Talk:Tammuz (Hebrew month)

17

What is the Fast of 17th Tamuz? It should be added to this article.

The month of Tammuz in Arabic sources

I'm unsure why this paragraph has been added here. Tammuz is simply the Levantine Arabic word for July (Arabic names of calendar months). The entire paragraph is about the deity, it should probably be moved there, this article is about a month on the Hebrew calendar, not the Gregorian calendar, the fact that they share the same name/are cognates is about all that should be noted here. - Epson291 (talk) 22:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's been a few days, I'm going to move it to the diety page (Tammuz (deity)). - Epson291 (talk) 00:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi Epson291. I missed your first note on this topic. I disagree with your assessment. The article title is Tammuz (month), and not Tammuz (Hebrew month). In fact before you started editing it, it had the cognates in Assyrian, Arabic (and its not just Levantine, it's a classical Arabic term too used throughout the arab world) and Turkish. The information I added discussed the god as well as the month and ritual practices in that month that people continued to engage in in Iraq until at least the 12th century. Please restore what you removed. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 09:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I've restored and expanded the material from Arabic sources. I have also added a section on the Babylonian month which needs to be expanded further. While there will be some overlap between this article and Tammuz (deity), the info here will focus more on the calendar month itself, whereas the info there focuses more on the deity and his later associations with Adonis, etc. If you want a page in which to discuss the Hebrew month in isolation, you can create Tammuz (Hebrew month), provide a summary subsection here and link to that as the main article. But Tammuz (month) should include all reference to the month of Tammuz in all sources and not just Hebrew ones. Tiamut^talk

I strongly disagree with the need for the article, Wikpeida is not a dictionary for cognates/translations of the names of months from other languages, but I did as you asked and seperated the article. I titled it Tammuz (Babylonian calendar). Under no circumstances should it be at Tammuz (month), considering that the word "Tammuz" in relation to months is without a doubt most often referring to the Hebrew month, so I redirected it to Tammuz. "Tammuz", the month on the Hebrew calendar, and July on the Gregorian calendar, which has the Levantine Arabic name of Tammūz, have nothing in common and are simply cognates, it makes no sense to try to connect them and put them on the same page. - Epson291 (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Tammuz does no refer to the Hebrew month "most often". "Most often" it refers to the deity. When it is used to refer to a month, it can refer to the month of July in the Gregorian calendar (as in Arabic, Assyrian, Hebrew and Turkish) or to the month in the Hebrew calendar or to the month in the original Babylonian calendar.

My personal belief is that all the references to the month should be covered in one article. I only suggested a split since you seem to be averse to equal prominence to the non-Hebrew month references. I think your split has introduced an artifical distinction between these topics. It is clear that the Hebrew month derives from the Babylonian calendar, as do all the others. It would be preferable to have Tammuz (month) with a subsection on Tammuz (Hebrew month) which leads to an article on that subject if you so desire. However, I'm not really interested in replaying the debates we have had at Q-D-S and elsewhere where your insistence that the Hebrew is somehow more important than the rest of the Semitic language/cultures comes shining through. Tiamut^talk 20:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I wrote that the usage of the word Tammuz "in relation to months" above, nothing to do with the deity (since I was talking about Tammuz (month)). Considering this is the English Wikipedia I'm sure when people in Enlgish are referring to the seventh month of the Gregorian calendar they say July (and not any different language word). Wikipedia generally does not have articles on translations of words. My instistance is due to the Arabic Tammuz simply being the Arabic word for July, which I point out already has an article, at July (the Gregorian calendar), as does Rajab in the Islamic calendar, etc... Every month in every calendar has its own article. You accuse me of wanting to put Hebrew first but the situation isn't even equitable, the Hebrew calendar is it's own system. It seams to me based on your many edits in the I-P conflict you want to take anything thats Jewish on here and Arabize it, your edits on a daily basis (including today) appear to be about the fear/dislike/discrediting (per request) of all things Jew and Jewish. - Epson291 (talk) 22:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Note: The conversation is now at Talk:Tammuz (Babylonian calendar) - Epson291 (talk) 22:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a very serious accusation. One far more serious than the one I made above wherein I accuse you (based on your editing history atQ-D-S and K-B-D and here) of viewing Hebrew as more important than other Semitic languages. Note my speculation/accusation is phrased positively and not negatively (i.e. Not "you don't like and fear other Semitic languages", but "you give extra weight/prominence to Hebrew"). Please retract. If you won't, I don't see the point in continuing to discuss with you given this very serious personal attack. Neither should you want to continue discussing with me if you truly believe I "fear/dislike/discredit" Jews. Tiamut^talk 13:00, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I do beleive you have NPOV motivations in this. How could you not, everything you edit here has something to do with Palestine/Arab Nationalism. It is my belief you are bringing this here, and are offended at me saying that a unique month on a unique claendar is somehow more important than simply the translated word of a month that already has an article, even though I'm only asking for equal footing (i.e., that neither is at Tammuz (month)), it's not good for you. Why? Because one is a Hebrew word and the either Arabic. Do you think Tammuz (Arabic month) should be a unique article, all it is is July. There is no such thing as a positive acquisition, it's still offending. If you do not want to carry on a conversation do not respond, I will retract it and put it 'positively' though. I beleive your interest in Arab Nationalism makes you give extra weight/prominence to Hebrew Arabic, at the expense of Hebrew. Epson291 (talk) 14:47, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)It is one thing to observe that my editing tends to focus on I-P related articles, and quite another to accuse me of "fear/dislike/discrediting of all things Jew and Jewish." I am asking you again to retract this very serious personal attack which deeply offends me actually. I am an ardent anti-racist and do not take lightly to being called a bigot. Please retract or I will have to report you for making a personal attack and refusing to withdraw it when asked politely to do so. Tiamut^talk 14:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I see you have modified your statement, adding the last paragraph above as an afterthought. I am glad you have, since it saves me the trouble of having to report you. I ask further though that you strike out the accusation above (you know how to use the function so please use it). As for the discussion relating to this article, I'm in no mood to continue collaborating with you at present. Perhaps after some time has passed, we can try to rebuild a relationship of editing trust. Tiamut^talk 14:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

As you wish. - Epson291 (talk) 02:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Epson thanks, but the allegation now reads that I edit daily about all things Jewish. Do you think that's accurate? You made this assumption citing on my edits at an article which is about a government policy in Israel: Judaization of the Galilee. You do know I'm an Israeli citizen, don't you? Is it so strange for someone who is a citizen of a country to write about a government policy therein that directly affects them? Strange enough for you to assume that their interest in that article and others is due to "Jew-hatred"? Could you please strike out the whole sentence? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 09:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Tammuz, is a pagan deity. The Bible talks about the Israelites falling into worship of Idols, and Tammuz was one of these Idols. God called Tammuz "an abomination". Tammuz was part of a pagan trinity. Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz.Ezekiel 8:13-14 King James Version (KJV)"He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz." Although I don't not disagree with the fact that this is a Hebrew month, most of the months we have on the Gregorian calendar were renamed after pagan gods. Man's calendar and God's calendar are two totally different things. The Old testament, or the Torah is clear that God starts His days in the evening. [Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31]. It is also clear that God starts His month's at the new moon. [All throughout the old testament] --HolyandClean (talk) 17:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)HolyandClean

long lines and burning nerves over a lame debate. Tammuz is neither an Arabic nor a Hebrew month. I think this Tammuz "god" existed long before the Muslims and the Jews developed any calenders ( see Araḫ Dumuzu 'Month of Tammuz') in this article Babylonian calendar. If the old Jewish nations did incorporate this month in their calender it does not make it absolutely a "Hebrew month". This month is known all over the middle east - except in Israel - as a "Syriac month". Syriac language/culture it is not considered in this part of the world a pro-Islamic/Arab nationalism language, it simply remains the liturgical language of Syriac Christianity. --علي سمسم (talk) 04:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

References

Which events belong on the list - and which don't

There is a to-the-point discussion here (Cheshvan talkpage). Please take a look before adding items. You are most welcome to contribute. Thank you, Arminden (talk) 12:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)