Talk:Thandiwe Newton/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Her full name is Thandiwe (with a "w"). Thandie is a contraction. 24.44.34.146 05:20, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is it perhaps beside the point of description to mention "light skin" and "dark skin" in regards to her role in Crash? I don't recall that being important, either in dialogue or thematically. --Bottre73 22:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the skin thing it's irrelevant I'm going to edit it out.BumblebeeUK 20:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Wrong Info

In the Info box at the top, it lists her place of birth as London, which is wrong, and contrary to what it says in the article. May I change it? --nocturnal omnivorous canine 17:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Her Mother is a Shona Princess

To the best of my knowledge they are only two tribes in Zimbabwe, The Shona people and Ndebele people. The two tribes have no King what so ever but rather a village chief and he/she doesn`t hold any honorable titles hence there is no way her mother is a princess of the shona people. The Shona people are the majority population of Zimbabwe so everyone even non citizens should know that there are no Kings or Queens in the country. Until then i am going to remove it. It`s possible that her mother is a daughter of a chief which i won`t argue because they are over 500,000 chiefs in Zimbabwe. Any Zimbawean will clarify my claim. note* Don`t change anything unless you know much about Zimbabwean culture or Law

It is cited. Provide a citation to the contrary (in the article, not here), or leave it alone. Ward3001 (talk) 00:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

You don`t need a citation for such a claim if you have common sense or knowledge of Zimbabwe. They are not Kings Or Queens so how can they be a princess? LarryTheGreat (talk) 20:18, 8 May 2010 (GTM)

Bisexual?

The article says:'In an interview with The Advocate, Newton revealed she had a lesbian relationship at 16 and was in love with the girl. She discussed her sexual orientation saying "We're all potentially bisexual; it all depends on your circle, your upbringing and all kinds of things. Or maybe I'm just talking about myself. I could've easily fallen in love with a woman over a man".'

Does anyone think her comments to the Advocate would put her under "bisexual people" category? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.234.245 (talk) 22:45, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

No. Lots of people who have homosexual experiences in their late childhood or teens do not identify themselves as bisexual. If you can find a source that says she currently views herself as bisexual, then you can add the category. But not based on a comment she made about herself from 20 years ago. Ward3001 (talk) 23:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

'Lots of people..."? Only homos have homosexual experiences. Who cares how they identify themselves. I can identify myself as a Martian, but that don't make it so. Bi is bi, and a rose by anyother name... 24.243.2.132 (talk) 06:30, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to the part where she claims she had a lesbian relationship - I think "I could have fallen in love with a woman over a man" is indicative of bisexuality. And saying that she thinks everyone is bisexual, followed by "or maybe i'm just talking about myself", would imply that she views herself as bisexual based on her upbringing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.234.245 (talk) 22:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• "I could have fallen in love with a woman over a man" (bold added): She's still talking about when she was 16, not now. And notice the words "could have". She did not say "I did".
• "We're all potentially bisexual" does not mean that everyone is bisexual. There's a big difference. Even if it did mean that, that's her opinion about everyone and does not justify the category.
• "or maybe i'm just talking about myself" (bold added): Notice that little word "maybe". She did not say "I am bisexual".

Find a reliable source about her current sexual orientation or drop it. The standards for biographies of living people are much higher than other articles. You need unequivocal, unambiguous evidence or it does not go in the article. Ward3001 (talk) 22:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

You're rather testy...but fine. I suppose it is ambiguous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.234.245 (talk) 20:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You seem to confuse "testiness" with straight answers based on clear policy that you may not want to hear. Ward3001 (talk) 21:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The butterflies on the porch.

When she {Beloved} came out the house as the ladies were at the gate sing hymes the blanked fell and she {Beloved} left, where did the butterflies come from. The movie was over whelming. I love the families need for love and togetherness. Everyone had an award winning performance. I love this movie. Thank you for keeping hope alive!∞∞∞∞ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norris Epps (talk • contribs) 17:30, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Origin of daughter's name open to dispute

I don't believe Thandie's daughter Ripley is actually named after the Alien movies character. I used to work for a major UK celebrity magazine and remember her saying, in an interview, that she'd used a close friend's surname as her daughter's name, and that her friend had returned the favour and called her own daughter Parker, after Thandie's married surname.

