Talk:Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths

The Victorian Turkish baths at Swindon, the oldest continually running Turkish baths in the UK (and probably in the world) are the only Turkish baths which do not have a page on Wikipedia.

In order that this this historically important bath (still open, though currently closed for refurbishment) does not remain the only bath still open not to have a page of its own, I am uploading a temporary mini-page until it re-opens—or earlier if someone else wishes to edit and enlarge it.

Further images will be added as soon as Wiki Commons decides on an appropriate category for them.

I have not added a category as the only ones I can think of are 'Victorian Turkish baths' 'Hot-air baths' 'bathing' and 'Swindon' (in that order) and none seems to exist. If I knew how, I would have 'Hot-air baths' as parent, with 'Victorian Turkish baths' 'Hammam' 'sauna' 'sento', etc as categories. But I have no idea how to set this in motion.

Comments and suggestions welcome.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishpoloni (talk • contribs) 19:39, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Ishpoloni. I've added the article to a couple of categories. I think it would also benefit from being added to a couple of relevant Wikiprojects. Could you expand to explain what Health Hydro is? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:22, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

In the 19th century a [health] hydropathic establishment provided hydropathic treatments. Much of this later developed into modern hydrotherapy. This is not one of my areas of expertise, but the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrotherapy seems exceptionally good.

That may not be quite what you asked, but in the 21st century terms such as health hydros, health spas, day spas, wellbeing spas, and countless others, are all terms dreamt up by advertisers wishing to sell their brand of treatment, nowadays frequently including very expensive beauty treatments.

As a long retired librarian with much classification experience, my initial reaction would be a parent category 'Baths and bathing' leading to, eg, hot-air baths, which leads to such as Hammam, Sento, sauna, banya, Victorian Turkish baths, etc. The Victorian Turkish bath is a very specifically defined entity. The generally misused 'Turkish baths' will definitely not do, neither is it an American style 'Bath house' (often implying gay sauna), nor is is a Public Bath (in the generally accepted understanding of the term, ie, baths and swimming pools).

Hope this helps a little.Ishpoloni (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I am attempting to create an article about the Swindon Health Hydro, which houses Victorian Turkish Baths, though these are only one part of the building. There are also two swimming pools and an extensive 'dry side', which ,historically, has hosted a range of medical services. I would be happy to link this article to any relevant articles on Turkish Baths or Hydrotherapy. The Swindon Health Hydro is called the Swindon Health Hydro and it would be impossible to avoid the term, whatever its marketing background - whether I can define the term is another matter. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 11:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Progress report

This page no longer relies on a single source and I hope that this banner can now be removed from the page. It has been compiled in a relatively short time so it may well contain errors which need to be corrected. There will also be gaps as it is difficult for a newbie to determine how much should be include without the page becoming unwieldly. I will therefore be grateful for any comments on any aspect of the page with a view to improving it in due course. Ishpoloni (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Victorian or Victorian-style?

This is a difficult one to get right! I have reverted back to Victorian Turkish baths since this article is not about the current building, but about the oldest continuously running Victorian Turkish baths institution in the world. This is the USP of the article which has been in two buildings and under several managements, but is still the original institution. The original baths were Victorian Turkish baths just as their current location is a Victorian-style Turkish baths. And, as I understand it, the lead should embolden the title of the article, not a variation of it. The Listed Building as a whole, the GWR Medical Society Fund, and the Swindon Health Hydro, should ideally all have articles of their own—which I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to compile—but, in my view, this article is not the place for any more than mentions of them. Ishpoloni (talk) 14:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Accept now the need to say 'Victorian', rather than 'Victorian-style'. I now see it in the context of the Victorian Turkish Baths movement. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 11:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Draft:Swindon Health Hydro into Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths

Please review draft to compare and combine. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This would only work if the existing article were first renamed 'Swindon Health Hydro' or 'Swindon Health Hydro, Also Known as Milton Road Baths'. 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' is an entity that doesn't exist and that no-one in Swindon would recognise. One point is that the Turkish Baths are Victorian in style but Edwardian in origin, built in 1904-05. The bigger point is that if we are to have an article about the whole Health Hydro complex it needs to have a title that reflects the content. The current article does not mention the large and small swimming pools nor the 'dry side' (three quarters of the building) that housed medical facilities - GP surgery, dispensary, dentistry, dental laboratory, prosthetics, psychology, opthalmology, chiropody and physiotherapy. I would be happy to incorporate the existing article into an article about the whole Health Hydro but there is no point if its current name is retained. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The existing article is about the Turkish Baths that are just one part of the Health Hydro. There are also two swimming pools and a 'dry side' that once hosted a GP practice, a dispensary, a dentists, a dental surgery, prosthetics, ophthalmology, chiropody, psychology and physiotherapy departments. My article is intended to cover the whole history of the building from 1891 to the present day, the grade II* listing, building materials and features, the breadth of the medical services offered and the inspiration for the NHS. Also the recent developments relating to restoration projects and management of the building. If I merge all this into the existing article there will be two issues - the article will have the inappropriate title 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' and the existing article's information about the Turkish Baths will be only a small part of the revised article. I've noticed that the author of the existing article has a particular interest in Turkish Baths and has created multiple articles on the subject. I would now like the title of my article to be 'Swindon Health Hydro, also known as Milton Road Baths' - the Hydro's official name used to be Milton Road Baths and many people in Swindon still refer to to it as that. If the article has to be called 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' there will be no point in my doing any work on this at all. I had hoped to create a new article and cross-reference the existing article. I fear that the massive changes I would make to that article would upset those who have concentrated on Turkish Baths - have they been asked how they would feel about the Turkish Baths being swallowed up in this way?

If you insist that we keep with just one article named 'Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths' then this important building will not be represented in Wikipedia. There is no point my doing the hours of necessary work on an article whose title will mean nothing to anyone in Swindon and will simply be lost to sight.

Mydaemonthirst (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

My main fear is that there will never be a Wikipedia page about the Swindon Health Hydro. Amending an article that's just about the Turkish Baths won't cut the mustard. Apart from anything else, other users would be justified in deleting most of what I'd added, as not being relevant to the subject of the article. Also, other people with an interest in the Health Hydro will not find or update a page that's not about the Health Hydro as a whole. The point of a wiki is that multiple people can contribute to the subject - this will be utterly defeated if the only article is just about the Turkish Baths. Could there be a compromise title such as 'Swindon Health Hydro, also known as Milton Road Baths - including the Victorian Turkish Baths'? That's getting to be a bit of a mouthful but users looking for Health Hydro or Milton Road Baths or Turkish Baths would all be able to find the article. I know I said that the Turkish Baths were not really Victorian but they were designed in Victorian times and construction started just three years after Queen Victoria's death, so I think it's an issue that's not worth pushing.

With an appropriate title, I would be happy to integrate the information I want to add with the information in the existing article. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 13:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

100% against the merge.

I have not seen any mention by anyone that there should be 'just one article named "Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths" '

In fact I would personally prefer the article to be called "Victorian Turkish baths, Swindon" (allowing also a "Victorian Turkish baths, Dublin" instead of the current "Turkish Baths, Lincoln Place") or even "Turkish baths, Swindon"—though that would automatically be redirected to Hammam, irrespective of the fact that that would be nonsensical. But this seems to be considered a relatively minor issue.

Much more importantly, I think the draft of the article on the health hydro is a very good start for two separate articles: one on the Medical Fund Society and the history of its many services and facilities, and the other on the building as an architectural construction. The first of these deserves to be on its own as part of the social history of the medical services which led to the NHS.

The article on the Turkish baths was written as one local part of the history of a Victorian British institution, the Victorian Turkish Bath Movement, started in 1856 in Ireland on now almost dead. There are currently no plans to reopen Swindon's Turkish baths—a decision which, given the uniqueness of the Turkish baths institution connection with Swindon, seems to shame the town as the home of English Heritage and the National Trust Ishpoloni (talk) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The Turkish Baths in the Swindon Health Hydro will be reopened in 2025. They are only closed temporarily while the building is being refurbished, including the installation of new plant for heating the large pool and the Turkish Baths. The statement that the Turkish Baths are closed permanently is entirely wrong. When the Turkish is reopened next year I can let you know - perhaps you will want to take a look in the Health Hydro as it is now. There is a further phase of refurbishment planned for the large pool hall but the building as a whole and the Turkish Baths are very much in need of further refurbishment.

