Talk:Solar Roadways/Archive 5

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• http://principia-scientific.org/americas-first-solar-roadway-total-disaster/ • Sbmeirow • Talk • 04:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Good find. If its true it should be there. Search shows no one else has used this as a reference before. Is it a reliable source? Why does Google News search don't show more coverage of this? It seems like major newspapers would report it. Dream Focus 04:48, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

The site does not appear to me be a reliable source in general. And the article in question is a direct copy from the Daily Caller article discussed above. The prose is quite definitely purple. We need references for the facts, without the obviously-biased judgments. Jeh (talk) 22:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah it's alt-right angst fueled by hydrocarbon money and PR. They are having a field day with this little mom and pop shop using 1980s technology and Home Depot kit. Meanwhile the real solar roadways built in France (and soon the US) are doing well. They have over 200 projects in development around the world. -- GreenC 22:14, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I seem to remember that Wikipedia has inappropriate language guidelines? • Sbmeirow • Talk • 23:15, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Stricken. Satisfied or would you prefer a complete censor? -- GreenC 23:36, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

criticism censoship

this morning I expanded the "criticism" section. I stated facts and put in references and links. This afternoon it was all gone. Only vanilla criticism remains. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cldig (talk • contribs) 13:54, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Because the material you're trying to add is referenced only to YouTube videos that are self-published sources. Just as anybody can create a web page, anybody can make a YT video claiming anything they want to. I personally agree with both David Jones' and Phil Mason's criticisms, but I'm not what WP would consider a reliable source either. The remaining material is referenced to publications that are known to exercise knowledgeable editorial oversight over what they publish.

Note that not every YT video is considered a WP:SPS. If National Geographic or Scientific American had a YT channel (they may well have; I haven't checked) we would presume that its content was subject to the same oversight as the respective magazines.

This is not "censorship", this is WP enforcing its own editorial standards. Please see WP:SPS, WP:RS, and WP:V. Such material simply will not stand in this article (no matter how much you or I agree with it). Thank you for your understanding. Jeh (talk) 20:55, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

p.s.: Regarding "vanilla" criticism - both David Jones (eevblog) and Phil Mason (Thunderfoot) do have very distinctive styles. It's part of the reason they have so many more views and likes than, say, I would if I were presenting the same facts. But for something that is trying to be taken seriously - as an encyclopedia - their distinctive styles reduce their usefulness as sources, as it is difficult to separate the hyperbole and the theatrics from the facts. It isn't the place of an encyclopedia to be boisterous or entertaining - just reliable. Jeh (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

'Total disaster', March 9 17

Have people here seen this coverage? http://principia-scientific.org/americas-first-solar-roadway-total-disaster/ --Nigelj (talk) 06:58, 14 March 2017 (UTC) Nigelj (talk) 06:58, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Here on the talk page, look up two sections. And then to the section before that. Jeh (talk) 07:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Continual Criticism Censorship and Repeated Falsehoods Without Reliable Sources

It has been the case with this page since it began, and continues to be, that the majority of the page is purely information put out by the Solar Roadways, and almost all reliable source that criticize it are suppressed, resulting in this page being plainly incorrect. A particularly egregious one being the current removal of the fact of how much energy is being generated by these panels, being replaced with the lie that they are not yet generating power. The reason being, that the source is a competing business with Solar Roadways. This is not true. Enphase help fund solar roadways (and even if it was true, why is it reliable to have almost all of the article being based purely on what the owners themselves say, but not what competitors say? This is very clearly the opposite of reliable... But not relevant anyway, as Enphase help fund solar roadways!)

It is plainly a lie to change the fact of the actual figures the Solar Roadway project produces to the untrue claim that they are not generating power.

With how long this continual censorship and lying has occurred, I can only imagine that the people doing so are vested in Solar Roadways.

81.109.3.70 (talk) 18:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

In addition, to the claim that Phil Mason is not a reliable source, this could be debated to be true... But I do not see how it is relevant with the claim that is made. Other than the two claims " Panels runs at ~50C in late evening! LED are all but invisible from ~30m/ 30 yrds", all of the claims made by Phil Mason can be seen clearly just with the webcam that Solar Roadways provide. If Phil Mason's name was removed and these claims were made purely with the reference to Solar Roadways own webcam would this be acceptable? I can see the "Wikipedia does not publish its own editors' conclusions" coming already, but this is clearly ridiculous. To the extent these censors are proclaiming this, anything other than exact copying of word for word verbatim is "its own editors' conclusions"! It is clear to see without anything other than looking at it, no actual thinking or working out, from Solar Roadways own webcam that 10% of panels have failed. If this counts as "its own editors' conclusions" then I cannot see how anything other than verbatim copying does not.

