Talk:Sheep

Article is a wall of text

Most of the article, especially the "Diet" section is a wall of text, too long. I feel some information should be split up and moved into sub-categories. --MrRatermat2 (talk) 17:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi. It seems that similar issues were addressed further above on this talk page. See, for example, the division of "History of Sheep" into a separate article. Given that this page was a FA, I'm also inclined to think that overall the content actually is fairly well put together. However, I sympathize about the length of the Diet section, I fear that attempts to spin "The diet of sheep" into its own article would likely be immediately shot down given how deletionist folks tend to be. What do you think about trimming some of the content from that section instead to make it more palatable? Jaydubya93 (talk) 20:55, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The diet section is only six paragraphs (some of which are quite short). This is hardly a long section. Rmhermen (talk) 22:55, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

With the comments above in mind, I have broken up the Diet section with sub-headings and moving paragraphs. I hope this works, if not, please edit/revert.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Visual field size

Under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep#Description_and_evolution it says sheep have "visual fields of approximately 270° to 320°", but under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep#Senses it says "Sheep have panoramic vision of 330° to 360°". Anybody know which is correct?

86.138.137.6 (talk) 02:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe that the 270 degree to 320 degree figure is the correct one. This is the same field of vision that goats have. JohnSHicks (talk) 12:30, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

From [1]

Sheep have generally very good vision. The position of the eye allows for wide peripheral vision – with each eye they can span some 145° with each eye. Binocular vision is much narrower – 40° wide. They have no vision 2-3cm immediately in front of the nose. After locating a threat in their peripheral vision, they turn to examine it with binocular vision. They have a blind spot at rear around 70° which is wider than the cow and useful when catching sheep.

__DrChrissy (talk) 08:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Do Lambs have horns

Or is Revelation 5 and 13 describing Horns of or like a Lamb's symbolically technically zoologically incorrect? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.176.92 (talk) 22:56, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Reference number 25: "Wooster"

What is that reference? It's used several times, but is not complete. I tried to search through the history a bit to see if it was a joke, but it's too difficult (or I couldn't figure out how to do it).

159.149.7.152 (talk) 10:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

For some reason, this article has 2 References sections. The full reference is given in the second of these sections.Wooster, Chuck (2005). Living with Sheep: Everything You Need to Know to Raise Your Own Flock. Geoff Hansen (Photography). Guilford, Connecticut: The Lyons Press. ISBN 1-59228-531-7.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:01, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

File:Flock of sheep.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Flock of sheep.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 5, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-07-05. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:31, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Sheep are quadrupedal ruminants, typically kept as livestock. Although the name "sheep" applies to many species in the genus Ovis, in everyday usage it generally refers to Ovis aries. One of the first animals to be domesticated, sheep are likely descended from the wild mouflon of Europe and Asia. They are raised for their fleece, meat, and milk.Photograph: Keith Weller/Agricultural Research Service

Error under diet section

Under the diet section it says, "When sheep graze, vegetation is chewed into a mass called a bolus, which is then passed into the rumen, via the reticulum. "

The reticulum is after the rumen in the digestive tract. Would someone who can edit this page remove the "via the reticulum" part please?

The reticulum is not after the rumen. Rmhermen (talk) 23:59, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

This figure[2] indicates the bolus can not get to the reticulum without having been in the rumen first. However, Ruminant states "Even though the rumen and reticulum have different names, they represent the same functional space as digesta can move back and forth between them." which is what I remember being taught.DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

That figure is misleading as the page itself latter says the esophagus "Opens into reticulum and rumen". This source more clearly says "The reticulum is a blind pouch of the rumen that acts as a holding area for feed after it passes down the esophagus. ... there is no distinct division between the rumen and the reticulum, ..." Rmhermen (talk) 17:39, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

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Edit request: Depth perception

Fifth sentence in the fourth paragraph under heading "Description and evolution" states, "[s]heep have poor depth perception...". Subsection titled "Senses" under heading "Behaviour" states, "[g]ood depth perception...was confirmed in "visual cliff" experiments...". Please clarify.Wordecho (talk) 21:59, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Sheep genome fully sequenced?

In section "Science", we can read "As of 2008, the sheep genome has not been fully sequenced". I think it was fully squenced in 2014 (Press release and Science publication cited in International Sheep Genomics Consortium). --Furado (talk) 12:10, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Lede Photograph

Somebody ought to nominate that lede pic for inclusion in the WikiCommons because that is truly a great shot.

GreaseballNYC (talk) 10:42, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2017

86.97.21.165 (talk) 13:40, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
Please request your change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 14:04, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

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IQ?

Section 3.3 (Behavior - Intelligence and Learning Ability) compares sheep, pigs and cattle in terms of IQ. I'm not familiar with the use of IQ as a measure for animal intelligence - my understanding is that it's a scale used to measure human intelligence. I don't have easy access to the referenced source (Weaver), so can't see whether the source does likewise, but it seems like a sloppy use of the term to me. Should we simply replace IQ with 'intelligence'?Girth Summit (talk) 13:15, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Grammar

Opening sentence: Sheep are . . . mammal.

