Talk:Sighthound/Archive 1

Archive 1

Rhodesian Ridgeback

I know this is debatable, but from my reading the Rhodesian Ridgeback isn't a true sight hound. It lacks the classic sight hound build, and was not bred for the purpose of coursing. I don't expect anything to change, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. Pharaoh Hound 12:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree fully; Ridgebacks do not depend on sight alone when hunting.Wolfie the Marshmallow

Unlisted breeds

For future work: There are a number of breeds listed here that do not appear in List of dog breeds, which is the wikipedia master list of dog breeds. Breeds need to be researched to ensure the correct and most commonly used name in English sources (e.g., FCI and with some weight to occurrences in English web sites) and added to the main list as appropriate. Elf | Talk 01:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Pariah dogs

Sorry to be so fussy about what's in this article, but should pariah type dogs really be included? I realize that most kennel clubs lump them together into one group, but it seems unencyclopedic to do it here. And should there be a list of pariah type dogs on the Pariah dog article. Perhaps there could be two sections in sight hound, one for "true" sight hounds, and one for pariah types. --Pharaoh Hound 12:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

No need to be sorry. You've got legitimate questions. Yes, it would seem to me that pariah dog should list various pariah types or "breeds". And I'd also agree that maybe being explicit here about which pariah dog types are identifiable as sight hounds would be a good idea. Elf | Talk 01:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help in sorting these lists out. I agree with the comment that Richard Hawkins made below, the work that the dog is/was used for should be important in deciding which breeds are sighthounds. I'll do some research on some of the questionable breeds on this list, and try to figure out whether they belong here or not. Also, I noticed that a lot of the breeds on this list are just different names for each other (eg. Tazi and Afghan Hound), I'll start sorting that out. Pharaoh Hound 13:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

With refrence to "Kangaroo dog - Australian Greyhound" and more.

Will some editor or administrator please explain (without anonymously deleting this discussion contribution) why this heading has been changed from "Kangaroo dog" to "Australian Greyhound"? For centuries this "cross-breed" has been referred to as a Kangaroo dog or "Roo dog". Now if anyone refers to this heading in this Sighthound article, the historical continuity (provenance) has been lost. Literature which will shed light on the cross breed has historically named it the Kangaroo dog, not the Australian Greyhound. Australian Greyhounds do not exist as a pure breed, unless in mistaken reference to race track (English) Greyhounds which have been bred in Australia. This sort of thing is very confusing, as is much of the information - or lack of systematic information on the Sighthound page. See for instance "Rajapalayam"--Richard Hawkins 17:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC).

I thought the name Australian Greyhound was also a proper term, but I seem to be mistaken. I shall correct that now. And this list is based more on the purpose of the breed than the type, thus the Rajapalayam is listed, for it has been used to hunt deer and hare. Vortex 17:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Vortex! At last some sort of discussion seems feasible. The Rajapalayam hound is better known in the literature as the Poligar. Unfortunately the link in the Sighthound List takes one directly to the page on the Indian City. Can you please explain why the "Circassian hare hound" is on the list - it does not exist. (Although I'm pleased to see that the historic name is now at least correctly spelled). Neither - as far as I know - does the "Croatian Greyhound" exist. I'm hoping to prevent this Sighthound page from becoming a List Farm. Entries must surely have some provenance, proof of existence and proof of function, so that they truly benefit the reader/user of Wikipedia.--Richard Hawkins 18:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Rajapalayam has an article at Rajapalayam (dog). I -and it seems many others who modified this list- have retrieved some information on these breeds at the following link. http://home.swipnet.se/~w-40770/star/rare/rare2.html It may not seem the most reputable site for information on sighthounds, and does not seem to be updated, but it does offer some info and rare sighthounds that might exist. I feel the same as you, I do not want this list to have just any sighthounds anonymous users have heard of but have not researched, and I have removed quite a few duplicates and breeds which I have absolutely no information on, but I feel that we should list breeds that have a good chance that they exist, even if there is not a large amount of information out there yet. There are many, many breeds out there that most people have never heard of, and have not had any information written on them, but they exist. Vortex 03:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please change the page heading to "Sighthound"

