Talk:Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama

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North8000 (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

When was the formation of EK Samastha?

@Spworld2, discuss here first. Both groups claim to be the real Samastha. Moreover, both have exactly the same name. In addition, both have the same history before the reorganisation in 1989. So both should be treated equally on the pages of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). Neutralhappy (talk) 07:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Samastha (AP Faction) was separated from the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama formed in 1926. Samastha (AP Faction) was formed in 1989 under the leadership of Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar

,But why are you Samastha (AP Faction) article editor repeating old year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama ??. Write the Samastha (AP Faction) you are editing, the year it was created, and its background and history.

Do not add the same content to an existing article in Samastha (AP Faction)'

If the history and content of the Samastha (AP Faction) you are writing is the same as that of the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, the article will not survive and will have to be merged into the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama

Earlier many made the article as Samastha (AP Faction) and merged it with Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, founded in 1926 was, according to several sources (The New Indian Express, The Hindu, Scroll.in, onmanorama.com, News18, Deccan Chronicle, 7—Dool News [Wikipedia page], 8— Southlive, 9—Samakalika Malayalam [Wikipedia page]), split in 1989 into two organisations exactly with the same name the organisation had before the split. Looking at the term split linguistically, it means all the new ones formed after the split have a shared history, thus a common time of formation. Thus both Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) are to be treated in Wikipedia equally in terms of their name, their time of formation, the founder and the rest of the matter pior to the split.

Two Samasthas of EK and EK faction Sunnis claim theirs is the real Samastha. That means both do not agree the other one is real. There is a source which says the AP faction claims theirs is the real Samastha. Perod Abdurahman Saqafi, secretary of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), says in a Malayalam YouTube video that the Samastha in the registrar office is that of the AP faction. Note that according to the AP faction, Samastha was not split but reorganised in 1989. Neutralhappy (talk) 12:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Sources that say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989

The following sources say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration, which means Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989 when the split happened.

• The Hindu says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centenary. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• onmanorama.com says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• The New Indian Express says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• The website of MediaOne says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• The Times of India says about the inauguration of 99th foundation day of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• Manorama News says about beginning of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• PressReader says about Kanthapuram claiming to be the original one, and about justifying with the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• Mathrubhumi says about the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• Madhyamam says about the promulgation of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• malabarnews.com says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• ETV Bharat says about the declaration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus ETV Bharat like several others have accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) to celebrate the centennial.
• Kasargod Vartha says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.

So articles on respective Samasthas should be treated equally in terms of the time of formation, the founder, and the rest of things until the split in 1989, everywhere including in the infobox. Neutralhappy (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 22 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) SerialNumber54129 12:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

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Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama → Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) – There are two organisations exactly with the same name. So disambiguation is needed. The most used term for disambiguation in reliable sources is "EK faction". Neutralhappy (talk) 19:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 07:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama of EK Sunnis should be moved to Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). There are several sources that use the term "EK faction". This is the most widely used term for disambiguation. Besides, read the following:

1) Mathrubhumi says "The EK faction of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama". Mathrubhumi also says "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)".

2) onmanorama.com says "the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)".

3) Hindustan Times says "the EK faction of the Samastha Kerala Jamiyyathul Ulama (SAMASTHA)".

4) The New Indian Express says "EK faction of Samastha Kerala Jemiyyathul Ulama".

5) Scroll.in uses the term "EK faction" 9 times.

6) The Hindu uses the term EK faction.

7) News18 says "the EK faction of the Sunnis - the Samastha Kerala Jemiyyathul Ulema" and uses the term "EK faction" 5 times.

8) The News Minute uses the term "EK faction". Neutralhappy (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:RM#Nom: "Nomination already implies that the nominator supports the name change, and nominators should refrain from repeating this recommendation on a separate bulleted line." Dekimasuよ! 06:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Removed the bullet and the term "support", though it does not imply or mean the withdrawal of the support to the move. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment There is an ambiguity in this discussion that an editor supports it.

For another article, the editor takes the decision himself. Something about this editor feels a little COI ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Having nothing to say or adduce any source, resorting to accusing someone of having a COI (WP:COI) is not a good thing. Neutralhappy (talk) 07:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose : Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama is an organization founded in 1926 which is still active in India even after 97 years, it is officially known and legally registered under this name and has never changed its name[1].

However, in 1986, under the leadership of Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar, some members of this organization left this Samasta according to their ideas and formed a new organization in its name. Also known as AP Samastha(Samastha (AP Faction)), also know as : named after its founder Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar (Kanthapuram function)

Editor(@ Neutralhappy) who continue to edit articles of AP Samastha(Samastha (AP Faction)) claim that they are also old Samastha, and edit [[this page and the AP Samastha page based on this argument. As part of that, this page is also being discussed by this editor for such a change

Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar formed AP Samastha , which was formed in 1986 and split off from Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama to form a new entity.

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulamas article continues under this name and is officially known as Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The source you cited uses the term "ഇ.കെ സമസ്ത വിഭാഗം", which literally means "EK Samastha faction". Moreover, the source source you cited does not say only EK Samastha is known as Samastha or Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama. Furthermore, the source says the Samastha split in 1989. In addition, the source does not say nothing about something being the official name of an organisation; nor that the EK Samastha is legally registered as "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama". So in conclusion, what are you citing that source for? Neutralhappy (talk) 09:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Islam/Sunni Islam task force, WikiProject Islam, and Noticeboard for India-related topics have been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 07:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.