Talk:Shivam Patil

Number of issues

The socking and such like on this article is well documented, however I have been doing some verification on some of the content. For example his membership of Street Soul Dance Crew is only a repeat of his quote, is there a secondary source to this ?, The The Asian Age] cite makes no mention of Coca-Cola, myntra.com, McDonalds, Eno or Tic Tac adverts and only quotes the subject when he said he appeared in a Airtel advert. Also no source to the claim "While studying at HR College, he began training himself as a dancer in 2010". I am going to remove a lot of this, and will await an established editor to source it.LGA _talk^edits 05:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• Why was this removed?
  Patil is the son of director and producer Mrunalini Patil.
  The source says...
  Acting happened at the behest of his mother Mrinalini Patil, who is a famous director and producer of Marathi films. “She proved to be a force who drove me towards acting. After college, I was aimless about my career and one day she asked me my plan. I said I would like to study psychology and she replied ‘why don’t you give acting a shot. You’ve got talent. Don’t let it go waste’. That’s when I decided to try my luck in acting and did theatre for a brief while. I went through initial stage of struggle (auditioned 50-60 times for ad films) before bagging an Airtel ad and finally Nasha happened,” says the young actor, who like a good boy took the script to his mother for approval.
  Its not inappropriate or wrongly sourced to write that his mother is director producer. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 04:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Could the PR guys please confirm if the Mrunalini Patil is the same one who produced Kagaar? She is listed with this one film at IMDb here. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

It was removed because it was red linked, I could not find any other WP:RS's to confirm who she was. It can be restored if there is an article on her and while we are at it, some more RS's on her role in his life, for example ones that are not interviews so that it can be more encyclopaedic than just who his mother is. LGA _talk^edits 08:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Being his mother is sufficient enough to state that she is his mother. Add to that that she is a film producer-director and you don't need to have her playing "role in his life". And if it was red link, you should remove the link if you can't stand it. I saw no rule anywhere that only blue linked names should be mentioned. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:34, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

If you want to put details of both parents in the info box then go ahead, but the sentence that was removed is not appropriate, a google search for "Mrinalini Patil director and producer" lists that source as the first hit and only a total of five his, therefore exists only one interview based source for it and it is not clear if she is indeed therefore a "director and producer" or if she is indeed the imdb listed individual you mention, if she is I would hardly call one film credit enough to make you "a famous director" all of which in turn leads me to question the source as a whole. LGA _talk^edits 10:50, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Funny the way you were looking for that very exact term on Google and hoping to get stuff. Infobox, part of lead, summarizes article. If the parents/children are not really notable enough, they will not be mentioned in lead/infobox. However, they can be mentioned in the article, even if they are non-notable to the bestest of best extent. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:REDLINKs are perfectly fine, particularly if the subject is likely to meet the criteria for a new article (and someone who is a "famous producer and director" is likely to meet that criteria) However, like LGA, I was unable to find any actual evidence that she is in fact a "famous producer and director". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:01, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

We can assume that much of good faith on all the PR guys editing this article if they confirm that mother of this Patil is the same Mrunalini Patil that produced Kagaar. There are also other films credited to one Mrunalini Patil although not listed on IMDb as IMDb's coverage of Marathi films is very poor. I can make a list of all such films. Easier still would be if the list is provided here by the PR people and then i can reconfirm the list sufficient enough to call her "producer and director". I wouldn't call her "famous" anyways. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 12:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

we assume good faith about Wikipedia editor's intentions to be a positive impact on the encyclopedia.

We assume that PR people are doing their jobs which is attempting to promote their clients, which automatically sets them as non reliable sources except for content that is not unduly self serving.

with generally reliable sources, like mainstream newspapers and television news, we go in with the assumption that the reporter and the editors are doing their jobs of fact checking and neutralizing the PR spin of the PR agents; but when there is evidence that they are slacking, that assumption of them doing their job no longer stands. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Its fine to not assume good faith with PR people some times; especially after so many malpractices like socking. But why do you say that newspapers, in our case The Asian Age, is no longer to be assumed good? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 15:05, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

this is the source that is making the claim "his mother Mrinalini Patil, who is a famous director and producer of Marathi films." when there are no other indications that she is in fact "famous" - the Asian Age editor's fact checking and removing of PR spin is clearly second rate on this article throwing its reliability into question. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

So you wanna say that this newspaper is posing his mother as a film director and producer because of his PR propaganda whereas she might just be a simple housewife in reality? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