which is current, and historic, use; it is not and never has been "Sight Hound".--Richard Hawkins 02:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree with you. I think this article should be moved to Sighthound. Vortex 03:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

rare sighthounds that might exist

Vortex "possible, might" that is too many indefinites :) A Rajapalayam reference on a dog page that links directly to an article on the Indian city is inefficient and unhelpful. Using internet information as research is the path of least resistance, it is notoriously unreliable and misguiding. I know the website you referred to, it was set up by Susann Stjernborg, who was actively collecting exotic rare and defunct breeds, some of them non-sighthounds some of them not breeds. I declined to give her a photograph of the (extinct) Frisian Greyhound because I was still working on the Dutch Arrian at the time. Consider the host of well edited reference material in the libraries of the world on sighthounds and scent hounds, on their work and everything else that defines them. The editors of this sighthound page could also compare and calibrate its content with the equivalent pages in other language versions of Wikipedia. There is enough to do in describing known and existing sighthounds without collecting "possibles". Please explain why the historic reference and non-existent "Circassian hare hound" is listed, provide proof that there is such a thing as the Croatian Greyhound, and please explain why the Chort has two listings one of them has "Eastern Greyhound" attached to it, which is very confusing and quite incorrect. Is someone making this up? I have more questions - the sighthound list is simply not good enough.--Richard Hawkins 18:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I seemed to have overlooked that. Pardon my bad grammar. ;) And I seem to have overlooked the Rajapalayam link. Thank you for pointing that out. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I do not like researching online, and would much prefer to get my information from books. I wouldn't say internet research is the path of least resistance, as it is much more difficult to find information on breeds through the internet than through books, in my opinion. Do you have any book recommendations on sighthounds? I would much appreciate some sighthound references, as I seem to have a lack of books on them. :)

I have listed both the Circassian Hare Hound and the Croatian Greyhound from that site I mentioned previously, but I'm starting to believe I should remove them, and the other breeds listed that have no further info on them at the moment, and may add them only after I have found sufficient and credible information on them. And I added Eastern Greyhound next to the Chortaj because that is an alternate name for the breed.

In your opinion, how much information has to be available on a breed before you would be willing to list it in this article? And what is your opinion on the obscure dog breeds found in the book Dogs: The Ultimate Dictionary of over 1000 Dog Breeds by Desmond Morris? There are some breeds listed in there that have absolutely no alternate source of information on them. Vortex 21:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Vortex, that was a joke about the "indefinites", your grammar is just fine :) However there was serious side to that remark of mine, as a lexicographer you should be writing about things you know, not collecting names about which very little or nothing is known for sure. For instance the Telomian is forest dog, that means it cannor run very fast, it cannot see far, and hunts by scent and hearing. Its build, or conformation, preclude it from being a true sighthound. This is exactly the same as the Basenji. Only in North America is the Basenji considered by some to be a sighthound - simply because it was allowed to be eligible for ASFA lure coursing. Attaching Eastern Greyhound to the Chort is very confusing, in Europe it is simply know as Chort. There is a distiction bewteen Western and Eastern (more properly Oriental) sighthounds which is the geographical divide between Europe, and the Middle east and Asia. Generally speaking European or Western sighthounds have rose-ears and the Oriental or Eastern sighthounds have hanging ears. The exception being the Galgo, which during the Caliphate in Spain most likely was crossed to the Sloughi. There are some specialised books on sighthounds, I gave you two American titles: Copold and Salmon. Two British titles are Popular Sighthounds by J. Cunliffe, Popular Dogs 1992, and All about Gazehounds by J. Russell, Pelham 1976. A coursing title which explains much about sighthounds (and some non-sighthounds) is Grant-Rennick's Coursing, the Pursuit of Game with Gazehounds The Standfast Sporting Library 1977. There are other European sources in different languages. It is advisable to consider some sort of policy for the dog, and or hound pages of Wikipedia. Are you going to collect names or are you going to supply real information? Are you going to include every type of dog or are you going to include only "breeds"? Are you aware of the distinction between, type or variety, and breed? Are you aware that pariah dogs are not breeds? Listed dogs that are not breeds and have no information may be interesting in some exotic way, they are however quite trivial - especially if you don't know how they are used, or what their function is, ergo whether they are a sighthound or a scent hound, or neither. --Richard Hawkins 16:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I know the Telomian is related to the Basenji and may even be their predecessors, and the Basenji is a sighthound in some ways. They can perform the double suspension gallop, they have keen eyesight, and they were not only used to drive game towards the nets, they were also used to chase and capture hare and other small mammals at speed. And there are Basenji-like dogs that live in with the tribes in some areas of savanna to hunt game.