Although I don't recall her specifying in the feature that this friend was the actress Fay Ripley, Fay does have a daughter called Parker!

Taffhamster —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taffhamster (talk • contribs) 22:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Now cited correctly in the article. Glamour magazine bio indicated girls were named after Ellen Ripley from Alien and singer Nico.

Robko626 (talk) 15:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Zimbabwean Mother?

Well, she was born in 1972 and there was no Zimbabwe yet. Did her mother become a citizen of Zimbabwe in 1980 or was she just born in Southern Rhodesia? Azalea pomp (talk) 06:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe most non-European people born in what is today Zimbabwe would bristle at being called, "Rhodesian," as that country was named after Cecil Rhodes. In the absence of any other information, I think referring to her as "Zimbabwean" is probably OK. Christopher Columbus is commonly called, "Italian," but he was from the city-state of Genoa, making him Genoese or Ligurian.

Robko626 (talk) 16:04, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism clean up

About her children...Personal life states "Her daughters were named after the character Ellen Ripley in the Alien films and the singer Nico and her son named after the cash–and–carry operator Booker Group. The referenced footnote makes no mention of her son. Obviously, it's an "hilarious" attempt at vandalism. Ah, so irreverent. Removing.

Robko626 (talk) 16:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

place of birth

i am just wondering why she is argued to be born in london. all the wikipedia sections in other languages say that she is born in zambia or zimbabwe. is there any valid source for her place of birth? --Bdrain 00:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• daily telegraph
• new york times biography
• yahoo biography.

Muntuwandi 12:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

In an interview on the BBC program "A Taste of My Life": Series 4 with Nigel Slater she relates how she was born in London during her family's two week trip visiting family in London.

So, yes, according to the lady herself, she was born in London. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.234.177 (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

and to second that.... This program is available on the BBC here for anyone on the UK, though only for another 6 days. To Bdrain, wondering why people think she was born in London when all the sources say otherwise, you should note that this wikipedia article has stated that she was born in Zambia since this revision in Jan 2005. This article pre-dates both the newspaper references given above, and it is entirely possible that the journalists in question used Wikipedia as a reference for this data. The yahoo reference doesn't appear to be dated, but says Newton was raised in Zambia till age 5, and that the family moved to Cornwall "due to political unrest". However in the BBC interview the Lady herself says she was born in London, and moved near Newlyn (which is in Cornwall next to Penzance) when she was three, so her father could help with his family's antique business. Rmallins (talk) 00:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

For those that are interested here's the televised BBC interview in which TH states that she was born in London.

• Newton, Thandie. Interview with Nigel Slater. "A Taste of My Life" Episode 3, Series 4. BBC Two, UK. 18:30 4th June 2008.

Rmallins (talk) 15:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion relating to validity of interview citation

• User_talk:Ward3001#Thandie_Newton_2
• User_talk:Rmallins

Rmallins Rmallins (talk) 19:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• User_talk:Rmallins - part 2
• User_talk:Ward3001#Thandie_Newton_2 - part 2

Rmallins (talk) 10:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion

Hello, a third opinion was requested on this. And I am here to provide one.

I don't live in the United Kingdom, but I used a U.K. based proxy server to verify the source, and have a direct quote for future reference. "Nigel Slater (host): You were born in London but you didn't stay here for long did you? You went down to Cornwall? Thandie Newton (answers): Actually I didn't know how my mum and dad managed to do this. But we lived in Zambia, and my mum was pregnant with me. And I was born on a two week trip back to London, and then we went back to Zambia and my brother was born there. And we ended up coming to England finally when I was three years old. So my dad could help out with the family antique business." - BBC Two (4th June 2008), "A Taste of My Life", Series 4, Thandie Newton (Time in video: 2:00-2:25). The question is asked right after the introduction, and after the quoted part they go on talking about food.

So she indeed says she was born in London, during a two week trip of her parents. But she also says she doesn't know how her "mum and dad managed to do this". I think the best approach is to state both what she said herself, and what reputable sources have written. With that method the information we provide is always correct - and we don't have to go in a position judging who is correct. =Species8473= ^(talk) 17:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the mention of her birthplace from the article per WP:BLP: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.". I hope this also prevents further edit warring, while we work on a presentation we can all agree on. =Species8473= ^(talk) 17:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

For the record, this source is not available outside the UK, and will not be available to anyone in a few days. Thank you. Ward3001 (talk) 18:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Species8473 - thank you. Your suggestion is entirely acceptable to me as it gives the reader the chance to make up their own mind. I have corrected a couple of typos in your quote - and changed the American spelling "mom" with the English spelling:"mum" (as Newton is English) - hope you don't mind. Do you have an example of where such a quote has been made in another Wikipedia article, so we can use a similar format for this one? (pending consensus of course) Rmallins (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

@Ward: There have been other cases where an issue is raised over a BBC source only being available to United Kingdom residents. There however is no policy against using such sources. Even though not ideal, you can have someone else verify the source, or use a proxy server. It also is a shame that it will soon be no longer available online, but I posted the words she used above - so they will be on this talk page forever. And can be included in the footnotes of the article.

@Rmallins: I would try to avoid using too many words about it in the article. The material or issue doesn't seem that important - against other things. The best option I think would be to keep it short, but include the entire citation in the reference. That way it will be available for verification in the footnotes, but not overshadow other material inside the article.

I am fine with the corrections you made to the quote. Do however be careful with changing comments from others - not everyone is happy with it. And this edit by Ward3001 for example may not be acceptable and could cause conflict. Rmallins instead may have wanted to place a diff instead of removing it entirely. =Species8473= ^(talk) 18:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Noted, and restored. Ward3001 (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, here is a proposal for the section. If you both agree we have a consensus, but feel free to suggest improvements or create an alternative version.

Newton is the daughter of Nyasha, a Zimbabwean health-care worker, and Nick Newton, an English laboratory technician and artist. Her birthplace is reported to be Zambia in biographies , but she herself has said to be born in London, during a two week trip of her parents. The name "Thandiwe" means "beloved" in Ndebele, Zulu, Xhosa or Swazi and the name "Thandie" is pronounced TAN-dee. Newton played a character named "Beloved" in the film adaptation of the Toni Morrison novel Beloved in 1998. According to Newton, her mother is a Zimbabwean Shona Princess. She was raised in London and at Penzance, Cornwall, and educated at Downing College, Cambridge.

=Species8473= ^(talk) 19:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Although I appreciate your extraordinary efforts here, =Species8473=, I don't agree that a source that will soon be unavailable is a legitimate source. I would prefer for other editors to express their opinions before the information is added to the article. That having been said, I also don't plan to revert the information if it is added. I may post a WP:RFC if others don't express opinions. Thanks again. Ward3001 (talk) 19:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Species8473 - thanks - I would only change this:

Her birthplace is reported to be Zambia in biographies , but she herself has said to be that she was born in London, during a two week trip ofby her parents.

Clearly I'll be happy for this to become the introduction, but we don't appear to have reached consensus Rmallins (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Just re-examined the interview, and think this change to the quote may be required:

"Actually I didn'tdon't know how my mum and dad managed to do this"

These changes would leave the info looking like this:

Newton is the daughter of Nyasha, a Zimbabwean health-care worker, and Nick Newton, an English laboratory technician and artist. Her birthplace is reported to be Zambia in biographies , but she herself has said that she was born in London, during a two week trip by her parents. The name "Thandiwe" means "beloved" in Ndebele, Zulu, Xhosa or Swazi and the name "Thandie" is pronounced TAN-dee. Newton played a character named "Beloved" in the film adaptation of the Toni Morrison novel Beloved in 1998. According to Newton, her mother is a Zimbabwean Shona Princess. She was raised in London and at Penzance, Cornwall, and educated at Downing College, Cambridge.

Rmallins (talk) 20:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

@Ward3001: The way I see it: Thandie Newton is reliable and notable on her own place of birth. The BBC is a reputable broadcasting network, and the program host/interviewer Nigel Slater an award-winning journalist and broadcaster. For verifiability we can provide a reference to where and when she said it, and even a direct quote of what she said. I don't see any violation of policy, and if you haven't already, you can even easily verify the source yourself for another few days. - And well spotted on the quote Rmallins. I'm also fine with the other small changes you suggested. =Species8473= ^(talk) 21:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we have an honest difference of opinion here. I am just not convinced that a source that cannot be accessed at all by future editors is acceptable. I think eventually there will be another permanent source that emerges, and in the mean time I don't think there needs to be a rush to put a disputed birthplace in the article. But I will respect whatever consensus emerges. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 00:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:V requires only that the source be possible to retrieve, and not necessarily easily or freely. Given that plenty of users are in the UK, that's not an issue. Given that we're talking about an interview of the subject herself, conducted by the BBC, difficulty in obtaining the source is also not an issue (as it might be for some obscure publication of indeterminate significance). So then all I have to ask is, is it possible at all to obtain copies of the interview from the BBC? If anyone is bothered to, it may be worth contacting them to find out. But if the interview is truly inaccesible, officially and for all time (pending), then Ward is precisely correct. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the main page should be changed to the proposal above in order to get the attention of more editors while the video is *easily* available. I believe we have consensus that the reference is valid at the very least until 3:04am Wednesday 23rd July (BST) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00c1842 - "Show Information").

I emailed the BBC last night regarding long term availability and am awaiting a reply:

• http://www.bfi.org.uk/nftva/access/
• http://www.bbcactive.com/
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes

Species8473 - If you agree with this course of action I suspect it would be less contentious if you made the edits rather than myself, as you are the arbitrator - does that sound reasonable?

Rmallins (talk) 10:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Although I respect and thank Species8473 for his work here and (as I have said) I don't plan to edit war if Species8473 decides to make changes, we are not in arbitration. That is an entirely different process on Wikipedia. Because there is no consensus here, the standard procedure if no consensus develops after a reasonable period of time is to post an RfC and possibly go to mediation, and then if necessary go to arbitration. Ward3001 (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think WP:V is being a bit misinterpreted here. It does not require that a source is possible to retrieve - but says material must be "atrributed to a reliable, published source". And that is the case here, it was indeed published by a reliable source. It doesn't say the material must also be available (at a later time). And because we know it will not, or may be hard, we include a direct quote in the reference in advance. I have inspected all relevant policies here, being WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:BLP and WP:NPOV - and it seems the proposed version is in line with all of them. The material is notable, attributed to a reliable and published source, there is no original research, and it is presented in a neutral way. =Species8473= ^(talk) 14:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I continue to respectfully disagree. To me, the more important word in the quote above is "reliable" rather than "attributed". If the source is unavailable to any future editors, I don't think it is reliable. I think that someone must be able to retrieve the source in the future. Otherwise we have the reports of a small handful of editors that the information is accurate. And (at the risk of repeating myself) there is no rush. If she indeed was born in London, inevitably another, more reliable source will emerge. By the way, Someguy1221 made a good suggestion above. Perhaps the BBC can assist in providing wider access to the video or the transcript. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 15:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

There is another interview with her by Kam Williams (award winning journalist), in what she says the same:

Kam Williams: "I’ve read that you were born in England, and also that you were born in Africa. Which is correct?"

Thandie Newton: "I was born in London during a brief trip back from Africa which is where we all lived at the time."

It is available on a number of websites: 123456.
We could use News Blaze as source, together with the reference to the BBC interview. That is two interviews in what she says she was born in London. One available via a direct internet link, and the other that was broadcasted by the BBC with a direct quote. Does this approach settle the dispute? =Species8473= ^(talk) 15:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Many thanks Species8473. I wish more editors were as dedicated to fairness and accuracy as you are. Ward3001 (talk) 16:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, that makes this as proposed version:

Newton is the daughter of Nyasha, a Zimbabwean health-care worker, and Nick Newton, an English laboratory technician and artist. Her birthplace is reported to be Zambia in biographies , but she herself has said that she was born in London, during a two week trip by her parents. The name "Thandiwe" means "beloved" in Ndebele, Zulu, Xhosa or Swazi and the name "Thandie" is pronounced TAN-dee. Newton played a character named "Beloved" in the film adaptation of the Toni Morrison novel Beloved in 1998. According to Newton, her mother is a Zimbabwean Shona Princess. She was raised in London and at Penzance, Cornwall, and educated at Downing College, Cambridge."

Let's wait for approval from Rmallins and possibly Someguy1221 (or others) and we have a strong consensus on the material. =Species8473= ^(talk) 16:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Species8473 - thanks for that - well spotted for the new source. I do of course approve of the changes! Rmallins (talk) 17:45, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I have made the changes to the article. =Species8473= ^(talk) 18:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is a good idea. Because it means we are judging one reputable source over the others. I do personally think she is telling the truth, but there are three reputable sources that specifically say she was: "born in Zambia" (Yahoo Movies), "born in Zambia" (New York Times), "born in Zambia" (Daily Telegraph). =Species8473= ^(talk) 19:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a point that I feel strongly about, and I can accept it either way. (And this is interesting that I'm the one making this argument), but if she herself said she was born in London, my personal opinion is that her statement takes precedence over any other source, unless there is incontrovertible evidence that she is not telling the truth. But it's fine with me if someone wishes to revert my edit. Ward3001 (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I also (obviously) believe that she was born in London and that her word takes precedence over all others, but agree with Species8473 that in this case we should leave it to the reader to make their own minds up, as per the original proposal.

Rmallins (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I also personally give the most weight to her own statement, she seems a great person and is a very good actress. But I don't know where the authors from Yahoo Movies, the New York Times and the Daily Telegraph have their information from, and they are all regarded as reputable sources. I will drop them an e-mail so they can verify and/or correct it. What we added at "Early life" seems to be the most neutral point of view. I also think leaving it out in the infobox will prevent it being changed to Zambia again. We could even replace it with a code message such as: <!-- see talk page and early life section before making changes -->. =Species8473= ^(talk) 20:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Warning in the source is a nice touch. If/when I get a reply from the BBC regarding future availability of recordings I'll add that here too. If they are known to be available (and most notable programmes shall be via the British Film Institute even if not direct from the BBC), it will save much future effort and debate.

Rmallins (talk) 01:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

victimization by early director

@Eurocus47: and others, re this original edit

I made two changes, which should be reviewed and improved upon be other editors, see diff.

Vibe magazine cited W magazine, so I changed the citation to W. Second, the original copy reported the abuse as fact AND said "during." I've attempted to attribute the abuse statement to her and also removed the erroneous piece re "during" the audition as relates to showing of the audition video -though certainly content can be included about abuse re the nature of the audition. Feel free to edit and improve with this context as a starting point.

Cheers, UW Dawgs (talk) 02:35, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

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Etymology

The article as it stands makes no claim about the source of the word, just that The name Thandiwe means "beloved" in Shona, cited to the Vogue article. We may add that it is of Nguni origin if someone can provide a source that says so, but even if it wasn't a native word, it wouldn't make sense to modify the statement (unless the word doesn't exist in Shona even as a loanword). Nardog (talk) 16:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Source added for the name's Nguni origin. Also found in The Guardian: "This article was amended on 5 April 2021 to remove an incorrect phrase saying 'Thandiwe means "beloved" in the Shona language'." Now a caption says "Thandiwe means ‘beloved’ in the Zulu, Ndebele and Xhosa languages."

It still remains the case that it was widely reported that it was a Shona name, including Variety, New York, and the original Vogue article. I wonder if it was a slip-up on the part of the writer or editors for Vogue, or it being a Shona name was directly asserted by Newton or someone working for her. (The BBC and Deadline report a respelling of the name that doesn't appear in the Vogue piece, which suggests Newton's agents sent out a press release.) If the latter, it still means Newton perceives it as a Shona name, which may be noteworthy from a biographical point of view. And just because a word was borrowed doesn't mean it can't be considered a word in the given language, or very few of these words would be English words. Nardog (talk) 21:04, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

OBE Title

Just wondering if there's a reason we don't refer to this person as 'Dame' given she received an OBE? Just comparing to Judi Dench's page. Genuinely curious as to the rules on this Irandill (talk) 10:11, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

OBE and damehood are different honours. Rusted AutoParts 10:15, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Judi Dench has both an OBE (not a dame) and then later received a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire, which is a subsequent and incrementally different award to a regular OBE with a higher precedence. Canterbury Tail talk 14:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)