Talk:Sorbet

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Popular culture

Does the section Sorbet in Popular Culture add anything? Bigturtle 20:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

• I’m rather saddened that you have removed my section about “Sorbets in Popular Culture”. I thought that it was an interesting juxtaposition between low culture and gourmet food. It also provides an insight into how food stuffs that were once the preserve of the rich became incorporated into the popular diet. I will await further comments before re-posting the section. Regained 13:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Italian

I am living in Italy (I am from it.wiki, as you can see from my italian user page) and honestly I don't agree with the sentence: Italians often refer to Sherbet as gelato, and the two terms are often used interchangeably in the United States. I think the part concerning Italians should be removed as it's not true. Daphoenyx 01:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Also this description contradicts the page on gelato. 69.109.165.100 05:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I live in the states, and I've never heard Sorbet used to mean Gelato. Gelato in my area is used to refer to the expensive imported Italian ice creams that are generally very delicious. As I recall, Sorbet/Sherbet (interesting point: in the US we often mispronounce it as Sherbert) is made of fruit juices unlike ice cream. 70.137.149.233 00:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Sherbet/sorbet articles merged

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Article "Sorbet" merged into article "Sherbet (U.S.)". Now article "Sorbet" redirects to article "Sherbet (U.S.)"; other language links added.87.168.74.187 20:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

That was a mistake IMO - it would have been better to use Sorbet. It's an unambiguous term which avoids confusion with Sherbet - and is the only name used in the UK at least, since in the UK Sherbet = Sherbet, and never the frozen dessert. Conversely it seems that Sorbet is at least understood in the US, even if Sherbet (U.S.) is used more commonly there. FlagSteward 17:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Sherbet (U.S.) → Sorbet — Unregistered user merged Sherbet (U.S.) and Sorbet into Sherbet (U.S.) - this is a global product, the name Sorbet is used globally, and avoids confusion with the fizzy powder —FlagSteward 17:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose Sorbet and sherbet are not fully synonymous in American English, and sherbet is the common name. Already disambiguated, and, given the (apparently complete) national differentiation, it should stay dabbed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. And reverse merge too. Agree with Septentrionalis. Legal definitions don't define real language. Rmhermen 18:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - for the removal of the brackets Reginmund 19:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - While WP:ENGVAR calls for status quo, in this case I'd urge American wikipedians for a "concession" (I'm lazy to look which page is older). The chosen disambiguator is plain ugly, and creates a false impression that it's a uniquely American product, while it's not. I don't know which page came first, but moving it to more international name would greatly help to reduce confusion. Duja► 14:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I know what sorbet is, and I know what sherbet is (and what sherbert is), and hated both words as a kid, because I saw both equally in the freezer aisle of the grocery store, and thought they were two completely different things for the longest time. The current title (Sherbet (U.S.)) confused me too -- foods have country qualifiers? This title makes it seem like Sherbet should be a location, or person, or something, anything but food. I'd say move the dessert to Sorbet, make sure there's a hatnote at Sherbet to direct (possibly) confused Americans to the right page, and it should fix both problems. -Bbik^★ 16:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support My Oxford Concise says that that sorbet is "flavoured water-ice", while it calls sherbet an an "Eastern cooling drink of diluted fruit juices", and says they are synonyms. FWIW, I've heard and read about "sorbet" much more often than "sherbet", and google seems to concur, 4.15M hits vs 1.74M. --Victor falk 20:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support In North America sherbet is just a sorbet made with milk, it's a special instance of a sorbet.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Having entered the un-lazy mode, article Sorbet dates from November 2003, while this one was created as a split from Sherbet on May 2006. Duja► 15:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sherbet (US) contains milk or milkfat while Sorbet does not

This article and/or the merge are inaccurate, as "Sherbet" in America contains milk or milkfat, while "Sorbet" is a non-dairy product. Yermo (talk) 02:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree if that is correct. To me the article has become confusing (FDA classification is meaningless to the rest of the world) as it would apprear US Sherbet contains dairy where as in the rest of the world Sorbet does not.

In this instance whether the US understanding of Sherbet should have it's own article may be a valid point if there are some core differences between US Sherbet and Sorbet (i.e dairy).

I have some questions for US editors.