81.109.3.70 (talk) 18:34, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Yet another IP address with no edits other than this article, trying to argue the same thing as the banned editor Okip, and adding in the Phil Mason nonsense yet again. Check the archives, all registered users who aren't banned seem to agree it shouldn't be in there. Dream Focus 19:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Phil Mason is doing quite well, financially, with his long running series criticizing SR. Every new video gets a qazillion YouTube clicks. It's self-published with no editorial oversight. The other problem is WP:WEIGHT the article quickly becomes one long criticism of a demonstration beta project. -- GreenC 19:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I did not add the Phil Mason part (though, as I have asked above, would the exact same claims just referring to the webcam be allowed? All the claims other than the temperature and LED visiblity at 30 yards are immediately obvious just from looking at the webcam. If this is not allowed... Why? It's not editors' own conclusions. It is immediately obvious visually. If this is editors' own contribution and can't be added then you should go to the Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima page and get rid of it claiming to be the US flag. This is the editors' own contribution from looking at the photo, not actually mentioned in the text it cites.), I added the part citing Enphase and then reverted your incorrect edit removing it, explaining why you were incorrect in doing so. Rather than just reverting back with no valid explanation ( "to last by Dream Focus - these sources are not reliable enough for wp" the reason you gave that they are not reliable enough for wp is incorrect as I explained. Enphase help fund Solar Roadways.) you should give a valid reason that this is not reliable.

Rather than repeatedly reverting valid criticism, and ignore people showing that your claims of reliability are incorrect, please address them.

81.109.3.70 (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Just to be clear - I typed the words ""Wikipedia does not publish its own editors' conclusions" in the preceding section, which IP .70 derides. I wish to stress that I am far from a proponent or defender of SolarRoadways. I think the technical/financial analyses done by Phil Mason, and by Dave Jones (eevblog), are spot on. I'd actually done my own analysis using my own research (and a few guesses) before I saw those and interestingly my numbers came out within 30% or so of theirs. My conclusion? I find the entire concept to be both technically and economically ludicrous.

However I am a defender of Wikipedia's principles, and the principle of "no original research" / "no original synthesis" is one of the most important.

No, I don't believe we can look at a video or live webcam feed and write about what we see. I think it counts as original research. If you disagree, this is not the place to argue about it - you can ask for an opinion at the no original research noticeboard. For questions about reliable sources in general, try the Reliable sources Noticeboard. Jeh (talk) 22:24, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

If you're getting to the point that you cannot mention something that is immediately visually clear, with no thinking or reasoning at all, without counting it as original research, then everything other than exact copying is original research.

Would an image from the webcam that clearly shows 10% of them being failed be acceptable? (so long as it isn't mentioned in any way in the body of text, wouldn't want any original research of describing a picture exactly as it is...) 81.109.3.70 (talk) 22:30, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

An image from a webcam merely shows the status at that moment. Let's say it shows that 40% of the panels are not lit up. Ok, but how long did that condition last? If it was a failure that was fixed, how long did the failure last? etc., etc. An image without context can be very misleading. Jeh (talk) 19:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• The information I removed read: Of the tiles that have not yet failed in Sandpoint each generate 0.15 cents worth of electricity per day in summer, or 30 cents over the average lifetime of these panels, the panels themselves costing approximately $17000 each to install and referenced https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview which just list the "kilowatt-hours produced" throughout the day, but doesn't confirm the other information listed. Dream Focus 22:37, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

So, you replaced a reliable source that mentions exactly how much power they produce with the claim "The 30 tiles in Sandpoint aren’t yet generating power." and then after being shown that you were mistaken in doing so, you did so again? I can understand editing it into different words. However you have just blatantly replaced a true claim with a reliable source with a lie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.3.70 (talk) 22:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

How is that a reliable source? Where are they getting their information from? I see on their website [1] they encouraged people to donate to Solar Roadways, and mentioned their first ones were using their Enphase M215 Microinverters. I don't see any source on their website or elsewhere for the information that I reverted. Dream Focus 23:03, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

How is a huge world market leader in small scale energy monitoring a reliable source for small scale energy monitoring?

