

   Spot check revealed no issues.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Very broad. Might run into length problems as his career continues, but that is a problem for another day.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   A few slightly POV words under comments.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Fine

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Licences check out. Would consider moving the second picture to the left so he is facing the text, but that is not a requirement by any means.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments

Early Life

• Although his family were traditionally from the North of England, Tomkins' parents had moved due to his father's work as a police officer following the birth of Sam's older brother Joel in Warrington. Found this a bit ambiguous (traditionally) and a little redundant (North of England/Warrington). Is "traditionally" or "North of England" even needed? Is there a year? Is it known exactly why they moved?

Only that it was due to his father's work as a policeman. Agreed on the excessive use of "North of England" with "Warrington" though--this is self evident. As for "traditionally"... perhaps "Following the birth of Sam's older brother Joel in Warrington, the family had moved to Milton Keynes due to his father's work as a police officer" would be better?

Sounds good to me. AIRcorn (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• Is Logan Tomkins likely to be notable?

Very likely to pass WPRL's own notability guidelines next year given he's currently on loan at Widnes Vikings, whilst still being contracted to Wigan, both of whom will be in the top-flight Super League competition next year.

Sweet, keep the red link then. AIRcorn (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• Tomkins' first experience of rugby league came when he was seven years old, when his father introduced both him and Joel to the Chorley Panthers amateur club. Some repetition. When he, when his, he his him. Maybe "after his father" and "introduced Sam and Joel" would read a bit better.

Agreed.

• I feel feeder needs to be made more obvious. Definitely link it to Farm team. Should probably say it is a feeder club for Wigan too.

Searched for an appropriate Wikilink at the time, couldn't find any. Will put in.

• When he was aged twelve, he obtained a place on the Wigan Warriors scholarship scheme, and after developing further, Tomkins was offered a part-time contract for the club's academy when he turned sixteen. What does "after developing further" mean? Size, age, skills, all three? I would be tempted to either split it into two sentences expanding on his development or remove the development section and start the second part "and when he turned sixteen, Tomkins was".

It's difficult to find further details on play development that early in their career, so I'll have to remove the development part and shorten the two parts of the sentence together.

• The 2007 season would prove to be Tomkins' last before making his first-grade debut a year later. Few issues with this paragraph. It is not very clear what team Tomkins is playing for throughout, I originally though St. Patricks, but at the end I was not so sure. No other seasons are mentioned so starting with The 2007 season doesn't flow very well with the previous paragraph. In its current form the U18 win for England doesn't fit with the rest of the paragraph. I feel this whole paragraph needs to be structured a bit better. It starts with an undisclosed 2007 season, talks about the club's under 18s, England under 18's and senior under 21's side.

Club Career

• Wigan Warriors is overlinked, just need to do it the first time.

Done

• ... team's stand-off who the club agreed to release from contract so he could return to Australia... A little bit long and awkward. Could be tightened up to "after the club decided to release the stand-off from his contract" Flow is impeded by this sentence a bit too. The paragraph starts off with his first game and then changes tack talking about Barret leaving.

Now reads "When Wigan agreed to release the stand-off Trent Barrett from his contract, the club looked to find a long-term replacement" and then moved into Tomkins' contract extention. This part has been given its own paragraph so it doesn't disturb the flow as much.

• Mark Flanagan needs to be disambiguated. Who is he anyway, needs to be introduced in context.

Added "teammate" and dismiguated to the current Wests Tigers player.

• Is the pre season not counted as a team debut?

Not professionally. To reflect this, I've placed "unofficial friendly match" at the start of the sentence.

• Aged 19, Tomkins became the first player in rugby league history to score five tries on his first-grade debut, completing his hat-trick within the first twelve minutes of the match, as the Warriors scored eighteen tries on the way to a 106–8 thrashing. Does it need to start "Aged 19", that would work better in the previous sentence leaving this to concentrate on his record breaking feat. If someone does not know what a hat-trick is they would be left with the impression that it was scoring five tries after reading this. Since scoring five tries is more impressive does it need to be mentioned? Also while thrashing is certainly appropriate, I wonder if there is a more neutral encyclopaedic word that can be used instead. Wikilink hat-trick too.