I do not see how you can separate the story of the building from the story of the services it has provided. The one was created to serve the other. The swimming pools, Turkish Baths and wash baths were seen as part of the health delivery that also included the range of medical services on the dry side (doctors; a dispensary; dental surgeries and dental laboratory; ophthalmology, chiropody, psychology and physiotherapy departments). The services provided in the building did not stop when the Medical Fund Society ended. There was a period, into the 1980s, when the NHS had a presence in the shape of a GP practice and a dispensary (I think there may have been more than this but I haven't dug that out yet). In the 1980s (precise details still to be uncovered) the NHS services were moved to Carfax Street in Swindon. Complementary medical offerings were brought into the building (Well Woman clinic, acupuncture, sports massage, Weight Watchers, etc). At different times there were a café, a small theatre group and different community groups. The whole period from 1947 to the recent past will need research to gather accurate details and back them up with references.

I can see the need to link the relevant elements of a combined article to the articles on other Victorian Turkish Baths and I can see now why it needs to be called Victorian Turkish Baths. I would want it to be possible for Wikipedia users to find the Health Hydro (formerly known as Milton Road Baths) and the Turkish Baths and to read and improve the article. It's a big subject and the first version would certainly have gaps.

I am trying to put together the story of the Swindon Health Hydro, not the story of the Medical Fund Society. The MFS was integral to the history of the building from 1891 to 1947. But it predated the building by nearly 50 years and it also operated the cottage hospital (now the Central Community Centre) and other services located elsewhere, such as a funeral service.

I would like to see a combined article named 'Swindon Health Hydro (formerly known as Milton Road Baths) - including Victorian Turkish Baths'. That way anyone looking for Health Hydro, Milton Road Baths or Turkish Baths would be able to find the article. Many people in Swindon still call the building Milton Road Baths. It would be linked to the 'Victorian Turkish baths' article.

Please specify what articles you want us to end up with. I am not interested in writing an article on the Medical Fund Society and I do not want to write a separate article about the building divorced from the services it has provided. The story of the Health Hydro is about both the building and the services - the two go hand in hand. Please let us find a way to cover the stories of both the Swindon Health Hydro and the Victorian Turkish Baths movement. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 11:07, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I will reply to the main body of the above (only a part of which I disagree with) over the weekend when I have read it properly. In the meantime, I don't think I said that the baths are closed permanently. I think I wrote that there are currently no plans to reopen the Turkish bath. No one will be happier than me if I am proved wrong. Perhaps you could show me the document (or indicate where it can be found) which states that the Turkish baths will re-open. There's certainly no mention of it on the Hydro web page. Ishpoloni (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The Turkish Baths were closed because the whole building was closed last year for refurbishment that includes replacing the plant that heats the large pool and the Turkish Baths. When the building is reopened next year the Turkish Baths will be reopened. There have been no plans to close the Turkish. Show me where it says that the Turkish Baths will not reopen. The draft page about the Health Hydro is incomplete - it's a draft and meant to be a starting point. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 15:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Robert - I've tried, outside of Wikipedia, to combine the Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths page with the Health Hydro page and it ends up a mess. There are a number of issues, including:

- the Turkish Baths article includes quite a lot of detail pre-1891. This would force a lot of other detail to be added for that period.

- the Turkish Baths element would be drowned out when the whole history of the Health Hydro from 1891 to the present day is included. That would be unhelpful to those specifically interested in the Victorian Turkish Baths movement

- there would be no point working on an article whose title gives no hint as to its primary content

- the necessary structure of an article covering the whole building would necessitate chopping up the Turkish Baths article and placing bits of it here and there.

I now think that my original plan of creating a separate article for the Health Hydro (which I'd like to be named 'Swindon Health Hydro, formerly known as Milton Road Baths') cross-referenced to Swindon Victorian Turkish Baths makes the best sense.

I will continue to work on an article about the history of the Health Hydro. If needs be I will host it just locally in Swindon but it is a building of national importance that should have a place in Wikipedia. The draft article would need to be greatly expanded, as there are significant gaps. Mydaemonthirst (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)