Talk:Sasaki Tōichi

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bilorv (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

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• ... that Japanese China expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised by Ōkawa Shūmei for referring to Sun Yat-sen with the honorific sensei? Source: Nihon rikugun to chūgoku: shinatsū ni miru yume to satetsu (Tobe 2016, section: Kokumintō kabure)

Improved to Good Article status by RGloucester (talk). Self-nominated at 18:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC).

• Reviewed: Expo MRT station

• The article was promoted to Good Article status in time. I assume good faith on the references that I can't read. A QPQ has been completed. However, the Major works section needs to be referenced and the hook is boring to a broad audience. The hook being interesting to someone would require a great deal of background knowledge. A reader would need to not only know who Ōkawa Shūmei and Sun Yat-sen are, but they would also need to know information about honorifics and when using a certain honorific is not acceptable. SL93 (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

  If that's how you feel about it, I withdraw the nomination. Clearly a topic so marginal as this does not belong on Wikipedia's front page. RGloucester — ☎ 05:24, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• Just chiming in to say that I think the topic is interesting based on skimming the article, so I hope it isn't withdrawn. His lede is pretty interesting! Maybe use a hook from these facts: "He later served as chief military advisor to the Japanese puppet state Manchukuo, and during the Second Sino-Japanese War, he was involved in perpetrating the Nanjing massacre." QuakerSquirrel (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
• @SL93 and RGloucester: If I can propose the althook ALT1: ... that at almost sixty years old, Sasaki Tōichi was recalled to active military duty? an ALT1a could be the same fact followed with "but saw no combat before being taken as a prisoner of war?" Now, DYK doesn't care about how obscure or interesting an article's subject is (though Tōichi seems very interesting) - this which seems to have been a common misinterpretation recently, but really DYK cares how interesting you can make a hook. The original hook here may not interest a wide audience because - and it even says in the hook about being an expert on China - it relies on the reader knowing why referring to Sun Yat-sen as "sensei" would be bad. How much of English Wikipedia's audience knows that? Kingsif (talk) 14:00, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  They should not need to know anything, because, as you might notice, there are hyperlinks that will provide the necessary contextual information. Certainly, anyone with an interest in Asian history would have some idea of the meaning, and might have their interest piqued, encouraging them to check the linked articles. I don't really see how every hook must appeal to every person, that everyone must immediately understand the full meaning of what's being said. This seems like an impossible endeavour. I, for example, would never click on a sport or pop-culture related hook. I would, however, click on one related to Asian history. I have nothing against your proposed hooks, but I can't say I find them particularly interesting at all. What is particularly unique about being recalled to service in one's old age? A common story indeed, at the end of the Second World War. In any case, I will no longer participate here, given that it is clearly a waste of my time. I apologise for the inconvenience. RGloucester — ☎ 14:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  I agree that A0 is fine. I read it and think, "Huh. I wonder what sensei means, such that a Japanese expert on China would be chastised for using it in reference to Sun?" EEng 14:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  The nominator mentioned my main issue by saying it would be interesting to "anyone with an interest in Asian history". Great, but what about the hook will appeal to anyone else?SL93 (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  I also never said anything about "every person" needing to be interested. SL93 (talk) 14:52, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  You don't have to have an interest in Asian history, just a general curiosity about things in general. Frankly, you could not know anything about any of this stuff but still be intrigued that some expert was chastised for using a certain word. Good hooks are either fun/surprising facts, or intriguing in some way; this one's the latter. EEng 14:56, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not sure if it's so simple as just having a general curiosity about things in general. That would refer to most people. I do think that the current hook could be reworked somehow. SL93 (talk) 15:08, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not sure if it's so simple as just having a general curiosity about things in general. That would refer to most people. – No idea what that means. EEng 16:15, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  Ok. I can live with you not understanding. SL93 (talk) 16:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

