Talk:Studebaker/Archive 1

Archive 1

Suggestions welcome

Most of the article I took from notes for a tlak I've given. I deleted the 'Punch Line' since I cannot think of a good way to give it NPOV. Suggestions are welcome. Here's the story...

Studebaker did all the things in the 'modern' corporate leadership book. They had a mission and vision (economical mobility for average people} and even investigated airplanes and helicoipters. What killed them was the inheritence taxes. The family lost control, and modern managers needed to milk the brand name and reputation for short term profits. R&D went early on, as did the vision. Product line expanded just to 'grow in market segments'. After the core values were gone, they became another Ford or GM without the big manufacturer's leverage. Then they died. .... So suggestions are welcome on how to add this fact to the article and still be neutral. I assume that favoring or arguing against a form of tax shouldn't go into an article. Any ideas?? - Lou I 22:43 18 May 2003 (UTC).

Typo

"Henry Studebaker was a farmer, blacksmith, and wagon..." He was a wagon? I'm confused. -- Tarquin 21:27 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I presume it was supposed to say "wagoner", which I've changed it to. Call me a cab, Infrogmation

I changed it to wagon-maker. A wagoner or wagoneer is a teamster who drives the wagon. A wainwright or wagon-maker builds them. I didn't think anyone would understand wainwright though. Shame. Rmhermen 00:35 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

let's put "wainwright" and link it so people find out! -- tarquin (loged out)

Avanti & De Lorean

Is there any connection between the Avanti and De Lorean besides that Mr. De Lorean once worked for the Studebacker-Packard company? Rmhermen 00:46 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Yes, when Studebaker gave up the ghost; De Lorean bought the dies, equipment, and rights to make the Avainti, did a very little restyling and produced it as the De Lorean. Lou I

Interesting. But they look very different to me. Rmhermen 16:14 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I spoke too quickly, frim memory rather than checking, apologies. The purchase of rights was part of his actions leading up to an attempt to REstart the De Lorean company in Ofio, after the first De Lorean went broke. DeLorean's earlier connection with Studebaker was in deign work, after GM and before his own company. Lou I

Someone should add this to the John De Lorean page. It doesn't mention Studebaker. Rmhermen 16:42 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Just as a note, following the closure of Studebaker in December 1963, the Avanti's production rights and name were purchased by Nate Altman and his brother (I "think" they were South Bend Studebaker dealers) who continued the vehicle as the Avanti II well into the 1970s. Changes after the Altman's took over included the cars' engine (Studebaker no longer made engines after South Bend closed, and I think they used a Chevy V8) and suspension systems. But if memory serves me right, this caused the car to stand slightly different than when it was a Studebaker product. I'd do a Goole on "Nate Altman" and Avanti II to see what you find. user: stude62 user talk:stude62 23:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Altman & Newman

Nate Altman and Leo Newman owned Newman and Altman, the largest Studebaker dealer in South Bend. When they started production of the Avanti II the two biggest changes were substituting the Chevrolet engine for the Studebaker one, and eliminating the rake of the car. The story goes that this was done because the Chevy engine was taller than the Studebaker unit, but the real reason was that Leo Newman didn't like the rake! Aside from those two changes the early Avanti II's were basically Studebaker Avanti's, with the same suspension and front disk brakes as Studebaker used. In fact the same front suspension was used well into the mid 80's. This is the same kingpin suspension Studebaker introduced in 1951 and it was (and is) a strong, well thought out suspension and the cars handled quite well. --JeffDeWitt 04:17, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Studebaker Activities in Brazil

I am a researcher developing a thesis on the activities of American industry in Early twentieth century Brazil. I am searching for any and all information and/or photos related to Studebaker's presence in São Paulo during the 40's or sooner, their involvement with the Brazilian government, their production interests, and/or role in employing Brazilians in the war effort. Please direct any commentaries or helpful hints to:

scott@lrinewyork.com

thanks, and I will also post my updates as they come in. It is of everyone's interest to know the workings of American industrial power in and around the world.

scott

Studebaker was able to export cars to Latin America very well because it had first exported wagons there. --Sobolewski 00:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Studebaker to Studebaker Brothers...

I'm not sure that this was a good move. Stude62 03:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Studebaker Brothers Manufacturing Company → Studebaker Corporation – The current page article name is the first corporate name for what is best known as the Studebaker Corporation. Studebaker Corporation manufactured automobiles from 1912 to 1966. The current name is archaic and the page should be listed under its last, and best known, independent name.