I appreciate your recommendations, as I am a book addict, and I especially love reading new canine books. :)

I am aware of the difference between varieties, breeds and types, Mr. Hawkins. And I am aware that a pariah dog is a type, I study pariah dogs fervently as they are my specialty. I am not speaking of them in the sense that pariah dogs are mongrels. They are a definite type, and there are some pure breeds which closely resemble and are still actively pariah dogs, such as Canaan Dogs and Carolina Dogs. This list was in worse shape before I edited it, as it had pariah dogs listed, such as the Carolina Dog, it even had a spitz listed! So as you can see, this list is still being cleaned up and tweaked. And I know the purpose of all breeds I list. I do not just pick out a name that sounds exotic and list it. I need more proof than that. There are many breeds I could have listed here but have not on lack of information. And I will be creating dog articles and expanding stubs in the near future, so people have information on rare breeds.

Do not think I do not appreciate input though, as I am open minded to all suggestions and edits, and I am not ashamed to admit when I am wrong.

By the way, I have removed Eastern Greyhound, as you have mentioned, it seemed incorrect. And I did not notice that the Chortaj was already listed under Hortaya Borzaya. Thank you for making these errors visible to me. Vortex 18:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Vortex, thank you for keeping an open mind.

You cannot possibly know if the Telomian is related to the Basenji.

The Basenji has never been used to chase and take hare by speed.

Please add another book to your list: Brown C.M. Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis Hoflin 1986.

I quote: In dog show circles, it is commonly believed that sighthounds are the only breeds of dogs using the double suspension gallop. Not so. Any dog which travels fast enough is likely to use the double suspension gallop, and many do…” - “… A sighthound’s primary function is to follow game by sight with speed in open areas as opposed to scent hounds following a trail by odor. High speed causes the double suspension gallop to occur. It is not the criterion used to determine what is or is not a sighthound. Because a Basenji or a Doberman uses the double suspension gallop does not make them a sighthound; neither has a primary function of hunting game by sight in open areas with speed. Curtis Brown 1986

You really need to understand your subject before you write about it.--Richard Hawkins 00:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Ack, I thought I edited that. I know there is no proof of that Telomians are related to the Basenji. I honestly don't believe they are. I think they are quite distinct. I read somewhere that they could be and that must have stuck in my mind. Pardon me. ;)

I tend to disagree with that. I have a read a great many books that say of the Basenji coursing small mammals and hares. I shall research it further though.

Many thanks for the recommendation. :) I shall try to acquire these books immediately.

That's fascinating. I've always held the common belief of the double suspension gallop as a sighthound specific quality. Thank you for enlightening me on this fact. So would you say all breeds are capable of the double suspension, or is it more breed or size specific?

Very true. Exactly why I don't edit much on Wikipedia except dogs. ;) Vortex 03:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Repeating the defining working aspects of sighthounds

Vortex, Basenjis do not take hare by speed. If they could they would be built like Greyhounds. Sighthounds take their game by sight, and speed. Scent hounds take their game by scent, and endurance.