1) What do you generally call a frozen dessert made from sweetened water flavored with iced fruit (typically juice or puree), chocolate, wine, and/or liqueur which DOESN'T contain any dairy (milk, milk fat, cream etc etc)?

2) What do you generally call the above when it DOES contain dairy?

For the majority of the world Sorbet does not contain any dairy and it is the absense of dairy which is the definitive difference between Sorbet and Icecream.

I think a headed classification section for the US and a seperate one for the rest of the world would be helpful and clear this up if both are to remain on the same article GQsm ^{Talk | c} 21:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• This article caused a minor stir in my office today, because sorbet and sherbe[r]t are definitely not the same thing. Sherbert, as everyone I've ever heard talking about it calls it, is always dairy, and is generally considered a type of ice cream. I just went and looked at the ingredients on a tub of Edy's Berry Rainbow Sherbet in the freezer, and the first thing in the list is "Skim milk". It's delicious. :-) It is also not sorbet. In response to GQsm's questions:
  1. Generally such things are not eaten, but when they are, they're usually called things like "frozen puréed apricots" or whatever. Some people will call this a sorbet. Others call it a slurpee.
  2. We call this ice cream. The difference between ice cream and sherbert is that the sherbert is "lighter", generally softer it seems, and definitely fruitier.

Reporting live from Eau Claire, this has been Tomer^talk 23:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of debate over whether this is pronounced/spelled "sherbet" or "sherbert". Most Americans are die-hard about it being "sherbert" and will swear up and down that that's the only way they have ever seen it spelled. However, you will not find a SINGLE product in the store labelled that way: it is and always has been "sherbet". The misspelling stems from the fact that there is a NAME "Sherbert" ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0374_0398_ZO.html ) -- and knowing how the mind associates words, if there was a new or imported product called "Alexandia", you could probably count on people calling it "Alexandria" (especially in a time before things like cell phones, internet, TV, etc. connected people, which explains why people say things like "swimming in the crick", or "eating a sammich", or "warsh your clothes". There are/were WHOLE REGIONS where this happens!). The point is that, sure people say "sherbert", and if that is how it is SAID, then fine. But it is correctly spelled "Sherbet", and you will never find a mass released product that says "sherbert" on the label. I have found an article which admits that the spelling is widely accepted enough to make it into various works and even some dictionaries ( http://grammarist.com/spelling/sherbet-sherbert/ ), but it (the "grammarist") directly refers to it as "this misspelling") (it is a commonly accepted misspelling). You will also note that the works that use the misspelling are journals, books, etc. -- media where its proper to use colloquialisms. There is an entry for Sherbert at Dictionary.com, but that website as based on the concept of something being a word because of how it is commonly USED (colloquialisms, regardless of erroneous development) (see http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/t54.html and http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/misc/#error ). Sources like the following do not prove correctness, though they do verify that this mispelling is so viral that people will even swear that "sherbert" is the only way they have ever seen it spelled on products ( http://comeseptember.livejournal.com/152191.html ) -- which is only true in one's head (test it out; and remember that a handwritten labels are written by anybody). As a final source, consider a dictionary from a website devoted to food ( http://www.epicurious.com/tools/fooddictionary/entry/?id=4541 ). I am not saying that it is wrong to say "sherbert" anymore than it is wrong to say "warsh" or "I HAFF to go" or "down the crick"; but those words are most definitely spelled "sherbet", "wash", "have", and "creek". If there is any difference, some are just accents (which are never "wrong"), but words like "sherbert" and "haff" and idioms like "would OF done it" (versus the correct "would HAVE done it") stem from misunderstandings rather than it JUST being how it is said somewhere (e.g. people really think the word IS "sherbert", or they sincerely think the phrase is "would of" because of lazy speech, and they are repeating a learned IDIOM).

Removed promotional link

The external link to Dolcefine, a sorbet wholesaler, is inappropriate here. Maybe if it were in the context of a list of the top five sorbet companies in the US/World, etc, but even then it would still be unencyclopedic. Eeblet (talk) 01:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Future developments

This section looks both in breach of NPOV and WP:CRYSTAL.Autarch (talk) 10:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

'Sherbet' (the unique US dairy product) needs its own page

It's a unique frozen dessert. I'm sorry if you disapprove of its origins, or think it's merely bastardized 'sorbet' (or a bastardized use of the term 'sorbet,' or an incorrect use of the British 'sherbet'). The fact is, 'sherbet' (as the term is used in the US) is a unique frozen dessert (i.e., a "light" form of ice cream with a bit of tartness, a unique texture [likely due to the addition of gelatin, or similar product, mentioned by the Encyclopedia Britannica entry, below] and almost always in fruit flavors - I'm saddened and amazed that the classic/quintessential "orange sherbe(r)t" and even "rainbow sherbe(r)t" aren't mentioned ANYWHERE on Wikipedia, even as brief mentions in any article) that deserves its own page. (As, of course, 'sorbet' and British 'sherbet' do, with cross references to the American sherbet page, as appropriate.) I'm getting the sense these days that to a lot of non-US (and even a lot of US) Wikipedia editors, anything culturally American is so evil and repugnant that its very acknowledgement must be quashed/suppressed.

I agree. Sherbet is not Sorbet. If Sherbet had its own page and was merged into this one, I have to call into question the integrity of the editor who did that, and the administrators who upheld it. -Artificial Silence (talk) 07:25, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

In the US, we also have 'sorbet,' of course (which is a non-dairy product), and, obviously, ice cream (with varying amounts of cream/milkfat).

I STRONGLY suggest that the merge be reversed. What is wrong with plain 'Sherbet' for the British beverage (yes, with Persian origins), and 'Sherbet (US)' for the frozen dessert? Add a disambiguation page if necessary. Our primary goal here is ACCURACY, not giving some British Wikipedia editors some psychopathological feeling of power over 'American cultural imperialism.'

Also, FYI - the online Encyclopedia Britannica has an entry for American sherbet. Here it is:

"Sherbet (frozen dessert): frozen dessert usually flavoured with fruit, made from water, sugar, flavourings, and milk or cream. Egg white or gelatin may be added to ensure a fine texture. Sherbets may also be flavoured with wine or liqueurs. By U.S. federal regulation, sherbets must contain a minimum of 1 percent and a maximum of 2 percent butterfat. Water ice, called in French sorbet and in Italian granita, is similar to sherbet but contains no dairy ingredients."

I'm afraid that the authoritativeness of Wikipedia is being ever more frequently called into question, and this issue is just one of many thousands of recent examples. Seethaki (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree Sherbet is not a type of Sorbet. Sorbet, as the article defines, is made ONLY with sweetened water and fruit while Sherbet has additional ingredients.Sir Robert "Brightgalrs" Schultz de Plainsboro (talk) 03:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above posts and made the differentiation page 'sherbert' quite a bit more explicit. I even added a couple sources to prove we're not crazy for wanting to be able to find information on this popular treat. Many a hot summer day in my youth were made bearable by enjoying some orange or rainbow sherbert (and I've NEVER heard it called 'sherbet', 'sorbet', or 'ice cream'.. not even to this day. People who grew up in America with sherbert know what it is and how to pronounce it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.168.44.192 (talk) 19:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, completely, with all the sentiments expressed here. Sherbet is a unique (and very popular) product in the United States and Canada, and ought to be designated as such. For God's sake, the instances of sherbet lemon in Harry Potter had me convinced Dumbledore was an ice-cream lover, until I saw the hack job that the wiki has apparently done at "disambiguating" these terms. --SchutteGod (talk) 01:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this sentiment as well, it seems to me like the significance and uniqueness of the American sherbe(r)t is not being considered, either because of neglect or maybe someone's snobbery. In any case, it definitely deserves ITS OWN article. -zepimpja — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.106.46.23 (talk) 01:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree as well and would like to see inclusion of material on the production of sherbet; specifically I would like to understand how sherbet (as opposed to sorbet) can blend such acidic fruit extracts with milk without curdling the milk. Does the egg somehow shield the milk or bind with the acid? Ray921 (talk) 04:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

This is one of the most garbled Wikipedia entries ever. It is clearly not possible to merge the pages on 'Sorbet' and 'Sherbet' and one wonders why it was ever attempted. The article could be much clearer if all mention of the mispronunciation 'sherbert' were omitted. And talking of pronunciation, if not mispronunciation: why on Earth is the affected, pseudo-French pronunciation 'sorbay' given rather than the perfectly correct 'sor-bet' as spelled? Queryit (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree, this article is a mess. The American dairy product 'sherbet' has no place here, and neither does the British children's candy 'sherbert'. Whoever merged this stuff together hadn't got a clue. BTW, sorbet is usually pronounced as 'sorbay' in the French manner in British English, which is correct given that it's a French loanword. I've no idea what the Yanks do. --Ef80 (talk) 19:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this request to unmerge these as well. Is anyone going to do anything about it? SuperSlacker (talk) 02:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Wow this article kind of sucks - it really confused me because it conflates two different things. Sorbet and Sherbert are not the same thing. If they are, then I'd like to see a merge on Milk and Water. 184.155.10.215 (talk) 19:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Came here to add another vote for this. Yes, the etymologies are the same but in today's parlance sherbet and sorbet are very distinct things. Sherbet's have dairy (~2% milkfat as opposed to ~10% for ice cream.) while sorbet's are completely dairy free. The FDA has official standards on the milkfat percentages. If sherbet does not get its own page, the FDA definitions of sorbet, sherbet and ice cream should be clearly spelled out in a table. Thanks. DavidRF (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Homemade sherbet does not always include dairy. I think a separate article could be created but it should not be created until someone has sourcing and content to add to it. There are a lot of food articles that are created and then left along for years. These mergers are temporary but do not prejudice recreation of the article. FDA regulations change over time and require too much constant maintenance to check for changes, so rather then a table we should follow what secondary sources say. Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:47, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

There seems to be consensus to unmerge in the above discussion. If there is no current objections I will do the unmerge in a few days. Spudlace (talk) 07:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Just here to add another voice in favor of unmerging these two pages. Sherbet is definitely not the same thing as sorbet in the US, both in terms of regulation and everyday language. An anonymous user also recently removed the link to the section on sherbet in the US in this article from the Sherbet disambiguation article, making this all the more confusing. I certainly wouldn't look at this article to find information on the dessert that is legally distinct from sorbet in the US. CherryT~enwiki (talk) 10:22, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

No actual definition

The first section contains everything but an actual definition of "sorbet." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.242.72.225 (talk) 17:19, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Merge proposal: Rainbow sherbet to Sorbet

The vast majority of the Rainbow sherbet article covers sherbet in general, with only a single paragraph specifically devoted to the rainbow variety.

It might- or might not- be the case that sherbet dessert warrants its own article separate from Sorbet, but rainbow sherbet on its own belongs to that regardless. Ubcule (talk) 16:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. I have added merge templates. Clearly rainbow sherbet is an utterly trivial variant. --Macrakis (talk) 19:54, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose We shouldn't merge unreferenced articles. Haven't found any RS for the content about Emanuel Goren. I would suggest prodding it or turning it over to AfD. I don't think this is notable. Spudlace (talk)

I basically agree. It's pretty easy to find sources for the existence of a three-colored "rainbow sherbet", but it's pretty clearly not notable enough for its own article. It might or might not be notable enough to be mentioned in this article. The Goren story was added by an anon with a handful of edits in 2009, sounds dubious, and never had a source, so I'm removing it. Anyway, one way or another, a stand-alone rainbow sherbet article is unnecessary. --Macrakis (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I disagree on the merge as sorbet and rainbow sherbet are two different things, but also would like to propose something as well. I think that it may be a good idea to simply change the rainbow sherbet article back to a long version covering sherbet in general, but change the title and reword a few parts to make it about sherbet in general. This way the two different desserts are differentiated and cover their own respective topics. JPaul Getty ptoductions (talk) 21:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Huh? The old version has zero sources for either sherbet in general or rainbow sherbet in particular. The external link to "History of Ice Cream" says nothing specific about sherbet. So what exactly is there in the rainbow sherbet article that's worth saving? --Macrakis (talk) 21:51, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

• Merge Rainbow sherbet to Sherbet (frozen dessert). That's the right topic; sorbet is not the same. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 19:32, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Background

Hey Spudlace, thanks for your input. I may have missed some point, but as far as i can see that's what the cited sources say : source number 4 : "Birthplace of ice cream: Persians are believed to have introduced the art of frozen desserts" source number 5 :"A favorite use of this stored ice was in one of the earliest frozen desserts; the forerunner of all ice creams and sorbets" source number 6 seems to deal with sharbat/sherbet, not sorbets and thus, can be removed from this article. Given what i said above, it seems that none of the sources support sharbat as being the precursor of modern sorbet while two sources supoort what i wrote in the article before your last edits, i.e. early frozen desserts originated in Persia and were the precursor of what we know today as ice cream and sorbet. Please let me know if you think i'm mistaken. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:57, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Your changes are not correct. There were other frozen desserts in China that are unrelated to sorbet. You made these changes based on the headline of the article without even reading the source. Don't do that. Source 4 says: "It is believed that Arabs who had conquered Persian Empire at the time took the age-old Persian refreshment called Sharbat and enriched the existing mix of fruit syrup and snow chilled honey with milk and sugar." Why are you removing this when it's directly supported by all reliable sources? Spudlace (talk) 05:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I did read the sources, and i still don't get where it is said that sharbat is the precursor of sorbet. Thus, i suggest we go by what the sources really say. Besides, source 5 says that one of the earliest frozen desserts was created in Persia and that it is the forerunner of all ice creams and sorbets. That seems cristal clear to me.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:28, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Other sources exist that dispute whether sharbat is the forerunner of all frozen desserts. So, it is not only outside the scope of the article but it puts too much weight on one source (Gil Marks) who we use a lot when we lack better sources, but not where it conflicts with better quality sources. Gil Marks never cites his sources so, if anything, we should be reducing the weight on this source. Since there are better sources available, Marks should probably be removed because it is not needed. Spudlace (talk) 10:46, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

That is not the answer to my question, where is it said that sharbat is the precursor of sorbet and ice creams ? it's you who wrote that in the article without any source to back it up. What i suggest to write is what i wrote before your last edits and that is supported by the sources (no problem with changing it into "one of the earliest frozen desserts oringinated in Persia and has been described as the forerunner of ice creams and sorbets"). As to the quality of the sources, if you have better ones, i suggest you bring them here.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

This article doesn't say anything about ice creams. You should be more careful about making false accusations. I'm not going to respond to an editor that does that. I think you may want to edit the frozen dessert article instead. Spudlace (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Spudlace: I'm not editing Frozen desserts, i'm editing this article, but it seems that it's owned by you unfortunately. I don't get well why you behave like that with me, i am trying to improve this article and i engaged with you here in a polite manner while you were aggressive from your first answer. I am not making false accusations, you were the one who said that sharbat is the precursor of modern sorbet, not me and you did not provide any source for that. Now, you reverted me when i asked you to wait for the thread to conclude and you keep editing it as you want, ignoring the fact that another editor has also the right to contribute. Your behavior is not in accordance with WP:BRD and WP:OWN. I have no problem with the removal of "ice cream" (my above proposal was just an example of the kind of sentence that could be included, not a strict wording). I will make a last attempt to find a compromise with you, i suggest to leave the background section in and write "one of the earliest frozen desserts oringinated in Persia and has been described as the forerunner of sorbets", this article contains roughly nothing about Persia while that empire greatly contributed to the creation of sorbets (among others, yakhchals are Persian, Faloodeh too), this is misleading for our readers.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:29, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I need better sourcing for it than Gil Marks. If Gil Marks is the only source we usually attribute. Don't be so defensive. I reverted was about frozen desserts in general. Your response "I'm not editing Frozen desserts, i'm editing this article" was not helpful. Your revised version is better but most sources do not mention Persia as a definite origin, only an etymology. I've checked three or four sources so far and none of them support this change. Ping me again if you find something better that supports the language you want to add. Spudlace (talk) 20:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Spudlace: "Your response "I'm not editing Frozen desserts, i'm editing this article" was not helpful." : Sorry, but it's not your call to decide which article fellow wikipedians edit, please focus on content, not contributors. Just take another look at how you behaved with me in your above comments and in the history of edits of the article, where you ignore my remarks and you will get better why i'm "so defensive". I'm a quite well experienced editor, i have been editing here for about 4 years with 10+K edits, i know Wiki guidelines quite well too, thus i can tell you that your successive edits to this article while another editor is trying to reach a consensus here, on the talk page, were truly uncalled for. Gil Marks is a food writer and historian, he is used as a source in many articles on Wiki, that sounds like a reliable source to me and saying that "one of the earliest frozen desserts oringinated in Persia and has been described as the forerunner of sorbets" with the sources that are, actually, doing so, seems like a good practice to me, as per WP:IC. If you want, we also can can write something like "according to Gil Marks, one of the earliest frozen desserts oringinated in Persia and has been described as the forerunner of sorbets".---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Not unless he says which of the desserts that originated in Persia is the precursor. Gil Marks is generally reliable but not the best source because where it is vague and because he doesn't cite his sources. Please don't ping me about this again. I don't have anything more to add to this but other editors may support your proposal. Spudlace (talk) 21:24, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I restored the quote and its sources since they were part of the long-standing version of the article, the onus is on you to achieve consensus if you want to remove them.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:45, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Note that I restored the long-standing version in its entirety. It's entirely lame to pretend to restore the long-standing version and then not actually do it. Edit warring should stop until consensus is reached. I'm not really happy with the long-standing version either, but we'll let it stand for now until consensus is reached. Spudlace (talk) 21:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

The one who is edit-warring is you, not me, i made a single revert, thus your "warning" on my talk sounds like harassment.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:12, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Italian ice into Sorbet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge Italian ice into Sorbet on the grounds that it has an independently notable history best discussed separately. Klbrain (talk) 14:37, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

---

It is a synonym for sorbet Spudlace (talk) 19:14, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Support : that's a kind of sorbet.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:30, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Not yet -- needs analysis There seems to be a continuum of closely related frozen desserts: sorbet, granita, slushy, snow cone, shaved ice, Italian ice. It's not clear from our current articles what defines each of these things, and whether the names unambiguously define the food. For example, I get pretty much the same results when I Google [granita machine] and [slushy machine]; Slurpee appears to be simply a 7-Eleven brand for the same thing based on carbonated beverages.

In fact, as far as I can tell, there are three kinds of product:

• Semi-liquid products made in a horizontal rotating cylinder and dispensed from a tap. I think of these as granita and slushy.
• Semi-solid products made in a vertical rotating cylinder and served by scooping. I think of these as sorbet.
• Products made by putting crushed or shaved ice into a cup and pouring syrup on top. I think of these as snow cones and shaved ice.

I'm not sure which category "Italian ice" is in, and my guess is that it means different things to different people (perhaps depending on the region). The same may be true of some of the other names. I don't think we should rush into mergers until we have a clearer idea of all this. --Macrakis (talk) 02:38, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I've never had granita dispensed from a machine but that is a discussion for another time. I was able to find several sources specific to the cultural significance and history of Italian ice that would justify a second article. I'm tempted to forego the merger and expand the article. Spudlace (talk) 10:04, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I would recommend forgoing the merger as well. The desserts are different enough for it to be notable; Italian ice also has its own history and significance, as stated by Spudlace above. -- Categorically Not (🗪) 06:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, it does not appear to be a synonym. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why is rainbow sherbet being merged with this page

Shouldn't rainbow sherbet be merged with the sherbet page - 9Bdyea (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Closing, given the objection, but started the obvious alternative proposal! Klbrain (talk) 14:38, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal

For too long, we've been confusing our readers with two articles about the same thing. According to the Oxford English dictionary, sherbet means sorbet : [1]. Thus, i propose to merge Sherbet (frozen dessert) in Sorbet.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comnent: Are you allowed to support your own nomination? —theMainLogan (t•c) 09:58, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think it'd be fine as he cannot single handedly tip consensus in his favour. ✶Mitch199811✶ 22:34, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Support : Per nom.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, I think that sherbet and sorbet are different things. The article itself mentions that sherbet is made from dairy. Also, I don't think that the OED should be the thing that decides the difference. ✶Mitch199811✶ 22:31, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

  The article says that, but this claim is unsourced. Also, i don't get well why OED is not relevant here according to you.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  It is not unsourced because of me and I don't feel like the OED should be the one to define who doesn't get an article because they don't focus on food. ✶Mitch199811✶ 02:37, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  I get you, but i cannot agree with your rationale about OED, which is a dictionary, thus, exactly what we need here. We don't need a cookbook here, but a reliable source about the meanings of the words sorbet and sherbet. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:26, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  The citation I added to the Sherbet article states that while they are similar, sherbet involves dairy while sorbet does not. Britannica also has an article on sherbet and they are generally a lot more restrictive than us. ✶Mitch199811✶ 15:42, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  Britannica is not a reliable source, all we have, is some blogs/self published sources saying that the difference between sherbet and sorbet is dairy products, but OED, which is a reliable source, does not say that.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

  Who says that Britannica is not a reliable source? In fact, this discussion (which is from 2010) really only mentions that Britannica has biases and can be wrong, which is a given. The latest one I could find Britannica being discussed [2] are editors saying that is gets its statistics from other sources, which also makes sense as it is an encyclopedia. ✶Mitch199811✶ 15:26, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

  According to wp:BRITANNICA, the unreliable portion comes from the fact that it is a tertiary source and that it has accepted some online suggestions. I do not think that their article on Sherbet was suggested as it was never edited in the window they were accepting suggestions. Also, it still proves that it exists along with stating the difference between sherbet and sorbet (which it groups with granita), the inclusion of dairy. ✶Mitch199811✶ 17:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

  Tertiary sources are reliable, when they qualify as such. I think you got me wrong, Britannica is not a reliable source : [3] and check section number 21, it has been discussed long time ago. As far as i've seen, the difference between sherbet and sorbet is only supported by some blogs/self published cookbooks, nothing that could challenge a high quality source like OED.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

  From what I can tell, the OED is pretty much the only source that says the two are the same. The only other times that I see sherbet described without dairy is when it isn't being compared at all. Also, when I look up sorbet and sherbet I get different results. I also have two other dictionaries supporting me, Dictionary.com and Marriam-Webster. Marriam-Webster is a bit confusing though as usage 1 (used in 1603, not long after the British landed in NA) only says it is a cold fruit juice. ✶Mitch199811✶ 22:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

  Those dictionaries are all but comparable to Oxford. You can see by yourself the hard time you have trying to find a single high quality source that supports you ... By the way, OED is far from being the only source that says the two sweets are the same, please take a look at linguee where sherbet is translated as sorbet in french and Collins dictionary where it's said that "Sherbet is like ice cream but made with fruit juice, sugar, and water.", i.e. exactly the same definition than sorbet : "Sorbet is a frozen dessert made with fruit juice, sugar, and water.", all these dictionaries are high quality sources.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  I want to know who says that MW is in a lower tier than Oxford. Also, two of your sources, OED and Collins, that support you are based on Great Britain, the other, Linguee is in Cologne. The sources I have used all come from the United States (Britannica is currently in Chicago). I believe the reason for this is because in most of the world, the two words are the same, while in North America they are different. If you can get a pretty decent American source that can back you up, then I'll fold; but right now, you only have shown me couple of dictionaries in Europe. ✶Mitch199811✶ 14:58, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  I must confess that i'm a bit baffled by your above response, firstly, MW does not clearly support you and, to answer to your question about who says that MW is in a lower tier than Oxford, i would say, please check the owner of MW, it's Encyclopedia Britannica ... Secondly, you keep speaking about Britannica while that source is not reliable. Last but not least, why should we use north american dictionaries instead of European ones ? If, as you said, there is only a difference between those two words in north America while in the rest of the world, they are the same, then we should merge the two articles and only mention in the article a part about the (very little) difference between the two words in north America. Anyway, the OED link i posted is in American English, not British English, and it says that sherbet and sorbet are the same : [4] and so do Collins and Wordreference which give the meaning of sherbet (the frozen dessert) in American English : [5],[6].

  Also, in the UK, sherbet is not a frozen dessert, it's sugar powder (see the Collins link, which gives the definition of sherbet in British English and in American English.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  MW straight up mentions dairy or poultry usage in sherbet. And I'm pretty sure the owner of the dictionary does not matter all that much as long as the source itself is reliable. The reason I want North American dictionaries is because it is a North American dessert. Wordreference also says that sherbet and ice cream are the same so I don't trust their comparison to sherbet and sorbet. And I feel like the too similar argument falls through because of Italian Ice and Granita. ✶Mitch199811✶ 18:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ok, fine by me, i think then the merge should be done with sharbat instead of sherbet. Thoughts ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  No, you shouldn't keep proposing merges based on similarities and etymologies. Sharbat is a pretty decently fleshed out article about a beverage, not a dessert item. ✶Mitch199811✶ 21:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Sherbet and sorbet are different deserts. [7], [8], [9], --Jayron32 12:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  As an admin, i think that you certainly noticed that your links are not considered reliable, don't you ? first link is not relevant as it does not say anything interesting about this matter, the two others are blog-like websites, how can you compare these "sources" to OED or Collins or Linguee ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:02, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  I couldn't immediately find anything for or against BR or F&W. The first source (Food Network) is still functioning for me. ✶Mitch199811✶ 17:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Well, all 3 sound like random blog-like websites, that's enough for me to discard them, you can take them at WP:RSN if you want.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  All three have Wikipedia articles; BR is a restaurant and Food Network is a very large broadcaster. F&W is the least notable, but once again, it at least has an article. None of this guarantees reliability (just look at Fox News and CNN) but it does say something without any previously set precedent. ✶Mitch199811✶ 22:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Despite the OED not distinguishing, it is clear that some sources do treat sorbet and sherbet as distinct but related concepts, as in e.g. the sources provided by Mitch and Jayron. I guess one could argue that they are closely enough related that they should be treated in a single article, but it's not clear to me that Sherbet (frozen dessert) is more closely related to sorbet than e.g. granita or Italian ice is, and they get their own articles. (And in the land of dairy-based frozen desserts, we distinguish between ice cream, gelato, semifreddo and frozen yogurt). The fact that sherbet and sorbet are etymologically close to one another is not compelling: Sharbat (beverage) and Sherbet (powder) are equally etymologically similar and yet they are clearly different concepts which deserve separate articles. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 13:46, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  I guess after having sorbet myself (Haagen-Dazs from my local supermarket), it and sherbet are more similar than I thought and less to Italian ice. But, I still think that they are separate enough for their own articles. However, this whole thing might be violating wp:OR to some extent. ✶Mitch199811✶ 16:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Please note that nobody, except you, said that we should merge the two articles on the ground that they are "etymologically close to one another". Also, while the arguments provided by Mitch have, to some extent, convinced me to drop the stick, the ones provided by you two are not at all. Have you checked the so-called "sources" linked by Jayron ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  If you don't like the sources cited by Jayron, Frozen Desserts by Francisco Migoya defines sherbet and says (p.54) explicitly that it is not the same thing as sorbet; Ice Cream by Marshall, Goff, and Hartel has an entire chapter on "Sherbets, Sorbets, and Ices" which distinguishes between sherbet on the one hand, and sorbets/water ices/Italian ices on the other. Though I think you will struggle to convince anyone that Food Network is merely a "random blog-like website" and therefore not reliable. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Those are better sources than the previous ones, indeed, however, you can see that the differnces between these two sweets are not so obvious. Now i have a question for you all, if the difference between sherbet and sorbet is dairy products, then what's the differences between sherbet and ice cream ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:38, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Sherbet has less milk and can incorporate eggs. ✶Mitch199811✶ 16:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  This argument is rather subjective, what's the threshold of dairy products ? 1% ? 10% ? 30% ? anyway, as i said above, i'm convinced to some extant by your rationale and i think we're done here. Thanks for the collegial discussion, Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for your civility. For your question, Im not sure of the exact number but I think it is somewhere in the range of 2-8%.✶Mitch199811✶ 01:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, The reliability of some sources here have been discussed at wp:Reliable sources noticeboard#Merriam-Webster. ✶Mitch199811✶ 17:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. The dictionary linked by the nominator is not the OED, but rather the Oxford Advanced American Dictionary, a learners' dictionary intended for people who are still learning English. We shouldn't be citing learners' dictionaries for fine distinctions between similar words. In contrast, the Oxford Dictionary of Food and Nutrition, a specialized dictionary, gives this definition (paywalled but available through The Wikipedia Library) for sherbet: "In the USA a frozen dessert containing 1–2% milk fat, 2–5% dairy solids; as opposed to sorbet, which contains no dairy solids." —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 20:45, 30 July 2023 (UTC)