Talk:Steve McNair/Archive 1

Archive 1

Retirement

"Announced" his retirement is correct. He has stated that he is considering it; many feel that he does not want to go out on such a negative note and will in fact attempt to play at least one more season. Rlquall 04:12, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Roster bonus

It says he is due a $50,000,000 roster bonus in 2006. Shouldn't it be leik 50,000 or 5 mil? fifty million seems kinda unlikely. --198.102.62.250 20:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

$50m is correct. He'll either renegotiate it or be released. --Dan121377 20:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

the $50m is an option to extend, he's already contracted to play in 2006. 68.34.203.200 00:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Getting ahead of ourselves?

We know he's gone, but right now he still appears on the Titans roster. The information should reflect that until the release becomes official. 208.47.17.91 06:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Retirement is official!

He filed the paperwork, so you can stop being a Wikinazi.

Prove it.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 00:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

You like the Miami Dolphins. I don't have to prove anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unsterblich856 (talk • contribs) 08:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[[1]] At what point would one consider him really retired? --Blackbox77 (talk) 13:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Tone

Who wrote this, his brother? It's too much like a 3rd person POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.95.247 (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

His brother? I was thinking more like his mother. This reads like a highly embellished short story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.29.150 (talk) 20:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

AGREED... this article needs to be TOTALLY rewritten. Unless we rename it It Took Balls: The Steve McNair Story. Drcwright (talk) 05:34, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it needs some shortening and major tone changes. I might do it later. Well, probably not actually. Yesitsnot (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

How does this page work. How should I know what to write on this page. Somebody help me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.79.146.64 (talk) 14:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Gang member?

I am here in California and my brother said he had gang affiliations I just want to verify those comments. I don't think that he did but my brother seems to think that he did. let me know on here just to either shut him up or prove he is right. I really think that he was brought up right.(75.48.36.47 (talk) 21:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC))

Non-verifiable, not even worth the time. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 06:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Trade to Baltimore takes 1/2 the article?

McNair has an 11 year career with the Titans/Oilers, and the trade to Baltimore takes up half the article? Does this really need a "timeline" of the trade?

I know, he has an illustrious 11 year career with the titans, but its summed up in 2 paragraphs, and his ravens 1 year career takes up 1/2 the article?LazyManJackson 20:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)...

One reason might be that wikipedia wasn't around/popular when he had his "illustrious 11-year career", but it was and there was someone updating it when he was at Baltimore. It's not laziness, just no one has put it in. --86.146.48.11 (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

STEVE MCNAIR WAS A MEMBER OF THE HONORARY OMEGA PSI PHI FRATERNITY.

Find a source and it's gold. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 05:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Death

Breaking news on twitter is reporting he died. Should this be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.194.181 (talk) 20:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

My change re: his death got reverted, here's a source: http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=10643916&Call=Email&Format=Text The page is protected now so I can't make it myself.

BNO is also reporting it on their web site but fails to give a source. --Megyn (talk) 20:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Another source: http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=10643962&Call=Email&Format=Text —Preceding unsigned comment added by AmazingSyco (talk • contribs) 20:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The article says "murder-suicide" when the source cited says "double homicide". Krenzo (talk) 20:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Now it says murder homocide, which is just redundant. And misspelled.

Homicide isn't necessarily a murder. SpartanSWAT10 (talk) 02:17, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know of a source that says when today he was found dead? That might be something to add in if we can find a source. DinosaurRAWRZ (talk) 20:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The source was updated. When I cited it, it said murder-homicide.CH52584 (talk) 21:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

CNN reporting him to be found dead. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 21:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, police believe he was killed in a double homicide[2]. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 21:06, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey guys here's a source saying murder-suicide.

http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92323&catid=2 Danman1202 (talk) 21:10, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

That was the original report from the local media. They are now saying double homicide.CH52584 (talk) 21:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest no potential determination be posted till we are absolutely positively sure which one it is and have corroborating reports. Not to mention one that reported murder-suicide retracted their story and posted double-homicide. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 21:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

If it helps, Nashville's News Channel 5 says that the incident happened near 2nd South & Lea Avenue. [3] DinosaurRAWRZ (talk) 21:09, 4 July 2009. (UTC)

Perhaps it should just be worded for now saying that he and another woman were found dead at this moment and when the investigation is concluded it can be changed to reflect their findings. Danman1202 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Wikipedia is about Verifiability and there certainly is a lack of that here. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 21:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I've read reports that his wife died and yet wikipedia reports that he is survived by his wife, although the footnote points to a source that says nothing of the kind. 173.48.138.219 (talk) 21:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I would remove this as well for now. We cannot be sure that she was not the unidentified woman killed. Danman1202 (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is every article locked shut right after someone dies? I live in Nashville and could update this article since it is all over the news here but of course,I can't do that because it is locked. I guess you can only edit if your a admin. --70.156.0.160 (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