---

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support, standard wikipedia practice is to use the most common name unless there are particular difficulties. No pages link to this title and the move has broken to redirects. Rmhermen 06:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support I know I'm not suppose to vote for what I nominated, but I will anyway. Stude62 17:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

I am a Studebaker and have been involved with the Studebaker Family National Association for many years, since its founding in the early 1960s. You noted that Studebaker is a professional name and was originally Dutch. I picked this up from a German book published years ago on the origin of German names. However, more recent research by Bernard Freter, a family researcher from Hagen, indicated Studebaker (Stutenbecker) is a place name and refers to a stream which flows into the Wupper River in the vicinity of Solingen. It literally means one who comes from Mare Creek (Stutenbeck). See THE STUDEBAKER FAMILY IN AMERICAN, VOLUMES I AND II, published by the Sudebaker Family National Association. I enjoyed reading your article. Gary Studebaker, Pendleton, OR ssjg@bmi.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.24.6.107 (talk) 09:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Moved back to 'Studebaker'

I've moved the article back to 'Studebaker'. It should be here, under the Wikipedia naming convention rule of 'Use common names'. Second preference is 'Studebaker Corporation' since that is the best known corporate name. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the current name should do. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 08:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Studebaker and Packard "merger"

They never actually merged; this is a common misconception and is sadly repeated here. Packard in fact PURCHASED Studebaker (not the other way around regardless of the order of the corporate name). Do some research and you'll see what I say is correct.

Also the bit about DeLorean needs clarification. First off he was an engineer not a "designer" etc. He was employed by Packard (not Stude) and worked on at least their Twin Ultramatic automatic transmission, and possibly the Torsion Level suspension too. I've never heard of any connection between him and the Avanti, and while it's possible I highly doubt it.

I don't mean to sound pompous or full of myself and I wholeheartedly encourage all readers to verify what I say (it's always nice to learn new things in the process!). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.37.15.220 (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Revival attempts / Section Needs Updating

Not trying to sound pushy or bossy, This section needs to be Updated. Avanti Motor Corp has moved all prduction to Mexico, Avanti has also Stopped Using the Stuebaker Name. Now I and others in the past did check and learn that Studebaker Motor Company Inc is a real company. Studebaker Motor Company Inc in one of their last press releases stated that they were going to be moving Corp Offices to the San Antonio TX metro area. Now Some may not want to post anything about the New Studebaker, however if you going to post statements about Avanti it should only be fair to give a small note on the new Studebaker Motor Company Inc as well. Emails have been sent to Avanti asking why they have stopped using the name studebaker, However they have not sent a statement out why they have stopped. Now I am doing my best to be objective about both Companies. From what i have learned the new Studebaker Motor Company is in the development stages. Now with Avanti the Kelly's still own it and have moved everthing to Mexico.--Settinghawk 18:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have citations nothing is stopping you from updating. Be bold. --Dhartung | Talk 22:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I have updated it and will keep a watch on both Studebaker Motor Company Inc and Avanti Motor Corporation to see they both will do in Vehicle Production. Also I have added Studebaker Motor Company Inc's web the External Links for Reference. I have done this so that other Wiki Writers may also aide in writing on both the new Studebaker and Avanti.--Settinghawk 03:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

After all these years, hasn't become apparent that this "The Studebaker Motor Company Inc." is nothing but someone's automotive version of fantasy football? Other than a sloppy, amteurish web page, it has produced nothing in the way of new product, nothing in the way of legitimate automotive press coverage, it has produced nothing but a whole lot of nothing. This whole idea that another automotive company is going to self generate from nothing to a full line builder and retailer is simply someone's misplaced fantasy, and nothing more. Its time to stop pretending and stop taking this childish exercise seriously by giving it space in Wikipedia. It is damaging the verifiability of the Studebaker article. 68.252.62.180 (talk) 18:26, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

last model off the line?

In section History, subsection, subsubsection Hamilton, Ontario, the first sentence of the second paragraph says "The last car to roll off the line was a turquoise Lark cruiser on March 4, 1966". In the subsubsection Exit of auto business, the last sentence of the first paragraph says "The last car manufactured was a turquoise-and-white Cruiser four-door sedan."