If you want to be reductionist, yes, that is the essence. In this article, the paper is spitting back content from the PR agents that it has not appropriately verified / de-promotionalized / vetted for accuracy and as a source, the content from that article needs to be treated with great caution.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Its your assumption here that the paper is spitting out stuff without verifying it. It might very well be lenient and generous in use of adjectives but i see no way how you come to the point where you say that PR guys have been influential on newspapers, so much that facts have been altered. I will add the sentence back, of her mother being a producer-director of Marathi films, and then you can take the source to WP:RSN. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 15:07, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

It is not "an assumption". It is based on fact. They identify someone as "Famous" for which there are no other sources that even mention her. They are either NOT fact checking appropriately or are being complicit in advancing PR spin. Either way, that does not bode well for considering that article as anything other than a questionable source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:23, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

A better/more sources are needed for the detail about his mother. LGA _talk^edits 19:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Do you (referring to TRPOD) have some reading material about Marathi cinema? Are you an expert on it? On what basis do you say that she isnt famous in the Marathi film industry? Based on internet search results? Again, i direct you to systemic bias. And its not just you, even I have no clue about Marathi cinema, but I would still tend to believe the Asian Age article which says that her mother is a famous director of Marathi cinema. That does not mean that she has to be popular on the internet. I do not agree with your opinion of the source as biased. Your opinion, which i am guessing is based on lack of internet sources about the director, seems biased against the under-represented Marathi film industry. But apart from the Asian Age, i did find some other sources which mention her as a director - here, here, here, here, here, here and here. These are just a few English website/news sources that mention her. I am sure she finds much more mention in local Marathi news or Marathi film websites - hence the term "famous". Anir1uph | talk | contrib 22:11, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Not a single one of those uses "famous" in relation to her, so yes I still question that, most are just mentions there is not enough to pass WP:GNG for an article and none of them link the person back to the subject of this article. As for your repeated claim of systemic bias, again I must point out, this has nothing to do with that any everything to do with the sources or lack of them. LGA _talk^edits 08:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I wasnt talking to or about you LGA, I was pointing out that Redpen has given absolutely no valid reason to display why the TOI or Asian Age are unreliable in their reporting. He has just shown that he has absolutely no idea about Marathi cinema, nor can look up up stuff on google. And you, LGA misunderstand why i put those links - those are merely few of the search results that come up when i search for Mrunalini Patil. She does seem like a notable Marathi director to me, just what the Asian Age article says. I have a very strong feeling that the only reason we cant find more sources about her on google is due to the under-representation of Marathi film industry on the internet. She is already mentioned in the article now, so I rest my case. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 12:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary Brake

One of the existing sources in the article reports that the actor was in fact part of that dance group. See the TOI report. TOI is the most read English newspaper in the world. It is his quote, but it is being published in a TOI report. A primary source would be his own website or blog. A TOI report/interview is a secondary source. I do not understand why that info was removed, can you someone explain? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 18:40, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

regarding the content from the highly read paper - all that the Times is doing is reporting that Patil has made a claim about being in a prize winning dance group, they are not stating "He was in a prize winning dance group". It has been contested as someone making Primary Source Claim about themselves that is unduly self serving and requiring a third party to verify that not only Patil made the statement, but that the contents of the statement are factual. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not saying that our article should say that his dance group won a lot of international/national competitions. But we can definitely say that "he was part of the Street Soul Dance Crew which participated in many dance competetions in India". The later part, regarding participation is not a quote, but a TOI statement. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 19:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I dont know which article did you read but the TOI article clearly says "In fact, the youngster has participated in dance festivals across India." We can always say that "In an interview to Times of India in 2013, Patil said that bla bla bla...". That should not be a problem. What do you think? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 19:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

my sister "participates in dance festivals". i am not sure what is gained by the addition. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:15, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

your sister is not the subject of any wiki article. But this guy is. So what he did in his early life, on the way to become an actor is relevant, and is reliable sourced. It is not just participating - he was part of a dance group, which took part in many national dance competitions and won many of them. I see no reason not to include that info in a section on his early life. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 19:31, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, the first line of the lede mentions that he is a dancer. But the article body does not explain that or give more details about that. Adding the info about the dance group, and then the achievements of his group when he was a part of them will only improve the article. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 19:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Then come up with more RS's that detail it, the more independent and diverse sources there are the more it goes to being significant part of the subject and the less it looks like PR spin. LGA _talk^edits 20:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Eh? So if a reliable newspaper like The Times of India says something totally uncontroversial, i still need to have another reliable source to support it? No sir, i do not! This just sounds to me like systemic bias. I am not at all in favor of our article following the so called "PR spin", but we can definitely use the facts to create a more complete biography of the guy. This too details a lot of the information we can easily use without sounding promotional. BTW, NewsX is an Indian TV news channel. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 20:50, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