They are locked for reasons. This page is only semi-protected so it's editable by users and admins alike. People like to target pages, especially those of recently dead persons, for vandalism. False information is also easily spread during these times. Such is the reason for Page protection. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 22:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Use the {{Editsemiprotected}} template and someone will edit it for you, or you can get an account instead. However, you will still not be able to edit semi-protected pages until your account is 4 days old and has at least 10 edits. Griffinofwales (talk) 22:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't hand me that "semi" stuff! The article is now locked!!! This is why Wikipedia sucks now. I NEVER HAD AND NEVER WILL SIGN UP FOR AN ACCOUNT SINCE THAT IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL SPIRIT OF WIKI! The page is usually locked with false information and EVERY TIME someone dies some stupid person with an account rushes over and reverts the CORRECT information without even checking the facts then the page is locked. 76.241.79.50 (talk) 23:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, maybe the person isn't stupid but it's a stupid thing. I say again I will not be forced to sign up for an account now or ever!76.241.79.50 (talk) 00:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Not in the spirit of wiki? Shall we go back to signing our post manually as well? Well, that's not a fair comparison but to say that protecting Wikipedia from unverifiable material or original research as well as allowing vandalism to spread rampantly without protection and expect others to fix it... That's not the Wikipedia I signed up for. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 01:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

No, it is not STUPID. Let me tell you that having spent 15 years in the Army, with two tours of duty in Iraq, it's an automatic assumption that first reports regarding an incident are often WRONG. If you haven't paid much attention, the TV guys are more interested in being FIRST TO REPORT, regardless of how inaccurate. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so having "real time" information is not as important as having correct information. If you want to have access to semiprotected pages, quit whining and sign up. Nobody's twisting your arm, but IF you want access, that's what you're going to have to do. And please spare us your righteous indignation. It ain't about you. Caisson 06 (talk) 01:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Condolences to all. 76.241.79.50 (talk) 00:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The article is not locked, it is semi-protected, which means that IP addresses and non-autoconfirmed accounts are not allowed to edit the article. If you want the article fixed, use the template I showed you. The majority of articles here at Wikipedia are open for all to edit them. However, to protect articles from vandalism, articles are semi-protected temporarily. Griffinofwales (talk) 01:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

And rightfully so, considering every single death article draws anyone and everyone. You notice no one starts complaining about wikipedia policies until someone dies? Then suddenly everyone wants to edit. How about making an account before someone dies? The purpose of it is to prevent unverifiable material from being spread and to prevent vandalism as is seen in every other death that has occurred. I'm happy that an admin had the sense of urgency and logic to fully lock down the Michael Jackson article after he was reported to be in the hospital. You couldn't even get on wikipedia. Imagine trying to correct information between database server dropouts and edit conflicts to fix disinformation and vandalism. We saw that once before. Her name was Anna Nicole Smith. I don't care to see it again, personally. 01:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Sad news. This comment may not be relevant very long, but the "Not seeking suspects" line is misleading in the context of the article. This is police speak for not having an idea of who is responsible--people are "persons of interest" or "subjects" at this stage. It doesn't imply that they think aren't investigating, or think it was a murder-suicide, which is the impression I think you'd get from reading the sentence in the article. 71.139.180.57 (talk) 03:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Cease the speculation

It seems every time I come on, someone has added that it was a double homicide or a murder-suicide based on, not the police statements as they have made no determination yet, but the determinations of newspapers and a journalist who probably saw one to many episodes of CSI. Seriously people, some of you want to ask what wikipedia is about? Let's start with Verifiability for starters. Cease to add speculative material till facts are out. When the police say it, then fine. But as long as it is unverified, I'm about as inclined to leave it as I am to read The Sun; And as of 5 minutes prior to this post, the AP has it as follows:

“ NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Former NFL quarterback Steve McNair, who led the famous Tennessee Titans' drive that came a yard short of forcing overtime in the 2000 Super Bowl, was found dead Saturday with multiple gunshot wounds, including one to the head. Police said a pistol was discovered near the body of a woman also shot dead in a downtown condominium.

Nashville police spokesman Don Aaron identified the woman as 20-year-old Sahel Kazemi, whom he called a "friend" of McNair's. She had a single gunshot wound to the head.

Police said the 36-year-old McNair was found on the sofa in the living room, and Kazemi was very close to him on the floor. Aaron said the gun was not "readily apparent" when police first arrived.

Autopsies were planned for Sunday.

”

You'll understand if I'm more willing to go on "not 'readily apparent'" for the time being than no less than a few dozen conflicting news articles of "double-homicide" and "murder-suicide". So much for Journalistic integrity.... ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 05:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Evidence suggests that former NFL quarterback Steve McNair was killed in a murder-suicide with Sahel Kazemi, a 20-year old woman he had been dating for several months, media outlets are reporting.

Yet, later in that very article...

“ Additionally, Nashville police are not actively looking for suspects. Police have not yet called the deaths the result of a murder-suicide. Autopsies are scheduled for today, after which an official cause of death is likely to be named. ”

Enough Said. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 16:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Policies and content

Everyone please read our Policies on adding content to Wikipedia. Failure to do so will result in your additions being removed. The first and main thing here is proper sourcing and citation. Read WP:Reliable sources, WP:VERIFY and WP:Citing sources. Additionally read WP:BLP and do not add any content against this policy, even if it's not about McNair but about some alleged girlfriend. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 23:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 05:35, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Female was the victim?

"On July 4, 2009, McNair was found dead of multiple gunshot wounds, including one to the head,[16][17] along with a female victim".

So the guy shot the woman with one shot and then killed himself with multiple gunshots? Sounds logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.71.48 (talk) 13:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• They both could have been victims, of course. Until more official word appears, that's all we can go on. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 13:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

That's why people need to stop adding "double-homicide" and "murder-suicide" when the authorities themselves have not even said who is to blame. Guess what that means? No "The wife did it" either. Any additions of the previous 3 shall be reverted on sight as vandalism. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 15:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• McNair's wife will not be blamed, she is black. More likely Kazemi's white ex-boyfriend, Keith Norfleet, will be blamed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.9.247 (talk) 06:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Yup, can't agree more. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Appealing to "the authorities" doesn't change what reliable sources are reporting; Further, the Nashville PD spokesman has already said that they are not seeking any suspects in this case. If there was even a scintilla of a chance that this was a homicide, don't you think they'd be seeking suspects? The police don't have to say murder-suicide for it to be so. Enough other sources are reporting on it. At the very least, include it as "The Tennessean said that..." There has to be some compromise between fully reporting the facts and sticking our head in the sand, doesn't there? --SSBohio 16:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Like you said, reporting the facts. As wikipedia is about Verifiability, a reliable source speculating on the cause of death is inherently neither reliable nor verifiable. Now a compromise could be reached in that one could say that media outlets are speculating it to be a murder-suicide while police have not commented on the circumstances of the death. I will admit that my thoughts lean personally towards it being murder-suicide based on the surrounding evidence made available to the press, but I also have a nice big red button that also says "Objectivity". ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 16:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) As your comments about me have been personally insulting, I'm electing not to address you directly. However, the fact that the newspaper of record in Nashville describes the case as an apparent murder-suicide should carry some weight, even if only to report it as what multiple publications are saying. Backing up this description is the fact that the police have said they are not seeking any suspects in the case. The objective way to handle this is to report the fact of what reliable sources are saying; Attempting to paint over the situation is far from objective. --SSBohio 16:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I make no attempts to personally insult people. Sorry if you took it as such. I am also fully against censorship of any manner, but I do have something of a strict personal standard when it comes to journalism. Blame it on being a freelancer. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 16:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

To refresh your recollection: You said I "can't read" and you described my edit as "vandalism." Both are insulting to me personally. You follow it up with a classic non-apology apology: "sorry if you took it as such." Until you can be sorry for what you said, rather than for how I took it, we're at an impasse. Using such attacks to gain the advantage in a content dispute is anathema to the principles of Wikipedia. Since this is a personal issue between us, please return to my talk page so we can continue our discussion. --SSBohio 17:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I made the edit, I think it is satisfactory. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 16:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a good consensus edit until enouh facts accumulate to meet everyone's standard of proof. --SSBohio 16:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Removing other editors' comments is highly incivil, so I've reverted Evilgohan2's attempt to do so. --SSBohio 17:29, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Struck out my own unnecessary comment above. Please accept my apology. --SSBohio 19:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

That was not a revert, that was a move. There's a difference. Stop taking every little thing so personally. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 18:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

On another note, that was something that could just have easily been posted in the edit page summary. Who's the one making personal attacks, again? ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 18:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

While you added the content elsewhere, you deleted it from here. Community consensus is that you shouldn't do that. You're responsible for your own actions, not anyone else. --SSBohio 19:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll tell you what, because this has gotten out of hand and because I no longer wish to engage in these childish games, I'm backing away from this article entirely. I will no longer make edits on this talk page or your talk page from the point of this comment. Have fun. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 18:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm concerned with your past conduct, not where you choose to edit in the future. Judging from your contribution history, you are a worthy contributor to the project. Nevertheless, your conduct is an issue. If you & I can't resolve this, then I have little other choice than to pursue it through channels. I'd much prefer to bury the hatched & be done with it, but the decision whether to take responsibility for your words and deeds or not is up to you, not me. --SSBohio 19:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

He was murdered

He was murdered. It was confirmed today in the Tennessean by Metro police spokesperson Don Aaron- http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090705/NEWS03/90705014/Autopsy+shows+McNair+was+murdered Of course,I can't add this because the article is locked.--70.156.0.160 (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I've added it. -- Austin512 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The female (Sahel Kazemi) that died with McNair is Iranian American according to her former boyfriend Keith Norfleet.page 2..."Norfleet said he moved to Nashville with Kazemi from Jacksonville, Fla., where her family lives. She was raised by a sister. Her mother, a native of Iran, was murdered when Kazemi was 9, Norfleet said...", [4] Also, her facebook account has many Iranian names as friends. Does it hurt to expose her nationality? I think we should add this into the article.--119.73.1.247 (talk) 04:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't hurt but I don't see why it's so relevant that it just must be included. It has no relevancy to the death at all, to be honest. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 04:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

The idea is so that we help the confused readers know who she was before they start searching elsewhere. Her name stands out too much. It's obviously not a typical American name.--119.73.1.247 (talk) 04:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

WP is fascinated about people's race and ethnicity; deplorable really... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 05:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

What's an "American" name anyway? Kazemi's a much more "American" name than "ArglebargleIV" or "119.73.1.247". Ethnicity makes no difference in the article, and I wouldn't care if readers had to look somewhere else, it shouldn't go here. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 11:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Why are people becoming ignorant about all this? Sahel Kazemi was born in Iran and her name is Middle Eastern. Someone with names such as John, Joe, Mike, Steve, Tony, Robert, etc., are American names. I'm surprised you don't know this. Someone with a name like Ali Baba is most likely a Middle Easterner. I mean it doesn't really f... matter if her ethnicity is added or nor, at least it's revealed in news. The fact remains that a 20 yr old Iranian woman killed this American black guy. Hahaha that's funny aint it? Hey and I'm from Pakistan and I find it funny. I also find it funny that I am teaching you westerners a thing or two.--119.73.2.103 (talk) 13:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm just an idealistic and cynical sort, I guess. (And American, by the way, but I have no real way of proving that any more than you have about your claim of being Pakistani.) Idealistic because I think that if you come over here, and you're part of America, then you're American and your name is American. What you are calling "American" is really "Standard European", tending towards Anglo-Saxon. Cynical because usually (although not necessarily in this case) when somebody gets insistent about mentioning the ethnic background of a suspected wrongdoer in an article, there's usually a nasty ulterior motive. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 15:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, those who disagree with you aren't ignorant -- we just don't see the relevance. If you think that we're ignorant -- well, explain to us why it's relevant. Try to cure our "ignorance". -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't really see why her race would be an issue, or why it should be included in the article at all. Kimu 15:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

If the valid sources report it, then it's fair game. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Just because it's reported elsewhere doesn't mean it has to be reported here. Clearly, if we include it it needs to be sourced, and we can't say something contradictory to what a reliable source says, but there's no obligation to report it here. Sourced + verifiable is necessary, but not sufficient -- editorial judgment is also required. I'm saying that editorial judgment (at least my editorial judgment) is that it doesn't belong here. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 18:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, seeing as how (at this point in time) her race is not a crucial piece to the murder investigation, and subsequently is not advantageous (but nor is it disadvantageous) to the article. Kimu 18:43, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it comes down to a struggle of POV-pushers who want it included, and POV-pushers who want it excluded. So there ya are. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

the fact of the mateer is that ain accordance with WP:BLP & WP:CRIME, we have no grounds for declaring Steve McNair a "murderer". he has yet to be convicted in court or even formaly charged/indighted by the police as a murder/suicide so he should not be called a murderer. and yes blp does apply even though he has suicided Smith Jones (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Uh, the police are saying McNair was the victim, not a suicide, not the suspected killer (which is believed by the police at the moment to be his girlfriend). -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

after the oj simpson debalce not everyone will mkae that disctinction. i am glad you live ina perfect world but in the real world people see football player and murder in the same sentence they will think oj simpson and assume that mcnair was murderer. if we can use less loaded language such as "lost his life" or "passed away" that would be more encyclopedia as per WP:MOS <-- the manual of style our official typocrgraphical manual which dictats how we must phrase and reinstate certain vocabularies. Smith Jones (talk) 15:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Words almost fail me here -- and probably most people here wish they had. :-)
Simpson wasn't shot or stabbed the night when his ex-wife died. McNair was shot multiple times. We are not calling him a murderer -- he was the one who was killed, and the article says he is not a suspect, largely because he was shot multiple times, presumably by someone else. We can't call Kazemi a murderer, but we can say that the police are looking at her as the probable suspect, but there isn't going to be a trial of her either, because she's dead too. "Killed" is a proper way to describe McNair, since the coroner's report called his death a homicide -- actually, since the coroner did say that, "murdered" probably is more proper than just "killed". Don't invent BLP violations where they aren't even hinted at. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 16:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

i understand that and rest assured that i have no objectiosn to the use of the word "murdered" as well as "killed". I just dont want us making criminal cases before the police finish their inquries. thats not our job and its important that we dont rush ahead or try to predict future press releases. we should stick strictl to the text of our sources. And PLEASE do not drag in "invent BLP violations" i never once refered to BLp in my previous post. I was speaking of solely technical allegations such as WP:MOS (NOTTT WP:BLP). I merely propose internal consistency (as per WP:RETAIN) & clearness. I am sorry i f you misinterpreted my request but i hope i have cleared it up furhter so that we can proceed., Smith Jones (talk) 16:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure where I read the BLP stuff from. Need sleep, and I apologize for misreading that. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

and please, iranian is a simple descirptor. i dont know what kind of politicaly correct stuff is being used to bannish any description of a human being. she is not being accused because she was iranian, it is merely a descriptior that has been used in COUNTLESS primary and secondary sources to describe her, just as she is described as female and given her name. if she had been white this debate would have NEVER taken place liberalism at work Smith Jones (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I would have been against describing her as "white" if she were Caucasian. I'm sorry, I just don't see the point in that part of the description, as per undue weight guidelines. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually I came to this page for the sole purpose of finding out her 'ethnic background.' No, seriously I did. We were debating whether it was Turkish, Arabic, or persian. I said Persian and it looks like I win. yeah for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.221.242 (talk) 22:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

thos is precsiely the purpose of wikipedia to provide verifiable and factual nad relaisic informaiton about its subject. why even mention her if we cant include all the details about her that we have that are relevant to her role in this case.

