Talk:Sampson Hosking/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: JohnFromPinckney (talk · contribs) 11:30, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll be starting this later today/tonight. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:30, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Thejoebloggsblog, I'm sorry for the delay; this took longer than I expected to get through. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 09:54, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Generally, yes, at least the writing and spelling. But: see below for my (copious) grammar and punctuation notes.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   Yes, with exception of rather sparse lede, as noted in Coverage notes below.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   Looks very good, with the exceptions of infobox and birth/death dates. See Referencing notes below.

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   No problems found, nothing stands out to me. Also run through Earwig's Copyvio Detector.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   See Coverage notes below.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   See last item in Coverage notes below.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   See Images notes below

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   See Images notes below

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Notes

Writing, grammar, punctuation

On the first run-through, "fail" mostly for the large quantity of nits I was able to pick. These are all easily fixable, though they may take quite a bit of time. The fundamental writing is solid (although I'm allergic to "would go on to be" formulations); there are mainly just a few phrasing I think need improvement, plus a big heap of styling and punctuation quibbles:

• Infobox: I would decap all but the first item in "Centre, Rover, Wing, Forward"

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Lead sentence uses "Sampson 'Shine' Hosking"; I'd expect MOS:DOUBLE quotation marks, as used in most of the article. Another example is 'Port Adelaide's 150 Greatest Players' under Accolades.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Newspapers mentioned frequently in prose and captions (OK), usually without necessary italics (NOK).

Done (I think?) Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Early life

• I'd expect a comma after "Hosking grew up in close proximity to the Port River".

Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Change "...alongside other family members, a workplace where he would remain employed" to "...alongside other family members, where he remained employed" (strike "a workplace" and "would").

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• In "When Hosking was very young he dislocated his left elbow and as a result his father James, out of an abundance...", I'm missing at least one comma, as it seems to run on breathlessly. Maybe even strike "as a result"?

  Done (Rephrased and comma added) Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:25, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Decap quotations integrated into text: "would often joke "who is this H. Sampson anyway?" and that "he is picked...".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• "Centrals...lost the... Grand Final to the Norwood seconds in 1906". Capitalize "Seconds".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• I believe "short brimmed hat" needs hyphenation (unless the brimmed hat was just short).

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Apostrophe missing in "His fathers caution". Hyphenate "long-sleeved guernsey".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Football career

• Should this be "Playing career" or "Football-playing career"? The next section is "Coaching career", but that's also football.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 09:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• Hyphenate "by a then record crowd for football" and "in a 1908 post season game".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Run-on "kicking a goal during the match but it was not enough with West Adelaide winning" needs breaking up, prob. with commas after "match" and "enough".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• "In June 1912 Hosking was elected to the captaincy of the club by his team-mates..." Two points, possibly regarding AusEng: is "elected to the captaincy" a set way to describe this, or can we use the more direct "was elected captain"? And is "team-mates" the modern term, or ought we use "teammates" (which seems correct to me).

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 01:16, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• "Port Adelaide would go on to be undefeated during the minor round that year but would stumble ..." Please avoid "would" constructions when not needed. Why not "Port Adelaide was undefeated ... but stumbled ..." or "remained undefeated ... before stumbling ..." or similar?
• Hyphenate "head to head".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:18, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• We could use a link, if not a clearer explanation in "in conjunction with Eight Hours Day", perhaps to Eight-hour day#Australia. It sounds (to this modern sports spectator) like a company who sponsored a match. Also: possessive apostrophe in "states best players".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 04:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• As a non-ARF-fan I find "utilise knocking on the ball in congestion" unclear. Whatever does that mean?

  Done (rephrased slightly but main change was adding hyperlink). Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• "the lack of pace in the Port Adelaide side was notable". May I suggest: "the lack of pace in the Port Adelaide side was said to be noticeable"? Only one report noted it, and that used the word noticeable.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 01:42, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• "... those being the 200m, 400m along with a Sheffield." Well, I tried to figure out what a Sheffield is, since it's not linked and I've never heard of it. That what the source uses, also without explanation, so I guess we needn't feel too bad about repeating it, but still: can you provide some indication of what this is? Or was, back in olden times? All I can find now are running events in Sheffield.

  There is something called the Bay Sheffield that is still held in Glenelg (which is referred to as "The Bay" sometimes). I'm not sure what a Sheffield means in regards to running though.Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 05:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  Okay, I expect I'll pass it as it is, then. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

  @JohnFromPinckney: I think I have figured out what a Sheffield is in running. It is race run over 130 yards.Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 10:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

  Oohhh... a Sheffield. That 130-yard race. Sure. ;-) But if it's really 130 yards, then let's make sure to add that, as a 118.87m race seems unlikely. You can use the {{convert|130|yd|m|2}} template to produce "130-yard (118.87 m) Sheffield". — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 23:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 06:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• Italicize 100 Years with the Magpies.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• "The clubs best result for the season" needs possessive apostrophe, as do many other similar usages. Search for "clubs" thoughout and see where it's being used as a possessive (it's not in all cases).

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  Found and fixed two others: "at the clubs final training session" and "a blackboard lectures on their previous weeks play". — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Coaching career

• In "subsequently forcing Sampson to blood a large number of juniors", is there a better verb than "blood"? I can't even find out what it means (I understand it in context, mostly, but it doesn't seem to be a word we should use in an encyclopedia).

  Done (replaced "blood" with "give league debuts") Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks. I figured that's about what it meant, but the verb in that sense was hard for me to find. Can you also add a "to" or something in there, like "to give league debuts TO a large number"? — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• Fix "Port Adelaide's first premiership since his Hoskings departure at the end of 1921."

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 05:11, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• "...in the Adelaide Advertiser that "This blending of skill... should have lowercase "this". Also: italicize Adelaide Advertiser and use single quote marks for 'Shine' used twice later in that quotation.

  Done, as GoingBatty appears to have fixed this one. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• Change "On the 1 January 1936 it was revealed by The News (Adelaide) that ..." to "On 1 January 1936 it was revealed by The News that ..." That is, strike "the", pipe the wikilink, and add italics.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 01:47, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• Hyphenate "a narrow three-point win over Sturt".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Remove "would" constructions in the "In 1939..." and "At the start of the 1940..." paragraphs. The middle two sentences in the 1940 pgraph need fixing, anyway, as they are not grammatical (and "June 8" has the wrong format).

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 02:12, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

  "At the start of the 1940...etc." still has: "This was announced just after a West Torrens had played Sturt on 8 June.[101] At this stage of the season Hosking left West Torrens they were just inside the SANFL top four." Extra "a" still in first sentence. Second sentence still ungrammatical to me; seems like there's a word or two missing (or extra?). — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

  Does it read better now? Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 07:10, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

  Yes! Makes much more sense, thanks. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 23:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

• Also, in "for the remainder of the season in Sampson Hosking's absence", strike the unnecessary "in Sampson Hosking's absence".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 05:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Strike "the" in "Adelaide Oval on the 26 September 1942".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• "This would be Sampson Hosking's last game as an SANFL league coach as he would announce his retirement at the start of 1944 handing over his Port–Torrens responsibilities to Mal Drury." Use "was", please. A comma after "1944" would be clearer, too.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 04:31, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Change "such as Bill Martin, who Sampson would run up and down the length of Adelaide Oval with whilst practicing passing" to "such as Bill Martin, with whom Sampson would run up and down the length of Adelaide Oval whilst practicing passing".

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:54, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Possessive apostrophe in "previous weeks play."

  Done; fixed by me. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Horse racing

• "He would share this hobby" → "He shared this hobby"

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:57, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

See also

• Headings (except "Grand Finals") in See Also need decapping to sentence case per MOS:HEAD.

  Done? Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, looks good to me, thanks. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• The list items (ordered and unordered) in SA should have no full stop, per MOS:LISTFORMAT.

Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:42, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Referencing

I am quite impressed with the fastidious referencing. There are only a few issues, the bulk of which are stylistic (titles in CAPS) or the matter of reuse:

• Infobox has a lot of diverse statistics and info, with "Source: AustralianFootball.com" at the very bottom. All that stuff is not on that page, so for what, exactly, is AustralianFootball.com the source? And where did all the other stuff come from?

  That thing is linked to template:Infobox AFL biography. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:51, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  Ok, managed to figure out how to replace it. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:55, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• We need good sources for the dates and places of his birth and death.

