Talk:Symphony station (Sound Transit)

Page moves

Sign w/ updated station name

I see there's a red link in the article history template above, and don't forget to rename the category at Wikimedia Commons! Thanks ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 31 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The spirit of WP:USSTATION would point to this being non-capitalized. Indeed, the station does not even use "station" it its signage, which would indicate it is just a regular station, as opposed to "named transit center" to quote the guideline. Further, the article as currently named maintains consistency with the current capitalization of the majority of US stations, and OP claims to not want to shift the guideline for the entire US. Arguments that Seattle stations are somehow different do not seem to hold water, as similar arguments could be made for many other cites. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

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Symphony station (Sound Transit) → Symphony Station (Sound Transit) – "Symphony Station" is the common and official of the station.

Capital-S "Station" as a proper noun is the WP:COMMONNAME used by reliable sources:

• Seattle Times 1, 2, 3

• "University Street Station" in 1990

• Everett Herald
• KING 5
• KIRO 7
• Fox 13

It's also the WP:OFFICIALNAME used by Sound Transit:

• https://www.soundtransit.org/st_sharepoint/download/sites/PRDA/ActiveDocuments/Motion%20M2021-61.pdf

It is hereby moved by the Board of the Central Puget Sound Regional Transit Authority that University Street Station is renamed Symphony Station in coordination with the East Link Extension opening.

• https://www.soundtransit.org/ride-with-us/service-alerts/university-street-station-now-symphony-station
• https://www.soundtransit.org/get-to-know-us/news-events/news-releases/new-name-coming-one-downtown-seattles-light-rail-stations
• https://www.soundtransit.org/blog/platform/what-to-expect-when-youre-expecting-lynnwood-link

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (US stations) says that "station articles should be titled by their WP:COMMONNAME, followed by 'station' if not already part of the name. In cases where the word 'Station' is part of the proper name, it should be capitalized." PK-WIKI (talk) 06:51, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment – The proposed change would also need to apply to all other Link and Sounder station articles to maintain consistency. SounderBruce 23:21, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support – Yes, this should be done (for all Sound Transit station articles). Agree with everything above. –Fpmfpm (talk) 16:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – This is hardly a unique case. Plenty of local transit and news agencies broadly across North America as a whole commonly refer to station names with uppercase "Station" as part of the "official name" at the end of their names. However, virtually every North American transit station article outside of cases like "Union Station" or "Penn Station" have their article titles as lowercase "station", in spite of the arguments made here. If we do agree to make this change, then the scope should really be extended to North America as a whole, not just Sound Transit, and should be discussed with the community as a whole. Changing all of the names will be nothing short of a colossal undertaking and I would imagine in cases create some discrepancies between certain networks and metro areas based on how they "officially" refer to their station names as. Having station articles outside of "Union Station", "Penn Station", and other cases having their titles with lowercase "station" is in place because of the consistency between article titles afforded from such. OrdinaryScarlett (talk) 23:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Expanding the scope of this discussion to the entire country is an unnecessary escalation and does not result in productive reasoning here. SounderBruce 04:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Why are you drawing a distinction between Union Station, Penn Station, and Symphony Station? All are written with a capitalized "Station" in the majority of reliable sources. I don't see a difference. Agree with SounderBruce that this move request can apply only to Sound Transit and that expansion to the entire country is unnecessary. PK-WIKI (talk) 06:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  One major thing to consider is the significance of the station. While Symphony is located in downtown Seattle and has plenty of bus connections, it doesn't exist on the same scale as say King Street Station, a major inter-city, commuter rail, and bus hub. Naming the article with a capital "Station" would imply it to be on the same level of significance as the latter. Precedence is that more "minor" stations (relative to major intercity hubs like King Street), especially with light rail and rapid transit systems typically use the lowercase "station".

  I was not arguing in favor of expanding the scope to North America in this particular discussion, but to consider the ramifications of such a move on a more broader context. That could be considered separately afterwards depending on the outcome of this discussion, but I am simply pointing out that there are many such cases of this particular situation, such as with the Vancouver SkyTrain (stations are both commonly and officially referred to with "Station" as part of the name, even station signage, yet the article names still use lowercase "station"). Consistency is key across Wikipedia, and having all Sound Transit station articles use "Station" regardless of significance would be inconsistent with other North American transit agencies and networks. OrdinaryScarlett (talk) 08:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedians considering the significance of the stations and grouping them into two tiers, "Station" and "station", based on arbitrary criteria such as number of commuter rail connections or significance of the station's architecture is complete WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Instead we should stick to the article title WP:CRITERIA and the WP:COMMONNAME in use by reliable third-party sources, which in this case is overwhelmingly "Symphony Station".

  If the Vancouver SkyTrain station articles are not titled with their common names, and are out of line with the guidline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (US stations), I would suggest they should be moved to maintain consistency with the rest of the encyclopedia. PK-WIKI (talk) 07:02, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose this has been discussed at length on other transit articles and the consensus is that station is lowercase. News articles commonly capitalize place names even where Wikipedia doesn't. EoRdE6^(Talk) 03:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Which consensus are you referring to? The guideline document at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (US stations) says that "Station" should be uppercase when "Station" is part of the station's proper name. It goes on to state In cases where "station" is not part of the proper name, or is not usually capitalized in sources, it should be in written in lower case, but in the case of Symphony Station the word "Station" IS part of the proper name and IS usually capitalized in sources. PK-WIKI (talk) 06:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Station is not part of the proper name for this station. See the station signs which only state Symphony. Station is part of the proper name in cases where excluding it would be abnormal, see South Station or Union Station (Los Angeles). Symphony can be a standalone name, see Symphony station (MBTA). As for consensus, see Category:CTA Blue Line stations, Category:Orange Line (MBTA) stations or literally any other article from Category:Rapid transit stations in the United States by operator and you'll see lowercase "s" is standard. EoRdE6^(Talk) 01:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  The official name of the facility is verifiably "Symphony Station" per the motion approved by the Sound Transit Board that actually named the station: "...University Street Station is renamed Symphony Station..."

  The place is not just "Symphony" or "Symphony station". It's officially "Symphony Station". The full proper noun "Symphony Station" is also the WP:COMMONNAME used by the vast majority of reliable third-party sources such as the Seattle Times.

  Sound Transit does abreviate the name to just "Symphony" on signs or maps. This matches the advice in Sound Transit's Editorial Style Guide (page 45)] which states "Avoid using "station" as a suffix for a station name when possible, including online maps, variable messaging systems, onboard audio, platform signs and ticket machines. In narrative contexts, on corporate materials, or to explicitly describe a facility rather than a destination, freely use the word station. Capitalize Station when used directly following the station's name, but in all other uses lowercase station.

  As that applies to our article title:

  1. It's not possible to avoid using "S/station", as that word is needed for disambiguation from the Symphony article.

  2. This article is a narrative context and is explicitly describing a facility rather than a destination, so the word "S/station" should be used freely.

  3. The word "S/station" is directly following the rest of the station's name, so should be capitalized.

  PK-WIKI (talk) 06:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  You totally misunderstood my point and I suspect intentionally so. Notice how University Street station also had a lowercase s despite what you just quoted from ST. All the rest of your points can be applied to any station in the US. If you wish to change the consensus on American station naming, you need a bigger venue than this. Wikipedia article titles do not need to follow private organizations style guides. They do need to follow Wikipedia guidelines and consensus. Current consensus on American transit stations is lowercase "s". EoRdE6^(Talk) 03:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  Definitely am not seeking to change the consensus on American station naming as a whole.

  The Seattle station article titles are currently out of line with the Wikipedia-wide consensus to use commonly recognizable names in use by reliable third-party sources. Also out of line with the specific guideline for this situation at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (US stations), which states first that U.S. station articles should be titled by their common name and that in cases where the word "Station" is part of the proper name, it should be capitalized. The WP:COMMONNAMES in use by reliable third-party sources capitalize "Station" for all Seattle stations.

  Seattle station common names appear to potentially be different from places like Chicago, which use "station". In both cases, the WP:COMMONNAME should be used. PK-WIKI (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  My point is that media in Boston also use capital "Station", as does LA media, as does Charlotte media, I could find examples for pretty much any US transit system. On the flip side, I can also find examples of Seattle using lowercase "s". The English language is full of ambiguities like this, both "Symphony Station" and "Symphony station" are equally correct ways to refer to it, my point is that we maintain consistency with every other rapid transit article on Wikipedia. Or have the bigger conversation about moving them all to "Station" which I'm open to, but you need a better venue for that. Having one operator be different doesn't make any sense, its the same English language in Seattle as in Boston. EoRdE6^(Talk) 01:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.