So which is it? The first claim is sourced, but to an offline site. Herostratus 16:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Both the Studebaker Museum and Studebaker Motor Company inc web sites say [where a blue and white 1966 Cruiser] Neither say if it was a coupe or sedan. I will do some checking into this, I think I read it some where before what it was, just not sure- But will check. The Cruiser was in a coupe and sedan though. --Settinghawk 22:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok still doing some checking, so far I have found out the last one from 1966 may indeed be a Blue Body White Top Lark Cruiser Sedan.--Settinghawk 02:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The last car from 1966 is a blue body white top Sedan. And it is on display at the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend IN. You can all the Museum.--Settinghawk 15:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I give notice that if there is any more persistent vandalism by User:Studebakerempire or clones, I will apply per WP:RFP to seek semi-protection of the article. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 03:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A note from Commons

Authors, please have a look at this comment made on Commons today. It seems it's about the image Studebaker Commander 2.jpg which is used within this article. I can't take care personally as I don't know much about Studebaker vehicles. Thanks --:bdk: 21:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. There are two views of the same disputed subject, both of which I have lifted pending further discussion.

• 
  Late model Commander with Lark grille, a response to the too-radical shovelnose.
• 
  Another view of the late model Commander.

To begin with, we don't need any more than one pic of a particular model. The comment made on Commons is: In the pictures accompanying the article on STUDEBAKER information section, the vehicle shown as a Commander with a Lark grille" is in fact a Silver Hawk (1958-1962) with a grille from either a Lark or 1963-1964 Studebaker Hawk. The body shown, based on the 1953 coupe design was only designated as a Commander from 1952 to 1955 inclusive. In 1956 the body was revamped a bit, and introduced as the Golden Hawk. The tail fins were added in 1957 and lasted until the introduction of the Gran Turismo Hawk in 1963 & 1964. [from Willem A Boom, Studebaker owner] From my reading of all the literature I have, this guy seems to be mostly right. The square grille is from the 1956 Hawks (a body restyle of the 1953-54 Commander Skyliner coupé) and fins appeared (also in 1956) on the top-of-the-range Golden Hawk. However, both the body and the fins were quite different from those in the photo above. Still, I can see no justification for identifying this car as a Commander. I have no references on the Silver Hawk, so maybe someone else can chime in at this point. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 08:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Loewy and Exner

Hi, I would welcome any inputs from Stude afficionados to my enquiry at Talk:Virgil Exner#Design work. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup needed up top?

It irritates me that the intro to the Studebaker article is cluttered by a rather pointlessly large infobox and a duplicated 'lazy-S' logo that properly belongs lower down. Imho, the reader should be immediately presented with illustrations which properly tell the Studebaker story-- eg, the brothers' photo and a couple of exemplary motor cars from the pre-war and post-war periods. Also, the last three paragraphs of the introductory text need to be shortened and some of the content moved down below. I'm happy to make the changes, but invite comment in case anyone wants to object or make an alternative suggestion. If we have to have an infobox, I would propose abbreviating it as per following example. Most other useful info is linked to in the baseplate. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 07:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

You need to keep in mind that long before you were involved with this article, others were. And you should keep in mind that these people put a lot of effort into the artilce based on the standards in place on Wikipedia at that time. Your attitude is one of the chief reasons why I no longer contribute to Wikipedia. I don't mean to to be rude, but to use your wording "it irratates me" that some people are so short sighted as to forget that times and protocols change. 68.252.62.180 (talk) 18:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Er, this is indeed rude--and unjustified (as well as belated). I simply made a suggestion on this talk page, then dropped it following discussion. Please carefully read WP:OWN and especially take note of the words on every edit page: "If you do not want your writing to be edited and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." Cheers Bjenks (talk) 02:36, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Studebaker

Industry	Automobile – cars and commercial vehicles
Founded	February 1852
Defunct	16 March 1966 – ceased manufacturing
Headquarters	South Bend, Indiana, USA

In my opinion the infobox is short and good now , it is the other images that clutteres the article, maybe some rearranging with other photos.... or placing toc to different place? --Typ932 ^T·C 08:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Studebaker V-8

I couldn't find any mentioning of the fine Studebaker V8-engine that started, IIRC, in 1952 and powered generations of cars. Further, it seems that the 1956 Golden Hawk was the only Studebaker that was not powered by a Studebaker engine but the Packard/Clipper 352 c.i. V-8.--Chief tin cloud (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Pierce-Arrow

