Talk:Taoiseach

Plural

In my view it would be good if the opening text explained that the plural of "Taoiseach" is "Taoisigh". I'm not sure how to add this in an "elegant" fashion, though, particularly as it would also need a transcription, etc. of its pronunciation! Andrew Gwilliam (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC).

Does it really? Isn't a reference enough? The reason I moved into a footnote is because it meant a total of 5 IPAs in one short intro sentence which was way too many. Snappy (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't actually spotted the footnote with the plural! I tend to associate footnotes with the citation of sources, and am not convinced by this approach. However, I don't have a better alternative to offer, so I'll leave it at that.

That aside, the wording of footnote no. 4 leaves something to be desired, since it implies that "An Taoiseach" is another plural form. Rather than reword it myself, though, it leads me onto something that struck me on reading another Ireland-related article yesterday. I don't speak Irish, but it seems to me that "institutional" terms in Irish make more frequent use of an initial definite article than would be the case in English. There's nothing about this on the relative Wikipedia policy page for Ireland (unfortunately, I can't remember the URL I looked at off-hand). Should all/most "institutional" articles with an Irish name noted in the lede have (or have as a footnoted [?] alternative) the form given with "An", or should none? Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree here?

Andrew Gwilliam (talk) 00:12, 21 June 2011 (UTC).

I amended the footnote for clarity. "I don't speak Irish, but it seems to me that "institutional" terms in Irish make more frequent use of an initial definite article than would be the case in English." - um, no, I wouldn't think so. Irish isn't like French, where every noun should have an article; it's more like English in that respect, so I wouldn't expect an increased frequency of use. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

"Irish isn't like French": that isn't really what I meant. I was thinking about usage on signs and on websites, such as "An Roinn Airgeadais / Department of Finance", "An Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe / Department of Public Expenditure and Reform", and so on. It's only a little thing, but it seems to exist... albeit perhaps only in the dizzy realms of officialdom! Andrew Gwilliam (talk) 19:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC).

Refusal of dissolution

Has this power ever been used? Did Mary Robinson really "not use it" thereby actually using it as asserted by RA? I thought Robinson said that in an interview years later that she would have refused one if asked, but was this view known at the time? A reference from the Examiner doesn't clarify this issue. Snappy (talk) 17:54, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

No, a President has never actually used it to date - some more context on the Robinson case here. Culloty82 (talk) 21:27, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

References

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Sede vacante

Is it true to say that the Office doesn't end until a new Taoiseach is appointed? Alternatively, might an analogous situation of sede vacante be said to exist upon the resignation of a Taoiseach? Is there a Taoiseach between the resignation of one and the appointment of another? If so, what is the Constitutional basis for it? Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

It's covered under Article 28.11°1 of the Irish Constitution "If the Taoiseach at any time resigns from office ...the Taoiseach and the other members of the Government shall continue to carry on their duties until their successors shall have been appointed" Culloty82 (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Also, should a Taoiseach die, the Tánaiste would immediately replace him/her (Article 28.6°2).Culloty82 (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

References

An Taoiseach

"The Taoiseach ... is the head of government (prime minister) of Ireland. An Taoiseach is appointed by the President upon the nomination of Dáil Éireann.."

Bearing in mind that the English Wikipedia is read worldwide, it might be helpful to include in the first line—perhaps just before the pronunciation guide—a mention that 'An Taoiseach' is the Irish translation of the first two words. Harfarhs (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Alternatively, the vast majority of uses of "An Taoiseach" (capitalised A, for some reason) in the article should be replaced with "the Taoiseach." Though yes, we should mention "An Taoiseach" once, in the lead. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:10, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

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Flag or coat of arms

@Spleodrach: you reverted my change of the flag to a coat of arms, with the comment Coat of Arms is of the President NOT the Taoiseach. So although the Taoiseach may not use the full coat of arms, he certainly does seem to use the harp symbol. See the image on the lecterns at [1], and the main symbol used for the Department of the Taoiseach at [2]. It seems like creating a version of the harp for use on this page and others would be a good move, similar to the image at Chancellor of Germany, where it shows the "Emblem of the German government", also the main image at the centre of their coat of arms. I was personally somewhat surprised to see the flag on this page, and I didn't think it really fit with normal conventions on these kinds of pages. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:21, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

I reverted your change because the CoA of Ireland is used on all Acts of Oireachtas; the seal of the President; the cover of Irish passports; various government departments and the obverse of Irish euro coins, but is not used by the Taoiseach. I agree with you that the Taoiseach does not use the full coat of arms, but the harp symbol. I have no objection if you wish to create a harp symbol for this usage. Spleodrach (talk) 19:35, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

@Spleodrach: Still up for me to do this? I thought the CoA of Ireland was used for the Taioseach, I guess I was mistaken. I can probably extract the harp from the CoA image file, and add it as a seperate image. BlockBuster2K43 (talk) 20:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Just call it Prime Minister in the Title

Make the article accessible to an international audience. Non-Irish people (aside from politicos) cannot be expected to know what it means. International media refers to Varadkar as the PM. With Brexit going on, more people are looking at Ireland and obscure Irish loan words makes it hard to access information. 84.197.8.204 (talk) 10:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. No half-measures. 213.233.132.190 (talk) 10:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Taoiseach is the world almost exclusively used in Hiberno-English for the aforementioned office. It is also the official name of the office used in all English language material. It is a proper noun and as such should remain as Taoiseach.Paolorausch (talk) 15:56, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

It is a little strange that the standard English term is used for the head of state (President) but the Irish is used for the head of government (Taoiseach). Why the double standard? 70.27.91.71 (talk) 06:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Interesting point, but no "double standard" exists. In Hiberno-English, the Taoiseach is referred to as such, and the President is referred to as such. That's the way usage has evolved and we follow WP:COMMONNAME. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:06, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Strongly oppose this as the Common Name in the country of origin is Taoiseach and a simple search would provide about a million examples of that in the Irish Times. Given the ease in which Wikipedia can redirect Irish Prime Minister to Taoiseach it is vastly more important to EDUCATE people (that's what we are doing here right?) rather than dumbing down the title just because USAmericans have a hard time pronouncing a name. Hesperian Nguyen (talk)

Following your logic I presume you are making similar suggestion on the Chancellor of Germany page? Smirkybec (talk) 14:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure you are following my logic... Ireland and its media are in English, and the term is not considered debatable as it refers to the history of Ireland, its culture, and language after gaining independence from the UK. Taoiseach is thus keeping in step with common use in an English speaking place (Irish is only spoken regularly by 5% of the population). What your silly comparison is like is... if we changed the name of Miguel Calderón to Michael Calderón. Hesperian Nguyen (talk)

I was replying to the opening argument, not directly to your comment - sorry for the confusion! I wholeheartedly agree with you. Smirkybec (talk) 14:40, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

That is my fault I apologise, I should have noticed that. But you did give the opportunity to expand my argument in a meaningful way! Hesperian Nguyen (talk) 14:53, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• I agree the title should be Prime Minister of Ireland. For all other countries in the world, that is the title we use. Nobody outside of Ireland knows that the PM of Ireland is called Taoiseach, and COMMON means we should go and use PM of Ireland. Just like every non-English speaking country has the PM of XXXX called XXX or something similar. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 00:16, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

If you're going to carry on PainMan's campaign, you might want to try reading his talk page first. I'll copy the relevant part for you, figures correct at the time I originally wrote this.

I took the top 10 USA newspapers from List of newspapers in the United States#Top 10 newspapers by circulation, the results are:

• USA Today 106 results
• Wall Street Journal 66 results
• New York Times 98 results
• New York Post 18 results
• Los Angeles Times 50 results
• Washington Post 150 results
• Star Tribune 23 results
• Newsday 9 results
• Chicago Tribune 44 results
• Boston Globe 41 results

For transparency you get the occasional use of Taoiseach in a quotation, but the majority of the time it isn't a quote at all.

It's at this location because Taoiseach is the official, and common, name of the office in English. FDW777 (talk) 06:41, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Doing a Google News search for Taoiseach, returns most US and non-Irish sources show "Prime Minister" not Taoiseach. [3] feel free to add the "site:cnn.com" or others. Most English speaking people, especially those outside of Ireland and the UK, don't know that Taoiseach means prime minister. We don't have any other country where their foreign language head of state's title is the name of the title in Wikipedia. Further, you show 41 results for Boston Globe, I did a search for "Irish Prime Minister" and got 127, same with Chicago Tribune, I got 310 results for "Irish Prime Minister." Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:09, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

You said Nobody outside of Ireland knows that the PM of Ireland is called Taoiseach. This is not correct. For this reason I will not accept anything else you say that is not supported by evidence, in this case almost the totality of your last post. The location of articles relating to other countries is 100% irrelevant, since the location of Taoiseach is wholly dependent on the use of that term in the English language. The frequency of use of terms relating to other countries is not in any way directly related to the frequency of Taoiseach. The Consitution of Ireland is in English (there is also a Gaelic version) and uses Taoiseach, since that's what the office is called in the English language. FDW777 (talk) 15:54, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

FDW777, You provided a list of RS, showing 9-106 results using Taoiseach in the USA. Now do them showing Prime Minister. I already showed you the Boston Globe and the Chicago Tribune for "Irish Prime Minister" and got a lot more. It is clear that in the entire English speaking world, the COMMON usage is not clear that it is Taoiseach. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:00, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

What did you provide? A Google search for Taoiseach. That was it. You didn't "show" me anything. FDW777 (talk) 16:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

FDW777, I just did what you did. A google search using the term and US newspapers.

Boston Globe - Uses Prime Minister more than Taoiseach.

Chicago Tibune - Uses Prime Minister more than Taoiseach.

Those were the only two I checked. I imagine it's the same thing for all the other US sources. I also have a dictionary plug-in on my browser and every time I type in Taoiseach, it tells me it's not a valid word in the English language, so just because it's used in Ireland, doesn't mean it's COMMON in all the English speaking world. Keep in mind that most of the English speaking world doesn't live in the UK or Ireland. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:39, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

If you cannot, or will not, tell the difference between my post and your post I will not indulge you any further. Start a requested move or stop wasting time, I don't care which. FDW777 (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

FDW777, I'm sorry I can't help you, you do realize that this is an English encyclopedia not Irish, and 2 billion people speak the language, right? I already pointed out to you how RS outside of the UK and Ireland do not refer to the PM as the Taoiseach. A local MOS consensus is just that and can't overrule COMMON. I have no agenda in this, other than making sure people who speak English get to the right article without needing redirects and needing as few parentheses as possible. Do you? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:44, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Appointment

Article 13.1.1 of the Constitution says that "The President shall, on the nomination of Dáil Éireann, appoint the Taoiseach." The article says that "the Taoiseach is nominated by a simple majority of Dáil Éireann from among its members". In 2017, Leo Varadkar was elected by 57 votes + 2 tellers = 59 in favour to 50 votes + 2 tellers = 52 against with 45 abstaining - a total of 156 members who could have voted - see Dail Debates for 14 June 2017.

As it stands, the article could be read to imply that a candidate needs an absolute majority of all members of the Dáil - currently 80/159. (That is the position in the US Electoral College, where a candidate needs an absolute majority of all electors - currently 270/538. It is also the position where a US Presidential or Vice-Presidential election is thrown into the House or Senate, where a candidate needs an absolute majority of state delegations (currently 26/50), or senators (currently 51/100)). I suggest that the sentence quoted should be amended to read "the Taoiseach is nominated by a simple majority of voting members of Dáil Éireann from among its members". Thoughts? Alekksandr (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Strangely enough, the next paragraph (13.1.2) appears to cover this, just mentioning "nomination of the Taoiseach with the previous approval of Dáil Éireann", so simple approval through abstention, rather than an absolute majority, meets the legal wording here. Culloty82 (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Sentence removed from the lede

I have removed the following, as it is improperly referenced:

• Outside of Ireland and the UK, the Taoiseach is sometimes referred to as the Prime Minister of Ireland.

The Guardian is a UK newspaper so cannot be used to reference that sentence, even if it did use the phrase Prime Minister of Ireland which it doesn't. I don't even think it's necessary to include any variant of that sentence with a different reference either, since it's hardly headline news that a media outlet sometimes uses "prime minister" instead of "Taoiseach". FDW777 (talk) 11:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

References

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Prime Minister of Ireland (disambiguation)

Prime Minister of Ireland redirects here. However the above disambig exists to point at other offices including historical ones. WP:DABLINKUG suggests for a primary-topic redirect (target article name differs from the disambig term) link the disambig either in a hatnote or perhaps See also if the target title clearly distinguishes it. Here I'm not quite sure. Taoiseach is obviously different, but this is en and we should expect most readers to not speak Irish and not be familiar with the term. Readers will catch on that this is the current guy. But if they went to that term curious about history, or what the deal with N. Ireland is, they have to either dig into the prose or backtrack in their searching.

So just floating this to solicit input. If no one chimes in in a week or so I think I'll be conservative and just link the disambig in See also. 47.155.41.201 (talk) 23:47, 17 July 2023 (UTC)