Talk:Svādhyāya

Manusmriti :RS

I have added references to three verses from Manusmriti. I possess a Hindi translation by a knowledgeable sanyāsi, which gives accurate meanings, but often these meanings are incomplete. On the other hand, there is an online version of G. Bühler's translation which is wrong in its definitions of key terms like anadhyāya (I am giving the accurate version from Hindi translation in italics within brackets):

(Mn.2.105):"Both when (one studies) the supplementary treatises ("upakaranas" of Vedas, i,e, Vedāngas) of the Veda, and when (one recites) the daily portion of the Veda ("svādhyāye chaiva naityaki" in Sanskrit which should be translated as 'in svādhyāya and in nityakarmas'), no regard need be paid to forbidden days ("anadhyaye",i.e, 'negligence' and not 'forbidden days' here; it is a special case according to the Hindi translator ) , likewise when (one repeats) the sacred texts required for a burnt oblation".

(Mn.2.106): There are no forbidden days for the daily recitation (naityaki should be translated as nityakarma and not as daily recitation) , since that is declared to be a Brahmasattra (an everlasting sacrifice offered to Brahman); at that the Veda takes the place of the burnt oblations, and it is meritorious (even), when (natural phenomena, requiring) a cessation of the Veda-study (anadhyaya) , take the place of the exclamation Vashat.

(Mn.2.107): For him who, being pure and controlling his organs, during a year daily recites the Veda (svādhyāya) according to the rule, that (daily recitation) will ever cause sweet and sour milk, clarified butter and honey to flow.

Bühler gives a tolerable meaning for (Mn.2.107), but in (Mn.2.106) 'naityaki has been translated in such a way that its meaning conflicts with that of svādhyāya. But in (Mn.2.106) he gives a true meaning of anadhyaya, while in (Mn.2.105) he imposes this same literal meaning which renders the passage meaningless : if svādhyāya cannot be stopped on anadhyaya days as Bühler says in (Mn.2.105), does it not conflict with his meaning of anadhyaya as 'a cessation of the Veda-study' as given in (Mn.2.106)? Bühler took liberties with many technical terms of Hinduism. Please help in finding better secondary English sources for Manusmriti. Vinay Jha 08:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I am going to begin looking for what I would consider a WP:RS both for the Sanskrit text and English translation of MS, and hope to have something within a few weeks. For purposes of the article, I would avoid getting into the complexities of non-recitation days, because opinions vary about them and they are not central to the article. Simply finding any English secondary sources that discuss them is the first challenge. Because many of the authors do not use the Vedic recitation meaning for svādhyāya, they use that them and then proceed to discuss general issues of study. Buddhipriya 06:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Opinions about the definition of non-recitation days do not differ, even Bühler gives accurate meaning, he takes liberties making in tranalations. I think MW is WP:RS for technical definitions of such terms and there is no need to waste time, although you may search for better translations if you like. Bühler's mistakes may be omitted as minority opinion conflicting with MW which is regarded by the majority. -Vinay Jha 07:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

SAYANA's RV commentary

I found following information on a French website (http://www.eklectic-librairie.com/OccasionSanskrit.htm) :

SAYANACARYA (commentateur) RGVEDA-SAMITHA - 5 volumes, en sanskrit seulement Published by N.S Sontakke & T.N Dharmadhikari Secretaries, 1972 120 euros (+ port) Assez bon état XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Another interesting book is from https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no37823.htm (Only selected hymns have been published):

Hymns from the Rgveda : Samhita Text/Peter Peterson. Edited by R. Zimmermann. Reprint. Delhi, Bharatiya Kala Prakashan, 2004, xi, 419 p., $36. ISBN 81-8090-061-4.

One can get details from the website given above. I fear this book will not help in present article. -Vinay Jha 11:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately my French is very poor. ISBN 8180900614 edited by Zimmermann is listed on Amazon.com but apparently not many copies are available. It does look like an interesting item, but I agree that it is may not be a key resource for this article. Buddhipriya 06:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"en sanskrit seulement" means 'in Sanskrit only'. This edition has no difference with Pune edition, but if you mention this edition also Western readers will not cast doubts about the reliability of Pune edition of Sayana's commentary. Since there is no English translation of Sayana's commentary on RV, I think this will be the best choice. -

It may be a good choice for the Sanskrit source, but the problem is that you cannot just quote primary sources in Sanskrit on Wikipedia. A reliable secondary WP:RS must be used to establish what primary sources say. If an English source can be found, it should be given priority over a source not in English. We cannot cite primary sources to build a case, as that is WP:OR. Buddhipriya 07:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned this edition of france because you wanted proofs of Pune edition for skeptical readers. Sayana's commentary is not needed at all for this article, only his INTRODUCTION is needed, which is available in Sanskrit, German and Hindi only. For English, you can take help from Hindi edition and MW for translating key words yourself ; only a few words need to be be translated, or at most a whole sentence, which is not difficult. -Vinay Jha 12:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hindi Translation of Sayan's Introduction to RV

Book Title : Rgveda-bhashya-bhoomika Hindi Commentator : Jagannath Pathak Publisher : Chowkhamba Vidyabhawan, Chowk, PO Box 1069,Varanasi-1

This book is the only readily available source for students of Veda in Sanskrit universities, all of which have prescribed 'Sayan's Introduction to RV' in the syllabus for post-graduation. This commentator's personal opinions are often wrong, but his translation of Sayan is reliable, provided Sayan's version is before one for comparison. -Vinay Jha 11:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

A French book titled 'THE SVADHYAYA'

Charles MALAMOUD ( traduction et commentaire) Le Svadhyaya- récitation personnelle du véda. Taittiriya- Aranyaka livre2 Institut de Civilisation Indienne, Fascicule 42 Ed. E.de BOCCARD, 247 p, 1977 17 euros Très bon état

"THE SVADHYAYA: THE RITUAL OF THE SCHOLAR" as "Just as the social form of the transmission of the Veda during the Sutra Period"

-Vinay Jha 11:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yogi's Version of Svadhyaya

Swami Krishnananda,The Divine Life Society,Sivananda Ashram, Rishikesh, India, http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/patanjali/raja_53.html gives a good account of yogic meaning of svādhyāya as practised by sincere students of Yoga:

"A daily recitation—with the understanding of the meaning—of such hymns as the Purusha Sukta from the Veda, for instance, is a great svadhyaya, as Vachaspati Mishra, the commentator on the Yoga Sutras, mentions(1ooo years ago)." (Traditionally, the most prominent commentary on Patanjali's Yogasutra is that of Vyasa, to whose work Vachaspati Misra has contributed an explanation of Vyasa's commentary.)

"There are various other methods of svadhyaya. It depends upon the state of one’s mind—how far it is concentrated, how far it is distracted, what these desires are that have remained frustrated inside, what the desires are that have been overcome, and so on. The quality of the mind will determine the type of svadhyaya that one has to practise. If nothing else is possible, do parayana of holy scriptures—the Sundara Kanda, the Valmiki Ramayana or any other Ramayana, the Srimad Bhagavata Mahapurana, the Srimad Bhagavadgita, the Moksha Dharma Parva of the Mahabharata, the Vishnu Purana, or any other suitable spiritual text. It has to be recited again and again, every day at a specific time, in a prescribed manner, so that this sadhana itself becomes a sort of meditation—because what is meditation but hammering the mind, again and again, into a single idea? Inasmuch as abstract meditations are difficult for beginners, these more concrete forms of it are suggested. There are people who recite the Ramayana or the Srimad Bhagavata 108 times. They conduct Bhagvat Saptaha. The purpose is to bring the mind around to a circumscribed form of function and not allow it to roam about on the objects of sense."

"If a continued or sustained study of such scriptures is practised, it is purifying. It is a tapas by itself, and it is a study of the nature of one’s own Self, ultimately. The word ‘sva’ is used here to designate this process of study —svadhyaya. ... The purpose of every sadhana is only this much: to bring the mind back to its original source."

"Sometimes it is held that japa of a mantra also is a part of svadhyaya. That is a more concentrated form of it, requiring greater willpower. ... Adepts in yoga often tell us that the chanting of a mantra like pranava is tantamount to svadhyaya."

Athvale's Parivar merits a brief reference in a section 'modern uses of svadhyaya'. -Vinay Jha 11:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I recommend against the use of web sites as sources for this article. Most of them cite no WP:RS and thus cannot qualify as WP:RS themselves, as their content is dubious. Also, making links to religious organization is a form of advertising for those organizations. I think we can source the general meaning as "study" from books I have on hand. Since the term appears in the Gita and in the Yoga Sutras, any published commentary in English on those works is likely to have a comment on it. I have several such on hand but have not had time to enter them. In general I think that the best sources are books, published by major publishing houses or by major religious figures whose own notability is not easily disputed. Buddhipriya 07:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to cite websites. Vyās-bhāshya, Yogavārtika by Vijnānabhikshu, Bhojvritti , and commentary by Vāchaspati MIshra of 10th century AD are standard Sanskrit commentaries of Patanjali's Yogasutra, and there is a very good Hindi commentary by Gitā Press of Gorakhpur based on these Sanskrit commentaries. This Hindi commentary was written by a real Yogi who was also a scholar. I suggested the above website only because it gives the true meaning of svādhyāya as actually practised by practising Yogis. For subjects like Yoga I do not rely upon English translators or commentators, but there are many whom you may search out yourself. -Vinay Jha 12:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I previously mentioned the issue of using English sources, but once again here is a summary of the policy of WP:V on use of such material.

Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly.

Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.

Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:

• Where sources are directly quoted, published translations are generally preferred over editors performing their own translations directly.
• Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation.

In a nutshell, we must strive to find reliable secondary sources in English and should avoid doing our own translations, however tempting that may be. Buddhipriya 21:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You are wasting words by repeating them, I know these policies. I told you the names of world's best commentaries on Yoga, but I do not possess their English translations. You may search for the following :

• (1)Vyasbhashya, edit. Vasudeva Sharma Panasikara,Uska Hindi Anuvad Tatha Suvishad Vyakhya,(find on South Asia Books website)
• (2)Bhojvritti : perhaps not available in English.
• (3)Yogavartika : type 'Yogavartika' in google search and you will find many(e.g., T S Rukmani's). -Vinay Jha 22:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)