Talk:Sylvia Ashby

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Sylvia Rose Ashby, an Australian market researcher, was once threatened with arrest if she did not stop surveying popular opinion on the Second World War? Source: Crawford, Robert (19 October 2019), "A Matter of Trust: The Ashby Research Service and the Business of Market Research", Australian Economic History Review, John Wiley & Sons Australia, Ltd, pp. 8–9, doi:10.1111/aehr.12183, ISSN 0004-8992; citing Ashby, Sylvia (1978). McNair, William A.; Larbalestier, M. E. C. (eds.). Some Reflections on the First Fifty Years of Market Research in Australia 1928–1978. Sydney: Market Research Society of Australia, NSW Division. p. 27.

Created by Chris.sherlock (talk). Self-nominated at 02:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC).

• New enough, long enough, neutrally written, no close paraphrasing seen in online sources. Images are fair use. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits. Hook is interesting; I just tightened the hook with some commas. Offline hook ref AGF and cited inline. I'm just wondering what those squiggles are at the beginning of each footnote? Yoninah (talk) 23:34, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

They are note labels that link to the source in the bibliography. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 01:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• @Chris.sherlock: Oh, now I see. Could you fix that red-line tag in the references please? Yoninah (talk) 10:33, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Fixed :-) - Chris.sherlock (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 10:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Potential sources

• Murray, Goot (1993). "Ashby, Sylvia Rose (1908–1978)". Australian Dictionary of Biography. Vol. 13. Canberra: National Centre of Biography, Australian National University. ISBN 978-0-522-84459-7. ISSN 1833-7538. OCLC 70677943. Retrieved 2020-03-12.
• Dictionary of Sydney
• Ashby Research Service
• http://popcaanz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/BUSINESS_Riley-2016_Sylvia-Ashby.pdf

Newspaper articles

• "Interested in your reactions". Tweed Daily. Murwillumbah. 7 March 1949. p. 3.
• "Romance". News of the day. The Age. Melbourne: Fairfax. 22 February 1949. p. 2.
• Dowsett, W. J. P. (24 December 1946). "Town Talk". The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. p. 1.
• "Camberwell Girl's Grammar". The Argus. Melbourne. 14 December 1946. p. 24.
• "Ambition may be selfish". Speech Nights. The Age. Melbourne: Fairfax. 14 December 1946. p. 15.
• "MISS SYLVIA ASHBY". Weekly Times. Melbourne. 3 July 1946. p. 26. (image)
• "Market survey explained". The Argus. Melbourne. 3 July 1946. p. 10.
• "People and places". The Age. Melbourne: Fairfax. 2 July 1946. p. 7.
• "City personal". The Argus. Finance :: Commerce :: Industry. Melbourne. 1946. p. 14.
• "Work and politics". Letters. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. 27 July 1942. p. 4.
• "New order for women". Letters. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. 2 July 1942. p. 4.
• Ashby, Sylvia (24 July 1942). "Closer ties with America predicted". Public Opinion. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. p. 4.
• McGowan, Ida M. (18 August 1942). "Equal status". Letters. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. p. 4.
• Johnson, Phyllis (17 July 1942). "Women". Letters. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. p. 4.
• Ashby, Sylvia (14 July 1942). "Women shouldn't forget they possess a vote". Opinion. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. p. 4.
• Ashby, Sylvia (1 August 1941). "Wanted intelligent women". Australian Women's Weekly. p. 16.
• "Public Relations: Germany and Britain - scheme which fell through, Sydney business woman's part". The Daily Examiner. Grafton. 9 September 1939. p. 4.
• "Women will talk to women: How market research works, good shoppers wanted". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: Fairfax. 17 November 1938. p. 22.
• "A new job for women". The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. 23 February 1938. p. 9.
• Marsh, John (31 January 1938). "Business Jobs for Women — But not Married Ones". The Daily Telegraph Home Magazine. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. p. 3.
• Ashby, Sylvia (15 January 1938). "Secrets of An Ancient Indian Art". The Herald. Melbourne. p. 34.
• Ashby, Sylvia (13 July 1937). "Sydney Girls meets Mr. Baldwin". The Sunday Sun and Guardian. p. 6.
• "These women have unusual occupations: shipboard wireless and market research, inducing people to travel". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: Fairfax. 13 April 1937. p. 4.
• "Australians in London show driving force". The Sunday Sun and Guardian. 11 April 1937. p. 12.
• "A portrait of a Red Indian". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: Fairfax. 23 February 1937. p. 19.
• "Long athletic season ahead". Women In Sport. The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. 30 October 1934. p. 16.
• "Wentworth—Ashby". Family Notices. Table Talk. Melbourne. 14 March 1929. p. 64.
• "She has no duplicate". Daily Women's Section. The Argus. Melbourne. 22 December 1953. p. 9.
• "Her faith is in woman". Freda's Irving Runabout. The Argus. Melbourne. 2 December 1952. p. 4.
• "Worth Reporting". Australian Women's Weekly. 1 November 1961. p. 14.
• "Survey show's up men's dress habits". Canberra Times. ACT. 23 November 1960. p. 2.
• "Advertising history made". The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. 26 September 1954. p. 16.
• "Panel aids production". The Daily Telegraph. Sydney: Australian Consolidated Press. 5 March 1954. p. 10.
• "Gift Idea". News of the Day. The Age. Melbourne: Fairfax. 22 December 1953. p. 2.

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thanks for creating this article..

Abishe (talk) 16:05, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! - Chris.sherlock (talk) 09:31, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Children's names and infobox

The infobox wikilinks are not overlinked. They are quite reasonable to wikilink summarised info, and not have people have to hunt around the article. The children's names are also quite acceptable, in fact it even says so in Template:Infobox person. Given I have literally spent days and days on research for this article and am the sole author so far, I think I'm in a reasonable place to make a judgement call on this. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 09:21, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

The template documentation states: Birth place and death place should use format "city, administrative region, country" and should not link country names; Death cause should only be included when significant to subject's notability; Children, parents, and other relatives should be named only if they are independently notable or particularly relevant. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:26, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

As I have noted in the article, her children were absolutely relevant in her life. She featured them in publications such as the Women's Weekly. They are mentioned in the press a number of times and the ADB gives them a special mention.

You probably have a point about her sister, but her brother did play a big part in her life. I should probably note this. Her parents are relevant because of where they came from, and I note the ADB always includes them. It’s not a privacy issue, as they are widely known and are deceased anyway. The dictionary of Sydney also makes the point of naming her parents. It would not be a complete source of information if the parents weren’t named!

I have already de-linked the country, but in fact the nationality should indeed be linked. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 11:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

What do you believe about where the parents came from makes them significant? We base our inclusion on our own guidelines, not what ADB may or may not do. Nothing currently in the article supports the inclusion of any of the relatives in the template. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

do what you need to do then. I think I’ve contributed more than enough to this article. If you are trying to dishearten contributors, you’re doing a good job of it. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 11:51, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I won’t revert you, but I am seriously discouraged and considering that if this is the way I’m going to be treated I might take a break from writing articles about Australian women. Even a simple acknowledgement that I made my edits in good faith right now would be greatly encouraging. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 11:59, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is disputing that you are editing in good faith. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:04, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I think I’m a bit depressed and anxious at the moment. I try hard to combat it but I’m afraid tonight it may have affected me more than I realised. I apologise for any behaviour that may have been unacceptable. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Dates

Why are the date templates being removed? - Chris.sherlock (talk) 11:50, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, so in this one I’m mistaken. I entirely missed the bit that said it should be used in templates. That’s on me. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:49, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

“Under-utilised”

In Australia, we use the term “under-utilised” when we speak of someone not getting enough work. Under-used is not really used very much. I’ve been told that our language is considered ugly, but there you have it. It’s part of our dialect of English and I feel sad that we could be considered uncouth and our language dreadful. I personally love our language differences. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 12:02, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't know where you got that idea. Tony (talk) 12:19, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I may have taken it the wrong way, but you called the word ugly. I realise now it may be seen as such outside of the Australian context. I apologise for misunderstanding you. I’ll be honest, I think I’m a bit off at the moment. I probably need some sleep. Sorry. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:16, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Em-dash

Why are people reverting entity encoded en-dashes and en-dashes? The general principle is that the initial style used is the one kept. I checked MOS:DASH and it’s pretty clear that entity encoding is quite acceptable. I have now been threatened on my talk page for using these! And yet I literally write the whole article! - Chris.sherlock (talk) 12:06, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I take back the threat comment. Sorry. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikilink changed

I have now twice had the following wikilink changed: J. Walter Thompson Australia Pty Ltd when I feel it it should be J. Walter Thompson Australia Pty Ltd. There is no such company as the Australia Pry Ltd any more, so I feel this is a bit misleading to link to something that doesn’t exist any more! - Chris.sherlock (talk) 12:10, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, I am happy to be convinced about this point. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:19, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

New template removed

The {{nee}} template is being used, and I see no consensus that this template should not be used. It has now been removed twice. Why is this the case? If the template should not be used, then feel free to take it TFD, but until then please don’t remove it as it’s perfectly acceptable. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 12:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Citation templates parameters removed

Can some explain why the publisher and publication-place parameters are being removed from the article? Tony1 can you explain why you removed these? - Chris.sherlock (talk) 12:15, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I'll let User:Ohconfucius explain that – he's the expert. But I must say your writing is pretty good, and we need more articles on women. I've only read the first paragraph. This sentence is a problem: "During the Second World War her company experienced hardships due to a general public suspicious of inquisitive representatives polling public sentiment about the war and Prime Minister, along with a general reluctance amongst companies to spend money on market research which they found to be unnecessary in a time of rationing." Tony (talk) 12:21, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Tony. So I can improve this can you let me know more what the issue is? FWIW, I’ve referenced this in the article. She was literally reported to police, brought in for questioning and threatened with arrest. A number of her interviewers were also detained. The reference is in the article, should I add a footnote? - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:10, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

He hasn’t bothered showing up on talk. But the publisher is important for these articles, because they are no longer owned by ACP but were at the time. Fairfax doesn’t exist any more, but is Nine Entertainment Corporation. I’ve put them back. Note that it says “normally”, not “never”. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:11, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikilink removed

I was probably being way too stubborn and probably referring to practices long since discarded. I am a stubborn person by nature, but I am aware of this so after a few kind words I’ve reconsidered that I was being an ass and have removed the wikilink from Australia. Admittedly reluctantly but Wikipedia runs on consensus and I should have bowed to it more gracefully. I aplogise for being combative about this. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:22, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Tony1: FWIW, I do listen even when I’m being dickish. I’m afraid you may have caught the brunt of it. I’m sorry about that. It was actually your comments that made me change my mind. It happens sometimes :-) - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:24, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

""@Chris.sherlock: – no problem. I'll go through the article slowly. Please scrutinise and tell me if you have any problems with small changes I make. Tony (talk) 01:01, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Tony1:, I appreciate this. Thanks for helping me by collaborating on this article! - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:09, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Birth name

The birth name is different to her common name. Her common name on the info box is “Sylvia Ashby”. Her full birth name is “Sylvia Rose Ashby”! - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Query

"... she still found it a difficult start. She later recounted that "business executives ... appeared to know little and to care even less" about market research,[12] and this was further compounded by prevailing views of women at the time.[1] To counter this, Ashby became a tireless promoter of market research in a market that did not yet see the value of such research, let alone paying for it."

There are unclear meanings here.

• To start with "To counter this" – what does "this" refer back to?
• "prevailing views of women" is ambiguous: does it mean women's views, or societal views about women?
• Why is the bit about views of/on women scrambled into this part of the text? If it relates back to "found it a difficult start", that should be clarified.

Tony (talk) 01:08, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

I’ll get these fixed. - Chris.sherlock (talk) 19:15, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Tony1 is the rewrite any better? - Chris.sherlock (talk) 19:23, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

• Chris.sherlock, this sentence: "The war had shown Ashby that revenue could be affected by external events however, and so she decided to conduct ongoing research surveys alongside her commissioned research work." Does this mean that the "ongoing surveys" were pro bono, as opposed to the commissioned work, so she could ride out fluctuations in revenue? Tony (talk) 07:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Tony1 sorry for the delay, I got a bit busy at work. I've updated the sentence to clarify what she was doing. Thanks! - Chris.sherlock (talk) 13:38, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Saw the request for feedback here, not a formal review because I'm not up to date on the criteria but a few comments:

• I wonder if the "early life" and "early career" would be better merged, the former is very short and a standalone section for one's birth and schooling is a bit unorthdox unless there was something interesting about it.
  • That's a pretty normal section split. Plenty of articles seperate early career from early life. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• The last sentence of "early career" needs work; it suggests that she was involved in something tremendously controversial, but deals with it in one sentence and one reference that doesn't shed a lot of light. It needs more context either way, and more detail if her role in it was more than peripheral.
  • I'm not clear what is not clear... she initially took on something with the Third Reich, and then realised that it was a bad move as the public were quite against the Third Reich (even before the war), so she backed out of it. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Second-last paragraph of "World War II" - the negotiations with Packer and Murdoch need some dates, because otherwise the timeframe is quite unclear
  • The entirety of the information I can find is in "A matter of trust: The Ashby Research Service", on page 9, gives no dates. This is the material:
    • "The slowing of ARS business, however, did not necessarily reflect the level of trust enjoyed by ARS among key businessmen. Keith Murdoch, the managing director of the Herald & Weekly Times (HWT), who also briefly served as the Director-General of Information in 1940, was impressed by his wartime dealings with Ashby. As HWT moved to establish a public opinion polling subsidiary, Murdoch’s exposure to Ashby’s work saw him invite her to join his team. However, the HWT offer was countered by Frank Packer’s ACP. Ashby’s relationship with ACP preceded the war, when ARS surveyed readers of Australian Women’s Weekly (Ashby, 1979a, p. 11). For Ashby, the ACP offer ultimately proved ‘the more attractive’ (Ashby, 1979b, p. 27), and ARS would remain a subsidiary of ACP up until 1974, when Packer sold it back to Ashby for the same price that he bought it (Goot, 1993). While the ACP takeover had disrupted ARS’s vaunted status as an independent market researcher, Ashby reasoned that the firm’s connection with ACP would offset any loses and provide access to new accounts"
• Second-last paragraph of "World War II" - is "Australian Gallop Poll" a typo?
  • No, that is the name of the poll. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
    • No, sorry, you are quite correct! It is Gallup, not Gallop. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 05:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Last paragraph of "World War II" - there are no sources for no details of it causing a "stir". It's an interesting position which I'd include anyway but if there was any reaction that needs to be sourced.
  • There was a stir, from the reader reactions, but I will just go down the easier path and reword this. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 05:15, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Second sentence of "Post-war" - I feel like this could be better worded.
  • lol - not sure if I want to walk into this one! I didn't write it, it was done by Tony1, who is apparently a professional copyrighter. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 06:07, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• There is an unexplained large gap between 1968 and 1978 - we're told the business recorded a loss in 1968, then nada until the sale back to her in 1974, then her final sale of the business is undated and then there's just her death.
  • There are no sources for this time period. She ran the business, and then it was sold back to her. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Hope this is useful. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

It was, I appreciate you taking the time to review the article. I'm genuinely not dismissing your feedback (I realise that it may look that way), but I just can't find the sources to clarify or fill in the gaps on this one. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 06:08, 27 July 2021 (UTC)