Talk:Sundrum Castle

Some comments

• "The castle was built on land gifted to Sir Duncan by King David II in 1370": is the gift or the building done in 1370?
• "Some sources mistakenly report it was Sir Robert who commissioned the castle.": this needs a citation (what sources? Or, alternatively, who says some sources?).
  • I've added other {{cn}} tags where necessary but the one above is strongly necessary
• I'm not entirely sure how appropriate "Sir Duncan" is when referring to the builder. It sounds a bit informal.
• "until 1753 (though at least one source says 1758 and the 1885 book by Millar claims it went straight to the Hamiltons in 1750)": this section is very dense reading and hard to understand.

Kj cheetham, I'll add more comments later/do some ce on the article. If I don't feel free to ping. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 09:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Ixtal, thank you for the comments, much appreciated! I'll attempt to address them in the coming days. -Kj cheetham (talk) 12:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ixtal, I've made some further tweaks, including clarifying Alexander Waters a bit as per another editor's tag. Regarding your comments:

• 1370 is when the gift was done. I couldn't find the exact date it was built.
• Regarding Sir Robert, that was my observation rather than someone who said some sources. However looking again it's sources like http://web.archive.org/web/20201130231219/http://sundrumcastle.com/castle.html rather than text books, and implies there was an even older castle before Sir Duncan made his castle. There's not much to back that up, so I've just removed the sentance.
• I think I've sorted out the other {{cn}} tags.
• I'm not really sure on the equiette of referring to medieval knights to be honest. I'd seen that form in at least one book though, which was a bit shorter than using the full name or something like Sir Duncan of Sundram.
• What happened around 1753 was a bit confusing, as sources don't agree, so I've tried to reword it so it flows better. (On a side note, you wouldn't believe the number of different people called John Hamilton!)

How soon do you think I should submit it to GA? Thanks,

-Kj cheetham (talk)

P.S. The article before I first edited it even said it was Sir Robert Wallace (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sundrum_Castle&oldid=1081964595), but I own the Plantagenet Somerset Fry book and he's not even mentioned at all. It just says the tower is "from the 14th century". -Kj cheetham (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Ixtal I thought I'd just go for it and submit to GAN now, and I can always keep working on it whilst it's in the queue too. -Kj cheetham (talk) 11:06, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Sundrum Castle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 18:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Will review soon. Hog Farm _Talk 18:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

• "and is considered one of the oldest inhabited castles in Scotland" - should appear in body as well as lead
• "and is considered one of the oldest inhabited castles in Scotland" - secondary comment - I'm not sure that the website of the people promoting the castle is a great source for this sort of claim
  • I'll remove these. The only other sources I found to support this claim were promotional. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
    • Thank you CollectiveSolidarity. I agree probably best to have removed it. I can't find a reliable source that pre-dates the original website source I used, and used the Millar ref again earlier in the paragraph. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• "The name Sundrum is thought to come from the word "sonndruim", meaning "ridge of trees". The tower was at a time thought to have Pictish origins, but there is no mention of it before the start of the 14th century. This factoid may have been popularised by Robert Burns" - not supported by the source
  • I've added another ref for the word meaning. I couldn't find a reliable ref saying it was popularised by Robert Burns, so I've changed to just say it was referred to that. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• "(sometimes written as Cathkert)" - not in source, can probably be removed
  • I think I must have gotten that from a genealogy website, which is perhaps not reliable, so duly removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• I'm not sure that ScotsClans is a reliable source. Appears to be some sort of sales site?
  • It seems to be a family run business.  Checking... I've just posted a query to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Clans of Scotland for clarification as I'm not 100% sure if it's considered a RS. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
    • Based on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#ScotClans? it seems now, so I've removed that plus the date and mention of Greenock from it. I've added another ref regarding the Hamiltons of Sundrum family though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:35, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
• "In the 1790s the Hamiltons were responsible for carrying out extensive alterations to the site, including building the Hamilton Wing and the clock tower. The castle was incorporated into the present mansion in 1792." - not finding this in the source
  • I've added a reference for the 2nd sentance.  Checking... I need to follow-up on the first sentance to find where I read about it... -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
    • Now clarified. -Kj cheetham (talk) 13:33, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
• Castles sometimes served military purposes - any indication that this is the case here?
  • I've not seen much any mention of it. Given the thickness of the walls of the original 14th century keep I assume it must have been, but I have no sources to support that. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• "McGinn, Clark. "Chapter 92: Burns and Slavery". In Shaw, Frank R. (ed.). Robert Burns Lives!. www.electricscotland.com." - unconvinced that this is RS
  • Looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Clans_of_Scotland/Resources it says "be wary of this". The page I used as a reference seems to be a contributed essay, which I'd taken as being more reliable than just a random page on the site. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• "The family were also involved in reducing the rent of William Burnes, father of the poet Robert Burns.[1][12] The Hamiltons of Sundrum were heavily involved in both the sugar and slavery industries, including part-owning the Pemberton Valley sugar plantation situated in Jamaica.[12][13][14] After the abolition of slavery in the British West Indies in 1833, Colonel Alexander West Hamilton, brother of John Hamilton, arranged for a child from the plantation to be brought to Scotland to obtain schooling and learn a trade. This child, Alexander Waters, learned to be a stone mason, and eventually started his own family settled on the Sundrum estate.[13][15]" - this all seems rather tangential to the main article subject of the castle
  • I thought the Robert Burns link was interesting. I've just edited it a bit to clarify it was whilst the Hamiltons were at Sundrum. I can remove it if you feel it's too tangential though.
  • The note about sugar and slavery I thought was important as that was how the upkeep of the castle was funded if I remember correctly.  Checking... I need to check the sources again to confirm this.
    • I've added an extra sentance with an additional ref to support this. -Kj cheetham (talk) 21:56, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Regarding Alexander Waters, that's also perhaps a bit tangential as he ended up working and living on the Sundrum estate, whilst the Hamiltons were in the castle, but as it's only a couple of sentances didn't think it was too WP:UNDUE. Again though, I'm happy to remove that part if you think it's better without it. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Anything significant to the castle itself occur in the 1800s?
  • The only things I found from that century were about the Hamiltons are people rather than the castle itself. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• " "Geograph:: Claude Hamilton Memorial Hall © Mary and Angus Hogg". www.geograph.org.uk." - looks to be a personal website. Not sure that it's RS
  • That webpage cited a book, so as per WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT I've already the ref to make that clearer. I'll also see if I can get hold of a copy of that book myself too. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
  • I now own the Dane book, so I've been able to reference the exact page. I also added a sentance to the end of the previous section about Claud Hamilton's marriage which resulted in the clock tower, so there is some 1800s activity in the end. -Kj cheetham (talk) 13:33, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
• "Wallace Tower, the castle's keep, is currently owned by landlords Graham and Patricia Cathcart Waddington" - source is from 2018, so recommend stating that year instead of "currently"
  • Done. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• "There was a small prison pit, which is now sealed off."- not seeing this in the archived webpage, and the original won't open for me (I'm in the States, so maybe that's affecting things)
  • Another ref added. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• "(This is distinct from the similarly named Hamilton Wing at Belle Isle Estate.) " - not noting a mention of Belle Isle in the source
  • Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Once these get addressed or responded to, I'll take another look Hog Farm _Talk 02:21, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Hog Farm Thank you. I'm offline for a couple of days now, but will make a start responding to these early next week. -Kj cheetham (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Hog Farm I've responded to most of your comments, but there's still a couple of things I need more time to check again. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

It's over to you I think again now. Thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 23:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• " A road in Coylton, Sundrum Park, is associated with slavery and the Hamiltons" - is the road specifically related to the castle? If not, it might be too tangential to mention
  • Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
• geograph.org.uk again - if I'm understanding your above comment correctly, this material is now covered by the Dane cite? If so, then this ref can be lost
  • Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
• The 1971 listing as Category B is mentioned, but not the exact date of 14 April
  • Mentioned. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
• " "Sundrum Castle – Mysterious Britain & Ireland". www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk." - accepts user contributions of material. Not RS. (If all you can get for the alleged haunting is this and Spooky Isles, I'd recommend removal unless Spooky Isles is way more high-profile than it would seem at first glance
  • Removed the mysteriousbritain.co.uk ref. The next sentance ref also mentions it at least, as I don't think Spooky Isles is that high-profile. The Coventry book has a single short sentance mentioning the "Green Lady", so I've added that ref too. -Kj cheetham (talk)
• ""The Coats House, Sundrum, Ayr". www.kwuk.com." - source no longer links to the right place, seems to be an expired real estate listing. Try the Wayback Machine?
  • That's annoying - it worked last week, and it's not on wayback machine. I've replaced it with another ref though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
• ""Sundrum Castle :Accommodation". web.archive.org. Archived from the original on 30 November 2020." - publisher is sundrumcastle.com, not web.archive.org
  • Fixed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
• "Wray, Jacqueline Heron (24 March 2021). "Sundrum and Barclaugh, Ayrshire". Love Living History?." - Wray's personal website. Does she have credentials in this field, or is this just a run-of-the-mill personal website?
  • She's written a book (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43537693-king-street-to-king-s-road) but not convinced that counts as credentials in this field, is at best an amateur historian. I've added another ref to support it. Happy to remove Wray's website if needed though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
• The two further reading sources don't need to be listed there as they're both being linked to as sources
  • Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Kj cheetham: - back to you. It's looking much better this time. Hog Farm _Talk 00:24, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: Thank you, I think I've answered all your points above now. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 14:14, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