and tot he anonyomous editor, i would like to request if you would like to donate some of the money you won on your bet to the Wikimedia Foundation since we were the ones who got you the money in the first place and you should support Wikipedia if you want to. Thanks for stopping by and i am glad we were able to help!! Smith Jones (talk) 15:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

How is her (or his) ethnicity "relevant to her role in this case"? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 16:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

i was adressing the anonymous editor on a personal matter sorry if you got confused Smith Jones (talk) 16:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

So you were, I really misread that. I've struck out my response as being irrelevant. Thanks for pointing that out to me. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with ArglebargleIV's statment that "Ethnicity makes no difference in the article". Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

(deindent) I've reworded the phrase "ruled to be a homicide" in the lead, because by definition rulings come from a court or similar authority. The Police have stated they consider it a homicide, but they don't issue a ruling. I've also removed the "investigations are currently ongoing" fragment, as this is inevitable (a homicide two days ago is certainly still the subject of an investigation) and phrases like "currently ongoing" date too easily and shouldn't routinely be included in encyclopedia articles. I think these are fairly minor changes, just raising it here given the overall debate. Euryalus (talk) 22:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

thank you!! :D I have corrected your rewording. You are welcome. Smith Jones (talk) 03:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, no you didn't - your recent edits were to entirely different sections of the article. This one also introduces unsourced peacock words - "and is widely considered an all-time legend." As the relevant style guideline says, instead of telling the reader that a subject is important, please use facts to show the subject's importance. Euryalus (talk) 04:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

you are certianly entitled to your percepton of Mr Mcnairs talent but be careful that you arent seen as possibly belitiling this mans accomplishments so soon after his death. currenylt ehre is a mention of his being the Titans alltime leading passer, which is further unattributed. should this be stripped a well? should we strip all mentions to his football career? I can see where you are coming from and i apologize if i oversrtepped, but sometimes we rigidly adhere to "rules' like WP:PEACOCK which are guideliknes to writing rather than rigid, unyielding, inflexible, intrasnigent rules that cannot have any expections.s i conunter with WP:IAR to include some logical conclusions once I found a source, if you agree with me, and if we are can working this Smith Jones (talk) 20:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Articles aren't designed to belittle or applaud anyone - they're to document neutrally-presented information which can be verified from reliable sources. If a reliable source described McNair as an "all-time legend", we might be able to include it int he article with appropriate attribution. But absent that its just our opinion he was an all-time legend, and our personal opinions, alas, aren't notable.

On a related point, to quote this, "ignore all rules" does not mean that every action is justifiable. It is neither a trump card nor a carte blanche. A rule-ignorer must justify how their actions improve the encyclopedia if challenged. Actually, everyone should be able to do that at all times. In cases of conflict, what counts as an improvement is decided by consensus.

That was the long version. The short version is - by all means, if you can find a good source for the "all-time legend" quote, it would probably be a good addition to the article. Euryalus (talk) 23:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

fair enough.t hanks for your reassoned and well-articulated pointmaking. i believe i unsderstanmd where youre coming from now. However, there ARE sources describing Mr Mcanir s a legend:

The Sun Herald, an unbiased, neutral newspapir = the alleged that Steve Mcnair created "these all-time rankings compiled by the Sun Herald" and furthed illusioned that "Steve McNair will remain atop this list until the end of time. The former Alcorn State standout remains the NCAA’s career total offense and passing leader." for the legend part, there is a place that says mcnair was a legend to all Americans Smith Jones (talk) 01:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Titans

2nd paragraph--confusing chronology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.145.108.22 (talk) 05:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Kazemi was Iranian American

I still say we describe the killer (Sahel Kazemi) as an Iranian immigrant or Iranian American because that has been verified and there is plenty of sources for this. According to her former boyfriend Keith Norfleet.page 2..."Norfleet said he moved to Nashville with Kazemi from Jacksonville, Fla., where her family lives. She was raised by a sister. Her mother, a native of Iran, was murdered when Kazemi was 9, Norfleet said...", [5] It solves everything in the story. I've been to America and they usually mention if the killer is African-American, Hispanic, Asian, Arab, etc. However, only white or Caucasian killers are usually not mentioned because they are the majority. Since America contains people from almost every country, this is the reason her nationality should be mentioned. You people who are debating here are not as smart as you think...you don't even know the difference between Nationality and Ethnicity or Race. I said Sahel Kazemi's "nationality", which is Iranian should be mentioned. She was BORN in Iran and moved to America, so she will always be an Iranian by nationality. She was at least 9 when she lived in Iran and 20 when she died,,,,unknown when she entered America. It takes at least 5 to 7 years to be able to apply for US citizenship....so it's possible she was not even a naturalized US citizen.--119.73.3.88 (talk) 21:37, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