'Are' is a PLURAL verb; 'mammal' is a SINGULAR noun.

Wording

"interdigitally on the feet"

Er . . . how about "between the toes"?

Barbary sheep (Ammotragus lervia)

I have no claim to being an expert on sheep and do not want to disrupt a featured article. But to me the article seems to imply that all sheep are of the genus Ovis. It does not mention the barbary sheep (Ammotragus lervia), which is of another genus. Nicolas Perrault (talk) 11:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Members of the genus Pseudois are apparently also called sheep. Nicolas Perrault (talk) 14:35, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Add "s" to make plural obvious (i.e. sheeps) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.18.30.82 (talk) 00:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Farming practices section

I removed this new section for a few important reasons:

1. This article was forked into a main article and sub-articles for sub-topics like Sheep farming and Sheep reproduction because it was far too large, according to WP:LENGTH. A general overview of the animal doesn't and shouldn't need to delve into the various complexities of sheep husbandry, which differs wildly across the entire world and has a huge amount of potential detail that could be expanded on in those subarticles.
2. The version that didn't include that large new section was approved as Featured, so we can be confident we aren't missing coverage of a basic encyclopedic topic related to sheep without it I think.
3. Some parts, such as the selection of images, is obviously biased in a way to look intentionally gruesome and influence readers. The author went around adding very similar images to a bunch of related articles and seems to have an agenda to push.

I do think we can / should add all of that content (including the images) to the sheep husbandry article, where we can delve into all relevant details and show the complete NPOV picture of what sheep husbandry is, taking an comprehensive encyclopedic approach. Steven Walling • talk 00:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Pings for @Lowercaserho:, @Whiteghost.ink: and @RockingGeo: who all edited the page subsequent to me objecting. For meta context, I think these should be discussed before adding them back following WP:BRD, since RockingGeo added them boldly first, and then I reverted them with edits. Steven Walling • talk 00:22, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the courtesy ping. I have no strong opinion on this, nor do I feel I have sufficient subject expertise to judge issues of WP:WEIGHT here. My only contribution was to remove see alsos that are already in the article (which I've gone and done again since one got added back among the reverting). Good luck on reaching a consensus. Lowercaserho (talk) 01:07, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I created the section for, what I think are, also important reasons.

1. Over half of this article covers in-depth and, to someone unfamiliar with sheep husbandry, relatively obscure topics on sheep farming. These include things like sheep farming economics, sheep farming healthcare, and sheep obstetrics. To me, it does not make sense to cover these things while simultaneously not covering basic universal things that sheep farms do on a day-to-day basis, such as shearing, feeding, lambing, lamb marking, selling sheep for market, slaughter, etc. Why discuss the global wool market without any discussion on shearing? Why talk about sheep consumption without mentioning saleyards or sheep slaughter? Sheep obstetrics without lambing? Flystrike but no mulesling or docking? If this section should be removed because the article is too long, than it only makes sense to remove the other sections first.
2. I agree that the article was already very good, and I compliment those who have worked on it. However, a featured article can still be improved upon and added to, which is my goal.
3. The images of the saleyard or sheep feeding aren't very gruesome or shocking, so I assume you're talking about the castration photo. I picked castration because I needed a photo for lamb marking. There are already images of tagged sheep, and I thought it would be less shocking than mulesing or docking. Trust me, I tried to find the least gruesome picture on sheep castration that I could. That's why I used an old and blurry picture from an older educational textbook on sheep farming that hid the face of the ram. Unfortunately, it's just not a pretty sight. That's life. You're welcome to find a better photo though.
4. I think in order for this article to be WP:NPOV we have to clearly state all the facts, including those that some may find unpleasant. Otherwise, it would be biased at best or censored at worst. I tried to avoid giving anything undue weight. If you think I didn't add enough justification for certain unpleasantries (or if you think I added to much) please feel free to add more of the viewpoints you want, as that's hard for me to judge.

I hope we can find consensus soon, and I'd be happy to help expand the sheep husbandry page, as I see it is quite lacking, but on this page, I still think there should be a section with a description of the basic workings of a sheep farm. The amount of detail in the section I created is currently still pretty low, so in a page dedicated to it there'd be a lot of things we could dive deep into, like herding dogs, castration tools, the customs and practices of individual countries, types of supplemental feeds, different management systems, different slaughter methods, etc. RockingGeo (talk) 02:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I also disagree with the placement of the movement of the lamb marking / vaccination section to the "reproduction" section, as these procedures are not related to the biological aspects of sheep reproduction, though I guess lambing kind of makes sense there. Maybe expand on the lambing practices but move the other parts elsewhere? RockingGeo (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for replying in depth. In terms of general focus: the article should be framed based on the details of sheep as an animal—its morphology, biology and behavior—while treating as secondary the details of human husbandry practices and its relationship to human systems of food, economics, culture, etc. That's why there are large sections about things like behavior and reproductive biology, which are longer than those about sheep as food or as a producer of fiber.

