Talk:The Swap (2016 film)

Starring list in infobox - whom to list?

I'm a little confused here. When I added the actors/actresses to the infobox [1], they came directly from the opening credits of the film. Then I see this edit [2], which added the film poster but removed all but the two main stars from the starring list. I initially did a revert of that edit (though retaining the poster) [3], but then read Template:Infobox film regarding the starring parameter, which states: Insert the names of the actors as they are listed in the billing block of the poster for the film's original theatrical release. If unavailable, use the top-billed actors from the screen credits. Other additions by consensus. I undid my revert [4], leaving just Peyton List and Jacob Bertrand, as only their names are indicated on the poster. But if I'm using other recent DCOMs for reference, like Adventures in Babysitting and Invisible Sister, those definitely list more than the top-billed (Sabrina Carpenter, Sofia Carson in Adventures; Rowan Blanchard, Paris Berelc in Sister), though the other names I believe (though haven't confirmed) are in the opening credits of those films. So whom do I list here—only those on the poster or everyone in the opening credits? MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:46, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

The on-screen credits supersede promotional posters and the like as they have the highest priority, so your revert was fine, honestly. Amaury (talk | contribs) 08:29, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

There's a conversation on my Talk page that says otherwise. Long-story short: WP:FILM and WP:TV handle the infobox cast listings differently. In WP:FILM articles (which presumably includes TV movie articles), the cast list in the infobox is supposed to come from the theatrical poster (the so-called "billing block"), whereas the cast list in the 'Cast' section is supposed to come from (presumably) the opening credits of the film. So what MPFitz1968 tried to do above – cut the cast list in the infobox to just List and Bertrand – is supposed to be correct. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:33, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

For the moment, I have restored the list to what I originally added on October 7, when I watched the film [5]. There's no doubt only List and Bertrand are the billed ones on the poster, and only their names should be listed in the infobox. On the other hand, and WP:OSE figures in big time as I look at a number of articles of recent DCOMs, there are more names listed in the infobox than showing on the promotional posters involved, where names are listed on the poster. Not all posters have the billing block, and then it comes to who is top-billed, but then comes the question about where the cutoff is on that; usually other promos that Disney puts out will be clear by identifying them by name. As these promos are hard to find once the movie has aired (aside perhaps from some YouTube clips), it's sometimes hard to verify who is considered top-billed for those films without the names on the promotional poster, and the ones I checked (without names on the poster) appear to have more names than should be in their infobox. For the record, I went back thru the DCOMs since 2012: Frenemies, Radio Rebel, Let It Shine, Girl vs. Monster, Teen Beach Movie, Cloud 9, Zapped, How to Build a Better Boy, Bad Hair Day, Teen Beach 2, Descendants, Invisible Sister and Adventures in Babysitting. MPFitz1968 (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@MPFitz1968: What this really boils down to is – are TV movies like the DCOMs to be treated as "film" or "television"? I think it can be argued either way. However, until like most TV movies, the DCOMs generally seem to have promotional posters, which would seem to put them more formally under the WP:FILM guidelines. So I'd argue that all the ones you listed above should have their cast lists in the infoboxes trimmed to just what's on the promotional posters shown at the articles... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:35, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@IJBall: This is not a shot at you in any way, just putting in my $0.02 as you would say, LOL! If the movie shows starring credits with X amount of actors, then I would like to believe it's fair that we list all of those in all cast listings—the info box, cast/characters section, and whatever else. I don't think it's fair to the actors to not list them if they got a starring credit. I think it was Geraldo Perez who commented on this "issue" quite a while ago in regard to on-screen credits having more priority—I think it was on my talk page, but I can't remember—though I admit that was in regard to television shows. I'm not sure if his opinions are the same or not on films. For example, you may see someone credited one way on a site, but credited another way on the actual show, the latter of which you should follow. For example, Sean Lambert (on-screen director credit) on Bella and the Bulldogs versus Sean K. Lambert listed on a site like IMDB.

On the subject of films, though, I'm not really sure if this counts as a film since it's a DCOM. When I think of films, I think of theatrical releases, and DCOMS are television movies. Both the terms "movie" and "film" generally mean the same thing, but there's also a difference. Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:52, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

And then there's the case of different promotional posters, like File:RadioRebel.jpg and the iTunes poster. Which is the "correct" one? nyuszika7h (talk) 18:55, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

That question is probably "editor's choice" (i.e. whichever one consensus prefers to use). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:01, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, and the starring list may be different based on which poster we decide to use. For Draft:The Standoff, there are at least four different posters I've found so far: iTunes, official website front page, synopsis page, and another one (though I'm not 100% sure if that last one is official). nyuszika7h (talk) 19:13, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be pretty strong indication in those 4 examples who the main above the title stars are with one of the posters showing just the leads. The billing block gives more info but for the article the top 4 seem to have the most support for being the actual stars of the movie. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:22, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, in that case it's the same on three out of four (minus the billing block on one, but I think when some names are listed explicitly that's preferable over the fuller billing block, though not sure), but it's still annoying that there are so many posters. Most films have multiple posters, Tini: The Movie has the one in the article plus two different versions for iTunes Europe and Latin America. nyuszika7h (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In the instant case the current list of "starring" in the infobox looks fairly excessive and somewhat unreasonable and I tend to put a lot more credence on the poster as to who is really starring and who is major supporting cast. TV series make this much clearer with opening credits listing the well-understood main cast with supporting cast in the end credits. I'd say treat this as a film and use official posters when that makes a clear statement of who really are the stars of the film. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@Amaury: I understand (and I'm not sure I really disagree with you either). But, as per this conversation at my Talk page, and what MPFitz1968 points out about WP:FILM guidelines above, this is how they do it as WP:FILM. Until consensus at the project changes on this question, we should follow the WP:FILM "billing block" guideline for infobox cast lists. As for the specific issue of "TV movies", that is probably something that needs to be hashed out between both WP:TV and WP:FILM... (I've been tempted to raise the latter issue, but I didn't have the stomach for it, and I don't have the time for it right now either.) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:01, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, together, I think MPFitz1968 and I have tackled most of the list of DCOM's listed above to bring them into compliance with the instructions at Template:Infobox film. However, I left three alone: Teen Beach Movie, Teen Beach 2 and Adventures in Babysitting – based on the poster art at those three, the infobox cast listing is actually missing people shown on the poster!... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:22, 9 October 2016 (UTC)