What I'll say, SL93, is that I've found the average person is much less curious than I. Much less curious than the average WPian. The average person I interact with has almost zero curiosity, actually. I strongly suspect the average reader of the WP main page is more curious than that, as if they weren't, they wouldn't be reading the MP. But IMO the average person has no curiosity. At all. —valereee (talk) 21:18, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• ALT2 ... that Japanese China expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised for referring to Chinese "Father of the Nation" Sun Yat-sen as sensei? Something like this would interest me. SL93 (talk) 15:05, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• I like this one! QuakerSquirrel (talk) 15:26, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I like ALT1 a lot! I would definitely click on that to find out why. —valereee (talk) 16:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC) For what it's worth, I read it as maybe he was an expert on Japanese China. Maybe reword all of the hooks to: ... that Chinese-affairs expert Sasaki Tōichi etc., and just leave out the Japanese altogether? His name is obviously Japanese so maybe that part isn't as important? —valereee (talk) 16:18, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• @Valereee: I'm not sure if you meant ALT2. If that is what you meant, it could be - ALT2a ... that Chinese affairs expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised for referring to Chinese "Father of the Nation" Sun Yat-sen as sensei? I'm not sure if the dash is needed for Chinese affairs. SL93 (talk) 20:57, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

SL93, I was thinking ALT1: ... that at almost sixty years old, Sasaki Tōichi was recalled to active military duty? an ALT1a could be the same fact followed with "but saw no combat before being taken as a prisoner of war?" as I had only been vaguely aware of callups of elderly vets. —valereee (talk) 21:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Valereee I added some hooks below based on what has been said so far. I'm hoping that the nominator returns to at least give any opinions on a rewording of the hook. I was afraid that an interesting to a broad audience comment would cause this to happen. It usually does. SL93 (talk) 21:19, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• @RGloucester: I'm sorry that you feel that you wasted your time, but there is usually a way to word a hook to make it more interesting to a broad audience. Right now, we are using the same fact in a different format. SL93 (talk) 20:57, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Making it easier for hook suggestions.

ALT1: ... that at almost sixty years old, Chinese affairs expert Sasaki Tōichi was recalled to active military duty?

ALT1a: ... that at almost sixty years old, Chinese affairs expert Sasaki Tōichi was recalled to active military duty before being taken as a prisoner of war?

ALT2: ... that Japanese China expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised for referring to Chinese "Father of the Nation" Sun Yat-sen as sensei?

ALT2a: ... that Chinese affairs expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised for referring to Chinese "Father of the Nation" Sun Yat-sen as sensei? SL93 (talk) 21:16, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I like ALT1a particularly. —valereee (talk) 21:22, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• @SL93: I agree, hooks may well be improved, and my proposal was no exception. Instead of offering any constructive advice on what you deemed wrong and how to fix it, you simply decried the proposal as 'boring'. This hardly seems in the collaborative spirit. Moreover, it is clear there is a double standard when it comes to 'interest to a broad audience'. Who defines this 'broad audience'? Looking at the front page now, I can see things listed that are clearly of specialist interest. Why is it that this topic has been singled out for its so-called 'boringness'? I wonder.

In any case, I thought the purpose of DYK was to inform the reader, to help them learn about a subject they might have a passing interest in or otherwise be intrigued by. My proposal was written in that spirit. This is not a paper encyclopaedia. If someone doesn't know what something means, but are interested, they can LEARN that meaning by clicking the relevant link. Indeed, is that not what we want to do here, to get readers to fan out across our articles and learn something new? I wonder, indeed. I appreciate that you've started to provide some constructive advice, but by this point, it has become apparent that the process itself is poisoned.

In as much as you asked my opinion, I will say that I oppose ALT1 and ALT1 on the grounds that they are yawn-inducing, and do not do justice to the actual substance of the life of the article's subject. As for the rest, I could not care less...but it seems strange to think your revised proposals, which don't even hyperlink the word sensei, are any better at making things clear to the reader in the manner you initially stated was necessary. All in all, I think it is best that I leave this horrid corner of the encyclopaedia, and never return. Thank you! RGloucester — ☎ 21:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

DYK does again what it does best: disappoint everyone, each in a special way most suited to that particular person. EEng 22:01, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

RGloucester I will accept your withdraw. I could explain why I chose to word my alt hooks the way that I did and linking sensei is an easy change, but you seem to not be interested in any constructive discussion despite your mention of constructive advice above. You going on about why you feel that a broad audience can't be figured out doesn't matter unless that rule is removed from DYK. SL93 (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• I withdraw my withdrawal, and propose consideration of the following:

ALT3: ... that Chinese affairs expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised for referring to Chinese "Father of the Nation" Sun Yat-sen with the honorific sensei?