And not that it matters at all (but for some reason you think it does) they are publicly supportive of solar roadways, and do not make solar panels themselves.

188.29.165.197 (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

As I just stated, they do in fact make solar panels themselves. Dream Focus 23:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You did not state that, no. And they do not, no. A M215 microinverter is not a solar panel. It is used WITH solar panels. Enphase do not make solar panels, they use solar panels other companies make, connected with their own devices. They are publicly supportive of solar roadways, for a very obvious reason. Solar roadways being big would be a huge boon for them as there would be many solar panels that would have use for their product.

But again, this clearly does not matter. A world leader in small scale energy monitoring is clearly a reliable source for small scale energy monitoring. Even if they were competitors with solar roadways, but that isn't even the case! They are publicly supportive of them, and have a huge amount to gain if solar roadways succeeds.

I could see your point if Enphase's monitoring showed Solar Roadways were great that they wouldn't be a reliable source as they have a vested interest in this(I would still strongly disagree, it is incredibly clear that a reputable world leader in small scale energy monitoring is a good source for small scale energy monitoring). But they don't! Enphase's results show exactly the opposite of what Enphase wants.

It is incredibly clear that a reputable world leader in small scale energy monitoring is a reliable source for small scale energy monitoring . To claim otherwise is clearly disingenuous. (especially when their results are the opposite of what they both publicly claim to want, and what is obviously beneficial to their business)

81.109.3.70 (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It's misleading and appears somewhat in bad faith to take an R&D demo project and highlight cost issues. Unless the company made claims about costs for this project that are not being met. Criticizing for something they never aimed to achieve in the first place is plainly biased. -- GreenC 23:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Which again, I would understand the statement being edited. However completely removing a true claim on the amount of power being generated with a reliable reputable source and replacing it with the claim they don't yet generate power is just replacing a fact with a lie.

Removing facts and replacing them with lies because the facts show it in a bad light is plainly biased. Change the wording, sure. But replace a well source fact with a lie? No.

188.29.165.197 (talk) 00:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

What is their source for the information? Also all that was listed on what was linked to was how much power was being made at that time. Your personal calculations and assumptions are not facts. Shouldn't one of the government agencies funding it have published the information somewhere? Dream Focus 00:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Why do you think that is relevant? Again, and this could not be more clear, a reputable world leader in small scale energy monitoring is a reliable source for small scale energy monitoring. Your judgment of their source for the information is irrelevant, (and also clearly editors' own research).

They are a world leader in the topic, this makes them a reliable source for it. Your personal judgments of their methods (of which you seem to have none anyway, you are just arguing purely because you want this biased wreck to stay as it is, regardless of reliable sources) does not.

A recognized world leader in a field is a reliable source for that field. This is clear. There is nothing more to say on the matter. If you wish to dispute them, then do it on Enphase's wikipedia page.

81.109.3.70 (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

They are one of many companies that produce a component used in solar cells. That doesn't make them a reliable source by Wikipedia standards. WP:RS is quite clear. They are not an independent source if they are supplying parts to them anyway, and they did state their encouragement for people to invest in them. Microsoft is a successful software company, but that doesn't mean you can use them as a reliable source when it comes to reviewing other software, be a good or bad review. The same is true for any industry. Find a reliable source or its not going in there. Dream Focus 00:20, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Continual moving the goalposts. First they aren't reliable because they're competitors, when shown that isn't true you back down to it only states the energy consumption, when pointed out you're still contradicting them on that you move to they produce solar panels, when shown that that isn't true you change to we need them to provide their methods, and now they aren't a reliable source because they encourage people to invest in them??? The exact opposite of the initial reason you claimed they weren't a reliable source!

This ridiculous bias of yours could not be more clear. Your reason that they aren't a reliable source you're giving now is literally the opposite of what you initially claimed as the reason they aren't reliable.

But fine.. Let's say they aren't reliable because they have a vested interest in Solar Roadways power generation being great (...Despite the fact the claim they've made is that Solar Roadway's power generation isn't great). Do you agree that Solar Roadways has a vested interest in Solar Roadways? Because the source that you're replacing this from, for being too invested in Solar Roadways, is just a different source quoting the founder of Solar Roadways!