  How about this one – Rucci, Michaelangelo (1 July 2020). "Port Gazette: Alberton's Shining Star". portadelaidefc.com.au. Retrieved 8 October 2021. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:55, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  Lovely, good work. It's too bad nobody tells us anything about why he died. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

• Use named references and reuse them. Currently, citations 14 & 19 ("Fluke") appear to be identical, as do 5 & 9; 47 & 48; 52, 55 & 57; 60 & 62; 106 & 107; probably others. The ref 112 (following "as a chess player would") has "South" in the title misspelt (as Trove misscanned it), but ref 114 (following "these blackboard lectures") has it right.

  I have a bit of trouble fixing this up. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:42, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  Would you like me to help on this? I don't want to start working on it if you're on the case or keen to do it yourself. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

  @JohnFromPinckney: I think I sorted it. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 09:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

  My eyes have gone crossed looking at these, but I don't see any glaring duplicates, so I believe you've handled them all. Good work. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 23:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

• Some caps corrections are called for, e.g., "LIKE OLD TIMES". I know that's how the paper printed it, but MOS:CONFORMTITLE and MOS:ALLCAPS direct us to use title case.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 09:18, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• No need for ref 115 (No Smoking) to be repeated after both sentences in the same paragraph.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 06:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• A small styling matter I noticed: [[The Mail (Adelaide)]] should be piped to [[The Mail (Adelaide)|The Mail]], giving The Mail in the emitted citation. There may be other instances like this; I did not search.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:30, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Coverage

• The body seems to cover it pretty well. There is a lot of detail, but it keeps moving logically and I do not find a lot of crufty trivia, although revealing that he had two children (mentioned in his wife's death notice) would be appropriate (and was his whole life only football, horse racing and a bit of bowling?).
• However, the three-sentence (and truly concise) lede is rather short relative to the length of the article. For example, in regard to his coaching, it says he was "accomplished football coach successfully leading Port Adelaide", which is somewhat understating his apparent effect and visibility even away from the pitch. Can we expand the summary a bit on his impact as coach (and maybe player) in the lede?

  Added a little bit more.Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 02:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

• We say nothing about his death. He resigned due to vague health issues, but then what? This is a large issue for me. There's a headstone photo for him and his wife (death dates only) at Find a Grave, but can you find something more substantial?
  • @Thejoebloggsblog: Sorry to come at you on this again at the last minute, after I was away for so long (and sorry about that, too!), but do you have anything about the cause of death? — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:01, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

    @JohnFromPinckney: I found the 1974 Port Adelaide Football Club Annual Report and on page 12 it says "...Our oldest living life member Shine Hosking who won the Magarey Medal in 1910, passes away after a long illness..."

    Cool enough! Changing to "died" in our voice (MOS:EUPHEMISM), but all okay. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 10:26, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

• No need for repeated full name "Sampson Hosking" per MOS:FULLNAME. I see no need for details like "Tuesday", "Thursday", etc.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

  Still three cases of inappropriate first name:

  "...the first year Sampson was coach..."

  "...subsequently forcing Sampson to give league debuts..."

  "...with whom Sampson would run up and down the length..."

  One "Thursday" left in a ref. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 03:44, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• The australianfootball.com ref mentioned in the infobox has a paragraph about his self-confessed reputation as "one of the dirtiest players who ever stripped", but I don't see this mentioned in the article, only that he won a fairness award (once, although australianfootball.com says "twice"). Maybe something should be added to "Playing style", near the booing bit at the end. Or is there a reason you've left this out (or have I somehow overlooked it)?

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• We don't explicitly give his nationality in the lede (or anywhere), but given that the word "Australian" apperas twice in the first sentence, I am loathe to try to shoehorn another one in there. I think it is suitably clear to the average reader that we don't need to do anything further here.

  Added first sentence in early life so that it now states that he was born in "Glanville, South Australia". Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

  Neatly done; this must surely be sufficient for a GA. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 23:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Images

• Currently unsure about the caricature, which claims to be PD in the US due to publication before 1926. It was published in Australia, so I want to check that there's no problem there. Many other images make the same claim to PD in the US. I will come back to this later.