For instance, Harriers were bred to take hare, they are scent hounds, they can even be called running hounds/chiens courants they pursue their prey methodically, by scent, under the control of a handler or hunter. Sighthounds pursue their prey by sight and speed, independant of the hunter. All dogs are capable of the double suspension gallop. Sighthounds simply do it better, i.e. more efficiently, much faster. --216.168.99.95 00:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am going to assume this post is yours, Richard Hawkins?

I am well aware of the difference between sighthounds and scent hounds, and I know their methods. But Basenjis use sight and scent equally well when hunting, such as the Pharaoh Hound and other various Mediterranean hounds, even if they are unable to course hare and larger animals. That's why they jump in tall grasses to see, they don't just use their sense of smell. They are visual dogs, and they have the drive of a sighthound. I believe if they were larger they could be classified as a sighthound. But I seem to be fighting a losing battle, and since they are not successful in coursing hare, I should remove them from the list, correct?

Do you have any other objections to this list that I am not aware of? Maybe you would like to remove the Rhodesian Rigdeback, perhaps? As they are equally happy hunting by scent as by sight, and I am not aware of them being used as coursing hounds, as they tend to act and are used more often as scent hounds. They kept the lion at bay, they did not usually course it. If they did any running with lions, it was probably to run away and keep a safe distance. ;) Vortex 15:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Vortex, that previous message was mine, I made a mistake with the automatic signature. The sight part of sighthound is usually taken too literally by people that do not really know gazehounds/greyhounds. Look again at that quote from Curtis Brown. It is quite right and factual. Sighthounds take their game by speed in open terrain. All hounds look at their game when they are close enough to see it. If they did not, then they would be blind. If foxhounds have their fox in view, they take their nose off the ground and run after it. That does not make them sighthounds. Please see my previous posts on the Mediterranean Island hunting dogs and others such as the Rhodesian Ridgebacks. The MI hunting dogs are all scent hounds, at least three of them have a documented working history or field trial which records that - Cirneco, Podenco, and Kelb. They scent hunt rabbits, which are usually hidden, demanding scent and hearing work, co-operation with the pack and with the hunter - none of these qualities are required for sighthounds (with perhaps the exception of co-operation which in judging modern coursing with Borzoi running as a leash of three or sworra is a required element). Moreover much of the hunting of rabbits is done in the dark to avoid heat ... The Portuguese Podengo's have never been considered to be sighthounds. Please note that Majorcans that know their Podenco's well are greatly insulted when the ignorant public takes them to be sighthounds. They think of sighthounds as being pretty stupid dogs. They can only do one thing, that is run fast. I have hunted with village dogs in Kenya in the Rift Valley. They are, just as Basenji's, used as driving dogs for wounded game. None of the African types in "Black Africa" are sighthounds. They are used as hounds to scent, track, flush, drive and retrieve game. It is not impossible that due to Colonial and Post-colonial influence that some of the African village dogs have been crossed with sighthounds namely Greyhounds. If anyone would like to claim sighthound status for these types then they should give provenance, proof of sighthound activity such as coursing. Which is rare as most people there prefer to shoot game, not course it. A brief note on morphology: Pariah's have long been confused with sighthounds because of their lean body shape and tuck-up, in their case they are marks of an economical feeder that has to survive from scraps, or feed itself. In the case of Podenco's, they have long legs not because they run fast, but because they have to be fantastic jumpers in heavy brush, they should also have a fairly tubular body shape (no deep chest) as they are required to be extremely agile. The named dogs in italics are in my opinion certainly not sighthounds. Note once again that the Cretan dog Ichnilatis is even called a tracking dog. I need to look at some of the rest, particularly those from the Indian sub-continent. Simply because they have been used on hare does not guarantee that they are sighthounds. Please see my earlier comments on Ridgebacks. They were used to drive flush and chase off predators. Some lions would be frightened off by a pack of dogs. RR's were farm and guard dogs occasionally used as pack hounds. People need to understand what the differnce is between a hound and a sighthound. You should only remove anything from this list if the arguments against it having sighthound status are convincing and verifiable. On the other hand, hounds should only be on this list if they have a convincing and verifiable history of working as a sighthound.

