Talk:Skanderbeg

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2023

If Albania was founded and established as a country in 1912 how is possible that he was Albanian in that time? Albania didn't exist? 2601:151:C301:3340:3147:880:F58E:19CF (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. see Albanian principalities Cannolis (talk) 22:52, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Albania had their first confirmed (there are earlier ones but simply not confirmed) during the 12th century, even if they didn’t have a state it doesn’t mean that they didn’t exist. By this logic Kurds don’t exist. 92.22.219.166 (talk) 01:32, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

It is a great question. The rise of Albanian nationalism started in the late 18th century which is consistent with the rise of nationalism in other European countries. [1] [2] During the historical period in which Skanderbeg lived organized religion played a predominant role in society and religious beliefs were much more important than nationalism in the historical context of the 20th century. [3] [4] In addition, it is almost universally and scientifically accepted that the people who live in what was established as Albania in 1912 are ethnically different from their neighbors. These historical facts do not necessarily mean that there was no Albania before 1912 just because it was not recognized as a state, and that Skanderbeg was not Albanian. This information is relevant to the question and the article because Skanderbeg was the most prominent figure in the rise, establishment, and recognition of the Albanian state. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:D914:CEF0:F24D:5D78 (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The islamic view

The article is almost exclusively presenting the western-albanian view on the subject. However, there is a good volume of islamic/ottoman historiography on Sk., claiming that the western is "propaganda". Of course the islamic historiography can also be characterized as "propaganda", but the spirit of WP is to present all views, so as to produce the famous "neutral p.o.v.". Would it be proper to open a section presenting the islamic (or pro-Ottoman / Turkish) point of view? Skylax30 (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Your point being? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

KOPAŃSKI, A. B. (1997). ISLAMIZATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE MIDDLE AGES: THE PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE PREDICAMENT OF THE MODERN HISTORIOGRAPHY. Islamic Studies, 36(2/3), 191–208. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23076194

• Ivan Kastrioti, serbo-albanian war lord (p. 195).
• The clans of southern and central Albanians refused to join Skanderbeg.
• Kastrioti and others received every year 1.400 golden ducats from the Pope.

WP:FRINGE on the first two. Gjon Kastrioti was most definitely not Serbo-Albanian, and some of the southern and central clans did indeed join Skanderbeg (e.g. Muzaka, Arianiti, Topia and smaller clans and groups). The last one may be true, I don't know the exact amount, but I think he did receive minimal financial aid from the Pope. Based on the fact that the paper calls Gjon Kastrioti a Serbo-Albanian warlord, the source shouldn't be used. Additionally, this isn't technically the Islamic/Ottoman view on anything - he was a Pole who converted to Islam during adulthood and was very religiously-biased in his work. Botushali (talk) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course this source can't be used, since it has been decided that the article must be an albanian fiction. However, if you read Karl Hopf, which is a source in the article, citing John Musachi, you may see that Skanderbeg was 'per natura Serviano" (born Serbian). (Karl Hopf, Reise durch die Gebiete des Drin und Wardar, 1867 p. 303, citing J.Musaki (who claimed that his is relative of Sk's family):

"Perche in Albania era entrato Scanderbeg uomo valente e per natura Serviano" [5]. Have a nice day.

Have you actually read Gjon Muzaka’s work? I’m pretty certain it’s free to read online. Botushali (talk) 07:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Per natura Serviano, means "of a Serbian nature", or "Serbian character, disposition" (he was very tall, as Giuseppe Valentini has shown). Please do not distort the sources, or give them a meaning they do not have. If someone wanted to write born Serbian he would had used nato Serviano instead; please refer to [6]. ShockedSkater (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I was searching for "Gjon" + "Muzaka" but it didn't find anything. Can you paste the link here, please? However, I found Marinus Barletius' book and he doesn't mention any "Albanian" Georgius Castriotus. It doesn't even say that he was born somewhere in Albania.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Jokes aside, the memoirs of Giovanni Musachi is here, published by K. Hopf. Starts from p. 270. The "natura Serviano" is in p. 334. [7]. Of course it's free.

Here you go - https://books.google.com/books/about/Early_Albania.html?id=_sHmTRCEe7kC - nowhere does it say in John’s original work that which you put above. Not only is Karl Hopf outdated, but he is incorrect in what he is saying. Botushali (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Karl Hopf has been accused of making a mess of his genealogies, or misreading documents, but I assure you he is not outdated. ShockedSkater (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Karl Hopf’s work from 1867 is outdated when it comes to the ethnicity of Skanderbeg’s family. We have much more recent sources that clearly state his paternal side was purely Albanian. Botushali (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Karl Hopf published a documentary collection, called Chroniques gréco-romaines, which as the name precisely states, is a collection of Greek-Roman chronicles; among these chronicles is the Breve Memoria, or "Short Memoir" of Giovanni Musachi. Now, which part of Giovanni Musachi is outdated? I'm not sure if you are familiar with this work, of which you paste a link that shows what, precisely? ShockedSkater (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

A link to the up-to-date translation in a book by a Robert Elsie. Botushali (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@ShockedSkater: Is this your first and only account? The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle. Breve memoria is a medieval text which can be cited via reliable secondary sources, but not via Hopf.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Well it happens that the only edition we have is the one published by Hopf. Do you have any other reliable, secondary sources on the Breve Memoria, that can be cited via reliable sources, but not through Hopf? Because by publishing it, Hopf saved the Memoria; the original is lost, not to be found anywhere.

Not my first, I had an account years ago, got disinterested with the project. Can't remember for sure right now.

Do you have any sources that support the: "The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle" statement ShockedSkater (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Is anybody else enjoying that K. Hopf is good for the article to claim that Sk's mother was Albanian (page?), but not good to cite Musachi that Sk was Serbian? Properly interpreted, all this says that both of Sk's parents were Serbians, and therefore if Musachi was Voisava's relative, he was also Serbian, unless we find Musachi quoting that Sk's mother was "Albanian". After that we can ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanislav (Stanisha).--Skylax30 (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Please tell me what "di natura Serviano" means, by "nature a Serbian", or by character, a Serbian, or by disposition, a Serbian, or he looked like Bosnians. If it read "di origine Serviano", "nato Serviano" that would be OK. That would mean he was born a Serb. Vojsava is Albanian because the link with her sister Agnese, the mother of Andrea Angeli is attested in other sources, that say the Angeli were nephews of Skanderbeg on his maternal side (Girolamo Angeli, or Paolo Angeli, Skanderbeg's trusted counselor and diplomat). Now, the Angeli are most definitely not Serbian, or having to do with the Brankovitch, they're Drivastine Catholics (from Drisht). It's either this, or that; you cannot possibly be Serbian on another side, beside your mother and father. Please see [8] on the meaning of "natura" in Italian. For example: Forsi voi credete, o donna, che io consumato da molti anni, & per natura rozo - From: Michelangelo Biondo: "Angitia cortigiana" (Maybe you believe, o woman, that I, consumed from many years now, rough by nature...). [9] If you ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanisha (sic!) and not Stanislav, I might accidentally add they were Pravoslav Orthodox in the beginning, then his father took the name Hamza (Amesa in Latin sources, Pope Pius). They were not Slavs, they were Pravoslavs of the Slavonic rite, the difference between which I'm sure you know and appreciate. ShockedSkater (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Wow, this is some science! So, Vojsava had not a sister called Mara Brankovich? And according to your "scientific" method, if Serbiano means Orthodox, all the supposed to be "Albanians" are so in what sense?

Or the Brankovich incident, when the Serbs blocked Skanderbeg the way so he did not join Hunyadi, because Brankovitch didn't want to mess up his good relations with the Turks. No mention is made of this fantastic origin from the Brankovich, for example, "Skanderbeg, who was related to Brankovich by way of his mother, told him etc. etc.". There are no hints whatsoever. The Brankovich origin is kind of ridiculous, Ivan Kastrioti's father owned only 2 villages in Dibra. If you were a Brankovich, that pretty much owned all Kosovo - a large swathe of the Balkans, would you give your daughter in marriage to a guy whose father Paul had only 2 villages? ShockedSkater (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding an inaccurate and incorrect source from the 19th century is against WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:FRINGE. It’s not even the Turkish/Islamic view, which is what you discussed in the initial comment on this thread. Botushali (talk) 23:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

What source are you talking about? ShockedSkater (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Hopf's source. My comment was directed towards Skylax. Botushali (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

@ShockedSkater: Read Noli (1968) for details about the issue. The statement "natura Serviano" doesn't come from Gjon Muzaka, but from Spandounes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Spandounes/Spandugino wrote "natione Serviano". ShockedSkater (talk) 11:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Kosovo as an example is a Slavic name, all cities and landscapes, rivers and mountains in Kosovo have Slavic names - the Albanians have simply adopted these Slavic names and pronounce them Albanian. They don't even have their own names in Kosovo, let alone history and culture - yet they aggressively deny anything Slavic and Serbian in Kosovo today and claim that they have always been in Kosovo and have always been the majority of the population there - and don't even have their own names for the country. But Washington has decided on the project of an Albanian nation in Kosovo, which is why the memory of everything non-Albanian in Kosovo must be erased. It's easy to deal with foreign countries and cultures, it is not the own home.

The same applies to the Albanian national hero Skenderbeg, who was more Serb than Albanian by descent. His mother Voisava Kastrioti was Serbian, or at least Slavic (Bulgarian or Macedonian Slavic), and on his father's side the Serbian/Slavic proportion was also high. His father Gjon Kastrioti and his brother Reposh (sr. Repoš) were buried in the Serbian Orthodox monastery of Hilandar on the monastic republic of Athos. The most important monasteries there are and were Greek or Byzantine, but he wanted the Serbian monastery. Apparently his father Gjon identified himself with Serbs, and his mother was Serb/Slavic anyway. Their children, Skanderbeg's siblings, all have Serbian names. And all their children were given Serbian names, Skenderbeg alone was called Gjergj in Albanian. It's strange, not..? Or was Skednerbeg actually given the Serbian name Đurđ (dʑurdʑ) or Đurađ (dʑuradʑ), which became the Albanian Gjergj?

Why is this such a nuisance for the Albanians, why can't they stand it and consider it the greatest national insult when Skenderbeg's Serbian or Slavic ancestry is mentioned in even the slightest way? Isn't that very racist? If we change Serb to Jew, what would we say? But they are Albanians, they are tolerated because the Albanian Kosovo project is to be realized.Carski (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

His earliest recorded ancestor was Kostandin Kastriot Mazreku, given by Muzaka. PLEASE tell me what in the world Mazrek could mean in Serbian. They were buried in a Serbian Orthodox church, because an Albanian autocephalous church did not exist at the time. They had Serb names because obviously, the Serbian church baptized them. Why is the tower in which Gjon Kastrioti buried called "Arbanski Pirg"? Or will you leave such details and logic out, because you want to seem like you have a hidden history, buried under Albanian "propaganda". It's all just very humorous, considering the fact that your ethnicity would never even dare claim Skanderbeg up until a few years ago, because he was the hero of your worst enemy. It's all laughable. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 00:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

His father was originally Catholic as well. Go figure. For sure an Orthodox Serb, very proud of his ethnicity and nationality. The most powerful rulers around him were Serb lords. Obviously he would switch faiths for an alliance. You make it seem as if he was a nationalist, identifying with Serbia when his son campaigned into Serbia and feuded with the Brankovic ruler, who according to you all is from the same family as his mother. So according to your logic, a Catholic father, located in Albania, who gathered a mostly ethnic Albanian army and alliance around him, goes and invades his "Serb" mother's supposed relative, and is still a Serb. At this point it's become a literal joke. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 00:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The Albanians do not consider it a national insult because first of all the argument presented is ridiculous and laughable. In addition, the Albanian people are the most hospitable, generous, tolerant, and peace loving people in the entire Europe. Serbia sees that as a weakness and always attacks Albanians. Those are the reasons. [10] [11] 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:D125:2D1:9542:CB94 (talk) 01:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not the place to share Serb grievances. The article is about the Albanian hero Skanderbeg not about Serb grievances regarding what happened in Dardania 250 years ago, and please cite sources. Not a single source is cited. The names and people in Dardania 250 years ago might have been Slavonic, but today the people and the names in Dardania are 92.9% Albanians and deserve to live in peace and have their rights respected similar to every other European people. [12] Speaking of Washington, the Serb police and military during the Dardania war of 1999 was among the most brutal in the entire history of mankind. [13] In addition, Albanians have always wanted to live in peace and have accepted hundreds and thousands of concessions to make peace, but Serbs have never respected the deals because Serbs are not interested in peace but in wars. [14] 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:6493:D35:2CE8:6F77 (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Eastern Catholic?

In the article's infobox for Skenderbeg, it says that he was Eastern Catholic. No mention of Eastern Catholicism is made at all in the rest of the article.

The article is included in categories such as Albanian Roman Catholics, and Converts to Roman Catholicism from Sunni Islam. In the FAQ section of this talk page, it's explicitly stated that he was a Roman Catholic for the later period of his life. 212.104.118.184 (talk) 14:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, seems to be a case of WP:OR. Durraz0 (talk) 00:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Is There Evidence that Skanderbeg's Correspondences Were in Greek?

There is evidence that Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albania, sent and received his correspondences in Greek. Skanderbeg wrote letters to the Sultan and rulers of the West in Greek. [15] 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:6493:D35:2CE8:6F77 (talk) 23:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is no evidence on Voisava Kastrioti being a part of the Branković family, why is it still written on this article?

Is it okay if I remove it? Triballiii (talk) 21:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)