I make this proposal with the caveat that I request a new reviewer, as there has been a complete breakdown in relations. RGloucester — ☎ 23:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Fine by me. I can't approve that hook anyway because it's too close to my suggestion. The article itself is already perfect except for the works section. SL93 (talk) 23:57, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

It is not obvious to me that works sections need citations. Even FAs do not provide such, and this article passed the GA process without issue. Either way, the existence of these works can be easily verified on Worldcat or via the authority control template. RGloucester — ☎ 00:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

RGloucester I'm not going off my opinion at all about the works needing to be cited. It's just what has always been done in my memory of DYK, including by Yoninah who was the biggest DYK reviewer. If it doesn't really need to be cited for DYK, then whatever. I'm not the reviewer anymore anyway. SL93 (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to provide links to Worldcat or whatever is required, I just haven't seen that done before, and I'm not sure whether this would qualify as a 'citation' in the normal sense. RGloucester — ☎ 00:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

The last thing that I will add to this discussion is that if "Father of the Nation" is used, that term needs to also be added to the article. SL93 (talk) 00:33, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

You're the one that proposed to include "Father of the Nation".........none of the sources used in the article refer to Sun as such in the context of his interaction with Sasaki... RGloucester — ☎ 00:35, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

RGloucester I know all of that. It can be added to the article easily with a source that refers to him with that term. I was going to do that much earlier, but then an argument happened. SL93 (talk) 00:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

• For what it's worth I thought the original hook was fine, and that ALT3 works as a compromise. The only issue I see with ALT3 is that it repeats Chinese twice, and I'm not sure if we really need to mention the "Father of the Nation" part and just link to Sun Yat-sen. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

• I'm just going to be bold and approve the original hook now that another editor has added support for it. I'm still unhappy with the constant amount of assumptions that were made about me though. SL93 (talk) 02:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I do not support the original hook. I much prefer removing reference to Ōkawa Shūmei, which I think was a good change. I will propose another:

ALT4: ... that China expert Sasaki Tōichi was chastised for referring to Sun Yat-sen with the honorific sensei?

This is more concise. RGloucester — ☎ 02:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

SL93 (talk) 03:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Give it to ALT4! I know that people who are relative subject-matter experts like RGloucester seems to be do get annoyed at hooks which use more mundane facts that are more relatable, which is why I proposed alts about being old and recalled to military, as I would assume most people know that's uncommon and would want to know what about this guy means the military wanted him back. Of course, I'm nor saying being an expert and wanting specialist hooks is necessarily a bad thing, very active DYK contributor Gerda is just like that, but there needs to be some give; i.e. when writing a specialist hook, being more concise is usually preferable. So ALT4 works for me because it keeps its focus on the one fact, though I still feel it may direct readers more to Sun Yat-sen's article (rather than Tōichi's) to find out what about him means sensei was wrong. If it's added to the article, some variation on adding "Father of the Nation" as suggested above may ameliorate this. Kingsif (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, the frank reality is that him being recalled was simply a matter of desperation...the only thing the sources say is that the division he was assigned to lead was hastily assembled and barely equipped. They did not need Sasaki, so much as they needed whatever bodies were available. But, I suppose that's neither here nor there. As for Sun Yat-sen, my concern with "Father of the Nation" is that this term has PoV issues, as it is only used in the RoC. The PRC does not use this term. And, moreover, it seems odd to go out of one's way to shove it into the article without any good reason, merely to create a hook. Perhaps someone can propose a more neutral description of Sun. RGloucester — ☎ 17:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm promoting ALT4, as I'm seeing no objections to its use by the nominator or the reviewer. It is based on ALT0, which garnered limited opposition that was later withdrawn, and support from at least two independent editors. I'll also have to AGF on the foreign-language source. Feel free to discuss this promotion at my talk page if it is a misunderstanding of this discussion or if issues with ALT4 remain. — Bilorv (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2021 (UTC)