The purest encyclopedic overview of a subject starts with the core description of the animal, only describing human practices and history where necessary to contextualize why the animal functions the way it does. So for instance, the reproduction section only mentions farming practices in passing where it is needed to describe the reality of how most sheep are born and their early life. The core issue for me is that I don't think we should have a separate farming/husbandry section in any form, but rather only mention it in situ where it is relevant to the lifecycle or broader context of the section's subject. Instead, I think you should work on expanding the article on Sheep farming that is woefully short, and most definitely should include a nitty-gritty understanding of the nuances of sheep farming, like how some castration is done using modern methods that try to minimize pain while historically and still in many countries farmers don't use methods that any reliable sources describe as humane. This article is simply too long already to objectively explore farming practices in a neutral manner.

In terms of WP:NPOV issues, I do have absolutely zero interest in making the article pleasant by masking realities, hence adding back the stat about how hundreds of millions of sheep are slaughtered per year. I also chose the current images that show sheep being attacked by coyotes, the image of the sheep with orf, and a big hunk of raw lamb. What I don't think is accurate is using outdated farming photography (1912, 1920) and adding editorializing to the captions to emphasize negative impacts. Bunched together they all look like PETA propaganda to me. If you want to show docking for instance, use a photo which actually looks like this which is the representative practice on farms in industrialized countries. Steven Walling • talk 02:43, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

You make a reasonable case. I agree with what you say. Since you don't want a separate farming section, would you mind if I were to begin weaving in some of the removed material into the relevant existing sections, and we just gradually come to an WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS through editing? (unless another major issue pops up, of course) I feel that would work best as there are quite a few different topics, and going to the talk page for all of them would be exhausting. I'll also begin adding material to the husbandry page itself. Hopefully we can make that a featured page too!

Ok, I think I misinterpreted your original point of view. I'm sorry some of the statements appeared to be PETA editorializing. That was not my intention. I was also only trying to generally represent every aspect of farming practices around the world, but I may be a bit desensitized to the business. I erred on the side of avoiding censorship, but now looking back I see when all those negative parts of the business (as some would see it) were put so close together it could come off a bit biased. Also, in many industrialized countries, most aspects of farming are still done the same way they've been done for hundreds of years with only minor modifications (except slaughter, though saleyards are still the same, if not bigger), which is why I didn't mind using older photos. That said, I like your alternative elastration docking photo and will use that instead. I'll be happy to consider any other alternatives too. Did you also want the slaughterhouse photo replaced? I would argue against that, as I think it's modern, relevant, and doesn't actually show any gore. RockingGeo (talk) 00:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, sorry for my delay. Yes, I think weaving new material into existing sections is a good alternative approach. As we go through that, we can figure out how to balance expanding this article or sheep farming. In terms of images, thanks for being flexible. Certainly in the intervening years since FA review, image bloat tends to happen too and we could easily refine the number/balance of images to include a few more that represent specific situations and practices, rather than generic images of which there are plenty. Steven Walling • talk 23:15, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

"Baaaaaaaa" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Baaaaaaaa. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 15#Baaaaaaaa until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TheAwesomeHwyh 18:49, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Relationship to mouflon

The article on domestic sheep says they are thought to be descended from mouflon. The article on mouflon says tthey are thought to be descended from domestic sheep. They can't both be right. If there is genuine uncertainty this should be reflected in both articles Stub Mandrel (talk) 07:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Female sheep are called girl sheep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:A483:E301:748A:697F:27B3:8DFB (talk) 07:24, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

"Yepe-yepe" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Yepe-yepe. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 26#Yepe-yepe until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Certes (talk) 17:02, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Agricultural sciences

Breed types and it's adaptation features 41.113.245.57 (talk) 14:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Agricultural sciences

Breed types and it's adaptation features 41.113.245.57 (talk) 14:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

The picture under the 'Diet' tab should have annotations below it

In my opinion, the picture under the 'Diet' tab should have annotations below it due to the picture containing numbers. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2023

It is important!To not that sheep can actualy come in all colors! They can be purple or green or any color of a sheep ownern's choosing.IF I WANTED TO DYE MMY SHEEP PINK I COULD DO THAT RIGHT DAMN NOW! 4Iknoweverything4 (talk) 16:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done added info about smit marks. small jars tc 16:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Agriculture

function of a sheep 154.120.82.181 (talk) 12:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Placement of topic of sheep homosexuality

Considering that homosexuality cannot lead to reproduction and is better clasified as a behaviour, shouldn't that part of the article be moved from the "reproduction" to "behavior"? 2800:560:3B:19D4:E40E:1712:2AF0:3CFA (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2024

Please remove four phrases:

or mutton) and milk.
Being a key animal in the history of farming
9000 B.C in Mesopotamia
green, yellow and white

and add four to replace them:

or mutton), and milk.
As a key animal in the history of farming
9000 BC in Mesopotamia
green, yellow, and white

The serial comma is missing in the first one (it's present elsewhere in the introduction), being doesn't fit as well with the rest of the sentence, "B.C" is never correct (either "BC" or "B.C."), and again the serial comma is missing in the fourth one. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 01:27, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Charliehdb (talk) 10:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)