History has it that Studebaker once owned the Pierce-Arrow company which had some impact on the design of both makes in the early 30ies (Wasn't Silver Arrow's designer Phil Wright a Studebaker employee?). --Chief tin cloud (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Studebaker president Erskine purchased Pierce Arrow as part of his efforts to build a multi-market level company (with buyers starting with Erskine - later Rockne, then studebkaer then Pierce Arrow), however every authoritative work that I have ever seen on Studebaker and Pierce Arrow shows that Pierce operated as a stand alone facility, with no shared components (eg engines, drive trains, trim, etc.) or departments other than the Studebaker Board of Directors, and even then, there was limited activity. Pierce Arrow's chief problem with that its manufacturing methods were very (and I mena this most sincerely), VERY dated, and their product's break even point was incredibly high. 68.252.62.180 (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Exit from auto business

After not watching closely for awhile, I see that this section has become cluttered, is missing important events and needs a complete review, especially of the jumbled subsection 'Non-auto activities' which includes quite a bit of auto stuff. If no one strongly objects, I'll take it on in the near future and try to tighten it up. In other respects, the article is very readable and helpful. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 06:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Until now, I've accepted the questionable reference to a latter-day "Studebaker Motor Company" which (apart from the name) has no connection whatever with the subject or contents of this article. Unfortunately, an IP contributor apparently connected with the new business, now insists on using the article as a means of promoting a commercial website. I have therefore removed reference to the new company. If its proprietors can establish it as notable enough, they can prepare a separate article. However, I will resist any further attempt to hitch their advertising to this article, as per WP:SOAP. The deletion enabled merging of two sections into one. I then made a separate merger of a paragraph of duplicated non-auto-business content into the relevant section. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 17:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments from GAN

Drive-by remarks (not necessarily within the GA criteria):

• Unnecessary short sections. Subsections below "Plant facitilities..." can be removed altogether. Same for "Crisis...".
• Section heading "World War II" contradicts is contents: "From the 1920s to the 1960s, the South Bend company ...". The section needs more beef on military contracts, which are now limited to just one sentence.
• Abuse of however. "However, this conflicts with a genealogy produced later" is ok but not really needed. "The five brothers died ... However, their sons and sons-in-law remained active" is wrong. Of course they remained. No need for a contrastive link here (WP:1A).
• Linking concerns. Some, like linking Americans in "World War II" seem unnecessary. In another case, sulkies are linked at their second instance. The first instance leaves the reader curious about the obscure, forgotten word.
• Too many car photos. Really. Most are just average-looking cars for their times. Car photos are essential for companies and models that stood aside from the crowd (Cord, Citroen, some Chryslers). In case of Studebaker I can only think of Exner's Starlight, Commander and Champion (just one picture, not three), Avanti and their WW2 military trucks.
• Gallery is redundant.
• List of cars and {{Studebaker}} duplicate each other. I'd rather see List of Studebaker vehicles improved.

Cheers, East of Borschov 04:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention and consideration here. Taking your points in turn: I agree the plant facilities can be rolled into a single section (at least until more detail is forthcoming on the two locations outside South Bend). In the WWII subsection, I've already changed 1960s to 1930s and will look into sources to 'beef up' military production. At this stage I'll leave it to others to examine the nuances of expression and linking, but I'll defend the array of car images against what appears to be your pov. My own pov is that the main Stude achievement peaked before 1930 :), and that pre-war Studebakers are anything but average-looking. (Not that many people turn to Wikipedia for fashionable photos, anyway.) The article doesn't yet have a gallery section per se. I agree the list of cars (under heading Products) is redundant and should be replaced by a link to an improved List of Studebaker vehicles. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 09:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Studebaker/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 19:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll review this article tonight. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 19:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The first issue I see, before I go further, is something in the refs. For the journal and book, of 50ish and 121 pages, respectively, I would greatly prefer that the individual page was noted for each citation. This way if someone were to read the book they would easily know where to go. If this is possible to fix in a timely manner then do so, if not I might let it slide, since it's not a huge number of pages. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

After actually reading through the article, I see what you did with the page numbers now, so nevermind what I said above. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 21:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Here's the issues I found:

• "Photographs of the brothers and their parents are reproduced in the 1918 company history, which was written by Erskine after he became president, in memory of John M.[4]:p.5 whose portrait appears on the front cover. Directors Frederick Samuel Fish and Henry Goldman are also pictured in the book." I'm not sure of the relevance of this to the article itself. Feels a little tangential to me, but if you think it should be kept in I won't force the issue.
• Any references to John M need to have a period for his initial (John M.). Same with any other names like that.
• "During the height of westward migration and wagon train pioneering, half of the wagons used were Studebakers. They made about a quarter of them, and manufactured the metal fittings for other builders in Missouri for another quarter-century." I'd like to see a cite added for that.
• "The best people were buying Studebaker sulkies, broughams, clarences, phaetons, runabouts, victorias, and tandems." what is meant by "best"?
• "The wealthiest could buy for $20,000 a four-in-hand smart enough to carry a dozen swells in style," huh?
• "In 1889, incoming President Harrison" link harrison
• "The worldwide economic depression of 1893 caused a dramatic pause in sales and the plant closed down for five weeks, but industrial relations were good and the organised workforce declared faith in their employer." cite should be added here too.
• "(See main article Studebaker Electric (automobile).)" Work the link into the prose itself, rather than self-referencing, which is discouraged.
• The Garford section is unreferenced.
• "Under the agreement with Studebaker" when did the agreement occur? Same for the EMF one.
• First para of E-M-F needs to be cited.
• "After taking over E-M-F's facilities, Studebaker sought to remedy the customer dissatisfaction by paying mechanics to visit each disgruntled owner and replace defective parts in their vehicles, at a total cost of US$1 million." and "From that time, Studebaker's own marque was put on all new automobiles produced at the former E-M-F facilities as an assurance that the vehicles were well built." at least one of those should be cited, both is fine too.
• "Buses, fire engines, and even small rail locomotives were produced using the same powerful six-cylinder engines." cite needed
• "In 1925, the corporation's most successful distributor and dealer Paul G. Hoffman came to South Bend as vice-president" commas before and after Hoffman.
• "In 1926, Studebaker became the first automobile manufacturer in the United States to open a controlled outdoor proving ground on which, in 1937, would be planted 5,000 pine trees in a pattern that spelled "STUDEBAKER" when viewed from the air. " cite needed
• "By 1929, the sales list had been expanded to 50 models and business was so good that 90 per cent of earnings were being paid out as dividends to shareholders in a highly competitive environment." cite
• For the 1920s facilities, link the cities rather than bolding them.
• "$6m," I'd either write out the number or say 6/six million.
• World War II section is unreferenced.
• "Studebaker prepared well in advance for the anticipated post-war market and launched the slogan First by far with a post-war car." cite needed.
• The images start to bundle up in the middle, messing with the column widths. A few of them could be moved down closer to the end of the article.
• "The new trunk design prompted a running joke that one could not tell if the car was coming or going." cite
• ""Avanti II". (See main article Avanti cars (non-Studebaker).)" combine to make a link; avoid self-references in text.
• The final few paragraphs are nearly unreferenced (between last automobiles produced and network and other assets), the first two are fully unref'd.
• Both date styles are used (month day, year and day month year). Stick to one. Since it's a US company it would be the former. By that same token, there is some British English used in this article rather than American English (i.e. favourite). That needs to be fixed.

I was originally planning on putting the article on hold, but due to the volume of issues I found, I'm going to fail it as a GAN. When the issues are fixed and the article is re-nom'd, it should pass with little difficulty, since I hit on pretty much every issue. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:06, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

STP initials query

The article, at Studebaker#Non-auto activities, indicates that under Studebaker's ownership (according to their 1960 Annual Report) STP was short for the Scientifically Treated Products Division. This represents a change from Scientifically Treated Petroleum, as per the STP (motor oil company) article. Does anybody have some early company literature or other means of verifying what the intials have meant from time to time? Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Scotsman

If you go to the Wik Studebaker Scotsman article, you will read that the Scotsman played a significant part in the firm's history, being the ground-breaker for the Lark, which is discussed at length here. So, there should be more on the Scotsman than a simple listing of the name along with outher models.211.225.30.91 (talk) 11:12, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. The Scotsman was not properly mentioned and I've now included it the list of models. This article is not intended to discuss individual models which have separate articles. The Lark is mentioned in the context of the last cars produced. The Scotsman article is quite interesting but totally unreferenced, meaning it needs some serious work in order to meet WP standards. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 15:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Archive 1