Talk:ScotRail (disambiguation)

Scope

This article seems uncertain of its scope. At times it is restricted to National Expresses, at other points it also covers British Rail, and in a few areas even First is included. Perhaps the British Rail and National Express sections should be separated, and the First information removed to First ScotRail? David Arthur (talk) 21:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

New ScotRail brand/Merger with First ScotRail

Transport Scotland have now introduced a new ScotRail brand, to be rolled out across Scotland. Therefore, this page should be moved to ScotRail (train operating company), and a new page created about this new brand. This page would also include information on the origins of the brand from British Rail. See this link for more details. --Jorvik (talk) 20:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This page and the current First ScotRail pages should be merged. Seeing as ScotRail will now be the brand no matter who is operating one concise ScotRail page with historical information on the brand and past franchises along with information on the company today would be desirable. (Jacqueline2008 (talk) 11:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC))

If we're going to have one article covering the entire history of ScotRail, which sounds like a good idea to me, isn't the suffix (train operating company) unneeded? David Arthur (talk) 13:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, simply ScotRail seems the way forward, with older pages redirecting to it. (Jacqueline2008 (talk) 14:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC))

Disagree. Keep Status Quo. To combine the articles is not the way forward. Take other now defunct TOCS, like GNER whose services are still largely the same, with just a different company operating it. They still have an separate entry. How would this fit in with the Template:Defunct_UK_TOCs? It's just because the names are similar that confusion happens. This is not good enough reason to merge.--86.155.186.118 (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The situation here isn't parallel to GNER, though. The ScotRail franchise is let under different terms than those under the control of the national government, and the Scottish Executive have chosen to give it a permanent identity separate from that of the franchise-holder. I'm not saying that this automatically means they should be merged, but there are strong arguments in favour of it, and the convenience of the template system should not be allowed to override editorial judgement. David Arthur (talk) 16:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. It is parallel. GNER and NXEC are the brand names used to identify the InterCity East Coast franchise. ScotRail, First ScotRail, and now ScotRail Scotlands Railway are brand names used for the franchise in Scotland. Just because now the franchises are let by a different body should that make a difference? Not really. The NEG franchise was let by the Franchising Director, as was FSR at the initial period, on behalf of the Scottish Executive. If the Scottish Government had of called the franchise SuperFunTimeHappy Railway would you merge that with ScotRail?--86.155.186.118 (talk) 21:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Not, it isn't parallel. GNER and National Express East Coast are the names of companies that have operated that franchise (as was the case with First ScotRail). The Scottish Executive have now decreed, however, that the service will be called ‘ScotRail’ no matter who runs it; First ScotRail retain the franchise, even though their name is being taken off the trains. ‘ScotRail’ is a concept going back to the days of British Rail, and at this point it seems like it would be more productive to have a single article covering its history. The structure that has been used for England's railways makes it useful to have an article for each company, but things haven't worked quite the same way in Scotland. David Arthur (talk) 22:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It maybe true that franchising has not worked out the same way for Scotland as it has in England now, however in the past it certainly has been the same. To change history somewhat, and create a year zero from now is not the way forward. ScotRail (NEG) company name was ScotRail Railways Ltd. It traded as "ScotRail". It was authorised under the Railways Act 1993, from the United Kingdom Government, the same as all the other first generation contracts in England and Wales. The 2005 Railways Act created the ability of Scottish Ministers to appoint First ScotRail which has a Service Quality. Incentive Regime (SQUIRE) franchise agreement. Totally different from the previous one. Just as Network Rail effectively does the same job as Railtrack, they merit separate articles, as they are different. If you propose to lump all these Scottish Railways together, just where do you stop? The Kilmarnock and Troon Railway??--86.155.186.118 (talk) 23:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay I think some compromise is required here. Status quo is not desirable, when future franchises come into being and FirstScotrail becomes defunct it'll mean another company another page and another fragmented account of the franchises history. I think it still makes sense to have one coherent ScotRail brand page, while still maintaining separate pages on the TOC's providing outline details about those companies. Who knows though, there are more important things in the world that Wikipedia articles. (Jacqueline2008 (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps then there should be a main article for the ScotRail Franchise giving a brief description of the individual operators and type of franchise, with links to a page showing greater detail for individual operators? Personally, I would use the 1993 Railways Act on as the starting point for any franchising article. Including BR could be confusing. How the articles are named is another matter.--86.155.186.118 (talk) 11:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It is now 2010 and there are still ScotRail* articles which fail to fully describe and distinguish the services and entities associated with that name. Instead of limiting the use of "Scotrail" to a particular period or entity would it not be simpler to create a disambiguation page guiding users to the correct articles dealing with the relevant trading name, franchise(s), BR sector, companies etc. so that confusion is avoided ?--MBRZ48 (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Page move from ScotRail to Scotrail (1997-2004)

