Talk:Svetlana Alexievich

"Investigative journalist" - why?

Why is she described as an "investigative journalist"? From the rest of the description, "author" seems to be more accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketil (talk • contribs) 10:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

: A criticism of HBO's Chernobyl series ([[1]]) disputes this status, and in any case, the link between the series and Alexievich should perhaps be mentioned? Ketil (talk) 10:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Ukrainian incident

Here is a description of it in English language source: [2]. Yes, there was a threat, but given that the posting was removed from the website a few hours later, I wold say that was probably just a minor incident - for a BLP page of the Nobel prize winner. Hence undue on this page. Including this here seems to me like a content that only belongs to the page about the website, not this page, if it belongs anywhere at all. My very best wishes (talk) 18:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Considering that the event was indeed canceled, considering that the website in question (Myrotvorets) is connected with the upper echelons of the Ukrainian state, considering that the website has been famous worldwide for very controversial issues, such as the publication of personal data about journalists from all over the world who were giving media coverage to the war of the Donbass (RS [3]), considering that the website has blacklisted several international artists branded as "enemies of Ukraine", yes, I think the case is noteworthy.--Mhorg (talk) 19:14, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

"considering that the website has been famous worldwide for very controversial issues", "considering that the website has blacklisted several international artists". Yes, I agree, but it means such info belongs to the page about the website itself. Are we going to post BS propagated by this website to BLP pages of all people they would like to defame? Of course not. My very best wishes (talk) 19:19, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

It is not just about defamation, but about putting people in danger by luring them against ultra-nationalist gangs. It is precisely in this way that people like Sergatskova[4] had to flee Ukraine (if they weren't killed first). Alexievich was not simply defamed, otherwise she would not have canceled the event. It was canceled due to security concerns.--Mhorg (talk) 19:37, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

True. Then let me rephrase: are we going to post all well sourced threats by this website to BLP pages of all people they have threatened? That is real threat to be included and described on the page, and it is indeed highly relevant to her biography. My very best wishes (talk) 19:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Please add this case as well, but do not remove controversial elements about the Ukrainian state worth noting and reported on RS.--Mhorg (talk) 07:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

This is not a proper page to post "controversial elements about the Ukrainian state" (yes, that is what you do). This is a BLP page where one should "Summarize how actions and achievements are characterized by reliable sources without giving undue weight to recent events". But I have already explained this to you [5]. My very best wishes (talk) 15:49, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

It is a controversial issue of the Ukrainian state which endangered Alexievich, noteworthy, to read the seriousness of the situation: cancel an event with threats from nationalist gangs. This is a quite common content on many BLPs.--Mhorg (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

You added such content about Mirotvorets to several pages. I asked above: "are we going to post all well sourced threats by this website to BLP pages of all people they have threatened?" I assume your answer is "yes"? A threatening website post was sitting out there for a few hours. The author cancelled a trip out of abundance of caution. Making a big deal about it on a BLP page of the Nobel Prize winner - do you really believe this is "due" on this page? My very best wishes (talk) 16:20, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I think that all the article of people who have been reported by the website, and that the report has had some form of consequence, especially if reported by RS, should have a small info about that. In the case of Alexevich it seems to me a very serious event, since it is the same modality that led to murders and to people who had to escape from the country.--Mhorg (talk) 16:35, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

You are picking up random old news of your choice, yes the "controversial elements about the Ukrainian state". How about using good detailed reviews on the subject of this page by experts, such as this big article] about Aleksievich by Masha Gessen? My very best wishes (talk) 16:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I am editing the Myrotvorets page and I have noticed this controversial case involving Alexievich. I'm just taking care of the things I am an quite expert on. I really don't understand your suggestions, you always keep bringing examples from other sources on other topics. Please, feel free to add contents if you think it is relevant.--Mhorg (talk) 17:06, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Not every "controversial case" involving a living person belongs to their BLP page - per WP:BLP. Which cases do belong because they are notable? Those described in good secondary sources, preferably review articles about the person. And we have many such reviews about this person. For example, if this incident would appear in review article by Gessen (see above), that would be an argument it is due on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 17:26, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Please also note this WP:BLP rule [6]. In addition to be "undue", this is a content fork (you included same text here [7]). Moreover, this is not about her involvement in politics. This should be made a separate section entitled "Posting on website Mirotvorets". Totally does not belong to the page. My very best wishes (talk) 22:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

• [8] - Not again, please. My very best wishes (talk) 05:53, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  Actually I hadn't seen this discussion until now and I didn't know that @Mhorg had already tried to publish this [9] and was reverted by you [10], otherwise I wouldn't have written everything from scratch [11] with different sources: Mhorg had La Repubblica [12], I have Deutsche Welle [13], Al Jazeera [14] and the primary source Myrotvorets [15] per WP:SELFSOURCE. Apparently there's already a rough consensus for inclusion.

