Talk:Sonja Yelich

Croatian instead of Serbian

Per my edit summary, here are the sources I found that identify Yelich as Croatian -

• Evening Standard - "Her mother Sonja, who is of Croatian descent..."
• Vogue - "...Sonja Yelich, a poet and the daughter of Croatian immigrants..."
• extra.ie - "Ella’s mother is award-winning New Zealand poet Sonja Yelich and her father, Vic O’Connor, is an engineer. Her mother is of Croatian descent, while her father’s family were Irish immigrants."

--LivelyRatification (talk) 20:05, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Her grandfather is from middle of Serbia - family name Jelic - she cannot be of Croatian descent. Her grandmother is of German (Jewish) descent, so again not Croat Pixius talk 09:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@Pixius: Even assuming this is true, that doesn't mean she can't be Croatian by ethnicity, unless both her paternal and maternal grandparents are 100% non-Croat. The reliable sources we have suggest that her ethnicity is Croatian, and neither Jelić nor Yelich are exclusively Serbian names. At the very least, it can be recognised that there is dispute among reliable sources as to whether she is Serbian or Croatian. Even assuming the most generous position in regards to your argument, I cannot see a reason to completely replace the words "Croatian" with "Serbian" on her page. --LivelyRatification (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@LivelyRatification: Oook, so you do not understand what ethnicity, nationality and citizenship is. Reliable source is an immigration list and birth certificates, which none of these are from Croatia. The "reliable" sources you have provided there are tabloids, and yellow tabloids without any fact checking. If your mother gave a birth in a potato field, are you a potato? Of course not. You an ethnicity of your mother and father. None of here descendants are Croatian Pixius talk 11:14, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

There is NO ethnicity parameter in the infobox (it was deprecated years ago). Any discussion of ethnicity would have to go in the article. It already states the region her family was from - that is probably sufficient. MB 14:57, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

My apologies, I should have provided sources from pinnacles of reason like SrpskaInfo and FameChain, instead of silly tabloids. Y'know, it's not like Vogue has community consensus as being "generally reliable", or that the Evening Standard is generally considered by Wikipedians to be more reliable than other tabloids, even considering that there is no consensus on its reliability? And I do not see the error in my statement. Just because two of somebody's grandparents aren't Croatian, that doesn't mean the other two can't be.

Her other two grandparents are not Croatian as well. they are of Yewish/German origin Pixius talk 10:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

If we're going to assume that (and honestly, I might consider that original research) then I think it's much safer to assume that, given she has been described by, again, numerous reliable sources (the last of which quotes her own daughter calling her Croatian) as Croatian, that she is of at least some Croatian background. --LivelyRatification (talk) 20:14, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

"You might consider as original research" - So if no one mentions publicly available birth certificate, you are not allowed to use it? Honey, you do not have slightest idea what original research is. And come on Sunday in front of Canberra's city hall, i have some citizenships and passports for you, from Indonesia, Kenya, Peru, Andora - you will be their citizen and also, your heritage will switch from "Oustral'ya" to Peruvian, Andorran, Kenyan in a blink of an eye Pixius talk 10:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

And while this might be creeping into original research on my part, I feel the need to also point out that the article's subject herself via her Twitter account has said that she will be getting Croatian citizenship, that she holds a Croatian passport, and that she is "proud to be Croatian". (And yes, despite not being verified, this is her Twitter account, per many multiple reliable sources.) What do you think is more likely? Is Sonja Yelich, her daughter, and all the sources I've cited are simply lying or misinformed, and that, per SrpskaInfo and FameChain, because two of her grandparents weren't Croatian, all references to any possible Croatian background must be scrubbed from her page? Or is she perhaps, just maybe, a little bit Croatian? --LivelyRatification (talk) 20:26, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

By your reasoning you can be a little bit regnant - not pregnant, but also not not pregnant. And in reality, you are perhaps, just maybe, also a little bit an potato from Idaho. Her first half is of Serbian origin, second half is of Jewish/German origin. "Or is she perhaps, just maybe, a little bit Croatian?" - do not ask for mercy for the load of stupidity you have wrote there. And don't even start explaining what original research is.
And yes, genealogy websites are more reliable sources as they base their data sets from actual, factual primary sources. Cain of birth certificates are the most reliable source. SrpskaInfo, as well as localised paper has better reasoning and overview, than some reporter "half-away on the globe" writing personal impressions gathered from other, equally, unreliable yellow tabloid sources. And again, you can apply for any passport you want, you cannot be something that you are not Ms Elizabeth Warren the native/Indian heritage or should I call you potato Pixius talk 10:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@LivelyRatification If you were borne in the potato field are you potato?

Jelić family is from the middle of Serbia, 200km away from the nearest Croatian border. Her mother is from the old Herzegovina, today Montenegro and Republika Srpska, again from Serbian part Pixius talk 22:53, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

No, neither geneology websites nor birth certificates typically meet WP:RS requirements, especially for BLP topics. Consider this your final warning for violations of our WP:CIVIL policy in the tone and wording of your comments. You'll lose any hope of getting your ideas considered if you cannot write directly and dispassionately, or if you get blocked altogether. DMacks (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@DMacks Again, genaology web site which uses primary sources, provide an actual evidence and these evidences are from state/country maintained database and/or archive is WP:RS

On second thought are you following me, stalking me around the Wikipedia and issue warnings? Are you harassing me? Was this a treat: "You'll lose any hope of getting your ideas considered if you cannot write directly and dispassionately, or if you get blocked altogether."? Is your behavior also a part of WP:Civil? I don't think so Pixius talk 21:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIMARY is clear that birth certificates are not usable; Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons likewise disallows genealogy websites in general (multiple talk-page discussions there reinforce it). I have no feeling towards or against you, but as admin I get called on keep discussions on-track. I nearly blocked you already for your most recent comment on the Ukranian-dancers talkpage, so as admin I wanted to look for a pattern of behavior to see what admin action to take. I chose the most restrained option. "If you don't follow the rules, you will be blocked" is a standard and neutrally-worded administrative warning. DMacks (talk) 00:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Aaahhh nice, we have the wrong template on the page Pixius talk 15:06, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

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