Talk:Surinder Amarnath

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Surinder Amarnath

Eldest son of the legendary Lala Amarnath , Surinder Amarnath is one of the best Left handed batsman ever produced by india . An aggressive left hander of the 1970s , he had a huge fan following and the journalists often wrote about the raw deal he got by the selectors. Shashi Tharoor also mentioned once “ Surinder was naturally gifted and was just settling down in the Indian team before he was dropped from the side “ In his 12 Tests ( including the 2 against Srilanka ) he scored 2 hundreds and 4 Fifties . Having played most of his Tests abroad - he was settling down and was getting better and should have been persevered with. In india he had a 100% record . He scored 1 hundred and 3 fifties in the 4 Tests he played in India , but yet was most of the times dropped from the team due to selection politics whenever India played at home. Habibcricket (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

G'day, please provide the details of the source that you wish to use in the article (e.g. title of the article, date of publication, newspaper/journal name, page number, url etc). Also please state here exactly what wording you are proposing to the article. That will allow other page watchers to comment on your proposed addition. When wording your addition, please ensure that you are using neutral language and opinions are attributed clearly. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I have made it clear that most of the cricket lovers of the seventies who saw Surinder play admired his natural ability to strike the ball and when he was dropped they termed him as one of the best in the side who did not get his due - an unfulfilled genius . As I told you I have the article with me and give me the portal to share the picture of the same with all the watchers . This is strange , u don’t have a proper set up where pictures and proofs can be given and then u don’t allow people to word articles based on facts . You can’t brand a sportsperson just on the basis of numbers , greatness and talent is beyond numbers . Adam Gilchrist for example might not have as many centuries as Sourav Ganguly but was definitely a greater player than him .. now how do you define his greatness if u stick to numbers ? Habibcricket (talk) 19:28, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Articles on Wikipedia are written in a neutral tone, regardless of how great a particular player was. What you are referring to as "factual wording" here are considered to be in violation of WP:NPOV. Also "defining [anybody's] greatness" is not the purpose of Wikipedia. Dee03 00:14, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Habibcricket, if you would like to learn more about how to cite the article you are referring to please read Wikipedia:Citing sources. I am willing to help you format the reference if you are having trouble, but you will need to provide information such as the author name, publication name, date, title of the article, page numbers etc (as I said above and on my talk page). Some editors like to use templates such as {{cite news}} or {{cite web}} for instance, and you might find using them easier, too, rather than manually formatting a citation. The issue with uploading a picture of the news article is that most likely it is copyrighted, so it can't really be hosted here except under exceptional circumstances (for more detail please read WP:NFCC). I believe that it should be possible to work in some information similar to what you are talking about, so long as it is well sourced, clearly attributed, neutrally worded and does not go into too much detail. If you wish to achieve that, please draft the sentence or paragraph you wish to add here on the talk page, so that others can help you adjust it so that it complies with site requirements. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:50, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Well does Wikipedia have Surinder”s permission to write anything about him at all then? I’m sure you wouldn’t tell me that you don’t need permission because when you are writing about someone you do require permissions. Just because you are Wikipedia you cannot write about any individual without taken his or her consent . Habibcricket (talk) 19:17, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

You must answer this .. because in this case I am going to ask the Amarnath family to revert on this Habibcricket (talk) 20:28, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

G'day, if you are interested in understanding the process of contributing content, please read Wikipedia:Editing policy, WP:V, and WP:BLP. The last one relates to contributing to biographies of living persons and is probably your best guide to contributing to this article. Threats to engage in revert warring and recruiting others to engage in disruptive editing, however, is against site policy. If you wish to add a quote from a journalist, please provide the correct citation information and include it in a neutrally worded manner, as I have asked you above. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I already mentioned what writer Pratap Ramchand wrote and I highlighted his words .. He was a sports journalist most probably freelancer .. he said “ Surinder was a bit flashy but was a treat to watch when he got going and could destroy the best of attacks wen in full flow. Surinder was extremely talented but was harshly treated by the selectors” Habibcricket (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

And hence I would want to publish this quote as it’s not in my admiration for Surinder but something what a journalist had written during Surinder”s playing days some 35 years ago. Habibcricket (talk) 20:48, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

G'day, you seem to be missing the point about providing workable citations to satisfy the requirements of the site's verifiability requirements. I am not at all interested in this topic, but I am interested in making sure that information added to Wikipedia is referenced properly. As such, to assist you, I have added citations that I could find to some of the things you are trying to add, and I have attempted to reformat and rework your addition to make it more compliant with site policy. However, I could not find a reference for the comparison you included between Amarnath and Sobers. If you wish to add this back in, please provide the details of an appropriate source (e.g. a website, newspaper article, journal article or book) Just provide the details on this talk page and I will help you to work it into the article. Notwithstanding, please start listening to what I am saying about citations and neutral tone. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:40, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

MY Tone is neutral based on the views and articles of various journalists and sports lovers . You were quick to write about Surinder’s Tests in Newzeland after his debut but forgot to mention that he scored 2 back to back half centuries against England when almost the rest of them failed. You also forgot to mention that Surinder was second highest in batting average after Sunil Gavaskar on the entire tour of Pakistan which included a strokeful 144 against Sind and 68 in the Pakistan Test. Also he scored a classic 140 against a near English Team while playing in the Bengal in the Golden Juiblee match . In india his record is 100% successful and he was also the captain of the All India Schools or The Junior India Test Team. Just because I write he was one of the most talented of his time doesn’t mean it’s my admiration of him , ask anyone in India from that era and they will tell you What Surinder was. It is nothing but the truth. Habibcricket (talk) 20:47, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

“ EDIT REQUEST “

Good day , I am Digvijay Amarnath , son of Surinder Amarnath - Former Test Cricketer. I have been guided by the wikimedia legal team to write on this platform and express my concerns about this article as this is about my father. As per my legal team”s advice , I had written to the wikimedia legal team expressing my reservations on the way the article has been written about my father as this is detrimental towards his reputation for which he has spent most of his life.

The surface of any article gives a general impression about an individual as not everyone has the time to open the article and study the details in depth. Here too , the presentation and surface of the article does not do justice to his reputation for which he is well known in the Cricketing world. Though the article is based on certain facts , there are quite a few facts which have been ignored. Though my father played 10 Tests for the country , he was considered as one of the most talented cricketer of his time ( I am not saying this - this has been mentioned in many articles which are published on the internet and newspapers ) For example - Cricket Enthusiast Dr.Shashi Tharoor described him as one of the most exciting batsmen of his generation.

Similarly I have observed , that a statement of Cricket writer Pratap Ramchand has been published wherein Pratap Ramchand has described my father as a “ classy Left hander “ but that’s only half the statement - the original write up was “ Surinder Amarnath was a bit flashy but was a treat to watch when he got going and could decimate the best of attacks when in full flow “

If these important things go missing from the surface of an article of an important web platform like Wikipedia which appears first as you type a personality”s name in the Google Search box - it surely gives a wrong impression to the public. Hence I request the editors to edit the article and write the complete thing.

Please mention “ Surinder Amarnath is a former Test and first class cricketer. He played 10 Tests and 145 first class matches & made first class debut at the age of 15. Cricinfo Writer Pratap Ramchand described him as a classy left hander who was a treat to watch when in full flow and could decimate the best of attacks when in full flow though a was a bit flashy”

Please understand that this concerns someone’s reputation for which the individual has worked the entire life. While it is true that an article should be based on truth and facts , it is the responsibility of the editor to see to it that there is no harm to a persons reputation. The suggestion that I have given not only mentions the facts as desired by Wikipedia but also takes care of my father’s reputation. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dvasports (talk • contribs) 20:12, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the intro, almost all of that information is present. There is a condensed version of Ramchand's quotation. The count of first class matches is omitted, but his debut age is—although the cited source says he had not yet turned 15, so that's what the article says.

IMO, adding the longer quote would pull the article away from Wikipedia's recommended Manual of Style, so I am rejecting the request for change. —C.Fred (talk) 20:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

In case the longer quote pulls away Wikipedia’s recommended manual style , why not make it short and not add anything in terms of numbers and years in the intro like its being down for other cricketers ?

You could simply write - Surinder Amarnath is a former Indian Test and First Class Cricketer. He made his first class debut before he turned 15. His father Lala Amarnath was Independent India’s first captain while younger brother Mohinder was also a Test Player.

Then inside the article all the details about his debut year , writings & scores can be mentioned. I can provide you with authentic information in addition to what is there in the article and you could decide whether to add it . Dvasports (talk) 18:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

The introduction needs to cover what he is notable for, not his family members. thus, his father's and brother's achievements aren't relevant for the introduction, though they could be mentioned further down in the article. —C.Fred (talk) 19:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

True. So if we talk about what he was notable about and put put him apart from others was his aggressive style of batting and the ability to dominate the bowling which in that era was a rare thing in Indian cricket. The era of the 1970s had never seen T20 cricket and one day cricket too was not played too much. It was basically surrounded by test cricket and to play like that made him notable enough in public eye. Also , incase the introduction that I suggested to you contains most of the info that you would like to mention why not present it that way. It already contains facts as you said. But most importantly it mentions what he was notable about. My father wasn't just notable for the 10 Tests and 145 first class games that he played, he was known for aggressive way in which he played his cricket. Hence incase you would want a short intro with all details I suggest to you to edit it in a way where the facts are described along with what he is notable for and his reputation is preserved.

Surinder Amarnath is a Former Indian cricketer who played 10 Tests and 145 first class matches.cricinfo writer Pratap ramchand described him as an agressive batsman capable of destroying best of attacks when in full flow.

Even this would do as it is short and to the point. Later in the article the details as you rightly said can be mentioned Dvasports (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello , awaiting your revert on the discussion .. I myself have been travelling since the Cricket season is on and hence get delayed in my reverts .. I’m sure something must be keeping you busy too .. hoping for a revert soon . Thanks Dvasports (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done That is not how MOS:LEAD is written on Wikipedia. Cricket writers depict various players using superlatives and WP:FLOWERY terms; it is not Wikipedia's job to quote every statement made by every journalist ever. Dee03 16:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Well in this case kindly delete my father Surinder Amarnath”s article from this forum as we the family feel the presentation of this article is detrimental towards his reputation and this is a deliberate effort by some editors to do so .. in the event of which I wouldn’t give anyone the permission to continue defaming him this way. Either u present all cricketers in the way you have presented my father Surinder Amarnath or else please delete the article on Surinder Amarnath . Rules of wiki should be the same for all and cannot be selective . This is also the advice my legal team has given me as they are following our conversation and Wikipedia’s response closely. Thanks Dvasports (talk) 13:38, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

• kindly delete my father Surinder Amarnath”s article - I'm afraid that is not possible.
• Either u present all cricketers in the way you have presented my father Surinder Amarnath - All cricket bios are written like this one.
• This is also the advice my legal team has given me as they are following our conversation and Wikipedia’s response closely. - I am a volunteer and my reply should not be considered as "Wikipedia's response". Before you start issuing WP:LEGALTHREATS, let me warn you that doing so could lead to your account getting blocked. Dee03 16:16, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Well firstly , all cricket bios are not written like the one on my father . There is definitely a difference. To bring my father’s bio at par with others please edit all the cricket players intro & mention the year in which they started their first class and test career along with the year in which they played their last of such games. More so , please mention the number of Test matches too that each one has played . If this is done then truly it will be considered that the pattern of intro for all cricket players is the same . Currently , most of the players have these things missing.

Secondly , regarding the legal threats , please take note that these are in no way threats but apprising you of the facts from my end . I have no intention of threatening anyone .

Thirdly to cut it short .. I do not have any interest in you glorifying my father Surinder Amarnath but I am concerned that the presentation is different from that of other players and we consider it as detrimental towards my father’s reputation. It would be best to shut down this issue without much discussion . The least I can expect is either you bring the intro at par with other players or you may please edit it and present it in a simple way for instance -

Surinder Amarnath is a former Indian Test and First class cricketer. He played a total of 10 Tests and 145 first class matches & first came into prominence when he made his Ranji debut before he turned 15.

I believe that the above mentioned description doesn’t in anyway glorify my father and only presents the facts based on wikis policies. Nor have i quoted any journalist nor any quote mentioning Surinder Amarnath as a very talented or classy batsman .. it’s ok if those things are left out but at least the importantly there isn’t any damage to his reputation while taking care of the the facts as well . I hope u will agree with me on this Dvasports (talk) 18:14, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Lots of bios have career span mentioned in the lead; see Indrajitsinhji for an example. Your new suggestion sounds alright but can you explain how the current wording is causing "damage to his reputation"? Dee03 20:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

My father was basically notable for the kind of cricket he played. His ability to destroy bowling attacks in a indomitable & aggressive way was what people admired most. He used to play like t20 cricket in the era when even one dayers had not fully set in. This is the reason people spoke highly about his ability and the raw deal he received from the national selectors at that time.

The current intro , the way it has been presented mainly shows him as an ordinary cricketer by ignoring most of the things he was famous for & describing only the few limited things which do not reflect the entire truth. That’s why I suggested

You could please mention that he played 10 Tests and 145 first class . The other things can be mentioned in the later part of the article with the reasons . Like not many know he was in the Test Side in 1969 and then got a chance in 1976 .. so we the family feel that just focusing on the shortcomings without mentioning the kind of player he was would be injustice and detrimental towards his reputation . We do not want you to glorify him but please take care that the reputation isn’t damaged .. Dvasports (talk) 16:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The ten tests are mentioned in the intro. I don't see anything about being selected for the senior team in 1969, though. —C.Fred (talk) 16:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Well that’s what half the things you guys are not aware of ... he was 12th man in the test in 1969 and it was uncle Jimmy’s debut .. well I don’t want to have a controversy around my fathers article . Would request you to kindly add the career span in the later part of the article along with other details . The article intro can have a mention of the 145 first class games Dvasports (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

What is the published source that he was the twelfth? —C.Fred (talk) 17:18, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Well I don’t think this should be a problem unless there is someone who wants to control content . I’m not asking you to add some untruth but just asking you to present the article properly . I feel that if the career span for all cricketers is not mentioned in the intro , it shouldn’t be mentioned for my father as well especially when there is a story behind it which people are largely unaware of . It doesn’t matter if some of the bios have a career span the fact remains that most of the others don’t have that mention & in that sense it is not having the same rules for all . Many have a mention while many don’t which shouldn’t be done on a platform like wiki. Especially , I am Surinder Amarnath’s son and have every right to express my reservation on something which I feel is not right and is missing with other cricketers intro. You cannot be selective as I told you earlier . Well I am not asking you to add anything but plainly restructure what should be mentioned first and what later as in the later part many other details are mentioned Dvasports (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The introduction should summarize what is in the rest of the article. The most important information is highlighted—and for players with international caps, that's international (test) matches. —C.Fred (talk) 17:18, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Well it does summarise .. kindly write he played 10 test ( which u have ) and 145 first class games. Was in the test side in 1969 but made debut in 1976 . I am tired of this discussion . Tell me straight what u intend to do Dvasports (talk) 17:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

FC match count is added. Still waiting on which source verifies the 1969 selection. —C.Fred (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

If you do not know the history of cricket you should not be controlling content. This was an official match between India and Australia in 1969 . The match was played in Chennai ( then madras ) . Check with bcci on this if you wish . Just because the erstwhile matches are not on google , it doesn’t mean that they weren’t played. With such limited knowledge how can you write about anybody . Plus the fc match count need to be added in the intro . Again don’t be selective as it shows as if your paid for being biased. Other wise after so much of debate how are you not open to edit the intro . Kindly take of the career span or mention it in all players intro . That’s it. Be fair not selective . Dvasports (talk) 18:06, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

If you have a specific place to find it at the BCCI's website, that would help, rather than digging through all the 1969 records there. —C.Fred (talk) 18:08, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Delete the career span like it is missing in other players intro and also mention the fc match count in the beginning along with the 10 tests .. plus also give a mention of being in the test side in 1969 once you check with the bcci or any relevant authority that keeps records. Secondly , u do not know that he captained the Indian schoolboys team ( now Indian under 19 ) intro should have a summary of all this because this is what his career was -

10 tests 145 first class matches , selected for test in 1969 and made debut in 1976 . Was captain of junior India test team in the late 1960s Dvasports (talk) 18:13, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

The bcci website doesn’t keep records of the matches . The bcci scoring department has it all . You will have to check with them as this was an official test match Dvasports (talk) 18:15, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

If they don't keep records, how can I use that as a published source? —C.Fred (talk) 18:18, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I didn’t say they don’t keep records . I said their website may not have records . Their scoring department has it all . You may check with them & kindly summarise his career in a correct way - summary is incorrect and half incomplete with reference to the intro Dvasports (talk) 18:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

His intro has to mention that he played 145 first class matches and was captain of the junior India test team in the late 60s . Though Surinder made test debut in 1976 he was in the test team in 1969 Dvasports (talk) 18:35, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Where has their scoring department published the records? —C.Fred (talk) 21:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

That you will have to check with the BCCI .. Dvasports (talk) 18:38, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Kindly proceed with the appropriate intro edit and mention the 145 first class games & that he was the captain of the junior India test team in the late 1960s along with being in the test side in 1969 . You May verify these with the BCCI as these were all official matches of the BCCI .. just because you do not have access to the references it doesn’t mean that a player be deprived of the achievements he has made . I have already given you the road to find put all your queries Dvasports (talk) 18:42, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dvasports: WP:Verifiability says that claims need to be verified to a published reliable source. As you noted, BCCI does not have a published set of records for the 1969 test team, so there is nothing to verify it against. Thus, the article will not be changed to include the unverified assertion. —C.Fred (talk) 19:12, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all , all the facts that I mentioned are based on true events which have actually happened . Secondly , one the event happens in real life it shouldn’t matter wether one is able to locate where was it published . What is important is Wikipedia is based on true events. If you the editors want to control content it is your responsibility to verify what i told you. Thirdly , i never mentioned BCCI doesn’t have published records , I clearly said u need to check with them . Just because you are lazy enough to get in touch with them - I cannot allow my fathers content to be deleted which is as I told you based on true events . Dvasports (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dvasports: This is a good time for you to take a look at the essay Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth and the WP:Verifiability policy. We do not add events just because they actually happened. We need to be able to verify that they actually happened. The burden is on the editor attempting to add the material to provide the sources. If you are unwilling or unable to do that, you cannot expect to push that responsibility onto us.

Additionally, your last sentence is precisely why editors who have a conflict of interest—like you with this article—are discouraged from editing the articles where they have conflicts. You appear to be unable to put aside your feelings about the subject in order to comply with Wikipedia policies. —C.Fred (talk) 20:10, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

But by the way, BCCI has neither archives prior to 2012 nor a contact email address listed on their website. —C.Fred (talk)

Well - firstly if you are wanting to control content its your responsibility to verify wether the event actually happened or not .. there are events which May have happened even before you were born & I can understand if your lack of knowledge on the subject is coming from there. I have showed you a path which is contacting BCCI and I hope you don’t consider responsibilities as burdens as if you do so you don’t have the right to control a content in Wikipedia.

contact bcci on their official website - www.bcci.tv and check their email address .. I do not think i have to child feed am editor . Dvasports (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Also btw I have the published news paper cuttings in case that’s what your looking for Dvasports (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Ranji captain

Recently around a year back delhi and district cricket association hosted a function under the leadership of Retd justice Sen who was appointed administrator of DDCA by the Hon. High court of Delhi . This function was intended to honour all the players who captained Delhi in the Ranji trophy. Mr Surinder Amarnath was one of them who was honoured as he captained Delhi in 1980. The function was covered by various news papers also. Also , incase someone didn’t know - Surinder Amarnath was selected in the Test squad in 1969 against Australia in Chennai when brother Mohinder made Test debut but Surinder Amarnath was made 12th Man in that Test and made debut only in 1975-76 . This needs a mention in the intro as it is one of the things Surinder Amarnath is notable for in the world of Cricket Dvasports (talk) 19:16, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

@Dvasports: As you have been told repeatedly, we cannot mention the 1969 Test squad selection without a reliable source, which you have failed to provide. As for the function that Sen hosted, please provide links to the newspaper coverage so that independent editors can verify the claims. —C.Fred (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Well , as for the function I shall provide you the newspaper links but as for the 1969 Test , it’s a fact which you must verify for your satisfaction with the BCCI as If there is no published news about 1969 in 2020 I can’t help it & in any case published or not facts won’t change . Best you check with bcci as there is no authentic cricket body than bcci in india Dvasports (talk) 19:38, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

@Dvasports: If there is no published source, then we don't include it. It's not published at the BCCI site. I've even asked them, and I have not received a response about a published record. —C.Fred (talk) 23:23, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

The match was played . That’s the biggest real life event . Published or not , cannot change the facts. Period. Kindly check with them as they are the only one who can give u this information . Dvasports (talk) 04:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Delhi stalwarts honoured in star studded ddca function - The Hindu newspaper .

Read this on google Dvasports (talk) 04:41, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Published source on S Amarnath

Hi, I'm a cricket fan. I did contribute to wikipedia by editing some information i got from a published source but strangely one of the editors sammyrice reversed it.

It's one of the few published articles available on famous cricketer Surinder Amarnath.

His introduction should mention what he was notable for - his ability to diminish the best of bowling when in top flow. I agree with the fact that - wikipedia mentions what a person is famous for. Hence this can be part of his intro

What do you say? Promodonly (talk) 14:34, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

That sentence is in the body of the article. It doesn't need to be in the opening paragraph as well. Sammyrice (talk) 22:06, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Does Keeping it in the opening paragraph violate any policy of wikipedia ?

It may not be " Needed " But it's an essential quality of the player which i feel should be highlighted if it doesn't create any problem for anyone Promodonly (talk) 08:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Sammyrice awaiting your kind reply. Promodonly (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Go ahead with your edit. As long as you follow Wikipedia standards it will be fine. If not, somebody will tidy it up. Sammyrice (talk) 04:32, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Will keep in mind wikipedia standards. Promodonly (talk) 10:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi … @Sammyrice

hope I can go ahead with edit with your permission as discussed above .

Thanks 182.56.101.216 (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Please go ahead with your edit. Sammyrice (talk) 06:22, 17 November 2023 (UTC)