Talk:Taiwanese Mandarin

Move?

I think this should be moved to Taiwanese Mandarin--Confuzion 08:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

台灣國語 (Táiwān Guóyŭ) ?

Does the term "台灣國語" (Táiwān Guóyŭ, appears in the first paragraph of the article) really exist? It seems that the Republic of China referred to Standard Mandarin as "國語" (Guóyŭ) (See National language), but not "台灣國語" (Táiwān Guóyŭ). The latter term is often interpreted as "台灣國　語" (State of Taiwan, language) or "台灣　國語" (Taiwan, national language), which are biases towards the supporters of Taiwan independence. Apart from that, is "Mandarin on Taiwan" a better title that "Taiwanese Mandarin"? Because "Taiwanese" is another dialect in the Chinese language. - 169.231.1.116 20:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Please don't read "guoyu" literally. People don't. "Guoyu" in this context is simply meant to be a name for "Mandarin". The literal meaning is not relevant. I don't see a "bias towards the supporters of Taiwan independence" because Taiwan independence proponents want Taiwanese, not Mandarin, to be the national language. And "Taiwanese" here is used as an adjective so it cannot refer to the dialect of Min Nan, but rather the geographical place name (of Taiwan). --Jiang 02:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jiang. The term "Taiwan Madarin" was firstly used for academic research, and it refers to the language spoken in Taiwan. Just like we say "American English（美式英語）" or "Singapore Chinese（新加坡華語）", we often use the name of location to stand for it.

Do 臺式國語 and 臺腔國語 exist? Would they be more logical and neutral? — Instantnood 21:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Jiang is right - this is not a NPOV issue. The term is recognised in Taiwan by blues and greens alike. Everyone on the island calls it 台灣國語, everyone knows what is meant by the term, so what's the problem? The national language of the Republic of China is 國語, the language as it is spoken by many on the streets is 台灣國語. Of course, how you then use the term can be political, as a pan-blue supporter might mock Chen Shui-Bian for his 台灣國語 (feeling it to be country-bumpkinish) or a pan-green might lambast James Soong for not using 台灣國語 (feeling that the absence of 台灣國語 renders him aloof and removed from the 'man on the street').

By the way, I did a quick straw poll (alright, it was only four people) and no-one had heard the term 臺式國語 or 臺腔國語. Not conclusive I admit, but they were surprised that anyone would want to find another name for 台灣國語. In fact, when I asked one friend he thought I'd got the Mandarin wrong and said 'oh no, you mean 台灣國語'... :)

The Chinese term is clear, widely known and it should not be changed. The English terms 'Taiwan Mandarin' or 'Taiwanese Mandarin' seem the best and clearest translation. I have seen 'Taiwan Mandarin' used in the English literature to refer to 台灣國語 but I think 'Taiwanese Mandarin' is just as accurate. I will attempt to track down some references in the near future to back this up. Taiwantaffy 15:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much Taiwantaffy. Nevertheless, if we were to be speculative, it's not really that surprising for pro-independence people to start saying 台灣國語 meaning the Min Nan language, or specifically the Taiwanese dialect. :-) — Instantnood 16:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've found some (scholarly) references to back up my point above; 1, 2, 3, 4. They all refer to the phenomenon as Taiwan Mandarin. I'll be reading these in depth over the coming days and adding more points and references to the article. Also, the Chinese-language Wikipedia article entitled 臺灣國語 is quite clear that the term does not refer to any putative 'Republic of Taiwan' national language, plus it provides plenty of references for the term 台灣國語 being used in Chinese language literature. So I really feel there is no need to change the Chinese term used in the article.

Furthermore, I think there is a case for renaming the article Taiwan Mandarin as this is the term used in the literature. We could add a redirect from Taiwanese Mandarin to Taiwan Mandarin. This is in accordance with Wikipedia policy to use the most common or well-known name for any given phenomenon. What does everyone feel about this? Taiwantaffy 02:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

"Taiwanese Mandarin" is more grammatical. On google, it is 865 vs. 958. It is used here: [1] [2]--Jiang 08:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the vocabulary section is not very accurate. Lots of people of Taiwan refer bikes as zixinche or dangche. You can't tell if somebody is from China or from Taiwan just by the way they refer bikes. I think a better example would be the way harddrive is referred, since in Taiwan it is called a yingdie and in china it's called yingpang. BlueShirts 18:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

does anyone know when mandarin became the official language of the media? I remember there were a lot of movies and television dramas from the 60s or 70s that were in Taiwanese entirely. Was there a policy change in the late 70s BlueShirts 22:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Good question, I'll see what info I can dig up. • U|T|E 01:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've had a quick look online and the only reference I can see towards a changing of attitudes in that period is the Presbyterian Church's assertion of the banning of romanized literature in 1975. This could have coincided with a more general restriction on Taiwanese being broadcast, but that is not clear. Plenty of other sites have vague statements like 'during KMT rule Taiwanese was suppressed', but there is not much about specific language policy during the KMT era. If I come across any other info I'll post it here. • U|T|E 02:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah this is really weird. Some of the best early movies (60s) were in Taiwanese, with traditional Chinese subtitles of course. I think all too often we just hear blanket statements like the KMT banned the use of Taiwanese. I know it's banned in schools (along with all other dialects), but I'm not sure when the media ban started. BlueShirts 22:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

This article on Taiwanese movies is of interest. [3]BlueShirts 03:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Google hits

Defining language usage preferences between the PRC and Taiwan can be a messy art form. The Google hits are meant to help answer the question: "How common is the term __ in the PRC vs. Taiwan?" It is not a particularly sophisticated form of statistical analysis. However, it is quick and easy, and it gets across the general idea. I decided to put in the statistics because of an earlier dispute about the word for bicycle (腳踏車 jiǎotàchē vs. 自行車 zìxíngchē). While zìxíngchē is used in both the PRC and Taiwan, jiǎotàchē is used less outside of Taiwan. This is because jiǎotàchē originated from the Taiwanese word: kha-ta̍h-chhia. A-cai 08:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

-No, it originated from Wu dialect speech cih dah tshu 腳踏車. 腳踏車 is still used in Shanghainese to mean 'bicycle'. Much of Modern Taiwanese Standard Mandarin comes from Shanghai/Jiangnan accent, not Min Nan accent. Bloodmerchant (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

POJ

I decided to use POJ for all Taiwanese terms on the Taiwanese Mandarin page. POJ seems to be the most popular way to represent Taiwanese (Min Nan) on the internet. There is even a Taiwanese version of Wikipedia that is written in POJ. Here is a conversion chart for those out there who may have learned another system.

Vowels

IPA

a

ap

at

ak

aʔ

ã

ɔ

ɔk

ɔ̃

ə

o

e

ẽ

i

iɛn

iəŋ

Pe̍h-ōe-jī

a

ap

at

ak

ah

aⁿ

o͘

ok

oⁿ

o

o

e

eⁿ

i

ian

eng

Revised TLPA

a

ap

at

ak

ah

aN

oo

ok

ooN

o

o

e

eN

i

ian

ing

TLPA

a

ap

at

ak

ah

ann

oo

ok

oonn

o

o

e

enn

i

ian

ing

BP

a

ap

at

ak

ah

na

oo

ok

noo

o

o

e

ne

i

ian

ing

MLT

a

ab/ap

ad/at

ag/ak

aq/ah

va

o

og/ok

vo

ø

ø

e

ve

i

ien

eng

DT

a

āp/ap

āt/at

āk/ak

āh/ah

ann/aⁿ

o

ok

onn/oⁿ

or

or

e

enn/eⁿ

i

ian/en

ing

Taiwanese kana

アア

アㇷ゚

アッ

アㇰ

アァ

アア

オオ

オㇰ

オオ

オオ

ヲヲ

エエ

エエ

イイ

イェヌ

イェン

Extended bopomofo

ㄚ

ㄚㆴ

ㄚㆵ

ㄚㆻ

ㄚㆷ

ㆩ

ㆦ

ㆦㆻ

ㆧ

ㄜ

ㄛ

ㆤ

ㆥ

ㄧ

ㄧㄢ

ㄧㄥ

Tâi-lô

a

ap

at

ak

ah

ann

oo

ok

onn

o

o

e

enn

i

ian

ing

Example (traditional Chinese)

亞 洲

壓 力

警 察

沃 水

牛 肉

三 十

烏 色

中 國

澳 洲

澳 洲

下 晡

醫 學

鉛 筆

英 國

Example (simplified Chinese)

亚 洲

压 力

警 察

沃 水

牛 肉

三 十

乌 色

中 国

澳 洲

澳 洲

下 晡

医 学

铅 笔

英 国

Vowels

IPA

iək

ĩ

ai

aĩ

au

am

ɔm

m̩

ɔŋ

ŋ̍

u

ua

ue

uai

uan

ɨ

(i)ũ

Pe̍h-ōe-jī

ek

iⁿ

ai

aiⁿ

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

oa

oe

oai

oan

i

(i)uⁿ

Revised TLPA

ik

iN

ai

aiN

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

ua

ue

uai

uan

ir

(i)uN

TLPA

ik

inn

ai

ainn

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

ua

ue

uai

uan

ir

(i)unn

BP

ik

ni

ai

nai

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

ua

ue

uai

uan

i

n(i)u

MLT

eg/ek

vi

ai

vai

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

oa

oe

oai

oan

i

v(i)u

DT

ik

inn/iⁿ

ai

ainn/aiⁿ

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

ua

ue

uai

uan

i

(i)unn/uⁿ

Taiwanese kana

イェㇰ

イイ

アイ

アイ

アウ

アム

オム

ム

オン

ン

ウウ

ヲア

ヲエ

ヲァイ

ヲァヌ

ウウ

ウウ

Extended bopomofo

ㄧㆻ

ㆪ

ㄞ

ㆮ

ㆯ

ㆰ

ㆱ

ㆬ

ㆲ

ㆭ

ㄨ

ㄨㄚ

ㄨㆤ

ㄨㄞ

ㄨㄢ

ㆨ

ㆫ

Tâi-lô

ik

inn

ai

ainn

au

am

om

m

ong

ng

u

ua

ue

uai

uan

ir

(i)unn

Example (traditional Chinese)

翻 譯

病 院

愛 情

歐 洲

暗 時

阿 姆

王 梨

黃 色

有 無

歌 曲

講 話

奇 怪

人 員

豬 肉

舀 水

Example (simplified Chinese)

翻 译

病 院

爱 情

欧 洲

暗 时

阿 姆

王 梨

黄 色

有 无

歌 曲

讲 话

奇 怪

人 员

猪 肉

舀 水

Consonants

IPA

p

b

pʰ

m

t

tʰ

n

nŋ

l

k

ɡ

kʰ

h

tɕi

ʑi

tɕʰi

ɕi

ts

dz

tsʰ

s

Pe̍h-ōe-jī

p

b

ph

m

t

th

n

nng

l

k

g

kh

h

chi

ji

chhi

si

ch

j

chh

s

Revised TLPA

p

b

ph

m

t

th

n

nng

l

k

g

kh

h

zi

ji

ci

si

z

j

c

s

TLPA

p

b

ph

m

t

th

n

nng

l

k

g

kh

h

zi

ji

ci

si

z

j

c

s

BP

b

bb

p

bb

d

t

n

lng

l

g

gg

k

h

zi

li

ci

si

z

l

c

s

MLT

p

b

ph

m

t

th

n

nng

l

k

g

kh

h

ci

ji

chi

si

z

j

zh

s

DT

b

bh

p

m

d

t

n

nng

l

g

gh

k

h

zi

r

ci

si

z

r

c

s

Taiwanese kana

パア

バア

パ̣ア

マア

タア

タ̣ア

ナア

ヌン

ラア

カア

ガア

カ̣ア

ハア

チイ

ジイ

チ̣イ

シイ

サア

ザア

サ̣ア

サア

Extended bopomofo

ㄅ

ㆠ

ㄆ

ㄇ

ㄉ

ㄊ

ㄋ

ㄋㆭ

ㄌ

ㄍ

ㆣ

ㄎ

ㄏ

ㄐ

ㆢ

ㄑ

ㄒ

ㄗ

ㆡ

ㄘ

ㄙ

Tâi-lô

p

b

ph

m

t

th

n

nng

l

k

g

kh

h

tsi

ji

tshi

si

ts

j

tsh

s

Example (traditional Chinese)

報 紙

閩 南

普 通

請 問

豬 肉

普 通

過 年

雞 卵

樂 觀

價 值

牛 奶

客 廳

煩 惱

支 持

漢 字

支 持

是 否

報 紙

熱 天

參 加

司 法

Example (simplified Chinese)

报 纸

闽 南

普 通

请 问

猪 肉

普 通

过 年

鸡 卵

乐 观

价 值

牛 奶

客 厅

烦 恼

支 持

汉 字

支 持

是 否

报 纸

热 天

参 加

司 法

Tones

Tone name	Yin level 陰平(1)	Yin rising 陰上(2)	Yin departing 陰去(3)	Yin entering 陰入(4)	Yang level 陽平(5)	Yang rising 陽上(6)	Yang departing 陽去(7)	Yang entering 陽入(8)	High rising (9)	Neutral tone (0)
IPA	a˥	a˥˧	a˨˩	ap˩ at˩ ak˩ aʔ˩	a˧˥		a˧	ap˥ at˥ ak˥ aʔ˥	a˥˥	a˨
Pe̍h-ōe-jī	a	á	à	ap at ak ah	â	ǎ	ā	a̍p a̍t a̍k a̍h	ă	--a
TLPA (and Revised TLPA)	a1	a2	a3	ap4 at4 ak4 ah4	a5	a6	a7	ap8 at8 ak8 ah8	a9	a0
BP	ā	ǎ	à	āp āt āk āh	á		â	áp át ák áh
MLT	af	ar	ax	ab ad ag aq	aa	aar	a	ap at ak ah		~a
DT	a	à	â	āp āt āk āh	ǎ		ā	ap at ak ah	á	å
Taiwanese kana (normal vowels)	アア	アア	アア	アㇷ゚ アッ アㇰ アァ	アア		アア	アㇷ゚ アッ アㇰ アァ
Taiwanese kana (nasal vowels)	アア	アア	アア	アㇷ゚ アッ アㇰ アァ	アア		アア	アㇷ゚ アッ アㇰ アァ
Extended bopomofo	ㄚ	ㄚˋ	ㄚ˪	ㄚㆴ ㄚㆵ ㄚㆻ ㄚㆷ	ㄚˊ		ㄚ˫	ㄚㆴ˙ ㄚㆵ˙ ㄚㆻ˙ ㄚㆷ˙
Tâi-lô	a	á	à	ah	â	ǎ	ā	a̍h	a̋	--ah
Example (traditional Chinese)	公司	報紙	興趣	血壓 警察 中國 牛肉	人員	老爸	草地	配合 法律 文學 歇熱	昨昏	入去
Example (simplified Chinese)	公司	报纸	兴趣	血压 警察 中国 牛肉	人员	老爸	草地	配合 法律 文学 歇热	昨昏	入去

• Note: The bopomofo extended characters in the zhuyin row require a UTF-8 font capable of displaying Unicode values 31A0–31B7 (ex. Code2000 true type font).

A-cai 13:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Explanation for the removal of the reference to the term bacon

If nobody objects, I have taken out the reference to "培根" (péigēn) vs. "煙肉" (yānròu). A quick search on Google reveals that "培根" (péigēn) is actually used far more in the PRC than the term "煙肉" (yānròu). Here are the results:

• • 培根 Google hits: .cn
  • 煙肉 Google hits: .cn

A-cai 03:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Reason why "in print" (1st column) characters are different from Taiwanese Han (2nd column)

In the chart of loan words from Taiwanese, why are characters "As seen in print" are different from corresponding "Taiwanese Han" (column 2)? Also, it may be appropriate to add a note that in some cases the Taiwanese Han characters are not standardized. Oniows 14:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Very good questions.

1. Maybe "as seen in print" is confusing. I will try to explain in greater detail here, and then we can decide how to word-smith the article. If you were to read Chinese language newspapers and periodicals (as well as the Chinese subtitles to English language movies) in Taiwan on a regular basis (For example: The China Times or The Liberty Times), you are likely to notice the occasional use of a Taiwanese word. It is estimated that less than 70% of the people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese. Also, many Taiwanese speakers are not educated in Taiwanese as written with Chinese characters (台文, POJ: Tâi-bûn). Therefore, many publications elect to choose Chinese characters whose Mandarin pronunciation approximates the sound of the Taiwanese word. For example, the Chinese characters for the Taiwanese word tòng-bē-tiâu (can not bear something; compelled to do something) are 擋未住. However, if you were to pronounce the characters in Mandarin, it would be dǎng wèi zhù (which is an awkward construct in Mandarin and does not really match the sound of the Taiwanese word). However, if you say the characters 凍未條 in Mandarin really fast (Pinyin: dòng wèi tiáo), it sounds a little like the Taiwanese word. There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. For one thing, 凍未條 makes no sense if you are trying to read the characters for meaning (凍: freeze 未: not yet 條: long narrow strip). On the other hand, the very fact that the characters are non-sensical indicates to many Taiwanese that they should be read for the sound, and not the meaning. If Taiwanese were a European language, we would probably use the word transliteration to describe this phenomenon. Sometimes, the transliterations can be rather humerous as in the case of tòng-soán (當選: to win an election); the characters chosen to represent the Taiwanese sound, 凍蒜 (Pinyin: dòng suàn), mean "frozen garlic" when taken literally.
2. Nearly all Chinese dialects struggle with this phenomenon. This brings me to your second point. There is a generally excepted way to depict most Taiwanese words with Chinese characters. This is particularly the case for common compounds (such as 語言 POJ: gú-giân, Pinyin: yŭyán). However, there is a lot of variation. This is something that is talked about (or should be) in the Min Nan and Taiwanese pages. I have primarily relied on two sources for column two:

• 台灣話大詞典　(Tâi-ôan-ōe tōa-sû-tián), ISBN 9573240785
• 台語-華語線頂辭典 (Tai-gi hôa-gí sòaⁿ-téng sû-tián)

In cases where multiple variations exist, I try to pick Chinese characters that tend to shed light on the etymological or phonetic origin of the word. For example, the Taiwanese word mài (don't) can be written in Chinese using either 莫 or 勿. I would tend to pick 莫 (Pinyin: mò) over 勿 (Pinyin: wù) because my gut tells me that 勿 was only adopted for use because its meaning matches the Taiwanese mài, whereas 莫 also appears to capture the original sound. A-cai 06:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Blurring between n and l ?

• the distinction between n and l is blurred

I removed the above line from the list of Taiwanese-influenced differences from Mandarin because it is innacurate or needs to be nuanced. Taiwanese language does make a distinction between the two phonemes n and l.

Thus, if there is indeed a blurring between the two sounds in Taiwan (and I don't know if there is; no example of it was given), it cannot be attributed to the lack of a corresponding Taiwanese sound; it should be listed in another category (such as: "influence of Taiwanese cognates", "other influences", or "later phonological shifts", if it were the case).

By the way, it has been noted elsewhere that such blurring is occurring in Cantonese, especially among younger speakers. But that is a Cantonese phenomenon. --HYC 03:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• • HYC is correct in pointing out that the Taiwanese language contains both l and n. It is also true that a portion of Taiwanese speakers of Mandarin have difficulty distinguishing between l and n. This usually stems from a lack of sufficient training in Standard Mandarin. Here is an illustration of the problem:

Chinese	Mandarin (Pinyin)	Taiwanese (POJ)	English
南	nán	lâm	south
藍	lán	nâ	blue

• • For the above two words, n and l are swapped when moving from Taiwanese to Mandarin. This phenominon can occassionally lead to a "hybrid" Taiwanese-Mandarin pronunciation such as "lán" for south!

A-cai 10:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

In Mandarin dialects:

In some (especially southern) areas people do not distinguish between initial l- /l/ and n- /n/ sounds, and may merge them in some or all words, to either l- or n-. --Skyfiler 18:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

basilect vs. acrolect

I have taken a closer look at the Taiwanese influenced section. After reading the definitions for basilect and acrolect, I am not sure that this section accurately captures the situation in Taiwan. Bear in mind that my comments are not from the point of view of an expert in linguistics.

1. It seems to me that the part that talks about pronunciation differences between basilect and acrolect could better be described as the difference between a speaker of Standard Mandarin (which also de-emphasizes the retroflex "r" ending) and a native speaker of Min Nan who speaks Mandarin with a Min Nan accent. I will use two of Taiwan's most well known politicians to illustrate my meaning. Ma Ying-jeou is the current mayor of Taipei. His family came to Taiwan after 1949, he is not a fluent Min Nan speaker. Chen Shui-bian is the president of Taiwan. His ancestors moved to Taiwan from Fujian Province several hundred years ago. Chen is a native Min Nan speaker. Obviously, both of these men give frequent speeches in Mandarin. According to the description in the article, neither of the two should ever pronounce "fei" as "hui" in a formal speech. This is always true for Mayor Ma, but not often true for President Chen. The reason is not because President Chen forgets that he should use the acrolectal form when giving a formal speech. The man has a Min Nan accent!
2. The issue of zh-z, sh-s etc. is not confined to Taiwanese Mandarin. I would call this a feature of Mandarin as spoken in many parts of Southern China. Again, Mayor Ma's parents are from Hunan, but he often says "zeli" rather than "zheli" (here 這裡), even in formal settings (same is true for Lien Chan). On the other hand, I don't often hear him saying "suo" instead of "shuo" (speak 說). Of course, this is my subjective opinion. A speaker with a thick Beijing accent might mistake Mayor Ma's "sh" for an "s" for all I know.

• I am writing this on the discussion page because the section in question was clearly written by a linguistics major. However, I do think my comments should be taken into consideration. Perhaps some of my observations could be worked into the wording.

A-cai 14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

on the same theme, this link brief comparison of the accents of Chen Shui-bian (Taiwanese peasant background), Soong Chu-yu (Hunan mainlander background), and Lien Chan (Taiwanese aristocrat background): [4] --Jiang 05:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Acrolectal Taiwanese Mandarin is more closer to Jiangnan/Shanghai accent of Mandarin, since most educators in Taiwan during the 1950's-1970's came from the Jiangnan region and passed on their Jiangzhe accent to Taiwanese. Even today, Wu Chinese is spoken by a small minority in Taiwan, but it's rapidly becoming extinct. Bloodmerchant (talk) 08:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Loan words from Japanese

I'm not sure that some of the recent additions to the loan words are legitimate. I would say that 'Odobai' and 'Biru' are used almost exclusively in Holo (Taiwanese) and that any use in a Mandarin sentence would fall under code-switching rather than genuine loan words. Thus in my opinion they are loan words from Japanese into Taiwanese, not into Mandarin and so don't belong in this article. Perhaps another article could be created for loan words into Taiwanese? • U|T|E 05:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

In the end, I think it really comes down to where you draw the line between loan words and code-switching, the boundary is often quite fuzzy. As a student I've personally heard various Japanese terms from Holo slang either "Mandarinized" into normal Mandarin speech (sometimes to the point where they're pronounced using Mandarin, i.e. 霸咖/霸咖鴨摟, 頭拉褲), or could be considered in the same category as other Holo loanwords, with the exception that they were in turn loaned from Japanese. (As a side note it's taking me all of my self-restraint not to stick 阿魯巴 under English loanwords.) -Loren 05:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Further examples of transliteration to Mandarin (note that other character variations may exist):

* Obdobai -> 歐都拜

* Baka -> 霸咖

* Obasan -> 歐霸桑

* Odosan -> 歐豆桑

-Loren 06:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What about word from classical chinese that loaned to japanese and then loan back? Notably 達人, since this term is always use in Classical Chinese prior to 20th century. Here is some references in Chinese:

達人

1.通達事理的人。《左傳·昭公七年》：“聖人有明德者，若不當世，其后必有達人。” 孔穎達 疏：“謂知能通達之人。” 晉 葛洪 《抱朴子·行品》：“順通塞而一情，任性命而不滯者，達人也。” 明 徐渭 《自浦城進延平》詩：“循理稱達人，險難亦何慼。” 清 葉廷琯 《鷗陂漁話·莪州公詩》：“造物忌陰謀，達人務遠職。”

2.豁達豪放的人。《列子·楊朱》：“ 衛 端木叔 者， 子貢 之世也。藉其先貲，家累萬金，不治世故，放意所好…… 段干生 聞之曰：‘ 端木叔 達人也，德過其祖矣。’” 漢 賈誼 《鵩鳥賦》：“小智自私兮，賤彼貴我；達人大觀兮，物無不可。” 金 孟宗獻 《張仲山枝巢》詩：“達人孤高與世踈，百年直寄猶須臾。”

3.顯貴的人。 唐 楊炯 《＜王勃集＞序》：“ 晉 室南遷，家聲布於 淮 海； 宋 臣北徙，門德勝於 河 汾 。宏材繼出，達人間峙。” 清 侯方域 《蹇千裡傳》：“ 千裡 凡駑，其先世亦無達人，而能自緣飾，以詩賦顯，致位卿相，嗚呼，亦異矣！”

4.指 韃靼 。達，通“ 韃 ”。 明 余繼登 《典故紀聞》卷十一：“ 正統 初，吏部主事 李賢 言：‘竊見京師 達 人不下萬餘，較之畿民，三分之一。’” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.246.32 (talk) 03:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

Jiang, please explain what's wrong with my edits?--Bonafide.hustla 06:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

1. what is your reason for removing "Taiwan Huayu"?
2. Mandarin links to a disambiguation page. The proper article is Mandarin (linguistics).
3. "is almost identical" --> "somewhat differs": This edit is not factually accurate. The standards are indeed almost identical. Whether people follow the standards is another issue, independent of this statement.
4. "However, Mandarin as spoken informally in Taiwan" --> "Mandarin spoken in Taiwan": The distinction needs to be made between documentary narrator-speak, news anchor-speak, and noodle-shop owner speak. There are clearly differences between formal and informal levels of Mandarin
5. "Also Taiwan does not use the pin-yin system and write in traditional characters as opposed to the PRC.": What does this have to do with Mandarin, which is a spoken language? Taiwan does use the Hanyu Pinyin system, in street signs such as those in Taipei, and in Chinese language schools geared towards non-locals.
6. "Mainlanders" --> "post-1949 immigrants": used in context, the term "mainlanders" is unambiguous in referring to waishengren. --Jiang 08:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

loan words from English?

I was considering adding a section that deals with English proper nouns. Common examples include:

Taiwan	PRC	English
雷根	里根	Reagan
布希	布什	(George W.) Bush
奧克拉荷馬州	俄克拉何马州	Oklahoma

I can't decide if it's overkill or worth the effort. Opinions? -- A-cai (talk) 13:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could start a new article called something like List of proper names translated differently between Taiwanese Mandarin and Mainland Mandarin. That particular one could be too long, though, and I don't know if it's appropriate or not. The idea is nevertheless really good. 石川 (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I would take part in adding words to this list, if someone becomes interested again. Noteably: 巴拉克·奥巴马 Bālākè Àobāmǎ (mainland), in Taiwan the new US President's last name is written and pronounced as 歐巴馬 Ōubāmǎ. Even Chinese Wikipedia uses both, very confusing. Hopefully, with growing cross-straight ties there will be more communication and hopefully less such cases. --Anatoli (talk) 23:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Transcription of names are not loanwords. Having multiple transcriptions of a name is not something special. There are multiple ways to write "Mao Zedong" in English, too. --Voidvector (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It is special enough for a small section or a paragraph describing possibilities of different modern standard transcriptions of the same name in mainland China and Taiwan. This feature also makes 2 versions of Mandarin a little different. For learners it may be of interest to know some major names of people, countries or cities. A comprehensive list is not worth the effort, of course. --Anatoli (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I would support a separate section noting such phenomenon, because names are generally not considered loanwords. Section can mention other aspects as well, such as movie titles (e.g. some are translated literally, some are given a whole new name). --Voidvector (talk) 22:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

More pronunciation differences

I really think there ought to be more emphasis on the differences in pronunciation. It should contain not just differences of certain words, and differences where it is close to Min-nan accent, but more subtle and general ones. For instance, according to the Standard Mandarin article, there is this phoneme /ɤ/, but it is often realized as /ə/ from my experience.

Another striking difference is the final /ɤŋ/: when preceded by "b, p, m, f", it is almost never pronounced that way, but instead as /ɔŋ/ or /oŋ/. The same goes for /uɤŋ/ ([ʊŋ] with initials) being pronounced /uɔŋ/ or /uoŋ/ ([ɔŋ] or [oŋ] with initials).

Also, after certain vowels like /i/ or /ə/, /n/ and /ŋ/ are identical, both in realization and in perception. This is particularly evident in cases where people writing online often mistype 因該 when it should be 應該. Relatively fewer people even have trouble distinguishing betwenn /an/ and /ɑŋ/.

Of course, these are not linguistic observations, and I don't know if these phenomenons are really "differences", but in either case it would be worthwhile to include the information in either this article or Standard Mandarin.

石川 (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Dialect or Accent

I found that this article refers to Mandarin spoken in Taiwan which in Chinese is only 國語. Because it's brought from mainland China by the KMT, and before that Taiwanese are used to speak Taiwanese and then are forced to speak Chinese only, they had a strong accent, which is called 台灣國語. So this title Taiwan Mandarin seems to be a translation of 台灣國語, which only means the accent of the RC version of Mandarin. Therefore there are also words different to PRC Mandarin. A close look to the Chinese article of 台灣國語 shows in the first few sentences, that it is called an accent. (I mean the article zh:台灣國語, which is recently linked with another article: zh:中華民國國語文) What I suggest now is, to rename this article, because 台灣國語 means only the accent of 中華民國國語文. This article is the same with the zh.wiki's 中華民國國語文. And I would volunteer to write a new article with some others about the accent "Taiwanese Mandarin". 快樂龍 15:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I just found, that zh:國語 (中華民國) redirecs to 中華民國國語文. 快樂龍 15:13, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

If there is no appeal, I'm gonna move this article to Guoyu (Republic China), link that on Guoyu and write a stub on Taiwanese Mandarin at first. 快樂龍 03:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a good idea, at the first glance. So Chinese has only one article and a redirect? "Taiwanese Mandarin" is a more common term in English. Accents and other features can be described in one article. Unlike "Putonghua", "Guoyu" is hardly used in English. Anatoli (talk) 04:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I can understand, if at first there is no need for an article for a accent, but to mix 國語 with 台灣國語 is definetely wrong. This article describes 國語, while 台灣國語 is that accent. So 台灣國語 is Taiwan Mandarin, and 國語 is Guoyu (Republic China). 快樂龍 07:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyu (國語) is addressed in Standard Mandarin. This article is about the dialect of Taiwanese Mandarin: the Mandarin with Taiwanese usage and accent (台灣式的國語或普通話).--pyl (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we agree that 國語 is Mandarin. But wen you talk about an dialect (方言), then you say that 台語/民南話, 四川話 or 香港話 are some examples. But no one in Taiwan or Mainland would say, that 台灣國語 is an accent. It is an dialect resulting from mother tongues of 民南話 start to learn 國語. Just the same was when a Italian starts to speak English for the first time. 快樂龍 14:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No.

• accent = 腔調 or 口音
• dialect = 方言

I think you got the Chinese translations wrong.

台語/閩南話, 四川話 or 香港話 are languages (語言), or to other people, dialects (方言).

Taiwanese Mandarin (台灣式的國語) is a dialect (方言) of Standard Mandarin (國語).

The analogy between Italian and English is unsound, as Min Nan Chinese and Mandarin Chinese share the same set of written characters and the grammar (文法) is extremely similar. The main difference is the pronunciation of the characters. However, Italian and English don't share the same alphabets and they have very different grammar.

And there is no such thing as "民南話". It is a made up term and it doesn't mean anything. The correct term is "閩南話", meaning the language of Southern Min (Fujian).--pyl (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I had one typo. I'm aware that a dialect is 方言. I corrected it above.

Then just take an example on German and Flamish. Grammar and words are very similar, the point is the pronunciation. When I said an Italian learning English I also mean, that his pronunciation will probably not proper at the benginning (next to grammar and vocs).

Why do you think 台灣國語 is a dialect? If you ever have been to Taiwan and ask anybody what 台灣國語 is, then everybody will tell you, it's an accent. If you even say to someone, that he speaks 台灣國語, then he might be angry and say, that his 中文 or 國語 is very proper instead.

Another thing is just the zh.wiki article zh:台灣國語. I found this: 台灣國語是在台灣流行的一個戲謔名詞，指帶有強烈閩南語口音及用法的現代標準漢語。 It just says: 台灣國語 is a modern joke name and means a strong accent of 閩南語 while speaking 現代標準漢語. 快樂龍 10:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" will be taken by the average native English speaker generally to mean the various strains of Mandarin that are used by people living in Taiwan. I think that this accurately describes the intent of the English article. Similarly, we have articles for American English and British English. The debate about whether to call anything a language, dialect or accent is frought with difficulties because these are imprecise terms (see: A language is a dialect with an army and navy). -- A-cai (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent for easier reading)

I am aware of the Taiwanese Mandarin usage. Mandarin and Taiwanese are my native languages (you might already be aware of that from my user page).

Yes, the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" can be a derogatory term and I had this conversation with Readin earlier about this when she wanted to put "Taiwanese Mandarin" as the official language of the Republic of China. The official language of the ROC is Standard Mandarin. I wouldn't want to be described as a person who speaks Taiwanese Mandarin myself. There is nothing wrong with having a Taiwanese accent when Mandarin is spoken, but the derogatory meaning of the term is not flattering.

Taiwanese Mandarin is more than just a localised accent. There is no doubt that the Taiwanese accent is different from Beijing or Shanghai accent when Mandarin is spoken. But Taiwanese Mandarin also has localised usages which are not part of the mainland usage. The examples are "計程車", "龜毛" or "鬱卒". By having localised accent and usuage from Standard Mandarin, it makes Taiwanese Mandarin a dialect of Mandarin.

I agree with A-cai. That's exactly what "Taiwanese Mandarin" means in this article. Using your words, it means the Taiwan localised version (地方語言 "方言") of the many strains of Mandarin. This article is not about the ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin, as that is covered in the Standard Mandarin article itself.--pyl (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

That is the reason, why I'm a bit astonished. I also speak with that accent and whenever I heard someone being told, that she/he speaks 台灣國語, it was always kind of a blaming or a joke. Whenever I asked other Taiwanese or Mainlanders about 台灣國語, they say it is an accent. Even zh.wiki says that.

Your point about those words, which are only used in Taiwan, is right. But I think you can compare that with e.g. Chinglish, Singlish, Denglisch etc. They also have little differences in grammar and usage of words. That doesn't make them an dialect yet.

My words are, that this article should describe an accent, ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin is already described in Standard Mandarin快樂龍 13:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Chinglish, Singlish, Denglisch are considered to be dialects of the English language, just like Taiwanese Mandarin is a dialect of the Mandarin Chinese language.

The thing is, terms like "龜毛" or "鬱卒" are not part of ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin. You won't see them in textbooks. They are informal terms only used in Taiwan as part of Taiwanese Mandarin. So if you want to change this article to do what you are proposing, then we have to remove all those informal terms that are not part of Standard Mandarin.

If you like, you can add the ROC regulated Standard Madarin terms like "計程車" (出租車 for PRC) or "雷射" (激光 for PRC) in a separate section of the Standard Mandarin article, as these are proper Standard Mandarin terms used by the ROC government.--pyl (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, if you think it is appropraite, we can call Taiwanese Mandarin a Creole of Standard Mandarin. Check Singlish article. --pyl (talk) 14:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the term "variant" or "strain" would be more appropriate. The term "creole" may confuse some readers. Also, recognize that non-standard use of any language may be subject to ridicule by users of the "standard language." In the United States, speakers of Southern American English are often victims of a stereotype that associates that dialect with rednecks. -- A-cai (talk) 14:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Just like in Taiwan, the speakers of Taiwanese Mandarin are often considered to be rednecks too.

I think "variant" or "strait" is fine too.--pyl (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

No, you misunderstand me. As they are part of it, they have to be listed as in those other three articles. Chinglish etc. are no accents. If you search through those articles, then you'll find it's nowhere written that they are accents. About creole I'm not sure yet. I would like to check that first. Variant and strain would indicate, that it is a language.

What I propose is, that we just change the introduction, the interpretation of it. And call it an accent or maybe an creole. Just as zh.wiki does. 快樂龍 —Preceding undated comment added 15:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC).

The terms "variant," "variety," "dialect" and "strain" do not imply anything about whether "Taiwanese Mandarin" and Standard Mandarin are mutually intelligible. African American Vernacular English is described appropriately as a variety of American English. In general, African American Vernacular English (with the exception of its most extreme forms) can be understood by a speaker of Standard American English. Similarly, California English is described as a "dialect" of the English language. Again, California English can be easily understood by a speaker of British English, despite diferences of vocabulary and pronunciation. In general, the term "accent" refers to variations within the same mutually intelligible language ("accent" usually only describes features of pronunciation. It is not generally used to describe vocabulary diferences). -- A-cai (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The example of African American Vernacular English is very striking. I would suggest the term variety, because even if dialect doesn't imply that Taiwanese Mandarin and Standard Mandarin are mutually intelligle, e.g. Taiwanese is also described as an accent, but to be categorized different than Taiwanese Mandarin. I see know, that the Chinese word for accent is misleading in this categorisation and not suitable, different to its Chinese categorisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuaile Long (talk • contribs) 16:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

There's definitely some confusion in this article between the accented Mandarin that's called 台灣國語 and Mandarin used in Taiwan. Personally, the literal English translation Taiwanese Mandarin sound like it refers to the accent instead of usage of Standard Mandarin in Taiwan, but that's up for debate. On the other hand, the article clearly mixes these two things and it should be distinguished. No one in Taiwan would call 台灣國語 a dialect, everyone knows it's an incorrect pronunciation of Mandarin. (AFAIK, Taiwanese is not an accent (口音), it's a dialect (方言), there's no confusion to Chinese people.) This distinction should be made, and for those that are unconvinced, they should just go ask a Taiwanese person. --Kenny Chang —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.41.47 (talk) 01:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

ZH-TW

I do not like the target of this re-direct, so I have raised this issue at Redirects for Discussion (2010 April 27). 华钢琴49 (TALK) 23:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

It's commonly used here on Wikipedia, and most of the time when the Taiwanese language (Mandarin) is used it's Zh-Tw, not Cn-Tw, or Tw-Tw or something, Zh is the standard for Mandarin, and Tw is the variant, the same distinction between Hong-Kong Mandarin and Hong-Kong normal Chinese (Cantonese).

Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 09:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

misin

oate/chubao/xue>xie +lots ofrepititn i/art.--pl.note:i'v[[RSI]]>typin=v.v.hard4me!>contactme thruMSNpl.if unclear[sven70=alias (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

same words different meaning

公共汽車 I think in Taiwan this is a bus, and mainland this is a government official's vehicle. If anyone wants to confirm this and put it up? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.181.41 (talk) 02:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone call a bus that before, ever. Only 公車. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.179.5 (talk) 05:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

公共汽車is the official way to describe "bus" in Taiwan, for example, 公共汽車管理處, 公共汽車客運業管理辦法. Cervantes80 (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"kawaii"/"可愛"

Who wrote that "可愛" is from the Japanese "kawaii"? I was initially merely surprised, but then I notice that whoever added it hadn't filled in the column for the Mainland preferred usage, and also had given the pinyin as "ke4 ai" even though it's definitely "ke3 ai4". Course I've been out-of-country for many years now, and maybe all you Taiwanese younglings are pronouncing it that way these days -- if so, do tell. Otherwise, I suspect that this is not an accurate addition. If there is radio silence after a week, I will go ahead and delete it. --14 February 2011

The term "可愛" can be found in literature back in the Han dynasty. It is definitely not originated from Japanese. Cervantes80 (talk) 22:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

落跑

I don't think that 落跑 is derived from Taiwanese. It would be like from other Chinese dialect. Especially 跑 is very rarely used in Taiwanese. On the Internet we can find many folk etymologies about Taiwanese terms. We should be careful about that.luuva (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

/ɻ/

Taiwanese people pronounce /z/ for /ɻ/ ? Fête (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Misleading Title

Taiwanese Mandarin is different than Guoyu. Taiwanese Mandarin is inflected with Hokkien accents while Guoyu is neutral sounding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Interwiki problem

Currently on Wikidata, this article links to zh:中華民國國語 on the Chinese Wikipedia. However, on the Chinese Wikipedia there are multiple articles spread around various similar but distinct topics, namely zh:臺灣國語 (lit. "Taiwan national language") and zh:台灣華語 (lit. "Taiwan Mandarin"). Is the current interwiki link to zh:中華民國國語 (lit. "Republic of China national language") desirable? --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:05, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

We have to go by the WP:COMMONNAME, whenever I use the other stuff exists argument I either run across a less than capable person who simply "doesn't care" or a wall of people claiming that different wiki's have different guidelines, despite the fact that the official page claims that if it's reasonable should be considered, but I've used "the other wiki" argument and most people would refer to it as "irrelevant" so I wonder if any of this might help.

Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 09:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@Benlisquare:zh:臺灣國語 is not "Taiwan national language". 臺灣國語 is abbreviation of "臺灣式中華民國國語", which means "ROC national language with Taiwanese accent".--Liaon98 (talk) 19:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Confusion

"the syllable written as pinyin: eng before b, f, m, p and w is pronounced as [ʊŋ] in all tones."

You mean "after" not "before", don't you? --2.245.67.97 (talk) 16:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Script

Non-phonetic Chinese writing systems (e.g. traditional versus simplified) are independent of dialect. The fact that Taiwan uses traditional characters is independent of their speaking Taiwanese Mandarin--the former is a political choice while the latter is more an evolution of Standard Mandarin as was spoken in China's Republican era. In my opinion, the "Script" section in the differences section and any other references where the Taiwanese Mandarin and traditional characters appear to be related should be removed. Mingjai (talk) 21:29, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Taiwanese-influenced pronunciation

I deleted the entries that said qi > ki and chi > tu. That's nonsense. Chi might become cu for a person with a really heavy accent, but never tu. Added a [citation needed] note on "ng before b, f, m, p and w is pronounced as [ʊŋ] in all tones", although the vowel isn't [ʊ], but closer to [o], even more open. Don't have any references for that one right now though. The overall lack of citations in this section is disturbing. Goderich (talk) 11:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Taiwan Mandarin against Taiwanese Mandarin

As suggested by two of my friends as linguistics scholars and considering semantics difference in the pair, I think we should decide whether to change the name of the entry, content as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asvaghosa (talk • contribs) 14:46, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Hi Asvaghosa, claims of people from real-life agree with you is not a good enough reason on Wikipedia, you need sources. Also your last edit reverted a blind search-replace that introduced factual errors (changing two book titles) and broke an image. Please find and add references to back this suggestion and get WP:Consensus before such changes. You may like to ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Taiwan for opinions. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Good points; I'll take that and be back later--Asvaghosa (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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British spelling?

@Szqecs:, @Szqecs1: was there any British spelling in this article before you made this change? Note that MOS:RETAIN says that "an article should not be edited... simply to switch from one variety of English to another." Phlar (talk) 20:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Standard Taiwanese Mandarin

Standard Taiwanese Mandarin and Putonghua may be in parallel, but I wouldn't say Standard Taiwanese Mandarin is derived from or secondary to Putonghua! ha ha ha! I believe it is more likely that China has a standard form of Mandarin and Taiwan has a standard form of Mandarin which are pretty similar. That's all. No need to bring in an extra step there. No disrespect to anyone is intended, but this does need to be clarified. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:11, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Differing usage or preference - college

would the word for college fit into this section? Guoyu usually use 大學 to refer to the step after secondary education while Putonghua speakers use 本科 (Guoyu speaker raised in the US) 2601:7C0:C500:8610:2C4D:B45F:3A7:9062 (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Taiwanese Mandarin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 19:07, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Will take this one. My 台灣國語 is better than my 普通话 but both aren't as good as I would like... Comments to follow in a few days. —Kusma (talk) 19:07, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Progress box and general comments

• I am enjoying reading this, and some of my comments will add my own WP:OR when I talk from my own experience (especially about differences), so don't add anything I say without proper sources :) —Kusma (talk) 21:35, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
• I am making more comments than are strictly necessary to satisfy the GA criteria. If you feel something I ask for goes beyond the GA criteria and you don't want to work on it, just tell me. —Kusma (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
• Is there any influence of Hong Kong on Taiwanese Mandarin? (After all, for about 50 years Hong Kong was the geographically closest and most easily accessible Chinese-speaking area from Taiwan).
• First reading done, a well-researched and interesting article! I do wonder whether it can be made easier to read, especially for someone who can't read Chinese. I still need to check various small things for some criteria so I'm not quite done reviewing, but I can add a couple of ticks now. Various prose/structure/content comments below. —Kusma (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you, and I appreciate the comments thus far! (I think the influence of HK Mandarin is probably minimal given how little influence HK Mandarin has historically had vs. Canto in HK itself; and I don't recall really ever seeing much to that effect in the literature.) Life hit me with a whole lotta responsibilities about 24 hours after submitting this GA review, so please no rush — I'm going to do my best to fix it up ASAP, hopefully this time next week at the latest. Again, appreciate your feedback so far! WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 02:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Lead section

 Done First impression: Lead spends a lot of time defining terms, and I don't think it really "stand[s] on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic" as MOS:LEAD tells us (some divergences and differences exist is perhaps a bit short to cover all of Section 5). Will come back to this later.

• ( Done) We do have an article about 教育部國語辭典, at Ministry of Education Mandarin Chinese Dictionary. Link that instead of linking to zhwiki.
  • WtY: I agree, and I will work on fixing this. I think moving some of this information down to the terminology section as long as it isnt redundant will suffice. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 16:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Rewrote the lead section, so marking this as done, pending any other comments from you. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 22:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Terms and definition

• Generally underlinked. (Chinese language, Sinitic languages, Sino-Tibetan languages, Mandarin Chinese, Varieties of Chinese etc.)
  • Question: I assumed that since these are done in the infobox and the lead, they'd be redundant elsewhere. (My reading of WP:OVERLINK. Are there specific examples you have in mind? (If so, feel free to fill them in to avoid the hassle of going back-and-forth here, if that's easier for you)
    • I usually try to make the body of the article work on its own. My brain usually ignores infoboxes (or treats them as the caption for the lead image), so I wouldn't know whether any terms are linked there. Personally, I think MOS:LINKONCE is wrong, and terms should be linked more than once in long articles, to help readers on mobile devices or small screens and those who read only one section. Anyway, I will add the links I think are needed.
• Many linguists, some linguists etc: is this what the sources say or can this be made a little more concrete? (WP:SOME)
  •  Done Reworded one of these ("Some linguists further differentiate..." into "Guoyu can be further differentiated...") — this is a pretty common practice, see the cited source and e.g. zh:臺灣國語. (Special:Diff/1123857285) Also changed "Many" to "some" (i.e. Her and Sanders, both cited) and added the relevant quote from Sanders, which is not paginated in the version I'm able to access (Special:Diff/1123858191)
    • The PDF is paginated, so you could use that.
• You use Guoyu and Putonghua, but "Southern Min / Hokkien" instead of Minnanhua or Taiyu as these are frequently called, which looks a bit odd to me (haven't met people who say "Hokkien" when they mean 台語). Also, it might be easier to read if you stick to one word instead of alternating "Hokkien" and "Southern Min".
  • Noted, and I'll see about changing this. Part of the issue seems to be that Hokkien is the more precise term preferred by some linguist sources I've read in English, but it's often just 閩南語 in Mandarin (mainly because Hokkien itself is just 福建 and no one says that in Mandarin). I'll probably adjust to "Southern Min"/Taiyu — the latter appears in English sources, but usually Minnanhua is transalted as Southern Min, I think.
    • I don't know what is more common in linguistic sources, but I think Minnanhua or Minnanyu or even Taiyu would work fine in parallel to Guoyu and Putonghua, as long as you define it once and then try to use it consistently. I would also accept "Hokkien" but please don't mix it with other terms that mean the same.

History and usage

•  Done I am sure there were also some aboriginal languages spoken in Taiwan.
  • There are, but that amounts to less than 1% of the population at present and there is little influence of them on Guoyu outside of a few place names, so I have not mentioned that. I think it's sort of like talking about Ojibwe in an article about Quebec French: they were both spoken in proximity to each other, but by two very distinct groups with limited linguistic influence on the latter. But this is not an opinion I hold strongly, so happy to add something if you have any suggestions.
    • My point is that Official communications were made in Mandarin (官話 Guānhuà, lit. 'official language'), but the primary languages of everyday life were Hokkien or Hakka. only refers to the everyday life of Chinese immigrants, not of everyone in Taiwan, and it could be read as if we are pretending the aboriginal people do not exist.
      • Ah, I see what you mean. That makes sense. I added two sentences about that (Special:Diff/1120085883/1120182415). Thanks for pointing that out.
•  DoneMany who had fled the mainland after the fall of the KMT also spoke non-standard varieties of Mandarin, which would later influence colloquial pronunciations. I'm not totally sure I recognise this in the source, given also that p. 49 is about Singapore.
  • The citation is for pages 47–49, and the relevant stuff is mostly on page 47: "The phenomenon may be attributable to the fact that when Modern Standard Chinese was first introduced to Taiwan in the 1940s, the majority of new immigrants to the island spoke and adulterated guóyǔ…" — I modulated the sentence somewhat to include the "may" and changed the citation to just page 47
•  DoneEnglish classes are often preferred by parents and students over mother tongue classes does this mean there is a choice whether to take English or Taiwanese (or Hakka/aboriginal) lessons? (Hakka Chinese should also be linked)
  • From the source: "Mandarin still has the lion’s share in language policy support. Mother tongue classes are generally limited to 1 hour a week, compared to 7–10 hours a week for Mandarin ... In addition, mother tongue classes are competing with English language programs. ... Due largely to parental pressure, many education authorities, especially in urban centers, now begin teaching English programs in Grade 1. ... English is usually given more emphasis than the mother tongues. While in the lower grades mother tongue may have equal or more class-time than English (i.e. one period a week), two English classes a week is common in Grades 5 and 6." Re-reading the source, I've rewritten this sentence to Greater time and resources are devoted to both Mandarin and English, which are compulsory subjects, compared to mother tongue instruction.
•  Done Link Taipei, Taoyuan, Hsinchu.
•  Done So I gather Guoyu as primary language is on the rise? I am a bit confused because I (anecdotal evidence alert) see so much Taiyu in films and music.
  • It's known that the younger you are, the more likely you are to primarily communicate via Guoyu. The rise of Taiyu is more because it is bouncing back from the artificial zero it was at for most of the martial law era, I think. I added a line with a source about the stratification via age in Special:Diff/1120081988.
    • That explains it better. Since 2003, I have been to Taiwan for less than a week so I'm (a) old and (b) not totally up to date :) Twenty years ago it was still common to meet people who spoke little or no 國語, especially in the South. However, the most unexpected place for me to encounter 台語 was at an electoral rally for the 2000 election in Taipei, where James Soong (宋楚瑜) of all people was speaking in Taiwanese. After that experience and Chen's presidency, I expected Taiwanese to be on the rise. Always good to learn when I'm wrong. —Kusma (talk) 21:44, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Script

•  Done Why is の for 的 or 之 not mentioned here?
  • also removed a sentence about the use of の in Minnanyu because it was sort of trivia, I think. Special:Diff/1126857341
•  DoneBraille: could you go into a little more detail here on what the difference is? The systems seem to be based on very similar ideas.
  • There's not a whole lot comparing the two directly that I was able to find, though I did expand a bit based on what the existing Omniglot source cited already says. (final change after copyedit Special:Diff/1126858855)
•  DoneZhuyin fuhao: Could mention that many children's and early reader books use bopomofo as ruby characters. Taiwan is the only Chinese-speaking polity to use the system but it was in use in the ROC on the mainland in the 1930s as well I think, and probably in the PRC as well until Hanyu pinyin was introduced to schools in the late 1950s.
  • Done, see dif below, except for the mainland usage — I had a hard time finding info on that. I think because a) literacy is so low and b) there were so many competing romanization schemes it's hard to say how widespread its use was. Will keep an eye out, though
    • Anecdotal evidence: 1921 bible in Bopomofo. I think it was also used in several dictionaries but I couldn't find an accessible one. The fact that there were several Bopomofo reforms (see zh:注音符號 in the 1920s also points towards some use. —Kusma (talk) 10:31, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
•  Done *Zhuyin representing Taiwanese nationalism: page number? isn't it more identity than nationalism that the article talks about?
  • Reworded, I was being sloppy with terminology there Special:Diff/1126862593
    • Much better!
•  DoneNational Phonetic Symbols, Second Scheme isn't this usually called Mandarin Phonetic Symbols II?
  • Yes, replaced with that link

Phonology

•  Done I am wondering whether you should indicate to readers that you will later give a list of characters pronounced differently.
  • Done
•  Done Mention that erhua is super common in Beijing dialect?
  • Done, added with Chen citation on page 39
•  Done Again, it is perhaps not clear that "Hokkien" and "Southern Min" are the same.
  • Fixed
•  Done I don't fully understand the thing about retroflex sounds and hypercorrection. Who are the "non-native speakers" here? Native Taiwanese who aren't native speakers of Guoyu? (The phenomenon certainly doesn't seem common among European learners of Chinese). Also, what about the many speakers who don't use retroflex sounds?
  • In the context of that statement, yes, exactly. There are elderly Han Taiwanese (less and less nowadays) who did not learn Mandarin in school well, if at all — before the KMT, they were learning Japanese in school and speaking Minnanyu or Hakka at home. The citation is from 1985, when this was much more common, so I've reworded it a bit given that that is naturally less and less likely now, from "most non-native speakers" to "some speakers", which is technically still supported by the underlying citation. Added another citation as well, a more recent one. (In my experience, you do still hear this when people are trying to be conscious about "good" pronunciation. E.g. I stayed in a Hakka area once and had waiters talk like this (inconsistently in the same utterance, even) possibly because I was a foreigner who approached them with my "proper" Guoyu. It's very interesting.)
•  Done Can you give more concrete examples for some of the shifts? (e.g. does eng->ong happen in 風? Does Tongyong pinyin reflect Taiwan Guoyu pronunciation here? Do you mean reading 男 as lan?)
  • Gave a few more examples, including 風.. Some are tricky due to pinyin restrictions (e.g. there's no 'e' in the IPA sense in pinyin on its own, for the last bullet about -ei/ui -> -e). To my knowledge, Tongyong wasn't attempting to cover this.
•  Done Tone quality images would probably look better if together and in the same section, e.g. using {{multiple image}} or {{gallery}}

Differences from mainland Putonghua

•  Done Aren't some of the topics discussed in the previous two section also differences?
  • Reordered sections to make that less confusing — now the vocab differences one is its own section.
•  Done Pronunciations: what is your source for These differences are primarily but not exclusively tonal and peer-reviewed, scholarly research on the subject is scarce?
  • The former becomes clear looking through the 两岸辞典, but I wasn't able to find a source. Re: the peer-reviewed stuff, I think my exasperation at not being able to find someone stating the obvious made me accidentally editorialize/insert some OR of my own, oops. I think that having more examples with tonal differences conveys the idea to some extent. Removing both sentences.
•  Done Quantification of the extent of pronunciation differences between Guoyu and Putonghua vary varies?
• Thank you for the list of differences. Now I finally know why I pronounce 暫 different from the teachers at my local Confucius Institute.
  • A lot of native speakers on either side often aren't aware of it!
•  Done For another example difference that is not just tonal or retroflex/non-retroflex, what about 垃圾 (le4se4 / la1ji1)?
  • This one is the only one I know of where both characters are pronounced differently, interestingly. I went ahead and added it with a note as to why both characters are included (as opposed to each individually, as for the others in the list)). Special:Diff/1124856045
• Nice examples for different words / different preference, but I guess many words are also different between Beijing and Southern parts of Mainland China. (腳踏車 vs 自行车 and 番茄 vs 西红柿 are examples I think?)
  • Yeah, and I tried to find sourcing to state as much, but a lot seems to be locked in CNKI or in graduate theses. Not surprising given that Southern Min etc. exist on the mainland too, so you'd expect to see similar lexical exchange.
•  Done Words specific to Guoyu: mention what the example ㄍㄧㄥ means? Source for this?
  • (Update: removed this part, interesting but probably too trivial, all things considered) The Wiktionary link gives the definition, which I had a hard time condensing ("nonexpressive and nervously tense; rarely showing feelings; inhibited; stiff and uncomfortable") — I could gloss as inhibited/tense. It's an example I am familiar with because of how frequently it appears in Mandarin news in Taiwan (Google news search). I was kinda hoping this could be shoehorned into Sky is Blue territory, but I could also cite one of those news articles (I was wary of getting too close into original research territory). Alternatively, ㄎㄧㄤ kiàng is much more common I think (but no wiktionary entry) — thoughts on this as a source? This article insists on writing it as a Hanzi despite people mostly using the Zhuyin. Might just have to drop it or shove into a footnote.
• You usually give many nice examples, and also many terms unique to Guoyu were adopted from Japanese would work better with examples. Just saw that you have examples later; why not combine in one place?
•  Done Particles: Wu (2006) argues is influenced by a similar la particle in Hokkien copyedit this sentence.
•  Done The paragraph about の might work better in the "Script" section.
•  Done Why do we have Lin (2014) and Wu (2006) and then later "according to one linguist"?
  • Fixed, I think
•  Done Loan words: 酸奶酪 for yogurt isn't really a transliteration, it is more an example where one version is a transliteration and the other a translation.
  • Yeah. Removed the line, there are plenty of other examples.
• Some local foods are usually referred by their Hokkien names. Oh yes. Never heard a Mandarin word for 蚵仔煎. But do you have a source for this?
  • That actually might be a small remnant from the pre-overhaul article. And it's another frustrating example of "this is obviously true and everyone knows it but it seems so obvious that no scholarly cares/bothers writing it down" (insert rage emoji) (same problem with the ㄎㄧㄤ kiàng above). This very non-scholarly source sort of hints at it. It really is such a funny nuance; technically, the Guoyu is just ézǐjiān. It's a loan in the sense that only a non-native student or mainlander might read it like that, but no one in Taiwan would — except, of course, for the Ministry of Education, because they're extremely prescriptive and doesn't like acknowledging nonstandard forms. Might need to just cut that out, unfortunately. (did that)
•  Done From Japanese: 民主 and 革命 certainly are also perfectly acceptable Putonghua words, as they were imported into Chinese well before 1950?
  • Yes, that's what I try to get at in the first paragraph. Added a link to the Meiji and Taishō eras and a sentence making it more clear, Special:Diff/1127968990.
•  Done Wiktionary only has スカンク as "skunk", not also as "to lose completely".
  • Fixed — it was スコンク, not スカンク. Japanese Wiktionary ja:wikt:スコンク has "total loss" as a definition for the former — which, weirdly, it claims came from English. Go figure.

Grammar

• The grammar of Taiwanese Mandarin is largely identical to Standard Mandarin as spoken in mainland inaCh, Putonghua. As with its lexicon and phonology, differences from Putonhua often stem from the influence of Hokkien. Something needs to be fixed, and not just the typos. Why do you introduce "Standard Mandarin" here again and do not use "Guoyu"? Also, sentence is uncited.
  • Reworded. As for the citation, I intended it to just be a sort of general restatement of what is covered in the section. I'll look around for something that states that explicitly and note here when I find it.
    • Makes sense, although the story with separable verbs doesn't have an obvious Minnanyu connection.
•  Done Min grammar don't introduce yet another way to say Taiyu unless you want to make a point of talking about a larger class of dialects.
•  Done I don't have the fonts installed to display it, I had to look through Wiktionary and find (nicer alternative to 袂) to understand that also 我袂熱 fits with a discussion about 會。
  • This one is tricky. That character is definitely more illustrative, but the "most correct" one, at least according to the Ministry of Education, is in fact 袂. 勿+會 is listed as a nonstandard variant in the MoE Taiyu dictionary. Do you think a note would be a good way to include that (I agree that it's interesting, though I want to avoid shoving a picture inline for the almost universially unsupported character if possible)?
    • A footnote could be nice, but as this is highly specialised and mostly only targeted at people who care about written 閩南話, I agree it shouldn't be discussed in the main text, especially given that 袂 is official.
      • Added a footnote for funsies :) — Special:Diff/1127947775
•  Done This is not true of all separable verbs in Guoyu, and prescriptive texts still opt to treat these verbs as separable. all of the separable verbs including 幫忙?
  • Reworded to disambiguate (all separable verbs -> every separable verb). 幫忙 is one example, and by far the most commonly discussed. Other ones I can think of off the top of my head are 打臉 (Internet slang, 'to humiliate/cause someone to be embarassed/show someone up', see e.g. this headline) and 求婚 （你求婚過嗎？ is acceptable as opposed to 你求過婚嗎?)
    • When talking to Mainland Chinese, I do get the feeling I'm not separating verbs as often as they are, so probably there are a few more.

Notes

• Note 4 about zhwiki might also go into a See Also / External links section
•  Done Note 5: 乎 common in Classical Chinese is uncited
  • Reworded to "a Classical Chinese particle"
• Note 8: I don't understand why you talk about Yang and Sanders here, as they aren't mentioned. That 他會來嗎？ is not OK in Putonghua would also require a citation I think.
  •  Done That note was a very convoluted attempt to explain why I used Guoyu and not Standard or Taiwan Guoyu. Technically, it's the result of Minnanyu influence — but it's also common even in Standard Guoyu speech, suggesting it's been adopted as a norm, unlike other aspects of Minnanyu influence. But I messed up in quoting that example: 他會來 is not relevant here. Fixed here: Special:Diff/1128584664

Citations / References

Will do a formatting / reliability / spot check source review, but not today. —Kusma (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Looking at Special:Permanentlink/1117850418.
•  Done Lots of refs look like they really should have page numbers, for instance 6, 8, 12, 17, 18, 22, 23, ...
•  Done Avoid typesetting Chinese in italics. There are |script-title= and similar options in some of the citation templates, and if all else fails, {{noitalic}}.
  • Very good to know, thank you — fixed
•  Done What makes the Brubaker PhD thesis and especially the two master's theses from 師大 high quality reliable sources? See WP:SCHOLARSHIP for the criteria. I think you have so many scholarly sources that you should be able to work without these three.
  • removed the PhD. For the MAs, Wu is kept, as discussed below, and Nan is further contextualized as graduate research in the body and not cited definitively.
•  Done The 兩岸常用詞典 (68, 69, 70, 72, 73 etc.) could use access-date and possibly an archive (and it is an awesome resource, just added it to my Pleco). Most are ok without translating the title, but 80 perhaps could use one.
  • I agree on archiving, and I'll start that process. Big bummer that User:InternetArchiveBot has been down for so long :(
•  Done 71 could use a translated title for consistency
•  Done Why is 122 a citation footnote instead of a sfn reference?
  • Made into sfn

Overall lots of reliable sources, formatting is good but not fully internally consistent. Text-source integrity spotchecks to follow. —Kusma (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello! I have a moment at the airport so I'll address the master's thesis etc. quickly. At Special:Diff/1120011484 I have a note justifying the Wu master thesis inclusion. The Brubaker thesis and the Nan masters thesis can probably be removed, and I will do so when revising, though I do like that Nan provides another metric for differences in cross-strait pronunciation. I relied on Nan because there is a weird gap in terms of actual hard numbers when it comes to the question "just how many things are pronounced differently"? Technically, things like the Cross-Strait Dictionary could answer that question if I just counted them, but that might be weird OR or something, so I just went with the thesis in the case of Nan. It's also more current than the 1992 Li study, which I can imagine being relevant given how in 1992 the ROC and PRC had barely an interaction whatsoever, so linguistic differences may have been more pronounced. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 16:42, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, sounds reasonable I think. Couple of random spotchecks so I can feel I have finished my review properly:

•  Done 96 Lin 2014 is another thesis (although published), and I couldn't find it via the ISBN given. Linking to [5] is more useful than the ISBN here. Citation should use page numbers.
•  Done I couldn't find the "isochrony is more syllable timed" of footnote 47 in Chen 1999. I did find the remaining remarks, if expressed a bit differently (but I think that is good).
  • That's a holdover from the pre-rewrite article that I apparently didn't bother to check; it's definitely not in Chen. Some thesis cites that to Kubler 1985 but he doesn't talk about isochrony. very possibly OR. Fixed. Special:Diff/1128183233/1128191517
•  Done Why not use Hsieh/Hsu 2006 when you talk about Japanese loanwords? Also has more examples including 甜不辣 and chotto matte (or do people no longer say that? I spent a lot of time with people saying that a lot in 2000).
•  Done Merge 111 into 109?
•  Done 117 should have a page number.
•  Done Checked a few others. Wiedenhof seems a nice grammar mentioning a few grammatical differences (p. 214 says 有沒有 should stand together in a question in putonghua, but can be split to 有...沒有 in Taiwanese Mandarin.
  • Added some more info from Wiedenhof along those lines.

The more I look, the more I am impressed by the breadth of your sources. But perhaps you should go through all sfn's and try to add page numbers or think of a specific reason not to have them... —Kusma (talk) 21:57, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Finally done with this section. Also expanded a bit to be more specific on the Minnanyu loanwords. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 23:44, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Images

• Licensing status seems ok.
• Consider whether the tone images would work better as a gallery or with {{multiple image}}.
• Captions usually don't end with a period unless they are a full sentence.
• Infobox image could have a caption that says that darker blue = more Mandarin. (The legend is unreadable at the size it has in the infobox).
• Alt text would be nice, especially for the road sign image.
• Some audio samples would be awesome I think, but certainly not required for GA.

Added the alt text and infobox caption, and made the tone images into a gallery. Removed periods from captions. Unfortuntately, haven't found a suitable open-source Guoyu audio sample, but I agree. (My accent is pretty good, but I'm non-native, so definitely not ideal, otherwise I'd do it.) Might try to recruit a friend in the future... WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 23:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments by a455bcd9

Super interesting article: congrats! A few remarks:

• "All forms of written Chinese in Taiwan often use traditional characters alongside other Sinophone areas such as Hong Kong, Macau, and many overseas Chinese communities."
  • No source in the article for "many overseas Chinese communities"
    • WtY: Rewritten to written Chinese in Taiwan generally uses traditional characters, in contrast to mainland China, where simplified Chinese characters were adopted beginning in the 1950s.
  • Inconsistent with the content of the article ("In practice, Taiwanese Mandarin users may write informal, shorthand characters (俗字 súzì, lit. 'customary/conventional characters; also 俗體字 sútǐzì) in place of the full traditional forms.")
  • I suggest: "Formal written Chinese in Taiwan use" or "Written Chinese in Taiwan mainly use"
• "Shorthand characters": are they used in handwriting only? or also on desktop & mobile?
  • • WtY: Handwriting only.
• "Guoyu is still the main language of public education": as of when?
  • WtY: As of today. I slightly worry adding "as of" may inadvertently imply that there are calls to make education non-Mandarin medium, which is not the case. Reworded to English and "mother tongue education" (母語教育 mǔyǔ jiàoyù) — Minnanyu and Hakka — were introduced as elective subjects in primary school in 2001. From context and the following sentences, that Guoyu is still the medium of instruction should be clear, I think.
• "mother tongue education": what does this mean? Hakka and Hokken classes? Do they learn how to write these languages?
  • WtY: Yes, Hakka + Minnanyu/Hokkien. Writing is taught, as far as I am aware; the "tongue" does not imply speech only, given that the Mandarin is just 母語.
• "national and local levels of government have promoted the use of non-Mandarin Chinese languages": I don't understand, the previous paragraphs seem to say the opposite.
  • WtY: Reworded slightly to Overall, while both national and local levels of government have taken some measures to promote the use of non-Mandarin Chinese languages, younger generations generally prefer using Mandarin. The promotion includes e.g. the mother tongue classes. Promotion here is relative to the past, where it was outright prohibited.
• "The Cross Strait Common Usage Dictionary categorizes [...]": not sourced
  • WtY: Fixed
• "Wu (2006) argues is influenced by a similar la particle in Hokkien.": ???
  • WtY: Fixed
• "For recurring or specific events, however, [...]": not sourced
  • WtY: Fixed — removed the line, as it was confusing
• Transliteration formats are not consistent, here are a few examples:
  • "阿公 agōng"
  • 爺爺 yéye (paternal grandfather)
  • 民主 minshu 'democracy'
  • 會 (huì)
  • 珍奶 zhēnnǎi
  • 'traffic rules/regulations' (交通規則/交通规则, jiāotōng guīzé)
  • I suggest using Template:Lang-zh (potentially with |labels=no) everywhere.
    • WtY: I fixed the outliers. The article takes two approaches to Chinese text. The first is when introducing the Chinese translation parenthetically, i.e., where the Chinese word itself is not the focus. This is present in the lead especially. Deeper in the article, where the words are discussed as examples, the format is generally Hanzi (in the {{lang|zh-hant|漢字}} or zh-hant-TW as appropriate) + italicized pinyin + gloss, if necessary. The lang-zh template unfortunately forces the use of semicolons between sections, and there's no way to remove those at present. I'm partial to the uninterrupted insertion of Hanzi + pinyin + meaning if needed because it allows for the paragraph to flow easily, especially when there are so many instances of Chinese text. (e.g. blah blah 國語 Guóyǔ 'National Language' blah vs. blah blah 國語; Guóyǔ; 'National Language' blah)

A455bcd9 (talk) 16:51, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Chiming in to say a) thanks and b) I'll take a look at these after I'm done with Kusma's above. So sorry for the delay. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 03:19, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Provisional completion

@Kusma and A455bcd9: Pinging to let you know I've gone through all of the suggestions at present. Thanks so much for your patience and constructive feedback. Feel free to take some time to look through again if needed. There were some significant alterations in the course of re-researching, especially the lead, the From Minnanyu vocabulary section, and the From Japanese vocabulary section. Happy to answer any questions in the meantime, and again, thanks you very much, and apologies for the delay. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 00:45, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks: looks good to me! Congrats on the impressive work accomplished so far :) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

@WhinyTheYounger, lots of good work! I'd like to do another proper read through as it's been a while. With the holidays, my time is a bit unpredictable but I'll try not to let it take too long. —Kusma (talk) 14:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! And I appreciate it. No need to rush through, please take your time, especially after being so patient. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 19:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Second round

Apologies for the long delay, I didn't get enough wikitime over the holidays (stomach bug plus travel, don't ask). Everything looks pretty near in shape, with perhaps some work necessary in the lead section. Other small issues/comments:

•  Done Minnanyu should be defined at first use, and it should be clarified that this is essentially the same as "Hokkien" when that is first used.
•  Done "then-Chief Executive": drop the "then" and perhaps say what he was Chief Executive of.
•  Done Similarly, "then-mayor of Taipei" could just be "mayor of Taipei" imo.
• Romanization: not anything to do for you, just another anecdote: what you describe sounds almost organized compared to the "Diong-Sam Road" for 中山路 that was fairly common in Southern Taiwan twenty years ago...
  • WtY: Yeah, that's based on the Pej-oe-ji for Hokkien! I would guess that for things like roads especially, changing the romanization means changing the actual English name, which would make things very complicated, so they keep whatever it has been known by.
• Phonology "Taiwanese authorities prefer traditional pronunciations recorded in dictionaries from the 1930s and 1940s" are these more like Nanjing pronunciations?
  • WtY: Not quite. From the Under KMT Rule section, Wu Chinese dialects were also influential due to the relative power of KMT refugees from Wu-speaking Zhejiang, Chiang Kai-shek's home province. My understanding is that in Taiwan they looked to the formal written standard, whereas in China, they adopted some of the more colloquial pronunciations already common in the Beijing area as standard. That seems to be why Guoyu formally retains idiosyncratic/almost one-off tonal differences in certain words, like 從容 cōngróng / cóngróng mentioned later in the article. (Another example off the top of my head is 敬而遠之 where yuǎn is "properly" read yuàn, inherited from older (classical?) Chinese where the tonal difference demarked the adjective 'far' from the verbal 'to distance'. That distinction has long been lost for pretty much all speakers.)
•  Done Link "later in this section" does not work for me?
•  Done Would it make sense to add a citation to the image caption for the pitch contours?
•  Done The table with pronunciation differences looks a bit odd now that lese/laji has been added. Perhaps do not center within the columns?
  • Agreed. Deleted one character that is covered in the following paragraph to rebalanced it, Special:Diff/1132450250.
• Some of the differing transliterations are unsourced; having everything cited might help repel / revert additions of further examples without citations.
  • Could you clarify? Do you mean in the Taiwanese Mandarin#Loan words and transliteration section? Seeing that you handled that already, thanks!
•  Done The citation "Hsu 2014" isn't used.
  • WtY: removed

Lead section/infobox comments:

•  Done Would suggest to combine the fourth and fifth paragraph.
• Slightly more information on what type of differences to expect (other than that differences exist) would improve the lead, which should summarize the whole article. Perhaps try to mention more or less everything that is mentioned in the table of contents?
  • Done
•  Done The box below the infobox has "Taiwan Huayu" instead of "Taiwan Guoyu". And why is "Taiwan Huayu" used first in the infobox?
  • Fixed

Think that's all! Should be able to respond quickly to further changes. Great work overall, WhinyTheYounger! —Kusma (talk) 17:28, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

• • Thanks so much, and no worries on the delay — I kept you waiting much longer anyways. I fixed a few right now and am looking into the others. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 18:53, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

    @WhinyTheYounger, I think it's almost just the lead now, so it should be possible to get this over the line soon. One thing that I wanted to ask you (but obviously doesn't need to go in the article for GA) is whether things like writing 動算 for 當選 (following the Minnanyu pronunciation) happen commonly. (I've seen this in news reports of the 2000 election, when you'd have a dude with megaphone shout 阿扁 etc. and the crowd answer 動算, and there are various Google hits for the phrase). —Kusma (talk) 13:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

    • Finished up some more and working on the remainder. Also found a friend and an acquaintance to do readings; one is a professional newscaster. and . Will probably try to incorporate these after GA status :) WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 01:57, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

      @WhinyTheYounger, those are great and nicely illustrate the difference between Standard Guoyu and more colloquial Taiwan Guoyu (without showing a 台語 accent)! Compare also File:Universal Declaration of Human Rights - chn - cz - Art 1.ogg. I think we're down to two remaining issues, hope you can squash those soon. :) —Kusma (talk) 10:02, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

      • All done, except for that bit bit about transliteration. Almost there, and thanks again! I'll try adding the audio after it's over the finish line :) WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 01:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, that's all! It took a while but I enjoyed reading and working on this! —Kusma (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oba(a)san

I read:

歐巴桑 ōubāsāng, 'elderly woman', from おばさん obasan

This cites a source that's unavailable to me. And unfortunately I don't know Chinese. But I wonder: is this right? Obasan means "aunt" (or a somehow aunt-like person), not "elderly woman"; the word for "grandmother" (or a somehow grandmother-like person) is おばあさん obāsan. -- Hoary (talk) 13:03, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, WhinyTheYounger? -- Hoary (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I rechecked the source and this does appear to be correct. I don't know Japanese, though, so I searched around, and it looks like other sources similarly give おばさん as the etymology, not おばあさん, even though that does make more sense (e.g. this oped). "Auntie" is a frequently used, generic form of address in various Chinese languages for women older than you, which may be how it evolved to mean just "older woman" in general. Both Wiktionary entries give 歐巴桑 as a descendant, though, so something has gotten mixed up along the line. It's entirely possible the authors of these sources similarly mixed up the two words if they didn't know Japanese well. I'll try to look for an etymological dictionary source to see what's up. Thanks for pointing this out! WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:58, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Fangyan

The first paragraph of terms and definitions translates fāngyán (方言) as dialect. This is confusing especially when the opening sentence refers to Chinese as a group of languages. It then mentions that these languages are "extremely divergent" and mutually unintelligible.

I suggest translating fāngyán as topolect or regionalect and avoiding the use of dialect to refer to the group of languages considered to be Chinese. This would ensure that there is then no ambiguity in distinguishing different dialects of Mandarin through the body of the article. Davidreid (talk) 02:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

(Disclaimer: I don't own this article despite having brought this to GA status last week. Others are always free to disagree.) I felt that given just how widespread the use of 方言 is in Chinese (including in some of the sources cited in this article), even if it may be inaccurate, it was worth mentioning. That's also why I follow that sentence with Accordingly, Western linguists tend to treat them as separate languages, likening their relationship to that of English and Dutch, for example (both being West Germanic languages). before continuing to adopt that standard for the rest of the article. I just added a bit of text to that quote to try to further clarify (Western linguists tend to treat them as separate languages rather than dialects of the same language...) WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 22:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Lead wording on indigeneity

Pinging LVTW2 — I believed I had revised the original wording to address your objection, which as I understand it is over the implication that Hakka and Hokkien are indigenous. Mandarin is not the indigenous language of Taiwan. Taiwanese indigenous peoples speak unrelated Austronesian languages., the previous wording, is accurate and avoids implying Hakka and Hokkien are indigenous. The original alteration that I reverted, made by 118.163.139.3, was related to the timing of Hakka and Hokkien immigration, which is a separate issue (and which I'm realizing I was mistaken in reverting, because my interpretation was based on a typo, my bad). Given that, I don't think it's particularly important to change at this point, though strictly speaking "Mandarin was not prevalently spoken" and "Mandarin is not indigenous" are two separate claims. I'd recommend it be reworded to Mandarin was not a prevalent spoken language in Taiwan before the mid-20th century.. WhinyTheYounger ※ Talk 19:00, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I endorse the new change of “Mandarin was not a prevalent spoken language” instead of previous wording by saying it’s not an indigenous language, which makes more sense than defining which is native. Of course Mandarin is not “indigenous”, neither is Hokkien and Hakka, but the previous phrase made the sentence sound like Mandarin is the only one not being“indigenous”. I realise you made a change in the ordering of the sentences, but which does not resolve the confusion and people may still be misunderstanding in the definition of “indigenous languages” over the context of the sentences.

About the early immigrants in which time point to start, I think it should add more references to support the claims, either stating from 16th century or 17 century, should be given by the reliable sources. I would help to improve that by finding more supportive sources, otherwise I would prefer to omit the part about when the early Chinese settlers came, or just delete it from the article. LVTW2 (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Renamed the article to reflect the fact that it was spoken in mainland China during the republican era

- 四条河原町 (talk) 20:59, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Reverted. You clearly have not read the article, which is not about republican era mainland China. —Kusma (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

If the article itself refers to Zhonghua Minguo Guoyu in the first paragraph and in the info box, it is only appropriate to account for the fact that it was used in MLC and how the dialect evolved there. You cannot just overlook the evolution of Guoyu there. 四条河原町 (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Also stop making assumptions about whether one has read the article or not; the article is inadequate for failing to account for Guoyu's history in the mainland. 四条河原町 (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Indeed the article is not about historical Guoyu on the mainland, but about modern Guoyu in Taiwan and things like how it is influenced by 台語 and Japanese. There are other things that are called "中華民國國語", but they are not covered by this article, so "Guoyu (Republic of China)" would be a misleading title. It could be a title for a separate article about Guoyu in republican-era mainland China. —Kusma (talk) 21:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the elaboration. 四条河原町 (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2024 (UTC)