Talk:Taiwan

Is the country, instead of the area or the island etc, the primary topic of the word "Taiwan"?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Moxy🍁 00:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

See also: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC

Not to be confused with WP:COMMONNAME.

Not to be confused. This suggestion is not (i) moving Taiwan to Taiwan(country) and making Taiwan a disambiguation page, (ii) defining Taiwan offically ROC a country, a state or sth, in other word Taiwan is a country will be remained.

I tried searching for it and it seems there is no consensus about it. Donttellu8 (talk) 10:59, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Then wread the top of this page. Slatersteven (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I did a survey on the usage of the word "Taiwan".

Operation steps: Use a proxy to make Google detect the location as Taiwan, search Google for "What is Taiwan", and count each result one by one in order.

Note: To prevent original research, only the direct use of the word "island" and "country" is counted; the use of "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is not counted; similar expressions such as "Taiwan: Country Profile" are regarded as "Country"; "Taiwan has all the infrastructure of an independent country" or similar expressions is not counted as "country"; Using the flag does not represent a "country".

Island(8): Britannica, BBC, Council on Foreign Relations, Life of Taiwan, Hong Kong Free Press, GlobalEDGE, RGS.org, Collins Dictionary (also "territory"),

Both island and country(3): BBC, ThoughtCo, WorldAtlas

Country(5): Nations Online Project (says "yes and no"), CIA, Cambridge Dictionary, Freedom House, Country Reports,

It seems like the island is more common than the country.

It may better to move Taiwan (island) -> Taiwan , Taiwan -> Taiwan (Country). Donttellu8 (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

This has been extensively discussed, and the sources you bring do not argue against the existing consensus established (see top of page). Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Since there is too much relevant information, please give some counsensuses directly instead of "see the top of the page" to avoid omissions, thank you. Donttellu8 (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Not a useful distinction, the topics overlap in the same way they do for Cuba, Madagascar, or Sri Lanka. CMD (talk) 15:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

A side note on the first 3 links in this survey, the Britannica entry is part of its "Countries of the World" series, the BBC article is clearly not talking about a simple geographical island ("They called this the Republic of China, a name Taiwan has retained"), and the same goes for CFR, which opens with "Taiwan, officially known as the Republic of China". CMD (talk) 15:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

in order to prevent original research, these links says Taiwan is an island rather than a country in the text directly, so I put them into "island". Donttellu8 (talk) 16:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have worked yourself into a great confusion... Perhaps you are working backwords from a conclusion? Not sure this makes sense otherwise Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Also (to illustrate the problem [[1]] "Taiwan country profile", The BBC, so yes this looks like cherry picking. Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

So I put it into "Both island and country". Isn't it correct? Donttellu8 (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

THis all reads like OR, a user deciding what an RS means (read wp:v). If they call it a country, it is a country, whatever the rest of the text may say. Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, "they call it a country" is not an OR while "the rest of the text indicates it is a country" may be an OR. Donttellu8 (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

They explicitly call it a country, if they do not use country every time they say Tawain, or also describe the island in the same article, does not mean they are not calling it a country they are still calling it a country, not an island. That is where the OR lies, it is reading into the text a statement that is not explicitly made. Slatersteven (talk) 17:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

This exercise is pretty close to OR, since you are outlining the methodology of your research and drawing conclusion from that. If the objective here is to make Geography of Taiwan the primary topic, I think there is little evidence to support that.

From a cursory view of recent news articles that reference Taiwan, the word is almost always used to refer to the country vs. the island, involving the polity in most of those cases (e.g., president, government policy, military). This broadly reflects how readers would understand the word. Butterdiplomat (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Well I found similar survey in 2020 RfC. (here) That survey was accpected and I don't think this survey's method has any difference from that one. ?8 (talk) 05:39, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

And involving the polity in most of those cases (e.g., president, government policy, military) indicates they use word Taiwan as a country? Is it an OR? ?8 (talk) 05:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The 2020 RfC was an attempt to determine which terminology to use to refer to the polity. Butterdiplomat (talk) 12:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way we Taiwan (island) already. Slatersteven (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Brand new user and a snowball close topic. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Can we have an RM is that is what we are discussing? Slatersteven (talk) 13:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

this isnt hard i dont think, a history book should clear things up. the United Nations expelled Taiwan in 1971 and instead recognized the CCP/PRC as the official government of China as the communist CCP government ruling mainland China established a convincing claim that it, not the nationlist government in exile in Taiwan, was in fact the legitimate government of China. The CCP's strongest evidence was the fact that more than 98% of Chinese citizens lived on the mainland—roughly 540 million in 1950, compared to only 8 million in Taiwan.

only 12 countries officially recognize Taiwan/RoC as an independent nation. Calling Taiwan a country is like calling the island of Cook, Key West or Hawaii a country: its nonsensical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.200.184.250 (talk) 00:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change Pinyin in the info box

There is a slight error in the Pinyin transcription in the info box under Flag anthem. It should be Zhōnghuá Mínguó Guóqígē, with the accent over the o in guó. Naqba īmuru (talk) 15:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Phlar (talk) 02:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan

According to Wikipedia, Taiwan is a Chinese island. I wonder how much the Chinese government paid Wikipedia to put THAT lie up and then lock the editing tool. 2603:8080:D9F0:7610:2872:D4AF:AFFE:85AE (talk) 03:31, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence says it's a country. If you wish to make changes to the article, request them here instead of directly editing the article. win8x (talking | spying) 03:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The only mention of China in the first sentence is in the phrase "Republic of China". Which is the formal name of the country as defined by its own government. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think he might be referring to the article on zhwiki. 2601:647:4401:9EB0:F4C4:AFDD:306A:85C9 (talk) 01:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

(zh:台湾) 2601:647:4401:9EB0:F4C4:AFDD:306A:85C9 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

why not add "de facto"?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This RfC is malformed per WP:RFCNEUTRAL, tendentious, and clearly contradictory to strong existing consensus (cf. the actual argumentation underlying WP:TWRFC). It's clearly either negligent or trolling, and there's no procedural necessity in further entertaining either tendency. Remsense ‥ 论 14:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

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New to Wikipedia, and why not describe taiwan as de facto country? i searched the archives of this page and its seems theres nobody disagree the facto statement of taiwan. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 11:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Why? Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan has all the infrastructure of an independent country but only a dozen nations recognise it as such 103.190.179.16 (talk) 11:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

So, in law it says it is, so does that mean De Jure? This is the problem, it is not like Sealand, it was an independent nation (and member of the UN), it is not in fact a self-declared entity, but a remnant. Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

So, u mean.. Taiwan is a rump state? 103.190.179.16 (talk) 11:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Its rather more complex than that, in fact it is very complex, but yes it is (almost, but not quite) a rump state. Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

It is very complex as you said, but why can Wikipedia simply describe Taiwan as a country? The consensus formation process above looks like the result of polling and I found an article named Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion while exploring somewhere. is it appropriate 103.190.179.16 (talk) 12:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

You can (and are) discussing it but wp:consensus is also in play, If no one agrees with you you can't just refuse to accept it and continue to argue your case (see also wp:bludgeon). Slatersteven (talk) 12:11, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Because there's no reason to do that. Remsense ‥ 论 14:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

And with that I have had my say, time for others to have theirs. Slatersteven (talk) 12:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Most countries are de facto countries, but that term is usually used for breakaway states that never achieved recognition. That is not the situation for Taiwan, so rather than try to summarise the situation in two words, almost 200 words forming the longest paragraph of the lead are devoted to the topic. CMD (talk) 13:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

That term is usually used for breakaway states that never achieved recognition. How did you get that? 103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

A lot of reading into the topic at various points. CMD (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

And you know, Taiwan, is commonly referred to Republic of China after retreat. in this way Taiwan seemly has never achieved recognition and more like a breakaway state from historical RoC 103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

and it doesn't say that summarising the situation in two words and 200 words forming the longest paragraph of the lead are devoted to the topic can't coexist 103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Well i see that ones who replied here are ones always taking part in editing this article. this may lead to maintaining the status quo. what about inviting more editors of other topics to see more opinions?103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem would be wp:canvassing, now you could start an RFC. Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

START, not turn this into one. Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Footnote: sometimes country, sometimes state?

Not all sources listed here call it a country. (eg 2nd and 4th) 103.190.179.16 (talk) 17:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

In casual English most people will not distinguish between the two terms. 01:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC) CMD (talk) 01:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

i think it may be better to delete some of the sources that don;t call it a country. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 13:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

About RoC after retreat?

Why not explain it like this?

This article is about the Republic of China after retreat. For the mainland era, see Republic of China (1912-1949).

Taiwan only refers to RoC after retreat. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no reason to, and it is wrong. It is about both the present country of Taiwan, and the contiguous ROC. Republic of China (1912–1949) is a subarticle detailing the mainland period. Remsense ‥ 论 02:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Why wrong? Before the retreat no one treated Taiwan as a country. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 14:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

No they treated the ROC as a country, that country still exists, as it is the official name of the country often called Taiwan. Slatersteven (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Taiwan is not simply the common name. If that is the case, we wouldn't create a page called Roc 1912-1949. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Why not? The period in which the ROC was much larger than Taiwan would not be sensibly covered in an article on Taiwan. The ROC is the same state/government, but it has represented two different countries over its history. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

No, this article is about Taiwan. Post 1949, the history of Taiwan is that of the ROC. Prior to 1949, we cover the ROC (and China in general) only to the extent that it pertains to Taiwan. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we should make this articulation much more clear, perhaps put it in an FAQ at the top of the page. Remsense ‥ 论 19:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. That's the point. But i don't see a statement like this in the article. The article only says Taiwan officially Roc. 103.190.179.16 (talk) 12:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Because Taiwan IS the ROC. Currently. Every country article covers the history of the area before the actual country government existed, just like this one does. What problem are you trying to address? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The logic I believe is the ROC has continued to exist. There are not two different countries before and after 1949. This topic is still the ROC. Its title was moved to Taiwan to reflect modern usage, and pre-1949 content was split but still summarized here. Vacosea (talk) 20:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

"There are not two different countries before and after 1949." There most obviously are. A huge country spanning much of a continent and a tiny island country cannot seriously be considered the same country. Same state, yes. Same country, don't make me laugh. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 October 2024

"ROC" redirects here. For other uses, see ROC (disambiguation).

Thatdordrechtguy (talk) 11:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: per the last RfD on Talk:ROC. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 12:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)