I moved to this page because this branding is defunct, and the current ScotRail service should take precedent. That service is no longer branded as "First ScotRail" but as just plain ScotRail. RGloucester (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree this article covers the whole history of the ScotRail name, from initial branding by British Rail. The article was perfected correct aswas - see discussion above. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 22:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

This article does not talk about British Rail. It talks about the franchise operated by National Express (see infobox). ScotRail under British Rail is covered by Regional Railways. 188.74.96.196 (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• Most of section 1 (Fleet) refers to BR

When ScotRail was created by BR, services were operated by a variety of diesel locomotives and coaching stock together with diesel and electric multiple units. Prior to the introduction of Class 158 DMUs by British Rail and later Class 170 DMUs by National Express, services were operated by slam-door stock such as the Class 101 DMUs.

• Section 2.1 is titled BR.

Nearly half the article covers the BR days. This has been referred to WP:TIS and a rail-related admin for consideration --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 22:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if that is so, it has always clearly stated in the infobox and the intro that it operated from 1997-2004. I did not add that. Hence, the title is correct. The fleet bits, as they are, should be modified. I assumed that those pieces in fleet were used because they represent what became the National Express franchise fleet... 188.74.96.196 (talk) 22:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The two articles are now a total mess, NX referred to in the First article and vice versa. We should wait until RGloucester and the admin I have consulted come back on this one. In the meantime this discussion should be moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Transport in Scotland#Move of ScotRail to Scotrail (1997 to 2004) for a consensus. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 22:35, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Introduction of "ScotRail" brand name

The article implies a date of either 1987 or 1988 for the introduction of the ScotRail name. I currently have in front of me a West Highland Line timetable from May 1983 with "Scotrail" branding on the front cover.–Signalhead ^< T > 20:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Wonderful - I did not have a direct reference, apart from it being during Chris Green's first stint as GM. This ties is done more specifically. Would you like to quote and reference. It will narrow done the trawl through RAIL (or Modern Railways, or your magazine of choice) to find the announcement. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 20:50, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I still do not know the actual year of introduction. It could have been either 1982 or 1983. The change from "Scotrail" to "ScotRail" seems to have occurred during 1984.–Signalhead ^< T > 21:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, the small "r" branding was introduced when the West Highland Mk. 1 coaches were repainted in the old LNER "tourist" livery, green and cream, and this brand was also given to some otherwise-normal blue and grey coaches; the big "R" branding came in when the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull Mark 2f/Mark 3 stock was repainted two shades of grey, white and blue. The Platform 5 coaching stock first notes the latter (described as "the new Scot Rail livery") against a photo dated 23 November 1984 of Mk. 2f DBSO Sc9710:

• Fox, Peter (1985). Coaching Stock Pocket Book (7th ed.). Sheffield: Platform 5 Publications. p. 23. ISBN 0 906579 44 9.

This is also the first edition to use a distinguishing mark for "Scotrail livery", a black triangle; this is shown against six DBSOs, 11 TSOs, two FOs, and some others. From the 8th edition this mark became a boldface S. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:22, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I've found a reference [1] for the introduction of the ScotRail name in September 1983 although, as noted above, the name appeared on May 1983 timetables. –Signalhead ^< T > 18:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Gaelic "Rèile na h-Alba"

Rather than being the Gaelic equivalent of "ScotRail", I believe these words actually translate as "Scotland's railway". (In recent years, "Scotland's railway" or "Rèile na h-Alba" has been appearing alternately on the sides of trains, below the name "ScotRail".) As such, I don't think it's correct for this article, or the First ScotRail / ScotRail (National Express) articles, to imply that this is a Gaelic translation of "ScotRail".–Signalhead ^< T > 00:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, so if 50% of coaches show "ScotRail Scotland's railway", and the rest "ScotRail Rèile na h-Alba", it's a marketing slogan and not a branding as such. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:00, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yup.–Signalhead ^< T > 16:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Potential merger?

