Talk:The Barn Dance

New release date?

On May 22, the release date the Micky Mouse cartoon "the Barn Dance" was changed from 1929 to 2017.

Why was that done?

LeeLance (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Obvious vandalism. It happens. I fixed it. JOJ ^Hutton 00:35, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Probable Public Domain Poster in a few weeks

The poster for this film seems to have been printed and published sans copyright notice in 1929. When Mickey enters the public domain in a few weeks on January 1, 2024, the poster for this film can likely be updated as well with a high resolution scan. SDudley (talk) 04:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

The Barn Dance is from 1929, so the Public Domain date is in 2025, not 2024, and the copyright was renewed in December 1956 Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Right. We don't disagree. I was talking solely about the poster for the film. The copyright claim for the film does not cover the poster. SDudley (talk) 20:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

We already had an adequate non-free image for this poster. Making it more high-res will only make it more likely to get deleted as non-free. "Mickey Mouse" did not enter public domain — that was only Steamboat Willie and other 1928 cartoons. The version of Mickey Mouse seen in this poster is very much still owned by Disney. Toughpigs (talk) 20:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

This version of Mickey Mouse came out in 1929, So Disney still owns it until January 1, 2025. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I changed the image to a screenshot from the actual film, which is more specific and helpful than the generic poster. I uploaded it as a non-free/fair use image, so the question about whether it's in the public domain don't matter. I hope that this can resolve the current edit war with a positive result for the article. Toughpigs (talk) 17:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Public Domain Status

This film is in the public domain. The stated copyright date is 1928.

The official notice on the title card, says 1928.[1] And according to 17 U.S.C. § 406(b),[2] the earliest printed notice date on a work is considered to be its copyright start date.

This cartoon may hold a similar position to Plane Crazy or The Gallopin' Gaucho, where its animation was completed in 1928 and thus the visuals but not sound are public domain. However, those have notices which read 1929, to reflect the sound release. This cartoon does not.

An editor more qualified and awake than myself should confirm this. Preferably a copyright lawyer. But this cartoon may also belong to the public domain as of yesterday, and thus be uploadable to its article. PilkScientist (talk) 13:26, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The Barn Dance isn't Public Domain yet, because it came out in 1929, not 1928, and the copyright was renewed on December 10, 1956 Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Bedivere: There seems to be a lot of conflict over whether the poster is public domain or not. I would like to take the poster out, unless anyone can show a reliable source that attests to that poster being in the public domain. That is how we resolve differences of opinion on Wikipedia. It is not useful to have people simply say "yes it is because it's 1928"/"no it isn't because it's 1929". Can you (or anyone) show a reliable source discussing this poster specifically? Toughpigs (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The Barn Dance isn't Public Domain until 2025. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Again: where is the reliable source that can attest to that? Toughpigs (talk) 20:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Toughpigs: The film is under copyright until 1 January 2025, that is, 95 years after its first publication (in 1929). The copyright on the film has nothing to do with that of the poster. The Gallopin' Gaucho was published in 1928 and its silent version went into the public domain last 1 January. The promotional poster, also from 1928, is too in the public domain. The poster for The Barn Dance is identical to that of The Gallopin' Gaucho. Since there are no copyrightable elements that make it distinctive enough from that of the Gallopin' Gaucho, it is too in the public domain. This has been already discussed here and on Wikimedia Commons. Removing the poster just because the film is not in the public domain yet is wrong, to say the least.

Another reason to add, is that the original poster for The Barn Dance has no copyright symbol, and as a result it is undoubtedly in the public domain as it did not comply with the requisites prescribed to apply for copyright protection. Additionally it was not registered in the US Copyright Office, since the poster has a distinct copyright to that of the film (it is another work). Bedivere (talk) 20:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I also want to put into question @Hjajajsbbxb12's behavior both here and on Commons. They changed the licensing tag of this poster to "fair use" in order to have it deleted, behavior for which they've been warned there (see talk). It's the unanimous vote at Commons and on this Wikipedia that this poster is in the public domain. Paradoxically, the user has uploaded an entire short from YouTube, evidently copyrighted, put it a Creative Commons license and then changed it to a fair use licensing tag without justifying its use. Bedivere (talk) 20:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I am very sorry, for my behavior, I promise that I'll improve. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Here are the posters in question for comparison:

• 
  The Gallopin' Gaucho
• 
  The Barn Dance

Identical, aren't they? The first one is firmly PD, the second one is too as a result (changing the name of the film is not creative enough and does not generate an additional copyright) --Bedivere (talk) 20:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Only Steamboat Willie and the Gallopin' Gaucho are Public Domain, The Barn Dance remains copyrighted until 2025. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

According to IMDB, The Barn Dance is from 1929, So it won't be Public Domain until January 1, 2025. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0018675/ Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 20:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Hjajajsbbxb12: Please stop posting the same idea over and over on multiple talk pages. You have made your point. Just saying "the Barn Dance is from 1929, it'll be public domain in 2025" multiple times is not an effective way to collaborate on Wikipedia. Toughpigs (talk) 21:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I already stopped that. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 21:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

You did not. As I already told you on your talk page and on other threads, the poster's copyright has nothing to do with that of the film, which has not been contested by me or anybody else (except the first poster above). Bedivere (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I am very sorry for what I did I promise to stop this time. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 00:01, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

To clarify my claim of its public domain status, sir Bedivere, I present the title card, including copyright notification, as you uploaded it. The notification date reads MCMXXVIII, 1928, which is generally what establishes the year of entry to public domain. At least for the visual portion of the work, the soundtrack possibly being completed later.

The best I could tell, from my dives into secondary sources around the time of my initial post, it may have been publicly released in early 1929. The sources in the Reception section, verify this; containing reviews from those publication's February 1929 issues. Aligning as pre-release reviews, before the claimed March 15th 1929 release date

This... clashes, with Disney's copyright filing in 1956. The current article itself, contradicts their 30th November 1929 filing claim with the copyright office. Any future edits, given careful consideration, should work to rectify this difference.

I encourage us to seek more of a consensus on this, before moving forward with any claims. To be frank, the proper arena for this debate would be a court of law, who could establish the facts and accuracy of the copyrights of the work. There's a reason I didn't immediately jump to change things in the articles, and instead brought it up in a talk page. Someone more qualified and passionate than me, might be able to track this down and verify the truth. I do not feel qualified, so I did not risk damage to the efficacy of public-facing material.

also sorry i accidentally started an edit war a little, oopsies. PilkScientist (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The short actually came out in 1929, and the title card had an error that says 1928 (MCMXXVIII), but it was later fixed to say 1929 (MCMXXIX). Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 02:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That isn't in discussion, @PilkScientist. Most sources say this was released in 1929. Of course, the short did not comply with the formalities and included an incorrect copyright date (1928 instead of 1929, such incorrect date is still included in the Walt Disney Treasures DVD from which the title card was extracted and cited by PilkScientist above, it was never corrected as @Hjajajsbbxb12 says), which means this probably was never copyrighted at all. But remember, it's Disney, and everyone is taking extra cautions in order to avoid legal action. For instance, The Gallopin' Gaucho was probably released (the sound version) in December 30, 1928, but the most firm date is from 1929, and so, the version available on Commons is muted. All sources state The Barn Dance was released in 1929 despite the wrong copyright date.

But the whole discussion, as I stated earlier, wasn't about the copyright of the film, but @Hjajajsbbxb12, misunderstanding the fair use policies, has stated the poster is still under copyright because the film is under copyright. For several reasons, as explained before in other comments, the poster is in the public domain: 1) It's exactly the same as that of the Gallopin' Gaucho, in the public domain already, and as no creative elements were added, this one is too in the public domain; 2) no copyright note is included and so it expired long ago (just like most Mickey Mouse posters, which I encourage everyone to find and upload on Commons). Bedivere (talk) 03:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Hjajajsbbxb12 replied to both my discussion of general copyright, and that of the poster. This is the thread on general copyright. Confusion may have sprung from the similarity of the replies being made, it's understandable.

I didn't want to make my first reply longer than it was, but I do agree that regardless of the film's actual copyright status, it may not be a good idea to poke the beast, so to speak. Especially since a 1928 release date would presumably make the 1956 renewal Late, which may have... implications, for Mickey Mouse's copyright going back decades. This is more a problem to be solved by lawyers, than by wikipedians.

However, this still leaves contradictions, in the article at hand. Which, while I grant they may not have a solution within our power, are still gonna bug the crap outta me personally. And deserve to be at least brought up and discussed, here in the talk page. PilkScientist (talk) 05:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

What are the contradictions in the article? Toughpigs (talk) 06:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Contradictions in References, at least.

Reference 3 states a creation date for the film of November 30th 1929, however references 5, 6, and 7 show its existence predating this. And the release date says something else. It technically doesn't leak into the article as-is in a significant or direct way, but... the fingerprints of the impasse in the sources, are visible. Including the 1928 date on the title card.

Someone could stumble along like I did a few months ago, and wonder what's up with that. I don't strictly think we need to iron these out, the article could remain as is. I defer to experience on that. At this point I'm just here to double-check that conclusion. PilkScientist (talk) 06:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Only the DVD version and the early version of the title card had the wrong year (1928/MCMXXVIII) on it. Hjajajsbbxb12 (talk) 13:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Do you have a source with the corrected year on it? Can you take a picture, or send a screenshot? PilkScientist (talk) 04:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

They don't have any. They've also uploaded a doctored image with the "correct year", which has been deleted already. I'm not feeding the troll anymore Bedivere (talk) 14:07, 21 March 2024 (UTC)