Talk:Special settlements in the Soviet Union/Archive 1

Archive 1

0.5M rant

This article is billed as the 500,000th article on Wikipedia - see Wikipedia:Press_releases/March_2005. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:30, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The reasoning behind that decision was flawed and based on a misreading of what I said. -- Cyrius|✎ 20:07, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cyrius is referring to an erroneous assumption that another article wasn't included in the count. However, there is separate reasoning, independent of errors elsewhere, that identifies this as being the article. --Michael Snow 20:58, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Er - could you be slightly less cryptic - how and where was the decision made, who made it, and what evidence was is based on? -- ALoan (Talk) 22:05, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about that, this discussion is going on in multiple places at once. See Wikipedia talk:Half-million pool, although I guess it's still being debated there. --Michael Snow 22:38, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Horrible notice

Hopefully the horrible notice from the top of the page will be gone before long. I don't see how being the x'th article means we can start self-referencing, or worse still, linking into the Wikipedia namespace--which I will mention probably doesn't get picked up by mirrors, and surely won't be in a printed edition. I will assume that this talk page is getting a lot of traffic, and if this comment doesn't garner too much objection, I might just go ahead and remove it. - Vague | Rant 01:14, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

I've already done it, and I expect good arguments for putting it in. Wikipedia:Avoid self-references, and Wikipedia's primary duty is to its readers, not itself. A tag of controversial content is put on the talk page, but glowing enthusiasm on Wikipedia's growth gets pasted at the top of an article we've hauled in as the Chosen One? No. I don't object to putting the notice on the talk page, and we can go as crazy on the Main Page as we like. But let's not compromise our professionality for self-promotion here. JRM 01:20, 2005 Mar 19 (UTC)

Updating

I didn't expect to get myself in the limelight. I have no good plan to make a good article at once. I realize the topic is obscure for vast majority of english-speaking people. Usually my style of work is to add pieces of knowledge along the way I stumble upon them. So unless someone joins for good, don't expect a full-fleshed article very soon. Mikkalai 03:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sources

• Принудительные миграции в годы второй мировой войны и после ее окончания (1939–1953): Forced migrations during WWII and after
• ПОЛЬСКИЕ СПЕЦПЕРЕСЕЛЕНЦЫ В СССР в 1940–1941 гг.: Polish special-resettlers in 1940-1941
• В.Н.Земсков.Заключенные, спецпоселенцы, ссыльнопоселенцы, ссыльные и высланные (Статистико географический аспект) История СССР. 1991, #5. С.151-165. (Statistical tables drawn from archives, in Russian).

Scope

A word of caution: this article has to have only the summary of the "population" of these settlements. Details must go into the corresponding "main articles". For example, for "Exile settlement" section, the "main article" would be something like Population transfer in the Soviet Union. I didn't do it for the sole reason that the latter one is a scarse summary itself. Mikkalai 04:37, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Koreans on the Kola Peninsula?

I realize that the source of Mikkalai and the English text both seem to indicate in similar manner that Greeks, Chinese, Koreans etc were deported from the Murmansk Oblast. But it all seems a little improbable to me. How did they get to the Kola in the first place? Could it be that these groups were deported from quite different regions (Chinese and Koreans from the Far East, Greeks from the Black Sea region)? The Russian text has an ambivalence, it is not necessary to conclude that these groups were deported from the Murmansk Oblast. Who could investigate the matter and clarify the text? Russian text (source 1 above): 23 июня 1940 года Берия издал приказ о переселении между 5 и 10 июля из Мурманска и Мурманской обл. «граждан инонациональностей», к которым были причислены не только соседние народы — финны, шведы и норвежцы (их, в количестве 2540 семей, или 6973 чел., переселили в Карело-Финскую АССР), но и китайцы, немцы, поляки, греки, корейцы и т. д. (всего 675 семей, или 1743 чел.), направленные на Алтай. Ctande 19:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no ambivalence in the quoted text. BTW, the small head count is an implicit confirmation. Indeed, there were repressions of Koreans and Chinese, and on a much larger scale. The corresponding aricles are still in red in Mass operations of the NKVD. Mikkalai 00:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I forgot to comment your question: how did they get there? Well, people tend to migrate, you know. But the question about Koreans and Chinese is related to another interesting part of the history: their active participation in Russian Revolution and Russian Civil War, waiting for an article to be written. Mikkalai 03:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think you are wrong, Mikkalai, but admit that I am unable to prove it. When I said "ambivalence" in the Russian text, I was maybe using the wrong word; I believe the comma (implying that the Koreans and Greeks were deported from Kola) ought to have been a period, and thus it would open up for the possibility that the Russian author forgot to point out that these people came from other places.

