Talk:The Cry of Love

Untitled

This album was released on Polydor Records in the UK. Also, Night Bird Flying was released as a single.137.205.191.198 (talk) 13:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know who did the cover art? Boris B (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

My copy of the LP says "Ilustration / Nancy Reiner". -Mickraus (talk) 20:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Someone please tell gersracing that replacing sourced and referenced pieces and replacing them with self serving un-sourced nonsense is just vandalism.Jameselmo (talk) 11:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You have been warned, gersracing, replacing sourced and referenced pieces and replacing them with self serving un-sourced nonsense is just vandalism. you seem to be living in a fantasy world where you are a major recording starJameselmo (talk) 18:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC).

gersracing: "Awarded gold albums with Warner Bros., Polydor, and Track Records. Recorded with Jimi Hendrix on 'Cry of Love' album." Yeah - in your dreams! You have assumed the identity of a made up four letter name that was mistakenly given for Paul Caruso for a three year old (in 1971)track that no-one could remember at the time who actually played on it. I see you have recently been attempting to spread your nonsense via My Space, E-bay & 'Rate your music' in a attempt to be "one of the privileged' - whatever that means. None of the famous people you mention appear to have any association with you, and your 'friends' list is patently made up of people that weren't around when my space started or just nonsense that's dished out to anyone who asks.

Jimi didn't "record the 'Cry of Love'album" (and none of it was recorded in England as you make out in your 'blurb')it was pieced together posthumously by Eddie & Mitch from the recordings they had been working on with Jimi from early 1970 and a couple from late December 69 with the BOGs, for an LP which was tentatively titled by Jimi either 'First Rays of The New Rising Sun' or (later) 'Strate Ahead' The 'Cry of Love' title is posthumous and comes from an interview Jimi gave just prior to the last Jimi Hendrix Experience tour (with Billy Cox on bass)when he christened the tour thus. They couldn't use all the tracks they wanted as some had to be given to Reprise for the (contracted) 'Rainbow Bridge' soundtrack, hence (possibly) the inclusion of the anomalous 1968 track 'My Friend'.Jameselmo (talk) 02:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

3rd warning about your vandalism gersracingJameselmo (talk) 22:53, 5 December 2009 (UTC) 4th warningJameselmo (talk) 22:53, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

4th time - Thats it, man, you're oot the window.

Not a compilation album

Huxley's appears to be alone in his assessment of The Cry of Love as a "compilation" ("The following year saw the release of The Cry of Love, a compilation of songs that were at varying points of completion at the time of Hendrix's death"). For albums, "compilation" generally refers to being drawn from various sources and usually contains songs recorded over a longer period of time, at different points in an artist's career. They often include songs previously released as singles or on other albums, recorded at different studios and sometimes with different backing musicians, producers, engineers, etc. This is not the case with this album.

At the time of its release, CoL was the first time that any of the songs were released. Eight out of ten of the songs were recorded June–August 1970 at one studio (Electric Lady Studios) with one engineer (Eddie Kramer) with the same backing musicians (Mitch Mitchell and Billy Cox, with occasional backup singers and percussion). The two exceptions are: "Ezy Ryder" (begun in December 1969 with Buddy Miles at the Record Plant) and "My Friend" (a jam-type recording with guest musicians from March 1968). Both Axis: Bold as Love and Electric Ladyland were recorded with several guests and EL contains two previously released singles: "Burning of the Midnight Lamp", recorded and released about one year earlier and "All Along the Watchtower", both of which were produced by Chas Chandler (Hendrix produced the rest of EL). However, these are not identified as "compilations".

Huxley appears to be making an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim – unless "multiple high-quality sources" are identified to support compilation album, the infobox should be reverted to |type=studio as it existed for years.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:42, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

"For albums, "compilation" generally refers to being drawn from various sources and usually contains songs recorded over a longer period of time, at different points in an artist's career. They often include songs previously released as singles or on other albums, recorded at different studios and sometimes with different backing musicians, producers, engineers, etc." According to who? Dan56 (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The Oxford dictionaries define "compilation" as

• 1 "the action or process of producing something, especially a list, a book, or report, by assembling information collected from other sources"
• 2 "a thing, especially a book, record, or broadcast program, that is put together by assembling previously separate items"

—Ojorojo (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The recordings on this album were the result of original parts by Hendrix and posthumous mixes/overdubs. Separate items indeed. Dan56 (talk) 19:34, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Not true. Most were mixed by Hendrix and Kramer in August 1970, with no additional overdubs. Even if they had some posthumous mixing, how would this make them "previously separate items" or "from other sources"? All recordings go through some sort of mixing process, otherwise they couldn't be released. —Ojorojo (talk) 21:07, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

According to what is cited in this article, "About half of the album's ten songs were nearly completed with mixes prepared by Hendrix" "About half". And, to cite Unterberger's point, Hendrix was not involved, and there is no telling what his ultimate vision for these songs would have been, what would have happened to them. As they are now, these are cherry-pickings from what would have been a double or triple LP, cherry-pickings we do not know would have made it to the finish line had Hendrix seen to the next album's creation--which means their recording sources are just individual sessions (separate sources), not sessions for a fourth album, because the fourth studio album never existed. And this cannot be considered a studio album, according to Unterberger. Dan56 (talk) 21:20, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

To claim that Unterberger says that Hendrix was uninvolved is simply not true. Six out of ten songs on the album had no further overdubs or mixing after Hendrix and Kramer completed them in August (an additional two, "In from the Storm" and "My Friend", were mixed in November and December; only two, "Angel" and "Drifting", had later overdubs and mixing). Coupled with the fact that Hendrix included eight of the songs on his proposed track listings for a new album, shows that he was very much involved in creating a body of work for a new album.

I agree with Unterberger that CoL cannot be seen on the same level as the three Experience albums. However, the new wording in the article is misleading because it implies that Hendrix had no input and is not supported by Unterberger's statements – the "compromise" is a single vs. double album that Hendrix "envisioned". Hendrix was well-known for proposing ideas for albums, groups, etc., that never came to pass and a proposed double- or triple-album could easily have been untenable given the business realties of the music industry.

So, the fact that CoL is a single album is not a fatal flaw. Unterberger later adds the album did "present some of the best work from that project [including some songs] that most listeners would have judged virtually certain to make the cut for whatever record Jimi had in mind". CoL is not the thoroughly artificial constructs that Crash Landing and Midnight Lightning are.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, for a new album, but not this is not that new album. Dan56 (talk) 20:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

"A compilation album is a general term used to refer to a music release made of up of songs that [were] not intended to be viewed as a single work." (Do we know for sure all these songs were intended by Hendrix to be for a single work?)

With the exception of "My Friend" and "In from the Storm", Hendrix included the rest (8 out of 10) on written proposed track listings.[McDermott pp. 266, 274] —Ojorojo (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

These exact recordings of those titles in his proposed track listings? Dan56 (talk) 19:30, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

? Which CoL tracks were not on his proposed track listings? —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

This is my point, and Unterberger's: he had a proposal, and no one knows what album would have come of it, if the CoL tracks would have even made it by the end. But it doesn't matter either of us think here: I should not be the one to tell you that Wikipedia articles are dependent on independent sources, like music journalists and published writers (not Wikipedia editors, i.e. you). So what do they say? Dan56 (talk) 20:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

"as it existed for years" (or whatever length of time it was there) has no merit with regards to keeping or changing content (WP:CONTENTAGE) Dan56 (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

"Existed for years" is not being used as an argument, but it does show that you seem to be the only one who wants to change it. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Another irrelevant observation. Dan56 (talk) 19:28, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Huxley is not alone; the album's copyright registration, according to Catalog of Copyright Entries (1972), has it filed as a "compilation" ([1]). Jeremy Allen of The Guardian also referred to it as a compilation ("Jimi Hendrix – 10 of the best", 2007). On the other hand, Peter Doggett wrote that it was "accepted for years as an authentic Hendrix album rather than a posthumous compilation" (Jimi Hendrix: The Complete Guide to His Music). Dan56 (talk) 17:22, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The entry in the Catalogue of Copyright is for a sheet music collection, not for the album (note the 1972 registration date; the album was copyrighted in 1971). Is Allen a "high quality source"? He doesn't appear to have written any books on music.[2] Peter Doggett on the other hand has written several books on rock subjects, including Jimi Hendrix: The Complete Guide to His Music. There are many books on Hendrix by well-known authors – unfortunately, they don't seem to classify albums in this manner. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The catalogue was published in 1972; it covers 1971 copyrights, as indicated by the title on the first page. It is not for a "sheet music collection". But a song book, and the registration's categorization is still relevant and applicable to the accompanying album. Dan56 (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2019 (UTC))

[You shouldn't be refactoring your comments, see WP:RTP ] The entry specifically states "compilation with guitar chords" and shows "31 p." (pages?); note the page also includes "Jethro Tull – Songs from Benefit ... 9 piano arrangements" and several others show "score [X] p." —Ojorojo (talk) 20:06, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Earlier in the entry, it states "Cry of Love; compilation". The same is used for other compilations with registrations in that catalog (example). Whether it is the song book or the registration, the album is being identified as a compilation. Dan56 (talk) 20:31, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

These appear to be for sheet music/song books ("compilation, new words & arr. & editorial revision", etc.). Albums should have record companies mentioned, instead of "Press" and "Pub" and page numbers. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:45, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Both Allen and Huxley (and Unterberger) are higher-quality sources than anything you've presented so far in your argument to change "compilation" to "studio" in the infobox parameter. Dan56 (talk) 19:58, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I've added a section discussing this topic, with references to multiple high-quality sources, most either calling it a compilation, and one saying it cannot be considered a studio album. Dan56 (talk) 17:45, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Your addition to the article "The copyright registration for The Cry of Love's accompanying song book had it filed as a compilation album.[4]" is not supported by the source. "Album" is not mentioned and cannot be reasonably drawn from the accompanying text. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:45, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough; I have removed it. Dan56 (talk) 20:56, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The burden is on you to provide multiple high-quality sources to support your change, that this should be filed as a studio album, which appears to be the exceptional claim. Dan56 (talk) 19:32, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN includes "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. This whole business started with you adding "rarities compilations", which is clearly not supported by any of the sources, so I reverted. Now, you are shuffling around various combinations of compilations, anthologies, etc., hoping that one will fit. Why are you in such a hurry? —Ojorojo (talk) 20:54, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

No, it started with your proposal here. I am not doing anything now to the discography template/page. Dan56 (talk) 21:00, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I did demonstrate verifiability, clearly, when I cited sources to verify the text I added to this article. So what does that have to do with anything here? Dan56 (talk) 21:06, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Refs so far

Something else (not compilation)

• Doggett – "The Cry of Love, accepted for years as an authentic Hendrix album rather than a posthumous compilation" (this is in his discussion of First Rays, which is included in "The New Hendrix Catalogue: Studio Albums" section).
  • "Accepted for years"... accepted by whom? and if "for years," this means it stopped being accepted as an authentic Hendrix album; if you read on, he qualifies further (the releases of Voodoo Soup and First Rays affected perception of Cry of Love). Dan56 (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Di Perna – "a half-finished studio album (The Cry of Love) but certainly no masterfully nuanced studio recordings on the order of Axis or Electric Ladyland."

• Shadwick – "[CoL] The first posthumous aggregation of tracks that Hendrix was preparing for The Next Album prior to his death".

• Unterberger – "The Cry of Love can't be considered to be the fourth studio album Hendrix would have released"; yet he doesn't include it in his "Compilations" section.

• Westergard (AllMusic) – "[CoL] was the first of the posthumous releases in the Jimi Hendrix catalog and probably the best as it collected most of the studio tracks that were either completed or very near completion before Hendrix died."

• Mitchell – "As to what Hendrix himself would have wanted to release is obviously a matter of speculation. I know that it would have been along the lines of 'Cry of Love'".

• Cox – "Then we [Hendrix and I] discussed the possibility of doing a single or double LP, but it really didn't make that much of a difference. You must remember even though they [record label and management] gave him a lot of freedom in the studio, when the record deal itself came about, he did not have the last say-so."

• Other well-known Hendrix biographers don't try to tag it, such as McDermott, Roby, Shapiro, Murray, and Moskowitz (nor the uneven Cross, Henderson, and Ogunjobi).

Compilation

• Huxley – "The Cry of Love, a compilation of songs that were at varying points of completion".

• Allen – "The Cry of Love, a compilation of recordings of songs he’d been working on before his death".

• Rivadavia – "Rainbow Bridge, as well as other posthumous Hendrix compilations, such as The Cry of Love and War Heroes".

Huxley has written several books of musician bios, etc., but not on Hendrix. No books are shown for Allen or Rivadavia about Hendrix or otherwise. So the "compilation" designation is only used by three writers who haven't written fully developed works about Hendrix.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

The ones you've grouped as "not compilation" don't say it is not a compilation. You don't have to be a "fully developed" expert on Hendrix to make this judgement, and Di Perna or Westergard are not, yet you conveniently cite them to paint this picture. Funny how you demand the highest credentials from sources when they disagree with your opinion. Dan56 (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

This is going nowhere. You keep on shitting on whatever source challenges your desire for change. I have nothing new to say or respond to, so just open an RfC if you are still insistent on getting your change across, at the expense of what reliable sources have explicitly said. Dan56 (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

More refs

OK, if we're drawing from a broader pool of sources (bolding added):

• Hardy – "This trio made the final authorized Hendrix studio album, Cry of Love"[3]
• Kienzle – "his final formal studio album, The Cry of Love."[4]
• Magill – "His last true studio album, The Cry of Love"[5]
• Hochman – "The Cry of Love ( 1971), his last self-authorized album."[6]
• Lazell – "The Cry Of Love. the last LP sanctioned by Hendrix himself."[7]
• Rees, Crampton – "The Cry Of Love, the last album sanctioned and recorded by Hendrix"[8] Appears to be a later edition of Lazell's book
• Rolling Stone Encyclopedia editors – "Cry of Love, Hendrix's last self- authorized album."[9]

So, there are several who explicitly say "studio album" and others who counter the "Kramer's concoction" idea. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:45, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank youuu Dan56 (talk) 20:13, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

@Dan56 and Ojorojo: Does this mean that agreement on studio as the type has been agreed? I'm trying to clear articles from the template error category and something needs to go in the type field so that this article isn't classed has having errors. - X201 (talk) 11:48, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

No. There are three sources who call it "studio", three who call it "compilation", one who disputes it being called "studio", and others who call it "self-authorized"/"sanctioned". If out of necessity, to avoid errors, use both, in the manner of Purple Rain (album). Dan56 (talk) 12:18, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this is another one that doesn't easily fit into the current classification scheme. Too bad the default isn't "Album" or |type=album just produces "Album", with clarification left to |longtype=. If it is really necessary, I suppose both can be used, like Eat a Peach or Hell Freezes Over (the use of a second color has little meaning to all except experienced WP album editors and may look like a mistake to the average reader). Problem is, which goes first? —Ojorojo (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection to "studio" being first, if that's your preference. Personally, the blue color of the infobox, when it is set to "studio," suits the album cover better than the green of "compilation." Dan56 (talk) 18:27, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. That's another one off the list. - X201 (talk) 20:40, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Pull quote

Dan56: Template:Cquote doesn't explain it very well, so I linked the pull quote article. It includes: "Because the pull quote invites the reader to read about the highlighted material, the pull quote should appear before the text it cites and, generally, fairly close to it.[2][page needed] ... Pull quotes need not be a verbatim copy of the text being quoted; depending on a publication's house style, pull quotes may be abbreviated for space or paraphrased for clarity, with or without indication.[2][page needed]" The example that is uses shows that the pull quote repeats verbatim the text from the bottom of the second column.

Additionally, MOS:BLOCKQUOTE includes: "Do not enclose block quotations in quotation marks (and especially avoid decorative quotation marks in normal use, such as those provided by the {{cquote}} template). Block quotations using a colored background are also discouraged." If the cquote doesn't substantially repeat existing text, it should be formatted as a block quote, which doesn't use quotation marks (plain or decorative).

—Ojorojo (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Ohkay. Dan56 (talk) 02:22, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

What is the point of "album format" section?

There is an entire section to discuss the album format. That section quotes different sources but there is no connections between them. What are we discussing here? Is it the Hendrix 4th album? Is it studio or compilation? Those quotes are talking about different things, and it seems there is no connections between them.Valverde.pr (talk) 17:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the section's title speaks for itself. isento (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I dont think the section't tittle speaks for itself. Its not a relevant topic. It seems someone took a discussion from "talk" section and decided it was a good idea to put it in the main article.Valverde.pr (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)