  Apparently you adjusted the rationale on 18 Jan., so I'm happy. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

• The Steeplechase image is a nice addition for the Horse racing section, but it's a pity the photo is of such poor quality. The source article in The Advertiser (via Trove) has a better version, where one can make out the horses trailing Hosking's steed. It would be good if we could get a better image, but I certainly won't deny GA because of this one.

  If you want to change the photo thats fine by me. Oakbank is a much more prestigious race than Murray Bridge though. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 13:20, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

  I wasn't thinking of using a different race, necessarily, so much as hoping for a better version of this shot. It's rather grainy, having been scanned, copied, cropped, enlarged and what have you, so it's hard to make out the contents. I'm no good with images, though, so I don't know how best to get something closer to the paper's original version. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

• Almost every caption uses "Sampson Hosking" instead of, at most, "Hosking". And non-sentence captions (as in the infobox image) should have no full stop, per MOS:CAPFRAG.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 12:03, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• The rather long infobox competes with the first 6 images for space, leading to a feeling of crowdedness, and some MOS:SANDWICH effects. Is there some way to move a couple of these images farther down (or completely out)? I won't hold back GA for this, but I think the second pic (in his Centrals uniform) could be moved down to the start of "Football career" and the other images shifted accordingly. And the "Collingwood Disconsolate" shot from 1910 might not meet "appropriate" use, as it very poorly helps the reader see how disconsolate Hosking's opponents were. You can't actually see anything except about eight unidentifiable figures on a pitch. Would you consider throwing this one out?

  "Collingwood Disconsolate" image removed. Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• @JohnFromPinckney: From what I can tell copyright over all photos and artistic works in Australia has expired if they were produced before 1 January 1955. This is stated on the first page of this PDF produced by the Australian Copyright Council [[1]] Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 07:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. I'm not worried about the availability of the image or our use of it on this article; it's just the rationale attached to the caricature file I mentioned above is based on US copyright law, which I believe shouldn't apply here. But that's the image's problem, not this article's. I still intend to follow up with someone about this but I won't hold the GA for it. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:01, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

  Apparently you adjusted the rationale on 18 Jan., so I'm happy. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

New, 11 January

@Thejoebloggsblog: I've noticed your first slew of fixes (thanks!), and as your reward, I have found a few more items. Regards,— JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• "...the 'most improved junior' for his...": why now single quotes? Should still be double.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Rm from infobox per MOS:SMALL – FIXED by me. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done

• Fremantle Herald needed italics and wikilink correction (from The Fremantle Herald) – FIXED by me. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done

• "...victory, The South Australian Register noted that Hosking...": decap "the", no need to pipe (just use "...the South Australian Register...")

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 05:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• "...in writing for The Register, Steve McKee": decap "the", delink per MOS:REPEATLINK

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Uses in refs like The Advertiser (Adelaide) should consistently be The Advertiser, as the "(Adelaide) is just Wikipedia's disambiguation, not part of the paper's actual title.

  Done Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 06:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• CAPFRAG: "No Smoking" edict to his players. – FIXED by me. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done

• Delink Magarey Medals. – FIXED by me. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done

• I happened to notice several refs use a cite template with something like |pages=21. This should be (throughout) |page=21(with whatever page number), when we're citing only a single page.

  @Thejoebloggsblog: I typed this wrong originally, perhaps you didn't understand it?. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 11:01, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done? @JohnFromPinckney:Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Thejoebloggsblog: Yes, done! Thanks for slogging through all my nitpicky details. Good work! — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 10:26, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

DYK

@JohnFromPinckney: Do you know much about the DYK rules? Apparently it is only for new articles. Is there an exception for newly appraised good articles? One fact about Hosking that I think is quirky was him selecting himself to be in the side whilst coach in his 40s.Thejoebloggsblog (talk) 06:56, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I do. This article wouldn't qualify, I'm afraid. It is indeed for new articles (7 days old) but a special case of "new" is when the article's been expanded fivefold in the last seven days, which this page hasn't been. (It's five times bigger than what it was in mid-September, so we'd be a little late to the DYK party.) — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Thejoebloggsblog, should this pass its Good Article review, it would be eligible for DYK. Please see 1. f. under DYK criteria. You will need to nominate it within seven days of the article becoming a GA. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:28, 1 February 2022 (UTC)