Talk:Simba rebellion

POV template

I have added a POV template to this article and, to show this is not just a drive-by tagging, will add reasons:

1. Frequent use of rather impartial terminology and weasel words. "Shaman", for instance, is a word with a particular meaning and seems to be used here as a catch-all term for a religious figure in indigenous Congolese religion.
2. Ethnocentrism. "Modernity" here clearly equals "Western" in the eyes of the writer. A few similar instances of this (though certainly a good reflection of early secondary literature on the subject) in which the Simbas are depicted as both irrational and militarily incompetent. Whether or not this is true can be treated with more subtlety.
3. The white mercenaries. No mention of the considerable and well-documented atrocities committed by 5 Commando during the conflict, while comparable Simba ones are heavily labeled.

Hopefully none of this should be too contentious. —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:55, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I am in general sympathy with what Brigade Piron has written. I am no expert on the Congo but I have taken an interest its history for many years. What strikes me about the article "Simba Rebellion" is not that any of it is untrue - it is possible that every word is true and of course all of those things are worth knowing. However, it does strike me as extremely biased and one-sided - it is as though someone were to write an account of the Second World War focusing purely on allied atrocities and leaving out any of the gruesome facts about the Nazis, concentration camps etc.

What I wanted to know when I opened the article, is more about how the movement arose - I can certainly say that it arose in the context of the suppression of the left in Kinshasha and elsewhere, some would say subversion of democracy - many of its central figures had played an active part in the Movement National Congolaise - what kind of government did these people set up and what parts did they play - how did things develop? I know that after the murder of Lumumba, an opposition government of his supporters emerged in Kisangani - I would love to know more about it, what happened to it and if there is a continuity between it and the later Stanleyville government - the article doesn't even mention the name of the movement (yes, I know Simbas but that was not the official name, which I forget). The whole article appears to have been written using only sources opposed to the regime who wanted to justify its suppression. For example there are bald references to "Prime Minister Tshombe" as if this was some respectable figure, and without mentioning anything of the part he had played in Congolese history. 79.76.25.134 (talk) 19:42, 28 February 2016 (UTC)Alex White 28/02/2016

Unfortunately Brigade Piron is correct in the assessment that the article reflects the early secondary material that is available on the topic of this rebellion. Whilst newer sources have a more balanced view it is my opinion that this article requires quite significant work. I believe that the article needs to be entirely rewritten to reflect both concerns expressed and to make it a more useful source of information. If anyone is interested in contributing to this project then a good place to start would be David Van Reybrouck, Congo: the epic history of a people and Georges Nzongola-Ntalaja, Congo From Leopold to Kabila: a people's history. ADHiggins (talk) 23:22, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Rebellion did not end in November 1964

Che Guevara left in November 1965, after 7 months. How could he aid the Simbas if the rebellion didn't exist? Uglemat (talk) 07:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Because he was involved with the remnants in South Kivu, commanded by Laurent Kabila. By November 1964, the rebellion had collapsed.—Brigade Piron (talk) 09:19, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Nicolas olenga

Shouldn't this figure have his own article? Mariomassone (talk) 20:57, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

written by revisionist...

Why is there no mention of the 1964 "stanleyville massacre" in this article? Maybe because it does not fit the revisionist left wing narative of the writer...?

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moordpartij_Stanleystad_1964 2A02:A03F:8B18:9300:F9A6:5838:939B:A862 (talk) 00:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not mentioned by name, but if you read the article you'll see the mentions of the Simbas killing thousands of Congolese and 200 non-Congolese. Maybe you couldn't read it because you were too distracted by your desire to see a conspiracy where it does not exist. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Flag

@Applodion can you link to the source you're mentioning of them stepping on this flag, because I literally just posted a source of them waving the flag in Stanleyville and an article talking about them using that as their flag NorthTension (talk) 14:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@NorthTension: See here. The simple truth is that the Simbas were far too large and complex as an insurgent force to actually assign them a common flag or ideology. Some of them were Lumubists, and among those there were probably several who still used the old flag. Others were Communists, and these would have rejected the 1960 flag. In fact, your first source does not provide a reference or photo to support its claim that the rebels used the old flag. Your second one only showcases that the old flag is still flying at a small flagpole as a Simba parade goes by. We have not idea whether the Simbas put them there or locals who supported the previous government, and initially assumed that the Simbas had come to to restore the old system. Applodion (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Historical correctness aside, we would need a WP:RS to be able to support this claim otherwise it would be WP:OR. It is also worth mentioning that flags in infoboxes are there purely for convenience and are not a requirement. —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:17, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I've seen no literature which has assigned an official flag to the Simbas. It's possible they announced one or used certain colors at least in practice (like the insurgents in Burundi in 1972 who declared the Republic of Martyazo), but, to reiterate, sources are what we need. But as Applodion suggests I sincerely doubt that the Simbas were using the original Congolese flag as a standard. -Indy beetle (talk) 10:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I know this was last year but I wanted to apologize anyhow if this came off a lot ruder than I had meant it, so I'm really sorry. NorthTension (talk) 04:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@NorthTension: I do not think that you came across as rude; merely direct. Still, thank you for the gesture. Applodion (talk) 19:33, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree, no harm no foul. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:56, 24 February 2023 (UTC)