How is the source of an independent company being replaced by just quotes from the founder of Solar Roadways because the independent company is too invested in Solar Roadways?

"This source isn't independent of Solar Roadways enough. Better to replace it with a source with all it's information just being quotes from the founder of Solar Roadways. That's much more independent."

81.109.3.70 (talk) 00:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I undid the change, I didn't add anything. The information is sourced to a reliable source though. Feel free to post at the reliable sources noticeboard if you want to discuss things there. Dream Focus 02:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Website no longer working

http://www.solarroadways.com/ gives "Generic page for www.solarroadways.com [You should not be getting this page]". Anyone know what's up? - David Gerard (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Works for me. -- GreenC 19:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Doesn't work for me . I see Generic page, including [Querying whois.verisign-grs.com][whois.verisign-grs.com]No match for domain "WWW.SOLARROADWAYS.COM" GreenC, empty your cache, and see. GangofOne (talk) 03:52, 2 November 2017 (UTC) Indiegogo, only "$2,283,438 USD total funds raised" maybe they ran out and couldn't afford $10 domain-name registration. Please help. (Fraud alert , I see there is a GOFUNDME of the same name, with same video, but unknown person in Europe. Beware of what you fund.) GangofOne (talk) 04:06, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Still works. Tried in 3 browsers (Firefox, Opera and Brave), the last two have no history of visiting the site and the Firefox cleared cache. Based on your error it looks like a DNS propagation problem with the domain, apparently my caching DNS server can resolve it but others not. Possibly they updated the IP of the website and the DNS caches haven't updated yet because the record has a long time to live setting. I'd say give it another 48-72hrs. The DNS registration was last updated November 2 so they are definitely doing something recently, but it certainly works. Give your caching DNS server time to catch up. -- GreenC 04:17, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Does this work? http://solartrollslayer.azurewebsites.net (it's one of the aliases for the website in the DNS record. Based on the name looks like they are building a new system to deal with "trolls"). --GreenC 04:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Ok I see that site. I'm so relieved. GangofOne (talk) 05:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

yeah, main site working for me too now - David Gerard (talk) 14:56, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow

Per this diff it is a global warming denier "think tank" funded in part by fossil fuel interests. They regularly produce propaganda that attacks renewable energy and promotes expanded use of fossil fuels. Their criticism of this company or anything else related to renewable energy is not reliable for Wikipedia per WP:FRINGE. -- GreenC 19:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

That's your diff where you say they are which doesn't prove anything, but I looked into them and it does appear they are 'climate skeptics' and favor emission deregulation. At first glance I thought they were pro-green energy like Greentech. So I will not contest the removal. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Solar Roadways' unverifiable claim of testing.

I have removed this claim SolarRoadways tested its SR2 panels using industry regulation testing equipment and found the texture was sufficient to stop a vehicle going 80mph (129kph) on a wet surface within regulation distances. It is a ludicrous claim since they don't have enough roadway to do such a high-speed test and sure enough, the DOT agrees. DOT engineer Eric Weaver told Greentech Media that no such test was conducted:

"We can’t say that it would be safe for roadway vehicular traffic," said Weaver. "Further field-traffic evaluation is needed to determine safety and durability performance."

Solar Roadways says it has tested its wet textured glass surface at a university lab and has shown that it can stop a vehicle going 80 miles per hour within the required distance. However, getting approval from a university lab is much different from getting it from federal highway authorities.

Durability is also not fully proven, said Weaver. The DOT uses a weight deflectometer to test impact loads up to 16,000 pounds. But the department was not able to get its equipment up to Solar Roadways' testing headquarters (i.e., Scott and Julie's home) in northern Idaho. So they instead used a 3-D modeling analysis.

