Talk:Squat dance

A misleading and badly sourced article

@BrownieBrown: I've tagged the article for having multiple problems, not the least of which is WP:SYNTH as it conflates "Russian" with Rus', Cossack with Russian, and points to the Hopak, Trepak, the Kozachok and other Ukrainian/Cossack/Eastern European Slavic traditional dances (as well as Terek Cossack style dances. Certainly, Russian traditional dance styles often feature the squat, but it is hardly exclusive to Russian dances. I have no doubt this was written in good faith, but was it even submitted for review? Could we please make an attempt to de-Russify this pop culture interpretation and present a balanced one instead. Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I can see the problem. Looks to me like the best idea is to call the article "Squat dancing" or "Squatting in dancing" covering the phenomina of squatting in dance. I have something in Squatting_position#Dancing but there would probably be too much material to include it all there. Balinese dancing for example involves partial squatting. Possibly even squatting in ballet qualifies (plie and demi plie).--Penbat (talk) 09:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree. That's why I tagged it for globalisation. There would only be two ways to address it, with the first being proscribing it to Eastern European styles only, or the second being to expand it with RS, with my preference being for the latter. The prominent problem is finding the RS for 'squat' dancing as a mainstream descriptor for the styles. As you've observed, the 'squat' in everything from classical jazz and other formal styles of ballet/art dancing have other technical terms. From my google search, the use of 'squat dancing' is very much a limited YouTube phenomena (therefore based on a user generated content)... so I'm now leaning towards it needing to be changed fairly dramatically or deleted. Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I think that it is best to delete it but at the same time have a paragraph written at Squatting_position#Dancing. The element of squatting in dancing is interesting but its manifestations are diverse. You even get partial squatting in twerking.--Penbat (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

That's probably a good work-around. Technically, in both Russian and Ukrainian folk dancing, the position is known as 'prisyadka' (Russian)/'prysyadka' (Ukrainian). It translates roughly as 'squat' (although it breaks down into component parts of the 'pre' prefix and 'sit' [pre-sit]). So long as we don't overstep into OR, I think it's best to amalgamate this instance into a pre-existing article. I don't think this is too much of a challenge as there are Russian and Ukrainian RS dealing with this traditional dance move, and references don't have to be in English. Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:04, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

The squat has always been referred as a Russian cultural element. A de-Russification is not possible because it is a integral part of the Russian culture. What exactly is your idea? I just hope it's meant sincerely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrownieBrown (talk • contribs) 12:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

@Penbat you compare it with some moves in some dances and your conclusion is that it has to do something with twerking and stuff ? sorry, i hope you are not serious about that. i make you aware that its a important cultural feature of Russia and that's why the article is important. it is absolutely not comparable with your examples and its a very important part of Russias identity and history. it is not wise to weeping for very strange reasons something so important under the carpet.--85.212.187.159 (talk) 11:04, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Pop Culture Influence?

Should this article list any pop culture influence this type of dance has had (e.g., Team Fortress 2 Kazotsky Kick)? 131.123.50.51 (talk) 21:43, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Is there a case for deletion?

@TaivoLinguist, Toddy1, Faustian, Khajidha, Tobby72, E-960, Rosguill, Paul Siebert, Seryo93, Thomas.W, Sidoroff-B, and Pincrete:

My apologies for potentially running afoul of canvassing, but I have intentionally selected a very disparate group of editors who know their way around Eastern European subjects in detail - none of whose opinions I could actually vouch for as regards this particular query - and a fair and rational administrator who is welcome to reprimand me, but am hoping takes this casual survey as being in its intended good faith. The administrator in question is aware of my health being poorly, and my somewhat rambling attempts to articulate things at the moment.

This article is based on a neologism, and is attracting more synth as users discover it. Please see the above responses to my original querying of its existence for my reasons for questioning the existence of this article, and responses from good faith editors who've misunderstood my reason for objecting to it.

Please note that I have left a message on the creator's page regarding this discussion I've initiated. As they have not edited since 13 October 2019, I have no idea as to whether they will respond, but wish to give them the opportunity to state their policy and guideline case for having created it in the first case.

Thank you, in advance, to those of you who respond (or even read this message). Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:48, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, I'm not an expert in performing arts so my understanding might be limited, but I would say that this dance "move" or "style" could be equated to the American breakdancing in a way, though I do agree that for the article to be up to par, it needs proper reference sources and it needs to avoid linking the dance with just one nation or ethnicity. Also, I did notice there there is not much reference to the "Squat Dance" on the internet, so I'm not sure, but this might be more of a "move" than a full "dance", in which case the article at least needs to be renamed. --E-960 (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

E-960 - Thanks for the response. The article is certainly a conundrum. I've found the term, but its use is limited to YouTubian spaces and related forums. I agree that it could be construed as a dance move, but reliable sources don't have a name for the move, neither does it explain the WP:OFFTOPIC / WP:SYNTH waffle about the origins of the Eastern Slavs. Yes, there is a move that exists in some Slavic cultures but, no, it isn't described in any reliable English language sources. There are also other 'impressive' moves, but nothing to make this one stand out over and above the others... Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:13, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

It's a tough one, on one hand you could equate it to some other articles that describe dance moves, however if there is a lack of reliable reference sources, it can indeed result in SYNTH. I guess if the quality and reliability of the article can't be bough up to standards then delete might be needed. --E-960 (talk) 06:32, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

That was the conclusion I came to. It kind of merits a mention, but we know that the world if full of 'stuff'. Wikipedia plays host to 'stuff' even more trivial and suspect than this, but I don't think we should encourage the trend of creating our own mythology. Cheers, again, for thinking it through. Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:58, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I think that redirecting to Tropak and merging anything reliable is probably the best solution. That having been said, while Russian squat dance, Cossack squat dance and Ukrainian squat dance would be good redirects to Tropak, it was easier to find squat dance-related coverage for non-Slavic cultures so it seems wrong to actually keep Squat dance as a redirect to there. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 04:01, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally, I'm not sure that the way Trepak and Tropak are currently titled is ideal, since the latter seems to be the primary topic for both names. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 04:02, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, Rosguill. There are numerous minor article more concerned with ethnic group 'ownership' than establishing what the subject is best known for/as. Indeed, the "Tripak" is a Ukrainian dance, but it would not be famous if it weren't for Tchaikovsky's writing of the piece/ballet score - he, himself, having spent much of his youth in Ukraine taking in the folk culture. As you say, I wouldn't even bother with Google Scholar to establish "Tropak" as being WP:COMMONNAME. Both articles are in need of being merged, a serious copy edit, and some more solid sources. The "Hopak", of course, remains Ukrainian, but is danced in, and loved in Russia as well: hence there is a redirect from "Gopak", the Russian rendition of its name. The version best known around the world is actually a Soviet academic folk dance fantasy based on just a few of the moves in the true folk tradition, but the theatrical tradition would not approve of the lack of sobriety expected of the dancer who should be able to perform the moves after a couple of bottles of vodka. From drunken things, artistry can grow! Back on tangent, per E-960's suggestion, Breakdancing may be closer as a redirect or, more apt, would be deleting this article which is a mish-mash of schoolyard tales of daring-do. Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:30, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

The Squat Dance is a important part of Russian culture and do delete it would be like to attack the heart of Russian culture. It’s just not a good ambition. Deleting something Russian from Wikipedia is ultimately directed against Wikipedia, culture and and the person who has such these intentions. There is a difference between destruction and self-destruction - but it's also very connected. That would be more than a loss for Wikipedia. I think everyone has made enough experiences in last years to understand that it is not the right way. It's time to turn around Irina and people, inclusive me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrownieBrown (talk • contribs) 17:51, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

BrownieBrown - I mean no disrespect to you, but in what way is it is an "...attack on the heart of Russian culture?", and the deletion of ...something Russian from Wikipedia..., and ...ultimately directed against Wikipedia, culture and and the person who has such these intentions." In what way are you talking about the Russian culture?

In fact, it's all a theatrical fabrication from the Soviet Era. It wasn't villagers in either Russia or Ukraine who used moves from the Boyovyy Hopak (Combat Hopak) and devised them into a war dance to get their adrenaline going and help to unnerve the enemy before battle: it was Cossacks, and old school Cossacks at that, not the new recruits to pseudo Cossack armed forces (in both Russia and Ukraine). In fact, ethnologists and linguists consider them to be a different ethnicities, in Kuban speaking a predominantly Ukrainian language known as balachka; the Don Cossacks speak a language which is a fusion of Ukrainian, Russian, Kalmyk, and Tatar elements. Terek Cossacks are yet another ethnicity. So who are the real Cossacks, and to whom does does the pryskyadka truly belong? It's the fantasy of a homogeneous Russian or Ukrainian culture. Nationalism didn't even emerge until the 19th century, and most people didn't know any language or the world beyond their village. The different cultures, accents, linguistic expressions and social practices definitely existed from 20 miles to 20 miles, but villagers did not dance Cossack dances elegantly and sing Russian operas after a day of toil. Whose culture are you really talking about? Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:07, 25 February 2020 (UTC)