  With regard to your revert [16], I don't want to promote this ridiculous website and I don't think that that website is "ridiculous" but rather alarming if not dangerous. WP:DUE WEIGHT is shown by the good coverage: apart from the quoted sources, there's also The Times [17], Foreign Policy [18], The Nation [19], The Ukrainian Weekly [20]. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:44, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

No, this is fully explained above. This minor incident is of no significance for the BLP page of the Nobel Prize winner. Make an RfC if you wish. Please see Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Restoring_deleted_content. My very best wishes (talk) 20:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

And once again, exactly same material is currently included to page Myrotvorets. This is also a content fork. My very best wishes (talk) 20:22, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Are you the IP that reverted here [21]? If so, I suggest you self-revert otherwise it might appear as a case of WP:SOCK. As for your (and the IP address's) concern about BLP, I don't think that BLP raises the consensus threshold for inclusion - it makes specific provisions for contentious and poorly sourced materials. But the content here is not poorly sourced nor is it contentious, it doesn't affect the NPOV of the article in any way, it doesn't diminish or glorify the subject, and since we already have a section on political activism, it fits in there without unbalancing the article - it's just an information that may be of interest to those who want to learn about Alexievich and here views and activities. The reason why you're opposing is not related to BLP concerns but is your concern not to spread information that could damage Ukraine's reputation. Or am I wrong? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you are wrong. As I explained already on another similar page [22], pushing content about Mirotvorets on multiple WP pages (and especially ones that belong to famous people) looks pretty much as an effort to unduly promote this ridiculous site and defame their targets. Are you going to include the same to pages Gerhard Schröder and Zoran Milanović? No? But then why here? My very best wishes (talk) 21:31, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, if and when Schröder or Milanović or, why not?, Viktor Orbán will cancel a public event claiming that they feel threatened because they've been included in the Myrotvorets database (as Svetlana Alexievich did), if and when they will release an interview lamenting that they've been included in a "kill list that is supported by the Ukrainian government" (as Roger Waters did) then yes, I (or some other user, no doubt) will add this info to their articles, provided that it is reported by a fair amount of RSs and is therefore DUE (as in the cases of Svetlana Alexievich and Roger Waters). Don't you see that this silly nationalist editing is preventing the normal development of the encyclopaedia? Adding this kind of content is the normal thing editors do all the time. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:55, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

My reasoning above has absolutely nothing to do with nationalistic editing or with Ukraine. For the same reasons I am against including this to BLP pages of Schröder and Milanović. Cancelling an event or a visit is not anything so significant for someone who does them by hundreds. My very best wishes (talk) 01:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

This was a very serious event, reported in many reliable first-class sources. Adding it to the article would be fair. Mhorg (talk) 15:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Please see WP:ONUS. A lot was published about every famous person. How and why it is significant for her biography? Did this incident affected her writings? Did it change her views about Ukraine? My very best wishes (talk) 15:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

As far as I understand, what is significant and further justifies inclusion of the proposed content is that this fact (being threatened and having to cancel a public event in Odesa) did not change her views on Ukraine, which is praiseworthy. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Once again, just canceling a visit/an event (that is what appears in your edit [23]) does not deserve inclusion to the biography of the Nobel Prize winner because she had many hundreds of such events. Yes, such incident may reflect poorly on the reputation of website Mirotvorets or even Ukrainian government if, as you say, it is government-connected. But then it belongs to page Mirotorets (where it is already included). My very best wishes (talk) 17:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Books

I believe that

original editions

English translations

are acceptable. Now the section is unreadable.Xx236 (talk) 10:25, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Is it necessary to include every translation and/or edition of Alexeivich's work that has been published? She has written six books. Do we really need 67 entries? SchrodingersMinou (talk) 06:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Self-hater

After reading this excerpt of hers, I lost much of respect to her:

У нас, у беларусов, нет Толстого. Нет Пушкина. А есть Янка Купала... Якуб Колос: «Мой родны кут! Як ты мне мілы...» Мы люди земли, а не неба. Наша монокультура - картошка, мы ее копаем, садим, и все время в землю глядим. Долу! А если вскинет человек голову, то не выше аистиного гнезда. Ему это уже и высоко, это и есть для него небо. А неба, которое зовется космосом, у нас нет, в нашем сознании оно отсутствует. Тогда мы берем что-то в русской культуре, в польской. Вот когда у нас появятся Толстой или Пушкин, мы поймем что-то в себе. Так норвежцам нужен был Григ, а евреям Шолом-Алейхем, как центр кристаллизации, вокруг чего они смогли объединиться и осознать самих себя.

We, Belarusians, have no Tolstoy. No Pushkin. But we have Yanka Kupala... Jakub Kolos: "My native land! How dear you are to me..." We are people of the earth, not the sky. Our monoculture is potatoes, we dig them, plant them, and all the time we look at the ground. Down! And if a person raises his head, it is not higher than a stork's nest. For him, this is already high, this is the sky. But the sky, which is called space, we do not have, it is absent from our consciousness. Then we take something from Russian culture, from Polish. Only when we have Tolstoy or Pushkin, we will understand something in ourselves. So the Norwegians needed Grieg, and the Jews Sholem Aleichem, as a center of crystallization, around which they could unite and realize themselves.

I genuinely fail to see how Yakub Kolas and multitudes of other Belarusian writers are inferior to Sholem Aleichem. Her ignorance and disrespect of Belarusian culture (and agriculture) is appalling. Heck, she even cannot spell correctly the name of Yakub Kolas. --Altenmann >talk 20:56, 5 October 2024 (UTC)