Source: "Would Solar Roadways Work? A Government Engineer Discusses the Controversial Technology"

I hope no further discussion of the matter is needed. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 18:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

That source is dated 2014. The SR document[2] says they used the "SR2" version of Solar Roadways and they used a "British Pendulum Skid Resistance Tester" which can be used in the lab or field, there is no mention of "3D model analysis" nor a field test, neither of which our article claimed. SolarRoadways never said they had DOT testing, and our article never claimed there was a DOT test. I'm OK with changing the wording to be more clear but we need to report what Soalar Roadways has done and the results. -- GreenC 19:48, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it was 2014 and as you can see Solar Roadways was already making the 80mph in 2014. This is because the SR2 prototype came out in 2011 per Solar Roadways themselves. Also, have you googled a "British Pendulum Skid Resistance Tester"? It is used to test how slippery a floor is. Photos of the instrument should also reveal to even laypeople, it is woefully inadequate to simulate an automobile stopping from 80mph. The way the claim was worded was it was in accordance with "industry regulation" which it is clearly not, since the DOT is the regulator for roads in America (as well as various state-level DOTs). At best, this is misleading; at worst, this is an outright lie. And I know we don't do original research and this doesn't count as evidence, but I assume you have seen photos of the SR2 prototype. The surface is smooth as glass and we are to believe a car can stop on that when it is wet? Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 21:03, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

The solar roadway in France is operational and presumably the EU has as good or better regulations vs the USA so presumably there are ways to engineer a grippy surface using materials science, micro-grooves, mixed materials, etc. I don't know what Solar Roadways is doing in this area or how it might show up in that picture. -- GreenC 22:15, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's an entirely different company, Colas Group and their Wattway project. They are doing something quite different, especially by not trying to put LEDs or heating elements in their product. They are a company who know how to make roads and not a well-meaning (but ultimately delusional) couple from Idaho (not a diss towards Idaho, I love your potatoes). P.S. Roads are better in many parts of Europe. It angers me quite a bit how often my city has to repave around where I live. --SVTCobra (talk) 22:34, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Furthermore, I hope you know the Wattway which is 1km opened in 2016 is so far proving disappointing. These sources English and French are from 2018, but they both show the energy captured is only roughly half of what was hoped. I include Treehugger here because they have good photos of the French solar road (I don't know if they are a sarcastically named site with so-called 'dark money'). Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 23:01, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Dark money. Treehugger couldn't qualify, it is owned by a for-profit organization. New technology takes a while to develop and the next road will incorporate lessons from the previous. The reason solar roadways are so enticing is because municipalities already collect (very large amounts of) money to build and maintain roads, if they can dual-use roads with energy generation even if it's not as good as rooftop it is still potentially valuable. Valuable as both a source of energy and the road, but also the ability to raise new monies (taxes) to build them. It still might be the worst of all worlds (bad road and bad solar), or not, we'll see. But they will try very hard and for a long time to make it work. -- GreenC 23:46, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

OK, well that remains to be seen, but at this point Solar Roadways (the company in this article) is just a folly and I think the Brusaws know it. The main page of the site has 3 things. 1. "Phase IIB" which was awarded in 2011. 2. An encouragement to watch "Solar Freaking Roadways" because it has 21 million views. 3. "Introducing our new mascot: Swoop!" ... If you want my personal opinion, your time would be better spent creating Wattway than defending this abomination of a good idea. The French solar road is by all accounts better, has a better chance of success, is further along in development ... yet, there's no Wikipedia article. Why? And also, in my research for this unwanted debated, I came across mentions of Chinese projects. It's time to give up on the Brusaws. They are likeable, perhaps relatable, but they don't know what the fuck they are doing. I won't call them scam artists because I believe they spend every dollar they raise toward the project. They talked out of their ass when money got short but were ultimately the victims of "Solar Freaking Roadways" going viral. Did they make that? I don't even know. Anyway, it is beyond time to sugarcoat them because in 10 plus years they only managed to create Christmas lights which need to be plugged in to make sure they don't go out (because it's winter y'all, ain't so much solar power). It's a farce at this point. And I hate it when I see good people like you, staking their credibility on something like this. Why are you fighting? The Brusaws have missed all their deadlines for moving on with government (Federal) money. Colorado is working with someone else, right? Georgia has other plans, too, I think. The idea is good. It may or may not be viable, but they have lost the track. They are actively misleading people with images like this when all they have done is create this festive scene.

Stop obfuscating the truth. Even if CFACT is a climate denier and 'dark money' and everything else. It was correct. This Solar Roadways project is a total disaster and abject failure. (NB: This last several paragraphs are my personal opinions and not things I'd insert into articles.) Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 00:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC)