Talk:The Tale of the Princess Kaguya (film)

Storyline

Could someone describe the storyline of the folk tale in a few words? --Eddyspeeder (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The plot of the story can be found here. I am kind of reluctant to write the plot section now in this article because Studio Ghibli has not even released any details about the film plot, since it might not be a faithful recounting of the original story.--Lionratz (talk) 08:32, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I've written in the plot from what I remember of seeing the film a few hours ago. I might have misread some of the Chinese subtitles and I rather think I wrote too much (see the cleanup notice), so have at it. Danny Sepley (talk) 16:10, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Okay. I get the "punishment" part of the "A Princess' Crime and Punishment" tagline. But I've looked over the plot a few times and I can't find anything about what Kaguya did before the events of the film—the "crime" she committed. Did the film not go into that at all? —017Bluefield (talk) 17:25, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

That's my bad; during the sequence in which Kaguya details her origins there is indeed some explanation as to her existence and life on the Moon. Unfortunately the Chinese subtitles went just beyond my comprehension, and I couldn't get the meaning of the scene. I will do some digging (the Chinese article is all Greek to me, but I will make an effort to decipher it) in effort to remedy this. Danny Sepley (talk) 18:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Also, don't take offense to this, but I think putting this film into the category "Mind Control in Fiction" is a tad much. The mind-control you refer to is an almost trivial plot point deployed only very briefly at the end of the film. I see no harm in the categorization, but I'm just putting my opinion out here for the record. Cheers! Danny Sepley (talk) 18:26, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Despite the trailers indicating there would be some expansion into her crime, what is mentioned in the film is vague, only that she broke the Moon's laws in hopes of being sent to Earth as punishment, because she had wanted to experience living on Earth all along.Luminum (talk) 10:35, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The full plot of the story is available now -- it is extraordinarily similar to the original fable, though it contains a romantic subplot nonexistent in the overall version of the fable -- Kaguya has a love interest in the form of one of the boys from the country, and their reunion is seen to be a dream at best. In addition, the gifts that the suitors must bring are slightly different. If someone could compile these differences and append them into their respective articles... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.69.221.218 (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. Compare to the RM at Talk:Kaze Tachinu#Requested move. --BDD (talk) 17:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Kaguya-hime no Monogatari (film) → The Tale of Princess Kaguya (film) – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The official translated English name of the film, as well as The Wind Is Rising film, can be found here. (Wording for this request taken from Sjones23 here). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support as nom. See also Talk:Kaze Tachinu#Requested move for additional information, incorporated here by reference. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Changing to Oppose. After doing more research, I can't find any official sources which give these English titles. As there is no official English title yet, WP:MOS-JA and WP:COMMONNAME would both indicate that the romanization would be the correct title for the articles for now. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support the move. WP:COMMONNAME applies as well as the fact that the titles for our articles for Studio Ghibli's other films use the translation. MarnetteD | Talk 19:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
  • The others which use translations use the official English titles as released by Ghibli and the licensees. This makes them the most common. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is too soon. What is the proof that the Asahi article is giving the official title? It may be just the reporter translating the titles. Note that Arrietty went through multiple English titles before the final English language release titles were decided. I think we should wait until there is proof that the film has been shown in an English language context with an official English title (a film festival screening would be fine). Michitaro (talk) 19:25, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Michitaro's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support Per the nominator's rationale. I find it very unlikely that more people would find this page by searching for the transliterated title rather than the translated title. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 00:41, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. The same thing just happened over at Unofficial Sentai Akibaranger, after which I realized that people are going to try and do something with the Ghibli articles through the fact that this case has two of them to deal with. The title "The Tale of Princess Kaguya" is wrong; there is no known official source that has ever endorsed the translation. If there is some kind of official material that says otherwise, like with Akibaranger, it needs to be known immediately (I have looked hard and found nothing; this early in development, there is only a poster). If this changes at any point, it needs to be made clear why the change is being done and who is supplying the title. A news outlet is going to make up titles as they see fit, and we cannot use those. Despatche (talk) 11:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • "The Tale of Princess Kaguya" is an exact translation (rearranged to fit standard English word order) of the Japanese title, so it's definitely not wrong. At issue here is not whether the title is wrong, but whether it is the most common title. As there is no official English-language title yet, it is unlikely the translation is the most common. The title is certainly not "made up". There is a huge difference between an exact translation and "making it up". ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 29 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 09:43, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

---

The Tale of the Princess Kaguya → The Tale of the Princess Kaguya (film) – As of October 2020, the article gets roughly 25% more page-views than that of the 1,100-year-old literary work from which it is adapted, which is far less than the requirement to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC based on page-views alone. It is fairly well-established Wikipedia practice to fully disambiguate titles rather than looking for "natural" disambiguation by trying to establish whether one work is more widely called by one name and the other by another name when both are widely referred to be each other's name, so the current situation is not really tenable. (Strictly speaking, The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter is the name of a specific literary work, and the folk-tale/legend that is retold in said work, but also in several other pre-modern texts, is more widely referred to as either "Princess Kaguya" or "The Tale of Princess Kaguya", and this latter story is the basis for a number of modern retellings. English Wikipedia currently, clumsily and partly the fault of yours truly, lumps the two together in a single article.) Moreover, the previous RM shows that even back in 2013 when the film was actively making news, even those who advocated for the then-unofficial English release title did not consider this film to be the primary topic of that title. The current title is the result several clumsy, undiscussed moves that went against the consensus of the previous RM -- not only against the majority opinion and close statement, but even against the minority opinion.[1][2][3][4] That said, other films based on the story such as Princess from the Moon and Queen Millennia#Animated film are nowhere near as well-known outside Japan as this one, and seem to be rarely if ever called The Tale of Princess Kaguya in English-language sources, so there is probably no need to disambiguate from this title from them. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:02, 29 October 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BD2412 T 03:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —Nnadigoodluck███ 09:29, 26 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.— I-Bin-A-Bibi (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Probably worth noting that most official sources seem to capitalize the "T" in "The Princess Kaguya", apparently in accordance with a line break placing the "the" at the start of a new line, while many sources (roughly one third[5][6]) seem to omit the "the" altogether in spite of the film's international release title. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:12, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed that the one who added the "the" to the title was an SPA and judging by his username was very likely this person, meaning this was undisclosed COI editing. Given that the English subtitles on my Japanese Blu-Ray also use the awkward The Tale of the Princess Kaguya translation, I think an argument can be made that, despite the abundance of sources omitting the the, it is an "official title" endorsed by the film's creators and not just something devised by an American home media distributor, so I still mildly favour the proposed title that uses the English release title rather than the more natural one used in English-language reliable sources, but modifies the orthography (The => the) and adds a parenthetical disambiguator. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 19:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
• Weak oppose Per WP:SMALLDETAILS. Assuming it remains at this grammatically incorrect name, which appears to be the official name, there appears to be no reason to move it, as the original story is called The Tale of Princess Kaguya. The hatnote should do the job for those who are mis-directed._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 20:21, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm: Normally I'd be happy to agree to disagree on such a matter, but there appears to be a Berenstein Bears situation regarding the second "the" in the title.[7] I can personally attest to being so used to calling the film The Tale of Princess Kaguya that while typing the above OP comment my eyes just kinda glossed over the "the" as I was copy-pasting the current title and adding the parentheses to the proposed title, and I didn't notice what the title actually was until I "Ctrl+F"ed the word "move" in the page history and saw that the first unilateral move was to the one I assumed I was talking about and it wasn't until nine months later that an SPA introduced the "the". It is somewhat telling that it seemingly took someone personally involved in the US distribution of the film to add the "the" nine months later -- would you be opposed to moving the article to The Tale of Princess Kaguya (film) since it is more grammatically correct, intuitive, and seemingly about as common?

Most of the first page of the GNews hits for "the" seems to be dominated by generally-poor translations of Japanese newspapers that either (a) match the current Wikipedia article to establish the "common name" [this is what I do at work if I don't have time to do more thorough research] or (b) ignore the common name in favour of the "official" name even if it is mistranslated and no one uses it IRL [this is what a lot of Japanese clients with poor English insist on, which is why Japanese companies seem to disproportionately SHOUT THEIR NAMES IN ALL-CAPS -- it is very difficult for a freelance translator to communicate to the end-client that decorative text in a logo is not a guide to how to write the name in prose], and in neither case would it reflect actual usage; but even assuming all the "the" sources are just as useful for our purposes, 5/14 of the reliable sources still use the unofficial-but-better translation.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hijiri88:Regardless of what you think sounds better, the current name is what it's called on Metacritic and on the English box art, with THE PRINCESS KAGUYA in caps. Unless you can prove the story is commonly called the same thing, I think they can reasonably be called different per WP:SMALLDETAILS. If you can prove that, though, I'd be happy to change my vote, but it doesn't seem that way and it seems the SPA was only trying to correct it to the official title._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:35, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Metacritic doesn't have reviews of folk-tales, so why would it matter that Metacritic doesn't have a parenthetical "film" after the title? Anyway, the story doesn't need to be "commonly" called the same thing -- this title is insufficiently disambiguated even if the folk-tale is "sometimes", "occasionally", or even "infrequently" called by this title, which it is. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:54, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support if it can't even justify Primary by page views it certainly isn't Primary by 2nd criteria. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:40, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.