Moved "aged 19" to previous sentence (it seems more appopriate there anyway). Briefly explained hat-trick with "scoring his first three tries to complete a hat-trick". "Thrashing" -> "Victory". "Hat-trick" wikilinked.

• As the club signed Mark Riddell during the week following the match, Tomkins paid tribute through a local newspaper to the influence of Barrett and his brother Joel on his debut performance How is the club signing Riddell tie in with Tomkins paying tribute? Did he play with Barret? The second sentence of this section makes it seem like he replaced him. Also did he play with Joel? If so it probably should be mentioned.

Moved this whole sentence to the accompanying quotebox, since without reading both the box lacked context as well. Seems more sensible to place them both in one place.

• Would change league debut to Super League debut. He debuted at league when he was seven.

Agreed.

• He played out the rest of his 2008 season rest of "the" 2008 season

Done.

• He also received an endorsement from the Ian Lenagan is it supposed to be the Ian Lenegan

No, Lenagan is right according to the club's website.

Should the "the" be there? It would read better "He also received an endorsement from Ian Lenagan" AIRcorn (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• As a pre-season friendly to Wigan's 2009 season, the club played Warrington over the 2008 Christmas holidays This sentence seems to be backwards. I feel The club played Warrington over the 2008 Christmas holidays, as a pre-season friendly to Wigan's 2009 season reads better.

Agreed

• firstly to Huddersfield Giants and then to Leigh Centurions "to" doesn't sound right. Would against be better?

"To" implies he played for them, not against them, so agreed.

• For 2009, Tomkins was slightly elevated up the Wigan squad to #25 What does this mean? Do the players have a ranking? Would write out number in any case.

Meant he was given the shirt number, I've removed "elevated" and simply stated he was given the shirt number. I would normally agree on writing out numbers, however I feel shirt numbers should be an exception, since players don't take to the field with "twenty-five" on their shirt in place of "25".

No problem. AIRcorn (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• With Shaun Ainscough, Tomkins produced the move which allowed George Carmont to level the scores, Probably needs more explanation than produced the move. Maybe just say he made the break

"Changed to "Tomkins made a break early in the second half which allowed George Carmont to claim the equalising try."

• In scoring a brace against Salford City Reds Not sure everyone would know what brace means. Maybe put 2 in brackets

"After scoring twice for a brace against Salford City Reds"

• but Tomkins came on as an ... But doesn't sound right there. Suggest starting a new sentence.

Have done.

• and although he was found guilty on a charge of kicking out What is kicking out?

During the play-the-ball, it means kicking out your foot to strike one of the tackling players on the opposite team. I've explained this in the prose.

• but did not eventually play Eventually is redundent

Removed.

• Tomkins played every game for the Warriors thereafter, except for the final regular round fixture of the season against Huddersfield, including a hat-trick and his first drop goal against Castleford, until the team were knocked out of the Super League play-offs by St. Helens RLFC Comma Splice

Taken the Castleford part and made a new sentence for it after this sentence. Sentence isn't spliced any more.

• voted Super League Young Player of the Year Who votes for this. Players, fans, experts?

Acclaimed sports journalists in the RLWA. I've placed this in the prose.

• In ending the domestic season with 27 first-grade appearances, 23 of which in the league, as well as fifteen tries, Tomkins had more than doubled the estimation of ten league games made by Wane during the previous season, and was given a five-year contract. Grammar (23 of which in the league) and too many commas to easily draw out the parenthetical remarks.

Horrid sentence. I've divided it into three sentences (one for seasons stats, one for beating Wane's prediction, one for new contract). Also written out numbers.