excuse me, but we have obtained consensus in favor against your position. any attempts to change the article should be done through consensus-building without as unilateral commands such as us "not being as smart as we think". I sure you, that we are all equally capable of understand things and our disargreemnts should not be a slight against our intelligence anymore than we should call you a blithering moron. Assume good faith please and try to work withoout insults or condescending remarks. thank you for your patience and i hope that you have learned a valuble lesson about how disciplined editing and achieve consensus. Smith Jones (talk) 00:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It may be that a section is needed that would describe her background as best is known. Then the above info would be fair game. I don't think her ethnic background belongs in the lead, though, because there is no indication that it has anything to do with the murder-suicide. That could change, of course, but wikipedia is not in the business of looking into the crystal ball. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not her ethnic background....it's her nationality. Removing such sourced content is vandalism. If someone is from Iran and living in America then that person is Iranian. Smith Jones, no consensus was obtained against my position so please stop lying. Also, don't call me a moron because I'm not American. In every article people's nationality is mentioned so why can't we mention this here? Also, Sahel Kazemi was 19 years old when this 36 years old McNair first started messing with her. He bought her the SUV in May 2009 on her birthday, when she turned 20. She was young compare to him, she was 9 when he was 26 and that's considered young. McNair and Kazemi were involved in an interracial relationship so please do not remove this fact from his article.--119.73.4.73 (talk) 23:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

A) Removing irrelevant sourced information is not vandalism. B) "In every article people's nationality is mentioned so why can't we mention this here?" Here's why: Her race (at this point in time) is completely irrelevant to that fact that they were having an affair and she killed him. Now, please tell me, how does race play into that? Kimu 04:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You must first get a consensus if what you find is irrelevant or not before you remove it. This article is about an African American football player and everything he did in his life needs mentioning, not just about his sports times. If he dated a girl who happens to be an Iranian then we just report it here that he dated an Iranian girl. You must have a very good reason for hiding his girlfriend's Iranian nationality when it is mentioned in news articles and I don't know what that reason could be. Don't you realise that what this guy did was commit adultary because he was married to a woman and was secretly sleeping with other women. People want to know or study his personal side, not just his sports life. He had Interracial relationship with a young Iranian woman and there is no reason not to mention this.--119.73.1.149 (talk) 04:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The issue is the relevance of her background, and whether the inclusion of it implies something not otherwise supported by references. The fact that McNair was having an affair is both relevant and notable. The fact that it was an affair with an Iranian is not relevant, unless you are suggesting that as a factor in the murder. If so, you would need to provide sources. The fact that McNair is African-American is relevant to the article, but not relevant to the murder in the absence of sources to the contrary.

More broadly, as this is an article about McNair, the details provided on Kazemi need to be relevant to that article subject. A reliable source might report Kazemi's favorite color was green, but we wouldn't include that here because it means nothing in the context of her role in McNair's life. Equally, she appears to be or Iranian extraction - the test for inclusion of that fact in this article is whether that has any bearing on McNair's story. Did their relationship start because she was Iranian? Did they go to Iranian cultural events? has he professed any affinity for Iran? Did she murder him because she was Iranian? Or is it completely irrelevant - an accurate factoid but of no importance in this particular biography?

I'm not arguing Kazemi's extraction must never be mentioned here, but its inclusion must be justified by reliable sources not just supporting its accuracy but also showing why its relevant. Its not of earth-shattering importance either way, but the article needs to stay on topic even where the issue at hand is only one word. Euryalus (talk) 05:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreeing with most people, her nationality/ethnicity is irrelevant to the death and to this article and so far the consensus seems to leave it out. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 06:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, McNair was in an Interracial relationship with an Iranian girl and mentioning of this in his article is USEFUL INFORMATION to many many readers. Wikipedia is not only intended to provide information to you nonmuslim Americans but also to the 1.8 billion Muslims and all those who live outside of USA. Besides me, there are many Asians who want Kazemi's background revealed. In the above discussion another person using IP stated that they also were searching to know her background. Also, you keep stating "ethnicity",,,Iranian is not ethnicity. That's her nationality.--119.73.1.149 (talk) 06:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, it's IRRELEVANT INFORMATION and has nothing to do with the death. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 08:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

So what? The black 2007 Cadillac Escalade is also mentioned and has nothing to do with the death. You're just being ignorant about all this.--119.73.0.222 (talk) 10:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What anyone who reads Wikipedia wants is articles that are factual, on-topic, well-verified and don't divert into side issues. As has often been said, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate mass of information. If you think Kazemi's nationality has relevance to an article on McNair, you need to demonstrate how. If you think Kazemi's reigion is relevant to an article on McNair, you not only need to demonstrate how, you need a reliable source for the claim that she was that religion.

At present there's a fair consensus not to include either of these descriptors (particularly the unsourced one you've just put forward). The onus is on you to argue the case to turn that around. With all respect, simply repeating your views over and over with no new material to support them, is unlikely to achieve that goal. Euryalus (talk) 08:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The consensus starts at the He was murdered section...above the 'Sahel Kazemi was Iranian American' section. Majority of the editors suggested that it may be added since it doesn't violate the rules of Wikipedia. You may find it irrelevant but others will disagree and find this information very useful. I've already explained my fair reason that people in Asia (especially in Middle East) would like to be informed about which place the name Kazemi is associated with. Look students, this was some kind of unusual relationship between an Iranian girl and an African American. Most people don't date those who are outside their race, including in America where many races exist. Usually blacks marry blacks and Iranians marry Iranians, etc. Anyway, I just want to highlight this in the article. I am not trying to guess her religion or anything else,,,,just her nationality which I put in the best way with a reliable source. Iranians in America could be any of these: Shias, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Bahahis, Zoroasterians, etc. So far nobody given a good reason why her nationality should not be mentioned.--119.73.0.222 (talk) 10:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

At the risk of adding too many wikilinks -- the proportion of people in Asia interested in hearing about Kazemi's nationality, your views on how common interracial dating might be and what her religion might have been, are at best original research. The content of this article must be verifiable from reliable sources, relevant and given due weight for its relative importance. Nothing in reliable sources has been advanced so far to show that Kazemi's nationality has relevance to McNair's murder. Nothing has been advanced to explain why it is relevant to an article on McNair, or why it deserves such weight as to be included in this article. If anything, including it implies an importance it doesn't have - it suggests it is relevant, that her nationality had some bearing on their relationship or his death. And again, nothing has been said in reliable sources that would confirm any such implication.

I doubt we are going to convince each other, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Most editors who have contributed to this discussion oppose including this information for the reasons I've linked above. At the very least there is no consensus for its inclusion, and its been repeatedly removed from the article, sometimes by those here and sometimes by other editors who have in their edit summaries expressed the same opinions as the majority on this page. I can't see we're getting very far by reiterating the same points, so I'll leave this alone and invite anyone who hasn't already expressed a view to come forward and have their say. Euryalus (talk) 12:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You're just wasting my time. You are adding lies in your comments, I didn't even go into her religion so why are you keep bringing this up? The ONLY person removing Kazemi's nationality from the article is this homosexual User:Allstarecho, and her user page states that she is gay so I'm not insulting or offending her. Most editors are not opposing the info I added, can't you see they're basically just saying "it's whatever"...meaning not important to worry about such detail. If they were opposing it then why aren't they coming to explain here? I'm getting tired of you, PLEASE STOP reverting my contribution... and give other editors a chance to write their opinions. You are not the owner of this article, shame on you for not waiting for this consensus to end peacefully.--119.73.3.235 (talk) 15:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Exactly why did you feel the need to even mention my sexual orientation? What does it even remotely have to do with this discussion or the article? Absolutely nothing. And for the record, I am a He, not a She. And also for the record, I am not the only one that has removed it from the article. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 23:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus

Please explain whether Kazemi's nationality, Iranian American, be left in the article or removed. Thanks!

• Keep - It's just a good description that goes with the name Kazemi so all the readers have full infomation on the subject who was involved in an interracial relationship and murder of an African American football player. I've provided a reliable source and only mentioned the nationality in the least important place. Although her nationality has nothing to do with the murder, the fact remains that she was Iranian and McNair an African American, they were dating and were probably going to marry later.--119.73.3.235 (talk) 15:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
• Remove - In no particular order...
  • "Probably" going to marry -- where is that reliably sourced?
  • They were in an interracial relationship (or interethnic, or international, whatever). To put it bluntly, so what? How is that fact relevant to the murder or, more importantly, to this article? Does the (apparent) fact that she came from Iran man anything to the story of the murder-suicide? Even 119.73.3.235 doesn't think so, saying above "Although her nationality has nothing to do with the murder,". I haven't seen anything yet other than some find it interesting, but interesting does not necessarily mean relevant. Why is an interracial relationshiop even newsworthy these days? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 16:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I haven't inserted in the article anything relating to a possible marriage so why are you asking for a source to this? Seems to me you are lost in this dicussion. You haven't provided any reason to remove it except only that you don't want it there.--119.73.1.98 (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You mentioned it as a "fact" in your explanation above, which was apparently one of your supporting arguments about why you think nationality should be included. There's no indication that it's a fact, so your supporting argument becomes weaker. The reason to remove the nationality is because there's no reason to have it there, and it's not relevant. You haven't shown that it is relevant -- in fact, you yourself admitted it isn't. The burden is on you, not me. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 11:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Remove It's irrelevant, plain and simple. Evidence from the investigation has shown that her race had nothing to do with the affair, or murder. Also, if they (the readers) want "full information on the subject," they can click on the references provided or google (or bing, or yahoo, etc.) her name or some other type of keyword search (e.g. steve mcnair death, steve mcnair murder, etc.). Kimu 19:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - It's irrelevant to you and I disagree with you. Her nationality is mentioned not for the purpose of her affair or with the investigation into the murder but only so that she is identified as who she really was. You haven't provided any reason to remove it except only that you don't want it there.--119.73.1.98 (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

"Who she really was" for the purpose of this article is McNair's killer (as claimed by the police and the autopsy). What is the point of labelling her with nationality? Why are you so concerned with labelling? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 11:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Remove just for the sake of amusing you but, we don't WP:VOTE on Wikipedia. We discuss to form opinions. Her nationality is irrelevant to the deaths and to Steve McNair. If it's relevant anywhere, it would be in her own article if she were notable enough to have one. The consensus is obviously against inclusion of her nationality. Secondly, I'd suggest you cook it with the personal attacks and read WP:NPA. If you refer to anyone else as ignorant again, you could be blocked from editing. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 19:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - You keep repeating the same nonsense. You're just showing ignorance, I explained many times that her nationality doesn't have anything to do with the murder but it's to properly identify her. You haven't provided any reason to remove it except only that you don't want it there. This is not a vote if it was I would have stated it in the sub-section heading. Don't forget to look back up all the way to the He was murdered section where some editors leaned their opinions towards my side.--119.73.1.98 (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You said in the description of the sub section heading, and I quote, "You must give a logical reason otherwise your vote will not be considered." I removed that because this isn't a vote. And if you call anyone else ignorant one more time, I will seek further action against you. Whether you think it's non-sense or not, her nationality is irrelevant and unnecessary to the article. Your insisting on it being there seems to be nothing but to make some sort of ethnic/racial point. The consensus is against including it. I'm going to wait another day to see if it changes. If it doesn't, I will remove it again. If you place it back, I will seek further action against your disruption. Good day. - ALLST✰R▼^echo _{wuz here} 23:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment I agree with you (119.173.1.98) about reporting the fact of her nationality, I wish you'd approach it differently. Describing an editor as ignorant or as "repeating .. nonsense" doesn't address the content issue we're all here to resolve. Because it can be taken as incivil, such commentary can serve to make reaching consensus more difficult. --SSBohio 23:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for sounding that way and I apologize. I'm from Pakistan and my english is little weak. I am not calling anyone ignorant but was only refering to the actions and intentions of someone. I am not trying to create any ethnic/racial point... I've just reported it as how any major media would. I agree that not in all cases nationality be mentioned, but should be ok in unusual cases such as this. Also, I wish ALLST✰R does not remove the infor and waits for others to write their opinions. Let someone else make a fair and reasonable decision.--119.73.0.187 (talk) 04:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Keep It's a neutral fact. She's Iranian-American. She worked as a waitress at Dave & Buster's in Opry Mills. It's no more or less material than her gender, or her name for that matter. We need to cover her neutrally, yet without denying who she was in the interest of pursuing McNair's celebrity-enhanced story. --SSBohio 23:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Remove - Can anyone actually explain how where her mother was born is relevant to Steve McNair's life? It isn't, so leave it out.►Chris Nelson^Holla! 23:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - We're saying here to allow the short description after Kazemi's name (a young 20-yr-old Iranian-American) so this way readers of this article may learn a little about who she was. Providing this is being a little helpful or useful. I'm asking what help would it cause if this was removed?--119.73.0.187 (talk) 04:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Remove - for the reasons outlined ad nauseum in the section above. Euryalus (talk) 04:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - Even if she hadn't shot him, it is true and reliably sourced that McNair had a sexual relationship with Kazemi; the identity (name, age, nationality etc.) of a lover is relevant to a person's biography. Many Wikipedia biographies mention the ethnicity / nationality / religion etc. of the partner, especially when it is different to that of the subject. Crime researcher (talk) 20:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus obtained

i feel that consensus has been reached in favor o arglebargleIVs POV so i wont mind if you remove the Persian/Iranian tag. however, i wil retain the link where the information was found so that people who are curious about this woman can learn more about her as a person. Thank you for your particpation and i am glad that we have all fallen in agreeme.t. Smith Jones (talk) 21:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I oppose your view point. Removing sourced content which indicates someone's nationality is vandalism. Wikipedia covers people from many different countries so adding their nationality is helpful in most cases. I advise you to check the rules of Wikipedia on this issue before you make further discussions here. Thanks!--119.73.4.73 (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

i apologize for rushing and sorry for inappropriately obtianing consensus. good luck in the future Smith Jones (talk) 02:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Apology accepted, thanks for understanding my reasons.--119.73.1.149 (talk) 04:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Man who sold gun charged

The man who sold the gun used in the murder has been charged with felony possession (he was a convicted murderer). Is this relevant? News broke on ESPN earlier. 64.148.241.133 (talk) 00:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed questionable information

If you geniuses are done arguing over whether or not his Gf's ethnic background should be included or not...I've removed the following until a citation can be provided: "US Attorney Eward Yarbrough stated on July 17, 2009, that the pistol had been legally owned by Sahel Kazemi despite her age, since she had purchased the gun from an individual and not a federally licensed dealer; in such a case, the buyer may be as young as eighteen."

I consider this to be highly unlikely, as the Gun Control Act of 1968 does not allow transfers of handguns between unlicensed individuals (much less between a "prohibited person"-- convicted felon-- and another prohibited person-- currently charged with a felony and under 21), and requires the transfer be done with an FFL, and both seller and buyer not be within a statutorily prohibited category (which both were)-- so either the US Attorney is a freakin idiot, or this statement by him is false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.114.219 (talk) 04:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Your statement is not entirely incorrect - see Gun Control Act of 1968. Sales of handguns between private individuals in the same state are not subject to that law. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Children's ages

Wouldn't it be better to provide the year of birth instead of the age? Who takes care of updating the ages every birthday? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 15:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

"The Assets"

"On October 15, 2010 it was reported that McNair’s widow went to a Nashville judge and asked that at least a portion of the assets be unfrozen so that his children could have some sort of monetary source. The judge agreed and each of the four children received $500,000."

This sentence makes references to "the assets" without saying what they are, where they came, or why they were apparently frozen.

Chrisirwin (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

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