Please. This is not the Bible or Talmud or other sacred text. There is no reason to look for hidden meanings. If there are doubts, we shall look for other sources. Unlike wikipedia, this text was written by serious researches and has it own logic of exposition, which makes me think that the phrase says what the author wanted. (Although I agree that this does not preclude the possibility that the author was mistaken.) Mikkalai 20:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1) Yes, I note the low number of people (1743 человек), and recognize it as an argument. However, it cuts also the other way as it seems improbable to me that there were so few ethnic Germans in the area which had rich mines (like Apatity) - developing and running mines was a German specialty.

I am afraid you are mistaken or expressing yoursef insufficiently clearly. Anyway, running mines requires a few supervising engineers. Even from the times of Imperial Russia, when Germans were definitely in charge of many mines, they were just that: in charge. You don't need a big number of bosses. Mikkalai 20:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

2) Another source available on the internet, an article by Prof. Kolstø of the University of Oslo on "The ethnical terror of Stalin" [1] says "Dette dreide seg om mennesker fra de forskjelligste deler av landet: koreanere og kinesere fra Det fjerne østen ((The Far East), tyskere fra sentrale strøk rundt Volga, kurdere, grekere, og armenere fra Svartehavsområdet (Black Sea area),..."

You seem you didn't read my previous answer. Yes, Koreans and Chinese from Far Eash had their own trouble. But during the Civil War people of these ethnicities moved into many places of Russia. Mikkalai 20:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

3) It also seems to me strange that the NKVD went into the trouble of sending all these non-Scandinavians from Kola all the way to the Altai, and there, by the way, augmenting the number of Germans who were already there in such abundant numbers that the Communist were busy russifying them.Ctande 16:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for expressing your doubts. I will look for further information. Mikkalai 20:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here you are: Book of Memory: names of repressed of Kola peninsula and Murmansk Oblast. Examples of Koreans:

• Ким Василий Иванович, 1892, г. Никольск-Уссурийский Амурской области, кореец. Станция Кандалакша Кировской железной дороги, дорожный мастер; г. Кандалакша Мурманской области. Арестован 14.03.38, ст. 58-6-11 УК. Осужден 31.05.38 Комиссией НКВД и Прокуратуры СССР, ВМН. Расстрелян 27.06.38. Место расстрела - г. Ленинград. Реабилитирован 15.05.89 Прокуратурой Мурманской области. (Справка уточнена.)
• Ким Яков Петрович, 1906, с. Таудимы Приморского края, кореец. Комбинат "Апатит", обогатительная фабрика, начальник; г. Кировск Мурманской области, пр. Ленина, д. 2, кв. 20. Арестован 1.09.36, ст. 58-7-8-11 УК. Осужден 7.05.37 Верховным судом СССР, ВМН. Расстрелян 8.05.37. Реабилитирован 24.10.57 Верховным судом СССР

You may search this huge list yourself for other nationalities. Mikkalai 20:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Okay, you have convinced me. Thank you. Strange about deporting East Asians towards East Asia, though... Ctande 09:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nothing strange here, if you read the article carefully: in the section in question the idea was to cleanse the border regions from non-Russians, rather than to do something with Koreans. mikka (t) 02:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