Afgan Hound Africanis (Bantu Hound, Hottentott Hound, Kafir Hound, Khoikhoi Hound, Zulu Hound) American Staghound Azawakh Basenji Borzoi Chart Polski (Polish Greyhound) Chippiparai Circassian Orloff Wolfhound Cirneco dell'Etna Combai Galgo Español (Spanish Greyhound) Greyhound Hortaya Borzaya (Chortaj) Ibizan Hound (Podenco Ibicenco) Irish Wolfhound Italian Greyhound Kaikadi Kangaroo Dog Kanni Khalag Tazi Kritikos Lagonikos (Kritikos Ichnilatis, Cretan Hound) Longdog Lurcher Magyar Agar (Hungarian Greyhound) Mudhol Hound Pharaoh Hound (Kelb tal-Fenek) Podenco Canario (Canary Islands Hound) Podenco Andaluz (Andaluzian Podengo) Portuguese Podengo (Podengo Portugues) Rajapalayam Rampur Greyhound Rhodesian Ridgeback Saluki Santal Hound Scottish Deerhound Silken Windhound Sloughi South Russian Steppe Hound Taigan Tasy Telomian Vaghari Greyhound Whippet

Please note that it is Podenco Andaluz, Andaluzian Podenco.

--Richard Hawkins 19:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Definition of "Sighthound"

Please note that the word is a single word = Sighthound. The last compiler of this article is obviously not a native English speaker - no problem there - however there are grammatical as well as the more important factual errors.

The Mediterranean island hunting dogs such as the Podenco (Ibizan hound), Cirneco, Pharaoh hound, are not considered to be true sighthounds in their countries of origin, they all have field trials which demand scent hunting while under supervision by their handler - this disqualifies them as sighthounds. The same can be said of the Portuguese Podengos.

The Rhodesian Ridgeback is a multi-utilitarian farm and guard dog, it is not a sighthound.

It does not suffice to assume sighthound identity for breeds, or varieties, or crossbred dogs, without significant proof of their original work in their country of origin.

Richard Hawkins bh@fernhill.com

About "sight hound"--reliable sources vary on whether it's one word or two. We've used it on wikipedia as two words in part to match "scent hound". We could debate it; I'd guess that one word is probably more commonly used than 2, but my preference would be to leave it as 2 words.

About Rhodesian Ridgeback: The AKC, for one, classifies it as a coursing hound. It's one of those multiuse breeds whose primary purpose is probably in the eye of the beholder or of the particular lineage of the individual dog. Maybe very much like the Catahoula Leopard Dog, where you can get well-bred representatives of the breed that are obviously suited for guarding or hunting large boar, and others that are obviously suited primarily for herding flocks. So the Ridgeback could be listed in multiple places on Wikipedia according to its various uses; there are many breeds like that.

Elf | Talk 01:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Elf - definitions and usage in Wikipedia should not be about your personal preference, but about provenance, they should be verifiable. The classic way to spell "sighthound" in the English language both in North America and the UK is as one word. That defines it, self evidently, as a modern word - in apposition to "scent hound". The AKC certainly does not "classify" the Ridgeback as a "coursing hound". Read their latest manual "The Complete Dog Book". That choice is up to the national RR breed club. The AKC does recognise the RR as a "hound". (There is no formal or classified sighthound group in AKC, CKC, or KC usage). It is eligible for AKC lure coursing trials because it had been accepted earlier as such by ASFA (just like the Basenji - another hunting dog which is not a sighthound). The purpose of a breed should never be left up to "the eye of a beholder", that way you make a mockery of true or documented history and use. This too should be verifiable. The Rhodesian Ridgeback is a farm and hunting dog, which can be quite correctly kept in the hound group - it is not a sighthound. Neither should any of the Mediterranean Island hunting dogs correctly be termed sighthounds. They are themselves neither "pariah" nor "primitive" - however they are "hounds". Richard Hawkins, 30 May 2006.