View of Sundrum Castle

• ... that the 14th century Sundrum Castle was redeveloped in the 1990s and sold as a series of private residences? Source: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12314977.estate-that-beat-an-ancient-curse/
  • ALT0a: ... that the ancient Sundrum Castle (pictured) was redeveloped in the 1990s and split into three private residences for sale? Source: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12314977.estate-that-beat-an-ancient-curse/
  • ALT1: ... that the Hamiltons of Sundrum Castle (pictured) were involved in reducing the rent of William Burnes, father of the poet Robert Burns? Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20210506071916/http://sundrumcastle.com/history.html
  • ALT2: ... that the 14th century Sundrum Castle was erroneously referred to as Pictish in the poem "The Vision" by Robert Burns? Source: http://www.robertburns.org/works/90.shtml and https://ia902304.us.archive.org/35/items/historicaldescri00milluoft/historicaldescri00milluoft.pdf page 143
    • ALT2a: ... that the 14th century Sundrum Castle (pictured) was referred to as Pictish in the poem "The Vision" by Robert Burns, but this is only thought to be a legend? Source: http://www.robertburns.org/works/90.shtml and https://ia902304.us.archive.org/35/items/historicaldescri00milluoft/historicaldescri00milluoft.pdf page 143
  • ALT3: ... that the fall of Sundrum Castle (pictured) was alluded to in a poem by Robert Chambers in the 19th century and was later referred to as a curse? Source: https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/81375206?mode=transcription and https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12314977.estate-that-beat-an-ancient-curse/
  • Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by Kj cheetham (talk). Self-nominated at 11:04, 10 September 2022 (UTC).

Article meets the eligibility criteria (promoted to GA within seven days). It is long enough. I can't see any policy problems with the article, and the image is properly licensed. QPQ is yet to be done. Other than that, I have a few issues with the hooks:

• Hook 1: Minor point, but I was confused by what a "series of private residences" means. Is this referring to the fact that there are many homes, or that they were released piecemeal over time? The article and the hook should probably be reworded slightly to be more clear.
• Hook 2: The article says according to historian A. H. Millar, "this legend rests upon no reasonable foundation". Now this might just be me, but I'm not sure that quite implies tat the assertion in the poem was "erroneous". We know that there's no real basis for the claim, but that's not the same as saying the claim is false, is it? It might be true but we just have no evidence...
• Hook 3: I'm not seeing "and was later referred to as a curse" anywhere in the article. The Herald Scotland ref [25] is used three times, but none of those say anything in particular about curses.

@Kj cheetham: I'd suggest these three things be addressed, and then (once the QPQ is done) we can go with any of the three hooks, they're all quite interesting. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:09, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@Amakuru: Thank you for that, all good points. I've modified two of the hooks to address some of the issues, and added a mention of the curse to the article itself. I think you may have missed seeing the other hook about rent reduction though. Given it's only my 2nd ever DYK I believe I'm exempt from QPQ, apologies I should have included a comment about that. -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:46, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Amakuru, is there anything further I need to do with this? Thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 17:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

New reviewer needed to take over the review; previous one has not responded in over a month. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Kj cheetham: taking this review over. Good article! I'm going to assume good faith on the offline sources and proceed. Onegreatjoke (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think the original image would have worked. I uploaded a new version of it to commons which still isn't great, but it's a little better. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Poem by Robert Chambers

The article currently says that The fall of Sundrum from Cathcart ownership was alluded to in a poem by Robert Chambers in the 19th century, sourced to Chambers' Popular Rhymes of Scotland. It's not at all clear to me that this is in fact a poem by Chambers – though the subtitle of the book is "Original Poems", Chambers' preface appears to suggest that he has merely collected traditional rhymes. Are these actually his own compositions that he is presenting as traditional? If so, is there a better source which makes this clear? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:14, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Caeciliusinhorto-public I admit I hadn't read the preface before. I originally assumed it was by him based on the subtitle and https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/81374654?mode=transcription but looking more closely even the associated text on https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/81375206?mode=transcription implies he didn't write it as it's more like an analysis of it's meaning. I don't know of a better source to clarify, so perhaps it would be better to say something like "alluded to in a traditional poem published in a book by Robert Chambers in the 19th century" or similar? -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:02, 10 November 2022 (UTC)