It is ridicules to play the systemic bias card; this article has come under attention due to the egregious socking and attempts at promotion, there is nothing biased about it. The NewsX would appear to be a RS that does detail it, rather than complain about something that is just not there, propose how you think his dancing should be covered using this source either as a bold edit to the article or here. LGA _talk^edits 07:13, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I am playing no card, just giving you my observations. From the article's history, I can see that reliably referenced information, even the name of his mother as given in Asian Ages was removed. The dance career mentioned in the Times of India was ignored/deemed unreliable/deemed unnecessary. Seemed to me that something is off. I understand people here are pissed because of the socks, but that should not be at the cost of the article. I will make some additions soon; I was just waiting for opinion of the other editors by posting my suggestions on the talk page first. I will try to come up with something by combining info from the TOI and NewsX reference. I hope you would help to improve my edit. Thanks a lot :) Anir1uph | talk | contrib 18:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I has been explained why those sources are not the airtight reliable sources for the content that you are claiming. That you choose to play more loosely with sources with an article that has been the verified target of a promotional campaign than others do is your choice. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I think TOI and NewsX are reliable source; if you have a problem with that, you can take it to the RSN. I totally agree that our article must not glorify the person, but simple mention of certain facts like his mothers name and her also part of the film industry, his dance group's name and where they participated is OK and uncontroversial. We are not writing about a contentious topic, nor are we aiming for an FA class article. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 22:11, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

And please see Deepika Padukone, a recently promoted FA about an Indian actor. The section "Early life and modelling career" uses direct quotes from her, as published by The Times of India in different interviews. If that is acceptable in an FA, doing the same here is completely fine as well. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 22:27, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Nice try, but I won't raise to that one, WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is no reason to not be diligent about sourcing here. I like TRPoD have concerns to the reliability of the given cites (not the whole publications), there are plenty of examples of even normally gold standard RS's getting it wrong on one or two articles, here where WP editors have tried to Fact Check claims made and come up black it is reasonable to request better sourcing. Rather than spend time debating, if you think the sources exit fix it; for example it is coming up to a week since {{CN}} were added to his date of birth, I will remove any mention of his birth date in less than 24 hrs if a source is not provided. LGA _talk^edits 08:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Woooo! Am scared! §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:42, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Hehe Anir1uph | talk | contrib 12:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW, how about http://www.filmyfolks.com/celebrity/bollywood/shivam-nasha-movie-actor.php this for the birth date? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 12:24, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

filmyfolks filmyfolks.com they do not appear to have any reputation at all, let alone one for fact checking and accuracy. they do not even have an "about us" and the primary header of their navigation bar is "Gossips" really suggests that they are far below of the level of any WP:RS that is needed for WP:BLP information such as birth date. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:34, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Exactly why i didnt add it in the article. But that is all i could find about it on the internet about it. Some chatter here, and also the actor's twitter profile , but with the same problems. The only option right now is to remove DOB from the article. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 23:30, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, the actor's facebook profile has his birthday as December 26. What about that? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 23:36, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

How derogatory or libelous is the birthdate that it has to be referenced right now? Also i feel that most of the content is being challenged just for the sake of challenging without any reasonable sense. His mother is producer-director. That's it. Why does she have to have huge web coverage and must have won few awards or created Oscar winning films? He dances in a group. That's it. Why does the group have to perform in front of PM of India on 15th August or be winner of India's Got Talent? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 04:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

someone using the birthdates we post to conclude that he was doing something like drinking or voting while a minor or that he is over age dating someone younger that would be statutory rape is very potentially libelous. without reliable source such personal information should never be posted.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:24, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Hahahah! You clearly have lotsa time. Carry on. Bbyee!! §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 17:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

You may laugh at WP:BLP, but the Wikipedia community and foundation have placed acting conservatively in regards to the content we post about living people as one of the highest priorities that trumps other policies such as 3RR. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:44, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Very simple WP:V is why it should not be there; second WP is not a promotional tool and bibliographical details added that give that appearance of "bigging up" the subject that add no real value should also be removed. LGA _talk^edits 07:42, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

And then why was the citation needed tag ever made? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 08:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

the citation needed tag was created to identify information that needs reliable sourcing and to give editors notice that it needs sources.

How the fuck is mother's name and profession promotional? How is mentioning someone's dance group/career promotional? It's his biography - what the guy did in his life is the whole point of having this article. And we have sources like TOI, NewsX and Asian Age detailing them. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 08:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

how the fuck is his mother's name important for understanding the subject of the article: an actor of minor note? If his mother's job and her professional connections eased the path for him breaking into the business, well that's a different story, but would need sources to show that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

References

Attention

Article lead should be shortened as per MOS. Rejoy²⁰⁰³(talk) 12:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)