(post war deportations)

The majority were people from territories liberated from German occupation

Some Moldavians were deported after the war, but claiming their territory was liberated, is, well... not factually true. Another formulation should be found. Bogdan | Talk 22:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK. Mikkalai 00:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

NKVD monitoring of exiled

After some time the requirement of a person to report could be lifted. But I am not sure whether this meant the lift of the travel or settlement restriction (although the "101st kilometre" rule was a separate issue). Mikkalai 17:49, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jewish Autonomous Oblast

(Евре́йская автоно́мная о́бласть - Yevreyskaya avtonomnaya oblast; formerly Jewish Autonomous Republic)

Complete neglect of mentioning that from the populations of Poles and Scandinavians and the other Eastern Europeans, is that the Jews were further segregated into their own territory between east of Lake Baikal and the upper Amur River. Schlüggell | Talk 18:26, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They were not "segregated". And there was but a tiny fraction of Jews there. Finally, it was not "involuntary". Mikkalai 04:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Greeks as enemy population?

Under "preventative" removals 1941-2, the article says that several nationalities, including Finns, Romanians, and Greeks were removed as enemy populations. The Greeks require explanation, since Greece had just fought (and lost) against Hitler and Mussolini - whereas the Finns and the Romanians were Hitler's allies.

This may well be what Stalin did, but why? Septentrionalis 23:46, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For those, who read and understand Russian

Shouldn't we include info on колония-поселение (koloniya-poseleniye)? I'm not even sure how to translate it into English (prison settlement?). They used to transfer people from minimum, medium, and maximum security prisons (колонии общего, усиленного и строгого режимов correspondingly?) to these kolonii-poseleniya, whenever they were deemed ready to be introduced back into society. There were alsmost no guards, "prisoners" were allowed outside visits, they were paid for their work and could live with their families etc. It was for the purpose of putting inmates' lives back on track, so to speak. Or was it just for real criminals? KNewman 03:51, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that this is a relatively modern term. Also, the meaning of the word "colony" changed over time. In particular, I cannot figure out the difference between "corrective labor colony" and "corrective labor camp".

In all corrective labor establishments inmates have been paid for their work at all times.

Mikkalai 05:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"prison colony"? nobs

"penal settlement".

According to Russian Ministry of Justice, "koloniya-poselenie is a settlement where inmates live and work. Within the territory of the settlement thay may move freely, without guards. The inmates live there under supervision (под надзором), not under guard (под стражей). They may live in normal living conditions, even with families." Mikkalai 05:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Still, this kind of settlement is of "institutionalized" type, unlike the ones described in the article, which are of "exile" type. So I wouldn't describe them here. Mikkalai 05:27, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Past COTW

This is the page taken from WP:COTW

Support:

1. Dmn / Դմն 18:09, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
2. ✏ OvenFresh² 18:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
3. Tothebarricades.tk 18:49, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. --Alexandre Van de Sande 21:15, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
5. Mikkalai 21:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
6. J3ff 22:29, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
7. Gerritholl 22:41, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
8. Gkhan 00:26, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
9. DAVODD 02:02, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
10. Litefantastic 02:26, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
11. Jonathunder 04:51, 2005 Mar 19 (UTC)
12. KNewman 07:01, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
13. Hippalus 11:06, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
14. Neutrality^talk 03:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
15. Juppiter 11:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
16. Merovingian (t) (c) (w) 21:58, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
17. gren 14:42, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
18. →mathx314^{(talk)(email)} 20:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
19. Aris Katsaris 02:04, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
20. Melaen 19:36, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
21. bainer 12:40, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
22. Dhartung | Talk 18:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
23. Robinoke 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
24. Zxcvbnm 23:15, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
25. Pyromonkeykw 11:15, 17 Apr 2005

Comments:

• Wikipedia's 500,000th english article - likely to be visited by outsiders? Dmn / Դմն 18:09, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

not likely anymore. Mikkalai 19:30, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We need to improve this quickly lest someone view it and dismiss Wikipedia in general because a new article isn't up to par. --Tothebarricades.tk 18:49, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• I think you've got a good idea, and COTW certainly is the place for such a project, however this article will almost certainly sit in the queue for a month or more before it has even a chance of being COTW. My suggestion is for everyone interested to start working right away and not wait until it gets COTW status. —thames 20:44, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• I would love to work right away, and I would do it if I knew anything about that subject. But this article surely deserves to be COTW.--Alexandre Van de Sande 21:15, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• This article was on my waiting list for nearly a year, since I started my personal project category:Soviet political repressions. My motivation was to fend off deniers by solid facts, rather than quotations from various anti-Soviet books. Unfortunately I am not a historian, and the amount of factual material available on web is vast (mostly in Russian, much of which was provided by Memorial society), so that it will take a significant effort to sqeeze ... er... summarize it in an encyclopedia article. Mikkalai 21:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• I agree with start working right now as if it already were COTW. Gerritholl 22:41, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• This is not a stub. Should be in WP:AID. Mgm|^(talk) 12:18, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

• It was a stub when it was nominated, so it still counts.—thames 13:55, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Agreed, this falls within the guidelines, despite the ongoing improvements. --Dhartung | Talk 18:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Involuntary?

Involuntary is when you finish your study and you have to go to a place you don't like to. This article is about Forced settlements in the Soviet Union.Xx236 13:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

And why would you have to go to a place you don't like to? `'Míkka 16:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Are there any sources confirming the existence of Involuntary settlements notion in English language?
• Russian name should be quoted in the article.

Xx236 08:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• • All Russian names for various types of involuntary settlements are duly mentioned all over the article. A little google search could have shown you that "involuntary settlemets" do exist in English language. But I agree that "forced settlement" is much more frequent term. `'Míkka 18:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I mean - what is the Russian equivalent of the title of this article.

BTW - what was the situation of Old Believers? That article contains a black hole 1917-1971. Xx236 06:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree the title is very strange, the usuall word is deportations, sometimes ethnic cleansing. Perhaps a request for move should be in order, Poland, Russia, German, Baltic Noticeboards should be informed of such move as it concerns citizens from said countries --Molobo 13:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The article is about settlements, which resulted from deportations. Deportations have quite a few their own artices, see category:Forced migration in the Soviet Union. You are welcome to write more of them. `'Míkka 19:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems strange that it is divided in such way. Perhaps it should be merged with sub-articles regarding specific groups that were target of Soviet opression. --Molobo 20:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Nothing strange. And it is not "divided". Just the opposite. This is a summary, overall article about types of forced settlements. It has small sections for each category of deportations. Its exestance do not contradict existence of detailed sub-articles. Please see Wikipedia:Summary style. `'Míkka 22:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would the articles on deportation and forced settlements be separated?

Because this is how wikipedia works: each notable topic deserves its own article. `'Míkka 04:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"Freedom" to travel--or not--in intro

There is a basic problem I see in the intro:

• there was a significant degree of freedom of travel

versus

• the travel was permitted only within the specified area [i.e., settlement], and
• all settlers were under NKVD monitoring

The actual facts of allowed travel do not support the characterization "significant degree of freedom." Everyone's papers said specifically what little area they were entitled to travel in without prior notice/approval. That is not anything that anyone can objectively associate with "freedom." —PētersV (talk) 00:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not a "basic" problem, simply a poor choice of words. Please notice that the sentence compares forced settlemets with gulag camps. Anyway, you were right, and I replaced "significant" to "relative", to make the comparison clearer. `'Míkka>t 02:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• good source (Russian) on the life conditions in settlements.Biophys (talk) 04:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

See Talk:Population transfer in the Soviet Union#Merge proposal. - Altenmann >t 18:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

June 2020 edits

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "unsourced / dubious; rm section apparently unrelated to special settlements". --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC)