Talk:St. Mary's College of Maryland/Archive 1

Talk page comments may be cut pasted here in order to clear the area when it becomes full (as it has become)

It is normal for Talk pages to fill up. But after they do, their content may be moved here in order to clear those pages.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 14:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Simply cut and paste the old "Talk Page" contents over here, if desired.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 14:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Can a school contribute/have input to a Wikipedia article about itself?

The answer is yes (a qualified yes). This includes additions, deletions, and other aspects as well. (With caveats that should be learned about).

There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning a little about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Or can just input into the editorial process, the school is allowed to ask (Wikipedia requires that it be constructively)--

for specific changes (even beyond factual correction, even including asking for editorial adjustments).

There are also limits, but the school can have a lot of input, through a variety of channels.

I encourage tasking someone to learn more about it.

This does not require advanced professional training--

Wikipedia is edited by volunteers. The school probably already has Wikipedia volunteers in it's community. Just ask around.

• There are also special pages on Wikipedia were you can ask for volunteers to help out. Just do a little research.

Also various classes of college faculty and staff are considered eligible by Wikipedia and may edit an article for an institution (if the college allots them sufficient time to prioritize it), (it can be extremely time consuming--

Especially when creating or developing an entire article, this can take a commitment of many hours for a college sized article and following Wikipedia guidelines, of course which are easy to learn).

Although time consuming for an article of this size, Wikipedia editing is not hard to learn, it is designed to let someone start editing almost right away.

Anyway, I'm going to be moving on soon, to other projects, but these options might help the school learn how it can input into this article.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Logo, Gov Cup, and current statistics

The logo image is outdated. The current logo has a clear, rather than solid blue, border. There should probably be a paragraph about Governor's Cup (and the MLK Prayer Breakfast, since it's becoming a major annual event). There are also significant updates to add for the sailing and basketball teams for the 2008-09 season. Pureonsense (talk) 15:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Only the school itself can upload it's (most recent) logo to Wikimedia Commons. They don't currently seem very savvy in this area. There is now a category on Wikimedia commons, called "St. Mary's College of Maryland" which is the ONLY place any donated images should be added to, otherwise they may not be searchable. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 03:11, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Although anyone can provide personal pics they have taken of college buildings, the college can contribute these as well (see above for proper category to add them to). 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 03:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

University system

St. Mary's College of Maryland is not listed as part of the University System of Maryland on the system's Web page. I've sent the system an E-mail enquiring about this. What makes us think that it is part of the system? Bill 08:25, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Here's the response I received from the University System of Maryland:

You are correct that St. Mary's College of Maryland is not a part of the University System of Maryland, nor has it ever been. When the System was formed in 1988, both St. Mary's and Morgan State University (the other four-year public university in Maryland) "opted out" and negotiated separate budget arrangements with the State. We do have some reciprocity with respect to things like tuition remission for employees, and we do frequently invite both non-USM senior publics to participate in discussions of common issues (through mechanisms like our Inter-institutional Committee). The USM, however, consists only of the 13 institutions -- 11 degree-granting and 2 research -- listed on our web page.

Bill 12:45, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Green Door

If anyone knows where or who to contact to get sources of information about the Green Door (its history), I'd like to write an article about it. Thanks. -- Stbalbach 17:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Foundation

The article's history section says the school was founded in the 60s, but in the intro and box we say 1840. I assume it's the former, but where is 1840 coming from? john k (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The school became a 4 year institution in the 1960s. It was established in 1840 as a womens two year school to serve as a living tribute to those who founded the state of Maryland. It remained a two year school until the 1960s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TulsaUKBC (talk • contribs) 16:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It was a two year College during all those years but it also had Junior and Senior High school students for decades and before that I think grades 9 and 10 as well. So it was a two year Junor college from the 1920s through the 1960s, but it also was a high school with varying grades during that time period (most high school students would then go to the Junior college when they finished the St. Marys seminary high school).2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 03:34, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Photo's of St. Mary's College badly needed

The article really needs more photo's.

BUT REMEMBER If you have pictures of the college on Flickr, they can be used here but ONLY if you have to set them to NO COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS whatsoever (use your Flickr settings to REMOVE any and all limits on reuse).

We especially need pictures of buildings, but other pictures are needed as well.

Just post the links to your pictures here and I can do the rest. (NOTE: if you don't post the link here, then it will be impossible to find your picture).

Many thanks in advance! :-)

2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 03:58, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Anybody with knowledge of Wikimedia can also upload them there too (be sure to release the copyrights limits there too --all of them or they can not be reused on Wikipedia). VERY IMPORTANT--

Please ALWAYS add them to the category "St. Mary's College of Maryland." Which should be written like this [[Category: St. Mary's College of Maryland]] (Don't leave out the word "category" and don't leave out the word "Maryland" because there are over a dozen St. Mary's Colleges worldwide. If you don't do these things, no one will ever be able to find your upload.

Thanks! :-)

2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 04:06, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

We got a lot of photos of St. Mary's College through people, which are now on Wikimedia commons. Thanks everybody!Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

J. Frank Raley photo

Is not formatted and sourced properly for Wikipedia so it keeps getting autoscanned and removed. Because he was a politician there are many photos of him out there. Will look for another one when I have time. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Ted Lewis

I've been busy and haven't gotten yet to the most recent college history. I added a little on Ted Lewis today. He made enormous contributions to the school. To see what he did for the school, just look at all the stats and points in the main body of the "Modern Day St. Mary's College" super-section of the article. Many people were involved, of course, but he played major, pivotal roles in this process. Many news and other Wikipedia-standard quality sources reflect this.

More coming when I have time. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Lucille Clifton photo

Wikipedia has changed it's copyright threshold on acceptable images for it's articles (related to various levels of copyright protection) and is now removing some images that are not at the right level of "copyright release permissions".

For that reason, the Lucile Clifton photo was removed today (by one of the image copyright volunteers).

(Wikipedia/Wkimedia review the copyright permissions that are linked to each photo, whenever it is re-posted or moved).

That specific image meets the standards for the the "Fair Use" copyright permissions level, which only allows use of the photo on a direct biography Wikipedia article, but nowhere else.

She was a very famous person and there are lots of pictures of her out there, when I have time I'll find another photo at the right release level.

Thanks! :-)

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:42, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Ditto for the Ted Lewis photo

See other posts about photos (immediately above this one),

Thanks, Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

St. Mary's College (and the old Seminary) were never a part of the plantation

The article has never stated otherwise, however I have added some more passages to the article.

(If needed) in order just to make it clear, the plantation was next door to the school (which was always a state school) and was never connected to it--

However St. Mary's College, in partnership with Historic St. Mary's City, has long been involved with researching and studying the history of slavery there, at the ruins of the old plantation, and also researches the struggle for freedom that occurred there.

(As a part of studying all of area history, from all periods).

So this is what the school researches and studies (the ruins of the old plantation nearby and the struggles of the people then). But the school was never a part of that plantation.

Also the school (of that era) was a "witness" to some of these local events of the Civil War. In addition it is customary in Wikipedia articles to talk about the history of the school (and the area's background and setting). Many of the Civil War events occurred right next to the campus.

Plus the school has always talked about Margaret Brent and Leonard Calvert as being part of it's "background history"--

But back to the school--

I'm not making any excuses for the terrible history of that era, those things really can not be excused, in any way. But for what it's worth, the school was always separate.

I've added passages to the article to make that even more clear.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

St. Mary's College mentions of all kinds of St. Mary's City area history, on it's own website, in it's literature, etc. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

However two of the men who helped found the Seminary were slave owners, and many slave owners did serve on the Board of Trustees of the college. That does not mean that the modern day college is a bad place, but it is a historical fact.Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

See page 29, https://archive.org/stream/monumentschoolof00faus#page/28/mode/2up/search/plantation

And Doctor Brome, the owner of the St. Mary's City plantation, was on the St. Mary's Female Seminary board of directors and is noted playing a key role in revitalizing the school in 1858. That doesn't make St. Mary's College in 2014 a bad school, but it is an objective fact about the school's history.

Plus the same source notes that St. Mary's Female Seminary (other sources mentioning that the school was then only somewhere around 3 to 6 acres in size), was "surrounded" by the plantation. Adding context to how plantation events of the era were a part of the school's immediate environment.

Here is the link, with the supporting historical facts.

http://stmaryscity.org/walktogether/index.php/project/st-marys-manor-2/

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The school has always traditionally talked about Margaret Brent and the Calverts as the "ground-breaking heroes" of St. Mary's City: Alexander Gough and William Gross qualify as well

Really Gough and Gross were heroic figures, Margaret Brent was not the only heroic or groundbreaking figure in St. Mary's City.

And the college has always traditionally included Brent and the Calverts in it's background history. Why not Alexander Gough and William Gross as well? Escaping from slavery (at great personal risk) and serving the country in the effort to expand freedom certainly should qualify.

The information about Gough and Gross came to light relatively recently, but they certainly rate as St. Mary's City ground-breakers, as Brent does.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 08:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

The special research and memorial mission of St. Mary's College in relation to local area history

The local history of the area (through all it's ages) is a major part of the school's 1) research mission 2) joint museum work with HSMC and 3) mission as a "living memorial" to the local area (as well as to the birth of religious freedom there).

St. Mary's College and HSMC are engaged in:

• Archeological research on the former plantation (to better understand the conditions that people lived under).
• Historical research (of old documents, letters, diaries and books).
• Producing articles and museum exhibits (so that people in modern times may better understand this history).

This is a part of the same thing that the college and HSMC do with all other historical periods in the area--

(Pre-colonial/Native American village times; early Colonial times; later colonial times, the 1800s and the 20th century).

• And always with an eye to studying the struggles/efforts to expand democracy in these various historic periods.

The school also has an institute, the Center for the Study of Democracy, that also researches and studies this local history, in order to better understand how democracy must include minority rights, how best to achieve this, what can be learned from history, etc...

The center adds the mission of "taking inspiration [and lessons] from history," applying these to study of democracy in modern times.

I just thought I would add this.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Shortened John Pendleton Kennedy section

In a college article, history sections should be "snapshots" rather than extended writing. So I shortened the section on Kennedy's efforts in the Maryland emancipation campaign and instead added a link that goes to the section of the John Pendleton Kennedy about his part in leading the state effort to end slavery.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Added sections on college "Steamboat era" and also "History of dance at St. Mary's"

These might be expanded a little more later. Also added photo of an 1850s student, which helps add a face to the early school during it's founding times.

Increasing the gallery too (collection of photos below "Steamboat era"). Maybe a few more photos coming.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Denzel Washington Jr.

Added section on Denzel Washington Jr. and the story of how his (professional/paid) acting career started in St. Mary's City (with the exception of one prior, two-minute and uncredited role). Ties into the beginning of the school's longstanding participation with HSMC in the use of period living history actors (very often student actors) to interpret the history of St. Mary's City. Plus a photo with caption with details.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Length of History section

I've been thinking for some time that the history section has really gotten too long for this article. The thing is, St. Mary's College of Maryland really has an amazing history and it's hard to leave out the various parts of it. The history of the school (and it's historic setting and surroundings) are so compelling that it's hard to leave out a lot of these key milestones.

But I'm thinking what really needs to happen is that there should be a separate article on the "History of St. Mary's College".

There is a section of the St. Mary's City, Maryland article also entitled "History of St. Mary's College", but the same problem exists over there. The combined size in that article of the sections on colonial St. Mary's City, followed by the history of the college, really gets to be too much over there too.

So I'm thinking a separate article for the college history is the way to go.

Yale actually has 12 separate pages Residential colleges of Yale University, just for that aspect.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article and then complain that it's gotten too long. In any case, it is way too long and desperately needs to be trimmed back to a reasonable size. ElKevbo (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not complaining at all. I really like the history section. I actually said that the history of the college was compelling and interesting, that's not a complaint at all.

But it has grown and evolved into something else.

By the way-- many College and University Wikipedia articles have quite long history sections.

In addition, the area history is a big part of the St. Mary's College of Maryland identity (and always has been).

• The college has a state-mandated mission (since 19840) to research and memorialize the history of the immediate area.

• The school is designated by the state of Maryland as a "Living Monument" to it's own history.

• The school is now a preeminent archeological and historical research institution.

• The school itself has researched much of the history discussed in the history section, so it simultaneously is showing what the school has discovered, or has deepened knowledge of.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

To quote what you just posted to me-- you said "It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article".

I'd like to point out that this is what the article looked like before I began to expand it--

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St._Mary%27s_College_of_Maryland&oldid=593234161

If you like, just take a look at other College and University pages.

In fact, the St. Mary's College of Maryland Wikipedia article was one of only a small handful of College or University Wikipedia articles that were similarly underdeveloped.

Chances are, it wasn't made a priority, and people were instead given a full plate of other things to do that were considered a greater priority.

No one that could have set that as a higher priority ever deemed it to be so. No one at a higher decision making level ever considered Wikipedia.

So people probably had to squeeze in any contributions outside of their other commitments, in order to facilitate the development of the article. All of this points to the college leadership not paying enough attention to the Internet, not tasking someone to give the wider Internet a primary focus.

That has to come from the top leadership because people lower down in an elite institution tend to be very busy. Room has to be created to allow time to get the job done, and let me tell you, it was very time consuming. I am unemployed, otherwise I never could have done it.

Plus the college is in an isolated area, and has been known/has even called itself a "best kept secret" (not as well known in the state of Maryland [in comparison to] other state schools). So Wikipedia editors would be less likely to even find it, in order to work on it.

A school valedictorian is mentioned in a recent article about St. Mary's questioning if the "best kept secret" phrase was really a good idea. "Do we really want the school to be a secret?" he said.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

By the way, can a school contribute to a Wikipedia article about itself? The answer is yes (a qualified yes).

There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Mention of Slavery on other College and University Wikipedia pages

There are quite a few now, these are just some examples--

• The Yale residential colleges Wikipedia article discusses how 8 of the 12 schools were started by slave owners or slave traders.

• Here is the section on slavery and Yale.

• A lot of institutions are trying to come to term with their pasts at the time. In fact there are a number that had a direct relationship to slavery, rather than just certain events happening in the vicinity of St. Mary's College. There is this significant feeling out there that it should be talked about.

• The Johns Hopkins University Wikipedia article has two mentions of abolitionism, but then also has a section mentioning the dates when African Americans first were allowed to enter the college (having an abolitionist founder did not prevent the school from later practicing racial discrimination).

• It also talks about Johns Hopkins prior "separate but equal" policy towards it's Black students.

• The University of Tennessee Wikipedia page also talks about the struggle for Civil Rights at the college and has the dates for when Black students were finally admitted.

• Many university Wikipedia websites discuss what year they first became racially integrated (these are too numerous to list).

• The Bowdoin College Wikipedia page discusses the 19th Century novel Uncle Toms Cabin, written by Harriet Beacher Stowe, the wife of a professor at the school.

• The Oberlin University Wikipedia page mentions a fugitive slave who came to the college.

• The Wikipedia article for Jonathan Edwards College also points out that the school still has a statue of a slave holding a sundial, which is in a public area on it's campus (I think that's different than just telling a story about a historical slavery-related event or circumstance, and I feel that statue should be either displayed with an educational plaque, depicting it as an example of racism at the time, or otherwise be removed).

There are many more, but the above are just some examples. School Wikipedia articles mention both their direct connections to slavery and many Civil War events that happened in the immediate area of the schools.

• St. Mary's College in particular refers frequently to St. Mary's City and it's history as a part of it's own history.

• This is actually common, especially among Northeastern colleges and Universities.

• That does not mean that St. Mary's College was responsible for any of that. But St. Mary's College is also not responsible for the birth of religious tolerance, but it claims that as a central inspirational heritage. Why not also claim Alexander Gough and William Gross, two men in St. Mary's City who broke free of slavery (at great risk to their own lives) and then served in the Union Army in order to expand freedom for all.

If you compare these two men to other St. Mary's luminaries like Margaret Brent, or Leonard Calvert, Gross and Gough certainly also qualify as historic St. Mary's City groundbreakers, just as much as Margaret Brent does.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 10:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

By the way, two of the local men who helped to found St. Mary's Female seminary were slave owners. That is a very sad reality, but it does not mean that St. Mary's College today is a bad college.

It is however, an important and poignant piece of history to reflect on.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 22:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

There were other slave owners associated with St. Mary's Female Seminary too. See the book about the history of St. Mary's College, "Monument School of the People". So it is a legitimate part of the history to mention. Plus the school grounds were part of a plantation that lasted more than 150 years. Again, that doesn't make the modern school a bad place, but it is a legitimate history to mention. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 10:25, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You know, I also mentioned so many, many good things about the school-- I wrote most of the (new) article, not just the history section. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 10:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Deciding to include Slavery History in St. Mary's College of Maryland article

When I was looking at what to add to the history section of this article, I had an additional concern and that was-- would it be wrong for me to leave it out?

I worried about being unfair and putting in a history that did not include the African American experience in the area. Would it be wrong to only discuss the White history of the 1600s through the 1800s while leaving out the African American history?

I decided that it would not be right to leave out the African American part of local history while only discussing the White history of the area.

Nevertheless it was not an easy topic, at all.

So I tried, in that context, to find the inspirational stories within the larger sad story of local slavery.

In terms of inspiration, I talked about the the men who joined the Union Army and served, As well as the other men from nearby (especially because they both served together). I felt that was an inspirational angle to take on the subject, which was preferable to just sweeping it under the rug. The same for John Pendleton Kennedy. I never felt that he was ever perfect on race issues. But I felt that it would be wrong to leave his story out.

Also many of the people from the 1800s that did positive things about opposing slavery where nevertheless, not up to 21st Century standards on the issue. Lincoln wasn't, and others weren't either. Looking father back into history, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson come to mind. There is not school that has an association with Washington or Jefferson that does not mention them i8n their official websites. Further they are mentioned in all Wikipedia articles.

So I tried to make discussion of this part of history inspirational where possible in spite of the tragic reality of the institution. I did in one paragraph (the section "Entrenchment") really delve into some of the more sad aspects as well, because I also felt it would not be fair to leave that out. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

My own racial identity-- I don't want to get into that too much, but just to mention it, I have a multiracial background. I come from more than one race, so I feel this issue, as well as think about this issue.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

OK here is more on the school's old (historic) slavery connection.

Dr. Brome, the plantation owner that Alexander Gough and William Gross escaped from, was on the board of trustees of the college as well. He is listed as the schools treasurer in 1858. Not only that, but it say's that his role helped to "revitalize the school".

That doesn't reflect negatively, by any objective measure, on the school today, but it is a part of the history of the school at the time (in 1858).

This article (linked below) talks about this (Brome's role on the Board)., and also describes the plantation as surrounding the school proper (the school, at the time only has a few acres of land). Does it mean St. Mary's College is a bad school in 2014? No, how could it possibly mean that? That was around 154 years ago. But it is a part of the school history. And many other Wikipedia articles about colleges and universities mention that sort of thing.

On the other hand, the school now plays a major role in studying the history of slavery in St. Mary's City, and is developing actual exhibits about this, in partnership with HSMC.

That sounds like a good way to face that part of this history (turn it into something of educational and memorial value, although certainly about a very tragic subject) rather than to just sweep it all under the rug, as was done all over the United States in the old days.

Here is the link about Doctor Brome and the early school.

http://stmaryscity.org/walktogether/index.php/project/st-marys-manor-2/

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Civil War topics on College and University Wikipedia web pages

Many University and College Wikipedia articles have these--

Most common are mentions of the Civil War history of the institution, with many direct links on those articles to the Wikipedia article about the American Civil War.

• In some regions of the country, direct links to the American Civil War Wikipedia article right off of College and University web pages are close to 80% of these articles.

• There are also many such articles, especially in Southern or border state University colleges, with links to specific battles, etc.

• There are many mentions of military Generals, with links to their Wikipedia articles depicting many aspects of their military careers and also in military poses.

• There are a number of College and University articles (from Southern and border state regions) that discuss Army occupations of campus grounds during the Civil War, and even battles that occurred there-- or nearby.

• Many College and University articles have ROTC links to that or other military related pages.

Just to say, these kinds of images and links are common on Wikipedia articles about institutions of higher learning.

I think it would be really sad if all such history was deemed inappropriate for any College or University related website. I think it would be especially sad if, in the process, we stopped honoring our Veterans on these pages, as well as remembering our history.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Then add links, references and even images related to the Revolutionary War, World War II, the Cold War, and on and on...

University and College Wikipedia articles have tons of these...

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Very best to all.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 22:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Civil Rights sections or mentions on College and University Wikipedia articles

Again, these are legion on such articles.

• It's very common for College and University Wikipedia articles to mention the institution's past practices of racial segregation.

• Its common also to find passages or sections on racial disparities at the institution.

• There are many College and University Wikipedia articles that mark the dates when Blacks were first allowed into their institutions and chronicling the time of segregation at the school.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Is a discussion of a school's past a comment on it's present?

Not at all. How is what a school did or did not do, or what happened next to school grounds over 145 years ago, a reflection on what that school is today?

But is a part of the history, and may be learned from.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

History section length

Just getting back to that-- I do feel that it's gotten too long, however.

St. Mary's has a lot of very significant history, and as a "Living memorial" to it's own area history and as a preeminent historical and archeological research institution, that actually derives significantly from the past in order to inform it's modern day mission, it's easy for any such section to grow.

But still, I feel that it has outgrown this article.

Best to all.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

History of St. Mary's College of Maryland

Never got much constructive feedback or suggestions for this article

I understand that people have a right to their opinions about the history section. I'm fine making the changes, based on guesses made by looking at different internet school statements.

I had to kind of guess about some of these concerns, though, and could even be wrong about my guesses.

• Very little feedback or request of me to make adjustments with the article--

If there was dissatisfaction at St. Mary's College of Maryland with this article-- I wish I had been told, though. No one ever gave me any feedback or suggestions, or any opportunity to make corrections-- and a lot of what I added to the article was up here for months.

• As it is widely known, all schools (or businesses) can post comments (here) and ask for changes in the article--

• (Such comments must, however, follow the Wikipedia policy in such posts of "assuming good faith" on the part of other editors-- as doing otherwise would be seen as "pressuring" the article writer).

But simple requests for changes, deletions, additions, can be made by a school employee here, in the talk section.

• They don't even have to be directed at anyone, they can just be general requests.

• Below are several other ways that a college can get help in contributing to an article about itself.

And there are certain classes of college employees that can also directly edit the article (if the school is allowing that, or giving them time for that). *But get more detail there.

Plus Wikipedia has certain areas on it's website where a college can post a request for volunteer editors to come here and make requested changes, or additions or deletions, to the article. And the college can also find a third party editor, on it's own, (with certain stipulations). If I can learn this (which I have, recently, the college can also learn about this, if it wants to.

When I first came to the article--

Most of the (older) posts and edits were largely from school employees or students, so I assumed if I started editing (and posting back her in the Talk section,) that I was going to get input and feedback.

Anyway, what happened for me here was-- if I added something, and never got any input that it was not liked or wanted-- I then assumed that it must have been seen as a) liked or b) maybe not liked, but not seen as important enough to comment about.

Sincerely,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have made adjustments here, however, made on indirect observations (that come very slowly, and almost accidentally) of what (might) be feelings on the school website, and am even trying to "over-do" some of those adjustments, to be safe. But it's all based on guessing / interpreting clues at a distance, no (direct) (constructive-- with solutions offered) feedback.

Anyway, I'm going to make a few more edits along these lines, and then I'm going to be moving on to other projects-- and finish my involvement with this article.

I wish everyone well--

I enjoyed being able to contribute here, the school is really amazing and so is it's history (even though I may have gotten carried away with writing about it-- I think I fell in love with the schools history and so forgot to edited it down the way I could have).

So a few more posts/edits and I'll soon be finished working on St. Mary's College related articles.

Very best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Indirect feedback

To be specific, what I saw was something about "appropriate message for the school".

That's where I first got the idea that maybe the History topics covered here were not all liked. Even though many, many University and College Wikipedia articles do include such topics.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

African-American student enrollment at St. Mary's College of Maryland

I say this respectfully and with best wishes to all--

African-American student enrollment at St. Mary's College dropped in recent years, has been nearly 50% below where it was in 1992.

From 14% in 1992 to just 7% in 2013 (a 50% drop)-- it's up a little from that today, to about 8%. Also I don't know how that will reflect in Fall of 2014 figures.

14% African-American student enrollment in 1992 (at St. Mary's College of Maryland).

Click here: See section entitled "Autonomy Woes" http://www.nacubo.org/Business_Officer_Magazine/Magazine_Archives/April_2004/Trading_Dollars_for_Independence.html

7% African-American student enrollment in 2013 (at St. Mary's College of Maryland).

Click here: http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?s=MD&pg=5&id=163912

There, I said it! I've been almost afraid to say it! (I did mention these facts previously, in the main college article, but I never put them side by side before).

That's right-- the school's African-American population has dropped, a whole lot, (by nearly 50% at St. Mary's College of Maryland) over the last 12 years-- while other minority enrollments have increased.

(I am just boldfacing so that people won't miss this. I wish everybody the very best).

So what the school sometimes calls "diversity" is not reflected in it's African-American student enrollment. I'm sorry, but that's not being "mean to the school" that's just a simple fact.

Please, please don't accuse me of being "mean to the school" for simply telling the truth. I wish everyone the very best, but I just wanted to share this where it wouldn't be missed. (I did put these facts in the article a while ago, but never side-by-side).

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Please also read this--

To be fair-- the school has long talked about, and is working on, it's own issues with racial disparity (regarding the African-American enrollment, which has trended differently than the rest of minority enrollment).

First African American College President Appointed, 2014

And-- there are also plenty of news sources that show that the school is working hard to address that (and has been for some time). Not to mention the school Board of Trustees 100% backing of hiring it's new President, Doctor Tuajuanda Jordan, who is a person of African-American heritage. And the school has been taking many other steps as well.

Funding for "first generation to college" students affects African American populations disproportionally--

Not to make excuses for the school, but there are also a lot of news sources out there that show that adequate funding for first generation college students is actually one of the very biggest issues behind lagging African-American enrollment-- Ivy league schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc) which are St. Mary's Colleges competitors, have bigger endowment and can offer more scholarships.

And it is no secret that the state of Maryland has to come around more here-- it likes having a public honors college, it likes to require St. Mary's College to be the best-- but the state has not stepped up with the funding that could better enhance "first generation to college" funding,

It is getting better, though. The state, for example, helped to lower St. Mary's College's tuition in the Spring of 2014.

Again, lots of signs of progress with more progress coming.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

School's internal race-relations--

It's fair to say that the school has been laying the groundwork for improvement on African-American enrollment disparity for years.

There are also many sources that say that the St. Mary's College internal race-relationsl environment (for those already at the school) is very positive (overall, no place is perfect on that issue, but overall it's rated as very good). The school has also always been known for being a warm, friendly, place and that factors across various relations between people of various backgrounds and heritages at the school as well.

Anyway, because historic segregation (and its after effects) has only come down in the last generation and a half-- (many Maryland schools were not fully desegregated until the early 1970's)-- a higher percentage of African -American students are "first generation to college" (not all, but a higher percentage).

And all "first generations" college students (White, Black, Latino, Asian) are more vulnerable to high tuition and smaller endowments.

So anyway, I'm not saying that it's the old problem of "stark racism" is causing this-- as much as it is learning how to get better at reaching out to all first generation college students. And securing more funding, which is tough, but must be done.

This issue has also come up at many other schools. And some of this is certainly the state of Maryland needing to step up on this issue.

But St. Mary's College of Maryland really also needs to step up too, which it has been trying to do, and still is working to do so.

OK, so anyway-- St. Mary's College of Maryland is not nearly diverse enough (yet, so far)-- as you sometimes see in the publications.

Although it is good that the publications talk about diversity, that is a good thing.

And the school is certainly taking meaningful steps. It is certainly working in the right direction.

Again, best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

What percentage of the population of the State of Maryland are people of African-American heritage?

30 percent. Nearly one third of the entire population of the state.

7 goes into 30 how many times?

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

.

St. Mary's City and College history: debate over validity of "tradition representations" of St. Mary's City history

There is a debate underway among researchers about the validity of some of the traditional representations of Maryland (St. Mary's City) history.

The traditional representations tend to be thought of as the St. Mary's City "firsts" .

• First place where religious freedom was established,
• First place where a Woman sought the right to vote.
• (Possibly, historical evidence is not yet conclusive) first place where a person of African American heritage was elected to a legislative assembly in which he voted (Mathias Da Sousa)
• (Ect, there are more "firsts" as well...

In other words, these are some of the traditional ways that the history of St. Mary's City (and by extension, Maryland) have been presented.

They are "traditional representations of Maryland history".

So some researchers and scholars want to replace (get rid of, or change) these historical narratives "traditional representations of Maryland history" with other counter-nattatives. They feel, either that there are better alternative interpretations of such events, or that the "traditional representation" of such events even if accurate, sometimes miss a larger context.

This is an academic debate, as there are many. At this point, this view is the "challenging" or " (numeric) minority" view,

However-- minority academic views have, in many cases, later become the majority view. And sometime they don't.

I personally feel that the St. Mary's City "firsts" are valid and important to remember, that we don't need to replace them. And a lot of other people do too. But the other side of the argument is represented by serious, highly noted academics.

They want to offer alternative interpretations, which is fine-- but I can't evaluate those without knowing all the details.

But I also do believe in changing some of the the traditional representations of St. Mary's City history.

I believe that it used to especially leave out (sweep under the rug) African-American history. So local African-American history is one place where I think there does need to be more "counter-narrative" (more dropping of the old Euro-centric narrative) of St. Mary's City and Maryland. (Especially left out has been 1690-1865, where you used to never hear very much about the 175 years of slavery in St. Mary's City. You used to only hear about the "white" history).

And that is beginning to happen, that's also what I did in the history section, I decided to contribute to that change in the narrative. Even though I disagree with abandoning many of the other traditional representations.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Getting ready to move on

I'm going to be putting in a few footnotes and then cleaning up here and there and then I'm going to be finished working on this article (and the "History of SMC" article too).

I wish the very best to all.

One thing that is clear is that the school is working hard to lay the groundwork for change (has been true for some time). That holds great promise for the future.

Change doesn't always happen overnight, but the foundations are definitely being laid.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Someone removed the St. Mary's Way section in the article

This user removed the "St. Mary's Way" from the article.

(Following the link below, The editing user is the one on the right)

Two versions of the article are shown, the one on the right is the "new edit".

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St._Mary%27s_College_of_Maryland&diff=620066172&oldid=620038542

I'm putting "The St. Mary's Way" back into the article.

By the way, if you click on the users name, you can see their Wikipedia profile page. Clicking on their "Talk" tab shows public conversations.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 05:15, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

• • On the other hand-- I am the person who first added "The St. Mary's Way" to the article in the first place,

I also wrote most of the 2014 version of the article (of what was added since since early this year-- including the majority of the body below the history section and the vast majority of the supporting footnotes)--

• That includes countless positive facts about the school.

• It also included adding hundreds of carefully researched and added footnotes.

However, I couldn't in good conscience leave out the drop in African-American student enrollment.

And in the history section, I felt I had to tell the African-American history of the area, and not just the White story.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Two sides to every story: The St. Mary's Way

One important thing about the "St. Mary's Way" is that it also means that we don't judge someone until we know both sides of the story.

Many points that I have posted above (here in this talk section) demonstrate why this is so important--

Because things may look one way, but unless one knows the entire story, including all sides of the story, it really isn't right to make assumptions about people.

That would totally go against the St. Mary's Way.

Until someone has the whole story, they can't know everything about a situation, and it would not be fair to make assumptions about others.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 09:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying that's what anyone was doing. But just wanted to make those points in case there was such talk.

And even if there was, that's fine, people are allowed to be human, but if so, I'd like to respectfully and humbly ask that people consider the above points, about getting all sides of the story, before making assumptions.

Appreciatively, Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi,

Just a quick note. Someone else did an edit on the photo links today. That's fine. I'm pretty sure the photos did have the needed settings, but I am not attached, it's fine.

There is no reason why the article has to have these photos over any others.

My earlier point was to encourage any interested parties to edit the article any way they like. So it's actually good to see someone coming in to make changes--

No problem, best of luck evolving the article any way that is preferred!

I have come to learn that just letting go of things when others see it a different way makes good sense. I take no offense at any differing perceptions or opinions.

People have a right to their opinions (in all regards) and that's all fine with me too.

If I guessed right that some at the school didn't like the article, that's fine too.

One point though, any future edits that you see in the article are not mine.

Very best to everyone!

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 04:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

References

This article has several references that are just "bare bones" urls, which tend to create a problem known as "link rot". At some future point, the referenced website moves files to another location or archive leaving us with a dead link and no easy way of finding the material. Folklore1 (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

This page should not be speedy deleted because...

This page should not be speedily deleted because... ( St. Mary's College of Maryland/Archive 1 is now in use and set up properly, as a working archive) --Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 06:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Archived

The Talk page was getting overfilled so I decided to archive it. Wikipedia doesn't allow deleting Talk page contents, instead they may be archived when over-filled.

Anyway this gives the page a fresh start.

I've wrapped up my editing here on the Talk page too. I did also make some last clarifications in the article while I was at it.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 11:33, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

One last note on photos

One more note: there were alumni who contributed by donating many of the photos seen in the the article from their old Flickr accounts.

(We worked together on those by email).

The rest of the photos were already listed as being in the "public domain" and therefore already available for re-use on the Internet.

There was other editing on the site as well, going back through February and I don't know who those editors were.

Again, best to all.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if this clarification is needed, but I wanted to quickly add that I made this post (above-- on "photos")^^ in order to to avoid taking credit for work or contributions made by others (photos or writing) to the article.

That doesn't change my feelings that anyone should edit this article any way they want, and that any changes made by others are fine. Honestly I don't care if this article, or the other college or HSMC related articles are totally reshaped (or not), either way, doesn't matter.

I was just trying (in the above photo section) not to take credit for the contributions of others. Yes I contributed a lot to the article, but others contributed as well, that's all I was trying to say. I didn't want credit for the work of others.

I also want to say I haven't heard from anyone else that they feel that the article absolutely has to be edited in any particular way (editorially) either, there are sometimes Wikipedia formatting requirements that come up, but that's a different issue (sometimes brought up by reviewing Wikipedia editors).

Wikipedia Talk pages are for opinions and discussion of editing, I've expressed mine already and have no further interest in the editorial direction of the article.

I have no hard feelings about this either, it's completely fine, it's not important to me. People have a right to their opinions and people also have the right to be human.

This is Wikipedia, where articles are often changed around, people also have a right to disagree.

Whether the article is changed totally, partially or not at all-- it's all good. I happily and with all best wishes release all editorial interest in any of the college or HSMC articles.

I guess I've added a few more posts than I expected to, but they have all been towards just wrapping up any last issues. The article is a big complicated work and each of the "late posts" have just been to help resolve any lose ends. All towards the end of moving on.

Very best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:40, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Archived

The Talk page was getting overfilled so I decided to archive it. Wikipedia doesn't allow deleting Talk page contents, instead they may be archived when over-filled.

Anyway this gives the page a fresh start.

I've wrapped up my editing here on the Talk page too. I did also make some last clarifications in the article while I was at it.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 11:33, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to archive this last post (above^^) soon as well, with best wishes to all,

I also added one last note (in the archives) (it turns out notes can be made there, I was previously mistaken).

That note is just below the "Photos post" at the bottom (in the archives-- see the "Archives Box" and then click on "1")--

It just clarifies (if even needed), that the "Photo's" post was just to avoid me taking credit for any other contributors writing or photo's--

I don't mind at all how the article gets changed editorially in the future. And if there ever was any difference of opinion (that part isn't even clear) that's all fine with me too. (The "Photos" post was just to avoid my taking credit for anyone elses contributions, either images or writing). I haven't checked, but would really be surprised if anyone else who contributed to the article since January 2014 would care either.

I have no hard feelings about any of this either, it's completely fine, it's not important to me. People have a right to their opinions and people also have the right to be human.

Whether the article is changed totally, partially or not at all-- it's all good. I happily and with all best wishes release all editorial interest in any of the college or HSMC articles.

So anyway, I'll have my last posts cleared off of the "Talk" page here (after this has been up for a little bit).

It's taken a little longer than I expected to wrap up, but it's a big complicated article and I had wanted to make sure any loose ends were clarified (in the spirit of moving on).

Very best to all Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 20:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Clearing last post from the Talk page over here to the archive.

All the best!

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 09:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

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Antebellum

Antebellum is a disambiguation page. Links to it get caught by User:DPL bot and need to be fixed, because they violate WP:INTDAB and reappear in the list of 30,000-odd errors which it picks up. My WP:GF attempt to correct the error was reverted, so that the link now again points to the DAB page. This problem needs to be be resolved, somehow, without an edit war. I haven't got the time to give this one special attention. Narky Blert (talk) 01:11, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Feedback/Improving article

This article provides a good overview of the College and its programs. I think the inclusion of a little bit of the area's history is beneficial, as the school is tied very much to the history of St. Mary's City being the first colony, and for this reason the college's campus itself is very much blended with Historic St. Mary's. The article does have many "newer" things included: such as the campus' NudiGreens tradition, started only two years ago, and things like WISH house. It is lacking in a couple important additions, however. Information should be added about Anne Arundel Hall, the new academic building on campus. A Bachelor in Science (BS) degree has just been added as an alternative to the traditional BA degree offered by the college, which I think is an important factor to include. The article does a fairly good job at putting forth an inclusive voice- it speaks to minority representation on campus, not only in numbers and ratios of students attending, aid options, but also in terms of organizations, clubs, etc. which support and promote their voices on campus. Some new resources, such as the 'Rainbow Resource Room' and 'Diversity and Inclusion Fellow' could be included, highlighting new steps the college has taken to support LGBTQ+ students and students of color. Ariellegross (talk) 15:31, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

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• Corrected formatting/usage for http://m.somdnews.com/article/20130327/NEWS/130329127/1044/news%26source%3DRSS%26template%3Dgazette
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140512213356/http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/399 to http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/399
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140512213356/http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/399 to http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/399
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140326125712/https://stmaryscity.org/research/st-johns-site/ to http://stmaryscity.org/research/st-johns-site/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140322001138/http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/25944 to http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/25944
• Added archive https://archive.is/20070528123615/http://admissions.smcm.edu/pages/exp_tour/exp_tour_low.asp?section=1&page=20 to http://admissions.smcm.edu/pages/exp_tour/exp_tour_low.asp?section=1&page=20
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140826191723/http://www.smcm.edu/anthropology/historic_smc.html to http://www.smcm.edu/anthropology/historic_smc.html
• Added archive https://archive.is/20140405021549/http://www.somdnews.com/article/20130710/NEWS/130719825/1115/chesapeake-writers-x2019-conference-held-in-st-mary-x2019-s-county&template=southernMaryland to http://www.somdnews.com/article/20130710/NEWS/130719825/1115/chesapeake-writers-x2019-conference-held-in-st-mary-x2019-s-county%26template%3DsouthernMaryland

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Notable news section

i saw no mentioned of the notable event of the mold remediation preformed in 2012, where students were moved from thier dorms to hotels, and then later to a cruise ship parked at the docks. This event was the subject of a number of news articles. Jeran (talk) 23:31, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Diversity Spam

What a blatant spamming and undue weight of diversity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.3.138.230 (talk) 12:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

"SafeRide" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect SafeRide. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 6#SafeRide until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm _Talk 06:01, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 7 external links on St. Mary's College of Maryland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140313133644/http://www.stmaryscity.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Chapel-Reconstruction.pdf to https://stmaryscity.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Chapel-Reconstruction.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071026055103/http://www.smcm.edu:80/Library/index.html to http://www.smcm.edu/Library/index.html/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140228071911/http://www.smcm.edu/studenttrustee/ to http://www.smcm.edu/studenttrustee/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080705044534/http://www.smcm.edu/econ/OmicronDeltaEpsilon.htm to http://www.smcm.edu/econ/OmicronDeltaEpsilon.htm/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140922185613/http://smcm.edu/history/honors.html to http://www.smcm.edu/history/honors.html/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080704153713/http://www.smcm.edu/posc/PiSigmaAlpha.htm to http://www.smcm.edu/posc/PiSigmaAlpha.htm/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081202174346/http://www.smcm.edu/psyc/PSICHI/Psichi.htm to http://www.smcm.edu/psyc/PSICHI/Psichi.htm/

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