Talk:Spanish language

Limits of this page

Regarding this recently deleted, and then undeleted, statement: The Spanish spoken in North Africa by native bilingual speakers of Arabic or Berber who also speak Spanish as a second language features characteristics involving the variability of the vowel system. This means that the way Spanish is spoken as a second language in one particular non-native area is relevant for this page. Apparently it is more relevant because of the presence of 2 Spanish cities in North Africa, which probably means that it is even more relevant for places like the US, Brazil or several Caribbean nations. Should we include, for instance, that students of Spanish from the US have trouble with the /ɾ/ - /r/ difference and they often get rid of the distinction in their Spanish? Or that Brazilian students of Spanish tend to pronounce both those sounds as velars? All that, I insist, in this particular page, and not for instance in Spanish as a second or foreign language, or other pages. I don't think that is a wise policy, the probability of someone reading this page to find out about that sort of details is, well, roughly zero. Jotamar (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Succintly outlining diglossic dynamics and language contact (and attrition) in the US in this page would be great, tbh. I am not sure if the context solely relates to "learners" in an academic setting. The current emphasis in this article favours speaking about the language in places in which it is not very spoken (plus counting up to the last speaker and not nuancing in any way whatsoever the "sovereign country" frame), instead of speaking about the languages in the places in which the language is spoken a lot, such as the Americas. In this sense, outlining dynamics of language contact and sociolinguistics in regard of some major indigenous languages of the Americas such as Guarani, Quechua or Aymara would be ace. The geographical area of linguistic transition between vernacular languages in North Africa, which is perhaps more relevant within those two cities than beyond those two cities, is interesting in a context of talking about the geographical distribution of a given language, and is perhaps less abrupt than most of the Portuguese-Spanish transition area in the Iberian Peninsula. Something about language contact in Uruguay-Brazil could be perhaps worth mentioning. All of this, of course, framing/focusing information in this article in terms of the language which this article deals about--Asqueladd (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not to say that at some point content may not be redirected to a more specific article, but frankly, the intimidating table entitled "Spanish speakers by country" full of original research and lopsided numbers should go first.--Asqueladd (talk) 22:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

In addition to relevance, another concern of mine is that, being the only mention of traits of Spanish as a second language in all of the page, the text in question might easily mislead readers into thinking that Spanish is a native language in Northern Morocco. --Jotamar (talk) 23:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the text talks about Northern Africa which deals about Spain and Morocco and it does not frames it in terms of native language. It is written thinking as those cities and its Moroccan hinterland as a region with a gradient. There are inhabitants (as well as workers: a flux of up to 30,000 vehicles a day in the Melilla-Nador-Selouane axis) in those two cities who do not have Spanish as a native language. As I said that gradient is perhaps more relevant within those Spanish cities ("Spain") than beyond them ("Morocco") but it exists both within and beyond. The source does not make a distinction either.--Asqueladd (talk) 19:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

¿what's the source of the .castilian red and .spanish blue name map?

.i found a similar map where .el .salvador, .peru, and .chile are shaded in .castilian red:

Mapa de "Castellano" frente a "Español" para referirse al español - MoverDB.com Brawlio (talk) 03:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I am from Chile and we rarely refer to the language as "Español", almost always as "Castellano," in school textbooks and casual conversation. This might be changing with immigrants from other parts of South America who prefer to use "Español". I would support changing the map to the one you linked to, or one that has Chile with dashes.

Sources:

- Chilean General Education Law from 2009, Article 30, no. 2, declaring that "Lengua Castellana" is the primary language of instruction: https://www.bcn.cl/leychile/navegar?idNorma=1006043&idParte=

- Textbook from the Ministry of Education for "Castellano" as a school subject:https://bibliotecadigital.mineduc.cl/bitstream/handle/20.500.12365/411/MONO-341.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

- Textbook from 1967 also highlighting "Castellano", showing that this is the historically relevant term: https://bibliotecadigital.mineduc.cl/handle/20.500.12365/19723?show=full Diegojosesalva (talk) 19:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I answered this on the Spanish Wikipedia, but for the Philippines the source is page 236 of La lengua española en Filipinas by the Spanish linguists Antonio Quilis and Celia Casado-Fresnillo. 85% of their respondents referred to the language as "español"; the remainder used "castellano". This maps with contemporary (although anecdotal at this point) use of the two terms in English and the Philippine languages. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 17:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

why the language hieararchy is going down to right?

i dont understand the idea about the language hierarchy goes down while veering off to right denoting the standar level of linguistic classification. so wheres the people can understand that curiousities? 182.253.54.75 (talk) 08:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It's a branch of a tree, like the one at Italic languages#Classification, just a single branch. Largoplazo (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Scope of speakership

User:Salvabl, in again restoring the text Spanish is spoken across all consonants, gives the rationale Spanish, like French, is spoken across all continents. However, the sentence that the user Largoplazo is defending is objectively false, since Spanish is an official language in Europe, the Americas, Oceania and Africa.

Spanish is not a language of anywhere in Oceania, unless one counts the trivial case of Easter Island, but Oceania isn't actually a continent.

Salvabl, for that matter, ignores Antarctica.

Salvabl seems to be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "across". A language spoken by around one-fourth of one percent of the people of Africa in a few spots that are all along the continent's northwest coast is not spoken across Africa. A language spoken by a remnant community in the Philippines is not spoken across Asia.

The text I'm objecting to conveys the impression that Spanish is spoken in appreciable numbers in locations ranging from Cairo to Cape Town, from Beirut to Beijing, from Perth to Pohnpei, from Madrid to Moscow. That impression is false. Largoplazo (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Spanish is one of the languages of Oceania, since it is an official language on Easter Island. This is uniform with the information that can be found, for example, in the Oceania article's infobox. And I think that labeling it as "trivial" is just subjective pov. What is the reason for that? its size? Would it be appropriate to label the Vatican City State as "trivial"?

Apart from that, you have stated that "Oceania isn't actually a continent". I know that the way to distinguish/count the continents varies, but if you consider that the continent is Australia (and not Oceania), then.. in which continent are the Pitcairn Islands located?

And regarding the meaning of the word "across", no misunderstanding will occur, as the context provides enough information. It is as if we read the sentence "There are approximately 3,500 species of snake spread across all continents". It is correct, but it does not imply that there are snakes on the island of Ireland, in the Svalbard archipelago or on the vast frozen plains of northern Canada (but on the continents on which they are located).

The sentence is about the continents where Spanish is spoken, not where it is official, and this should not be changed if consensus is not reached. But in this case, the main reason why I object the change is because it is not accurate, due to the different ways of distinguishing/counting continents, as well as for ignoring the Easter Island, which breaks the uniformity of information with several Wikipedia articles such as Polynesia (where Spanish, just like French, is one of the languages included in the first footnote of the article), Oceania, etc. Salvabl (talk) 11:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The Pacific Islands aren't located on any continent. Continents and countries have nothing to do with each other. A continent is a geological feature. Countries are political entities that occupy space. A country can be entirely within one continent, be split over multiple continents, or not occupy space on any continent at all. Oceania is a conventional grouping in the same way as a couple of its parts are, like Polynesia and Micronesia, or in the same way as the West Indies.

As for "across", it doesn't make sense to say that something that's false should be in the article as long as the true information that makes its falsehood plain comes later. In your snake example, "across" is appropriate. It indicates that, despite exceptions, snakes are found in most areas. If, out of all of Europe, there were snakes only in the Alps, then to say they are found "across" Europe would be false. In Asia, Oceania, Africa, and Europe, the places where Spanish is spoken are the exceptions. Saying that Spanish is spoken "across Asia" because a small community in the Philippines speaks it it isn't at all like the snake example, it's nonsense. "Across" doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean. Largoplazo (talk) 13:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not Oceania is a real continent doesn't matter - Spanish is in fact spoken (non-trivially/by significant numbers) on at least some portion of every other continent.

Even if we decide against saying that Spanish is spoken on every continent in the lede, we should still avoid counting continents. In some areas it's conventional to consider the Americas a single continent, in others they're two different continents, this article's lede doesn't need to take a side.

I think Largoplazo might be right to object to the word "across" (although the same wording is also found on French language) – there shouldn't be any problems with replacing it with something like "on", right? Erinius (talk) 09:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, seeing as this dispute is basically about how to quickly go over the geographical extension of Spanish, I thought I'd see how some other sources do this. This is basically a list of convenience, from whatever sources I had on hand.

• "...there are more than 400 million native or near-native speakers of Spanish in the world, distributed across every continent except Antarctica. Spanish is the official language in twenty-one countries plus Puerto Rico; is the de facto first language for most of Gibraltar (Fierro Cubiella 1997; Kramer 1986); still maintains a small foothold in the Philippines..." John Lipski, "Geographical and Social Varieties of Spanish: An Overview", in The Handbook of Hispanic Linguistics
• "Spanish is spoken in Europe, Latin America, certain areas of Africa, the United States, and to some extent in the Philippines." Manuel Díaz-Campos' introduction to the Handbook of Hispanic Sociolinguistics
• "Spanish is a world-wide international language spoken on four continents and is established as the official language in 22 countries: Spain; Mexico, ... and Panama (Latin America); Equatorial Guinea (west Africa); and the Philippines (south-east Asia)" - Elena Fernández de Molina Ortés and Juan M. Hernández-Campoy, "Geographic Varieties of Spanish", The Cambridge Handbook of Spanish Linguistics
• "It is an official language in Spain, nineteen Latin American republics and Puerto Rico (see Map 22.2), as well as Equatorial Guinea in Africa. There is residual use in the Philippines and frequent use in many parts of the USA..." - Tuten, Pato and Schwarzwald, "Spanish, Astur-Leonese, Navarro-Aragonese, Judaeo-Spanish", in The Oxford Guide to the Romance Linguistics
• "Spanish has today become a world language with more than 350 million speakers who are concentrated in Spain and the Americas, but who are also to be found in Africa and Asia" - Ralph Penny's A History of the Spanish Language, 2nd edition, Introduction chapter

Erinius (talk) 04:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for providing such valuable information.

Apart from the problem caused by the different ways of distinguishing/counting continents, that make the number variable.. even if the continents where Spanish is an official language were listed one by one, there would still be a part of Chile (the Easter Island) that would not be covered in the list, and where Spanish is an official language.

But, apart from that, there is no need to further complicate this, since at no time has there been a consensus for the initial sentence of the fourth paragraph to address the continents where there are countries in which Spanish is an official language. The sentence is about where the Spanish language is spoken, not about where it is official.

However, I consider appropriate the suggestion made by @Erinius to replace the word "across" with "on", since reducing a possible ambiguity always improves the article. Salvabl (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad we could reach a consensus on "on". @Largoplazo: do we also have a consensus on not counting/numbering continents? Erinius (talk) 18:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It isn't spoken in Australia. There's no sense in having the article say something that will strike many readers as false outright, in the vain expectation that they'll come here and find this special pleading for the fringe convention of treating Oceania as a continent while pretending Australia isn't one, and that they'll buy into it. And all because one person wants to make this superlative claim about the speakership of the language despite the reality that it falls short, even if just by a little bit. Largoplazo (talk) 20:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "Spanish is spoken on all continents" is either false by the usual (anglosphere, at least) listing of continents or it's vacuous (sure, there are some Australians who can and do speak Spanish when Down Under, and at any time there are bound to be some folks in Antarctica who speak Spanish). The statement is puffery, reads like PR promo. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 21:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I was actually willing to concede Antartica (for "on", not "across"), insofar as Argentina and Chile claim chunks of it and, more to the point, have resident populations there, including families and schools. But I can understand if others are reluctant. Your last sentence is what I was driving at; I agree. Largoplazo (talk) 00:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Right. And the question about the Chilean and Argentine populations is how permanent the residents are. Supposedly there have been only 11 people born in Antarctica, suggesting a) that families don't stay long, b) there's little -- more likely no -- native population. Unsurprisingly, populations greatly reduce during the winter. I suppose the issue turns on what the definition of "Spoken on continent X" is meant to be. It's easy (and facile) to engineer it to include or exclude Spanish on Antarctica. Native American code talkers served in the Pacific, North African, and European theaters in WW2, and no doubt chatted amongst themselves. Was e.g. Navajo spoken in/on [overseas location]? Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 18:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

"Spoken on all continents" is not real information, it is rather a slogan for some sort of linguistic jingoism. --Jotamar (talk) 23:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Largoplazo: Good point on Australia – I hadn't really thought too hard about considering it as a continent.

I guess the current claim does seem like puffery and should probably be removed – also, it's not like "nationsonline.com" is the best source to use, nor does it support the "all continents" claim anyway. Do we want to keep some kind of brief overview of Spanish's geographic distribution in the lede? It already mentions Spanish originating in Spain and then being introduced "to overseas locations, most notably to the Americas". Is that enough? Erinius (talk) 03:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The easiest solution might be to just remove "Spanish is spoken on all continents" and move what would then be a stranded footnote up into the appropriate spot in the first paragraph. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 05:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Erinius (talk) 20:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Where do we stand as of now? @Salvabl: I'm good with Barefoot through the chollas' suggestion, and I imagine everyone else who commented here would be. There's no longer any consensus in favor of keeping "spoken on all continents" it seems. What do you think? Erinius (talk) 01:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

As you says, consensus is against Salvabl's position, and that's all that's required to proceed. Let's remove the sentence, and I'm fine with Chollas' specific recommendation. User:Barefoot through the chollas, do you want to do the honors, finding a suitable spot for the footnote? Largoplazo (talk) 02:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Done. Deleted the continents bit, and moved the note to the end of the sentence beginning Spanish is the official language of. If anyone has a better place for it, by all means feel free to adjust. (Separately, I executed what might pass superficially as a stylistic tweak: vocabulary derived from Latin to Latin in origin. If anyone disagrees, we can discuss it and find better wording; I'm aware that in origin can be as misleading as derived from.) Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

If there is sufficient common consensus to reduce any possible ambiguity or inaccuracy, then such a change should be implemented. I have no problem with that. The point is that I considered the existence of different ways of distinguishing/counting continents sufficient reason to keep the disputed statement, taking into account the notion of Oceania as a continent (which, although not common, also exists in the English-speaking world).

In any case, this criteria shall then be taken into account also for other articles of languages that can be regarded as global (similar wording can be found on the article of French language), in order to avoid any possible bias; since it would not make sense that a change implemented in order to make this article's content more accurate, could result in a biased lack of uniformity of criteria.

I am going to add a link to this discussion in the French language article (in a edit summary), as it is necessary to remove the analogous statement in that article, since French language is not spoken on the Australian continent. Salvabl (talk) 02:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

American centric

This article seems very American centric, ignoring the language’s actual origin. Furthermore it also seems to be USA centric, with it’s description often longer than any other nation despite not even having spanish as the first official language DirkjanenBert (talk) 20:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Given that approximately 90% of Spanish speakers are in the Americas, a concentration on Spanish in the Americas is to be expected, regardless of its origin in Spain. As for being US-centric, I haven't done my own assessment but if it is, then you make a good point. Largoplazo (talk) 13:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)