Now, last time I tried to fix this is wasn’t accepted, but I still think it is a problem. The three ScotRail articles all seem kind of redundant. I really don’t see why there should not be only one article for all of ScotRail. Does anyone agree? Look at ScotRail (National Express), First ScotRail and ScotRail. It really doesn’t make sense to have it set up as it does now, especially considering the current service is only named “ScotRail”. RGloucester (talk) 16:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

No, No, No - this is NOT a problem

These are three separate entities, it makes perfect sense and highlights the three separate operating organisations. This article acts as a means of ties the various incarnations together. The BR era article covers the days of Chris Green; the NatEx article the initial TOC and their innovation. Finally First ScotRail, opening of A2B, introduction of Class 380s, change in franchise arrangements to being under the governance of the Scottish Government, and their decision on the branding to be applied. In the event that First Group lose the franchise in the future, we will then have a new article for the new company. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 19:18, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

They are the different evolutions of roughly the "same" entity. The pages don't really stand well on their own. And furthermore, it is presently confusing to people reading it. How can I tell? Someone fixed the First ScotRail page by changing the info box and putting in all the old First livery, prior to the government rebranding. Another person changed this page to have the present livery, instead of the original one. I reverted these changes, but still. There is no reason why there couldn't be one ScotRail article, with all the information contained. It is not like any of these articles are too long. Read all the pages, and tell me you'll see the redundancy. It really just doesn't stand very well as it is. RGloucester (talk) 00:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

There many be a bit of redundancy, however the articles should and must be able to stand alone. There is too much of considering of merging then removing what is considered out-of-date date, result we lose the historical information. The original BR ScotRail logo is missing (NX developed into theirs). Three separate entities that have existed and they deserve three separate articles. Granted the articles need improving, but merging - NO.

Your argument would also apply to the merging of GNER, NXEC and East Coast. I am sure you (and others) would not propose that this should happen. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 11:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

New Franchise

When will new section be added about the new franchise? Five Short listed: Abellio, Arriva, FirstGroup, MTR and National Express

After shortlist was created in November 2013.

• http://buyingbusinesstravel.com/news/0421598-five-bidders-vie-scotrail-franchise
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-24773145
• http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/firstgroup-to-bid-to-keep-scotrail-franchise-as-bidders-revealed
• http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/former-scotrail-boss-in-bid-to-win-back-franchise-1-3169237
• http://news.stv.tv/politics/249343-rail-franchise-bidders-must-commit-to-ambitious-improvements/

DOO is ruled out: http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/11/20-new-scotrail-franchise-plan-appears.html http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/company-news/hong-kong-state-firm-in-bid-to-run-scotrail.21954682

which Also has links to more newspapers and docs: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103634&page=4

Tender Doc: Jan 2014: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/uploaded_content/documents/tsc_basic_pages/Rail/ScotRail%20franchise/scotrail-franchise-itt-4855286-45.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.7.59 (talk) 20:07, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merger October 2019

The two articles ScotRail, and ScotRail (brand) both act to link to the companies that have operated ScotRail since 1983, however the ScotRail article does so with less background information. They should be merged. Note, I'm not proposing to merge the various incarnations of ScotRail (Abelio, First etc.) into this page. Grinner (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Probably not the primary topic though, arguably that is the current operator (Abellio ScotRail). Perhaps the ScotRail page should be retained as a disambiguation page. Corstrone (talk) 00:08, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I see your point, but the current situation is a mess. My intention is that we have one ScotRail article that summarises the whole history and development of ScotRail in its various forms and links to the individual franchise articles. So I propose to expand the (brand) article to have more information on the wider subject, once it is moved across to ScotRail. 06:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose While the ScotRail (brand) article could be improved and possibly even renamed ScotRail (overview) or something similar, it shouldn't be renamed ScotRail as the primary topic. If there is a primary topic, it is the Abellio ScotRail article, 3,000 views vs 28,000 views for the 3 months ended 30 September. Corstrone (talk) 05:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Closing, given the uncontested objection and no support. Klbrain (talk) 15:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:ScotRail Trains which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 03:06, 15 March 2022 (UTC)