Further to all of this on "breed", "variety" "type" etc of dogs, please note that "pariah" is a description of a native or regional non-thoroughbred dog-type (often termed a village dog). Pariah dogs are not "breeds" in the English usage of: a thoroughbred "pedigree" dog, recognised by its National Kennel Club, and documented in a national stud book. Pariahs are types, or varieties, they are not breeds. With reference to the Tazi. Please note this is a regional variety of the Afghan Hound. The "Afghan Hound" is itself represented over a vast geographical area (similar to the Saluki), and occurs in different regional varieties such as Taigan, Tazi etc. Local indigenous peoples will usually see these hounds as their very own version of "a sighthound", and possibly recognise that they are related to other sighthound types in the region. The type itself may, or may not, be recognised by a National or International Kennel Club - a formal institute which is itself usually separated and at a great distance from where the variety lives and is used. One major clue to understanding origin and use in hunting dogs is in knowing the authentic nomenclature, its associations or meaning, such as in: saluqi, keb tal-fenek, podenco, tazi, taigan, magyar, chort, borzaya, etc. etc..

Richard Hawkins, 30 May 2006.

Neither "sight hound", nor "sighthound" appear in the OED. --G0zer 22:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Attention Administrator/Elf

Please see the modern use of the word in the specific, English language literature, much of which is cited on the internet. "Sight Hound" is highly unusual and confusing. It does not reflect current usage.--Richard Hawkins 19:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Attention "Pharaoh Hound"/Emily, as a Canadian you should know that it is "Sighthound", spelled as a single word, especially if you are a subscriber to Dogs In Canada  ;) Can we please agree to stick to that convention?--Richard Hawkins 19:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'm assuming you're refering to my previous edits. Let me explain then, I spelled it as two words not because I think that it's correct (because it's not), but because the convention is that when the subject of the article is spelled, it is spelled the same as the article name. By the way, any registered user can move pages. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 21:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you --Pharaoh Hound for your perfectly reasonable explanation. I attempted an unsuccessful move. I would prefer some consensus, and I maintain that "sight hound" is highly unusual, thus confusing.--Richard Hawkins 22:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Sighthound. Joelito (talk) 16:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Sight hound → Sighthound – seems to me that Sighthound is in more common usage, and should be the proper page - --Richard Hawkins 22:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

• Support - oxford english dictionary and google agree that 'sighthound' is the most commonly used word, although sight hound is not confusing or invalid, so a redirect should remain. - Trysha ^(talk) 21:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support - Please change the page heading to "Sighthound" which is current, and historic, use; it is not and never has been "Sight Hound".--Richard Hawkins 02:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support - I quite agree with you. I think this article should be moved to Sighthound. Vortex 03:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support - with redirect. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 21:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I propose a compromise for "debated" sightounds

Seeing as there will probably never be total agreement over Basenjis, Ridgebacks, "Mediterranean sighthounds" and the like, I propose that there should be a new section for them on this page which agknowledges that they are controversial. This keeps with the NPOV policy better than leaving them up there in the list without addressing the debate surrounding them, or removing them from this page entirely. Perhaps there should be subsections for the major debated breeds such as basenjis and ridgebacks that discusses the debate surrounding that specific breed. However, before I impliment this I would like some consensus on whether this is an acceptable compromise, and what breeds should be included. The breeds a propose should go in this section are:

• Basenji
• Rhodesian Ridgeback
• Ibizan Hound
• Pharaoh Hound
• Italian Greyhound
• Cirneco dell'Etna
• Africanis
• Portuguese Podengo
• Rajapalayam
• Poddenco Canario
• Podenco Andaluz
• Cretan Hound
• Podengo Galego

There are undoubtably more that should be on here, but I don't have much time to research that sort of thing at this moment so I'll leave the list at that for now. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Controversial (or non-sighthound) listing

The solution is quite simple.

Firstly however, please explain what a Podengo Galego is. No Podengo has ever been considered a sighthound in Europe, its own region of origin. Re. Canario - The correct spelling is "Podenco" Canario. Does the Podenco Andaluz still exist? Africanis is not a breed, it is a collective noun for a number of as yet poorly described "native" and cross-bred dogs. Please note that the Blackmouth Cur is a scenthound.