• 'the #6 shirt spell out number

See above comment on shirt numbers

• and Tomkins' first honour as a player honour?

A common British term for winning a title in sport. See Thierry Henry: "His first honours with the Catalan club came in 2009 when they won the league, cup and Champions League treble". I'm not sure how to explain this in the article...

Don't worry about it. It is easy to work out what it means and if it is a common British term then it should stay. AIRcorn (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• Tomkins was forced to play at scrum-half for the Warriors Forced. Seems too strong to use without more context, especially if he was moved their to accommodate another player. Not sure why there is an apostrophe on Warriors.

I disagree, for example "John's hospital appointment", "The Warriors' round 12 fixture". Agreed that the accompanying reference doesn't provide enough context to say "forced", so I've simply stated that he played at scrum-half. This sentence was mainly introduced to back-up the infobox when it states "scrum-half" as a playing position despite his playing career being at stand-off/fullback mostly.

I am wrong with the apostrophe. AIRcorn (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• Commenting on his performance, the Daily Mirror reported Redundancy

Removed the first part of the sentence, simply "the Daily Mirror reported Maguire as saying..." now.

• Also in the team was Joel Tomkins at second-row, which the first time a Super League Dream Team had featured two brothers Grammer and I would unlink Joel Tomkins

Unlinked, and divided into two sentences with a full stop, and "this" replacing "which".

• Pat Richards was named Man of Steel Might need a little more context

MoS is voted by fellow SL players for who had the biggest impact on the season. I've added this in, at the risk of losing focus away from Tomkins' own achievement.

Unfinished Comments

This is where GW got up to. I have struck some that have since been fixed or explained above. AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Club Career (2011 Season)

• Tomkins has so far made thirty appearances during the 2011 season; It can be a bit tricky with current seasons. The trouble with so far is that it needs to be updated constantly. It would be better to say "as of ...." so there is no chance of an inaccurate fact being presented.

• Done. The season's over now so we can avoid the "so far". --Mkativerata (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Tomkins received a match ban in round 6 due to an incident against Hull in the match before What was the incident

• He was fighting, the naughty boy. Done. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• and he was consequently made favourite for the 2011 Man of Steel award who made him favourite? Might need attribution
  • Sky Sports... done. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• his first Challenge Cup honour, honour again. Is this the correct terminology?
  • Explained above and not a big deal AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• his 2011 tally currently stands currently has the same issues as as of.
  • Is the season still going? AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
    • No, the club season is over now so I've finalised his numbers. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Representative career

• As a response to this in anticipation for the 2009 Four Nations tournament, Grammar

• Re-jigged. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• for Tony Smith's England team Its not really his team
  • Had a similar discussion about this wording in another review about another English sports player. It appears to be common to describe sports teams as belonging to the coach so will have no issue if it is kept here. AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've seen it enough in sports journalism to think it's here to stay! I can't wait for a coach to come out and say "it's not my bloody team, I don't own them". No wonder they get fired so often. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• although the pairing between Eastmond and Tomkins was again impressive. Impressive is a peacock word.

• Attributed the "impressive" adjective to Sky Sports. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• DAB Kevin Brown

• Fixed. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Sam was controversially booed by England supporters from opposing clubs within the Headingley crowd at Leeds. controversially should be avoided.
  • Or at least explain why it is controversial. Probably easier to just remove. AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Dropped it. I think the England captain criticising the booing allows us to give it that adverb without it being OR, but happy to go without it. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• • • • I will admit a personal aversion to the overuse of controversial in sports articles. Just recently I was involved in a discussion with a few editors who wished to label a red card that was correctly given as controversial because the fans and coach didn't like it. AIRcorn (talk) 06:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead

• Tomkins was born in Milton Keynes, and Should the comma be after the and?
  • Or should they (the commas) be removed altogether. AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've just split the sentence. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Tomkins' family moved to Wigan so he could play at Wigan St. Patricks, Would mention it is a feeder club.
  • I get the impression that they didn't move there for St Patricks, but to give him a shot at the Warriors. AIRcorn (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Unfortunately the source is dead, so I've removed the asserted causation. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• He made his league debut against Harlequins RL on his way to 27 appearances for the season, scoring fifteen tries on the way. Repitition "on his way"

• Simplified. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Under new head coach Michael Maguire, in 2010 Tomkins switched from stand-off to fullback, also appearing occasionally at scrum-half, on the way to Wigan's first league title since 1998 and his own first honour as a player. Would consider splitting this sentence as it contains a lot of information.

• Split. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The primary editor seems to have disappeared, though some changes have been made. Should the article be failed if the editor's not back soon? Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I am about to take a break now and I left a message a few days ago at the nominators talk page informing him of this. Unless someone else is willing to finish off the review or he returns very soon I will fail it. AIRcorn (talk) 02:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Final Comments

Found a new person willing to look at the article so will make some final comments here with what I believe is necessary for this to get to GA status. I have split the comments section above just below where GW finished. AIRcorn (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• (copied from above) The 2007 season would prove to be Tomkins' last before making his first-grade debut a year later. Few issues with this paragraph. It is not very clear what team Tomkins is playing for throughout, I originally though St. Patricks, but at the end I was not so sure. No other seasons are mentioned so starting with "The 2007 season" doesn't flow very well with the previous paragraph. In its current form the U18 win for England doesn't fit with the rest of the paragraph. I feel this whole paragraph needs to be structured a bit better. It starts with an undisclosed 2007 season, talks about the club's under 18s, England under 18's and senior under 21's side.

• I think the issues with the paragraph are derived from it trying to do too much with not many sources; understandably, there aren't many sources for a season in which he wasn't yet playing first-grade. I've amalgamated the paragraph with the one previously and condensed it significantly. See what you think. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• • • Much better. AIRcorn (talk) 06:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Along with James "Jim" Leytham, Stanley "Stan" Moorhouse, Peter Norburn, Keith Fielding, Stuart Wright, and Martin Offiah, having scored four tries, Sam Tomkins jointly holds the record for the most tries scored in an England match, scoring four tries against Wales at Leigh Sports Village, Leigh on 29 October 2011. A new sentence that needs some prose work; repetition of four tries (maybe just remove the first instance as the sentence would still work), overlinking tries and Leigh needs DABing.

• Re-done that sentence. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to finish this off Mkativerata. Spot checked sources are fine. Happy to pass. AIRcorn (talk) 06:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

No, thank you for the very detailed and comprehensive review. (And thank you to GW for the hard work getting this 99.9% of the way there). --Mkativerata (talk) 06:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Merging 2010 and 2011 seasons

I'm not making a new section for every single year. By the time he retires this article could be a dissertation. Time for some organisations.

WP:RL's own MoS 'guidelines' stipulate that a debut season should stand alone as a section. Since Tomkins only made two (maybe one?) first-grade appearance in 2008, I personally regard 2009 as the "proper" debut season. Therefore I'm starting this from 2010 onwards. Now his long-term future has been decided, the close of the 2011 season seems an appropriate point to end this chapter. I'll be merging the 2010 and 2011 seasons together, cropping some of the excessive detail, and starting a new section from 2012 to 2015, when the three-year no cross-code transfer clause runs out on Tomkins contract. Any comments greatly appreciated, especially on whether to merge 2008+2009. GW(talk) 13:58, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that sounds like an excellent idea. In a long article, I think the 2008 season will be too thin to stand on its own. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

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Avid & Keen

I have reverted on this article, and in a number of other places by the same editor the same edit. Please do not describe people as "keen" or "avid" football supporters. The sources you are adding don't necessarily say this, and it is a matter of opinion anyway. It should be enough to describe them as a supporter, without giving an opinion of how much of a supporter they are. At what point do they become "avid" and why are none of them not "avid"? Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)