It would be sensible, as I have explained earlier, to refrain from simply continually adding breeds or even types of dogs to "the sighthound list", unless they have an authentic, demonstrable, and documented history of sighthound hunting = coursing. If they are not considered as sighthounds by the FCI - the only International Kennel grouping - then please require the author to supply the historical basis or proof of why a particular dog or breed is being proposed as a sighthound. Encylopedic content must be verifiable--Richard Hawkins 21:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As a Post Script to my contribution to all of the above discussion I would like to refer to the last lines of the current Rhodesian Ridgeback article: "In general Ridgebacks pursue prey by sight, and if the prey is not in sight, Ridgebacks track by scent." This is in my opinion exemplary for the lack of understanding of those who are writing in Wikipedia on how Hounds in general hunt, and on the identity of those dogs which are called Sighthounds in specific. All dogs use sight when they can see their prey! Most dogs will scent when they cannot see their prey. Most Hounds will do that. However, some Sighthounds will not even seriously attempt scent hunting - for any length of time. Sighthounds are above all specialists in the speed capture of their prey - not in any form of occasional scent hunting. Please note that some of the listed Sighthound breeds have formalised scent hunt trials, or scent hunt field work, in their countries of origin. Notably the Cirneco, the Podenco and the Kelb. To pretend otherwise is an insult to the breed experts of the countries of origin, and to those that consult our contributions to Wikipedia. It is "work" that defines the identity of the "breed".--216.168.125.226 23:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to specify with references what registry recognizes that a certain breed is a sighthound. I am not satisfied that all the breeds listed in the article are sighthounds. Mikieminnow 13:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

In principle it should be evident in the box on the right hand side of the page of each breed, or variety of dog. Under "Classification and Breed Standard", the only organisations that have a formal Sighthound Group are the FCI and the UKC. In the case of the FCI it should be made more visible, or made apparent on the Wiki page, that Group X is The Sighthound group. Quite frankly the UKC has no idea what sighthounds are. Putting sighthounds and pariah type dogs in the same group is incorrect and confusing. Neither the AKC, CKC or KC have "sighthound groups" - that will probably change in the case of the AKC - and I fear that their erroneous image of current ASFA/AKC lure coursing breeds will become the formal sighthound group. If they do that, they will be falsifying the history of these dogs. Currently my article "What is a sighthound?", Dogs In Canada, April 2006, has been chosen as a finalist for the essay category by the Dog Writers Association of America writing competition - so I haven't yet given up hope that someone in North America is listening to reason.--Richard Hawkins 21:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

And the beat goes on... Basenji is being repeatedly added to the Sighthound page as a Sighthound. In the FCI, Basenji is classified as a Spitz/Primitive breed, not a Sighthound. I will remove and will continue to remove Basenji from the list of Sighthounds. Mikieminnow 02:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Add Peruvian Inca Orchid to the list of non-Sighthounds being added to the list of Sighthounds. Mikieminnow 14:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

With reference to the new heading "Debate around breed inclusion", I'm not sure it's wise to take that discussion on to the main page, but if you (KevinPeuhkurinen) persist, I will do my best to see that it is factually correct and can stand some analysis. The Canadian Kennel Club does not yet formally recognise "sighthounds". ASFA is not responsible for claiming sighthound status of any of her eligible breeds - that onus is put on the host breed club in the USA which wishes to have their breed eligible for ASFA lure coursing. Eligibility in ASFA or CSFA lure coursing is not proof of a breed being a true sighthound. For a better understanding of that statement please see the discussion above.--Richard Hawkins 22:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Irish Wolfhounds

Irish Wolfhounds are not sighthounds to my knowlege- they lack the body build and would probably be in the simple hound category. Wolfie the Marshmallow 23:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

They are most definitely sighthounds. Irish Wolfhounds have traditionally been used to hunt game by sight. http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/ Mikieminnow 16:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)