Talk:Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg/Archives/2012
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Hindu-German conspiracy? What about his role in the massacring of Armenians?
Why is there something in the article on something marginal such as the purported "Hindu-German conspiracy" but nothing on Bethmann-Hollweg's failure as chancellor to do all he could to prevent the Turkish allies from killing many hundreds of thousands of Armenian civilians? I am thinking of switching one for the other if a good source for the latter can be found.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 11:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity, I skimmed through the chapter titled "The issue of German Complicity" in Dadrian's "The History of the Armenian Genocide". Hollweg is only mentioned once - and it doesn't suggest he had much influence. The book says that when Hollweg was being mentioned by the German Emperor as a possible new Chancellor, it was pointed out Hollweg's ignorance on foreign policy matters. The Emperor dismisses that observation, saying "Foreign policy. You can leave that to me". Meowy 22:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- "I am thinking of switching one for the other if a good source for the latter can be found"... Where does you opinion come from if you don't have a"good source" ? Rcbutcher (talk) 01:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
(to Meowy): Bethmann was no patsy. According to Fritz Stern[1] when the Kaiser attempted to go over Bethmann's head in 1912 during German-British talks, the Chancellor countered by handing in his resignation and warning the Emperor of a policy that could eventually force Germany into attacking France. He wrote that he could not accept responsibility for such a policy: "By virtue of the commission entrusted to me by Your Majesty, I bear the responsibility before God, before the country, before history, and before my conscience for the policy ordered by Your Majesty. Even Your Majesty cannot relieve me of this responsibility." According to Stern the Emperor immediately relented.
(to Rcbutcher): I've assembled some good sources, next task is to boil them down to a manageable length so it doesn't unbalance the Article.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 16:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
It's in the article now
I condensed it as much as I could. For future reference I include below the raw text of my notes. Perhaps editors will find this useful for their work on this or another Article.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
(I)
Ralph Giordano: An den Brandherden der Welt (= Reporting on the Flashpoints of the World), ISBN 3-426-04860-4, 1992 paperback edition by Knaur Verlag of (c) 1990 book published by Rasch and Röhring Verlag, Hamburg
(1)
Original documents inspected by Giordano in his research:
Akte "Türkei 183" (the "Turkey 183" file), vols. 36 – 46, in Political Archive of German Foreign Office
Several hundred official memorandums from German consular officers stationed in Ottoman provincial posts, addressed to German Imperial Embassy and German Consul General in Constantinople-Pera.
Giordano (p.199-200): "The documents clearly show three things: how the mass murder was controlled by the Young Turks' triumvirate as personified by Talaat Bey; the extent and the details of the terror, as exemplified by the fate of numerous individuals; and the unambiguous response of the German Empire's leadership, represented by Reich Chancellor von Bethmann Hollweg, to stay silent, in spite of having exact knowledge of the crime, in the interest of expediency on behalf of the state and the alliance."[2]
(1.1)
R.G. p.200: Memorandum from German embassy in Constantinople to the Reich chancellor in Berlin, dated 17 June 1915:
The expulsions of the Armenian population from their residences in the eastern Anatolian provinces and their resettlement to other regions are being handled ruthlessly. ( … ) It is evident that the banishment of the Armenians is motivated not by military concerns alone. The Interior Minister Talaat Bey recently indicated to Dr. Mordtmann at the Imperial Embassy in no uncertain terms that the Porte wants to use the world war so as to deal conclusively with its internal enemies – i.e., domestic Christians – without diplomatic interference from abroad; he went on to say that such an approach was also in the interest of the Germans, being Turkey's allies, as Turkey would come out stronger for it.[3]
(1.2)
R.G. p.204: Memorandum from Ambassador Count zu Hohenlohe in Constantinople-Pera to Reich chancellor von Bethmann Hollweg in Berlin, dated 4 September 1915:
On the 2nd of the month Talaat Bey handed over to me a German translation of several telegraphic orders that he had directed to the relevant provincial authorities in the matter of the persecution of Armenians. He intended to prove thereby that the central government was sincerely endeavoring to put an end to the transgressions against Armenians that occurred in the interior and to provide for the nourishment of the banished persons in transport. Talaat Bey had told me some days prior: la question arménienne n'existe plus (the Armenian question is no more.)[4]
(1.3)
R.G. p.204: Ten days later, on 14 September 1915, von Hohenlohe forwarded a report from the Imperial Consul in Adana to Bethmann Hollweg:
The representation made to the Imperial Embassy by the Porte on 29 August was merely a crude deception, because (…) the Porte subsequently canceled that instruction in its entirety. Of course the authorities are complying only with the second instruction, continuing to banish without distinguishing by faith. Very likely the number of Armenians murdered by order already exceeds the number killed in the 1909 Young Turks massacres.[5]
(1.4)
R.G. p.205: On 7 December 1915 Ambassador Wolff-Metternich followed up from Constantinople with another dispatch to Bethmann Hollweg:
They are claiming exigencies of war which require that inciters be punished, and evading the charge that hundreds of thousands of women, children and elderly are being thrust into misery and put to death. ( … ) Our newspapers must give voice to concerns about the persecution of Armenians and stop showering praise on the Turks. What they are doing is our work, our officers, our artillery, our money. Without our help the bloated frog will collapse in on itself. ( … ) To succeed in the Armenian question, we must put fear in the hearts of the Turkish leadership regarding the consequences. Talaat Bey is the soul of the persecution of Armenians.[6]
R.G. p.205: At that point it was already too late, for the bulk of the deported Armenians had been killed by the end of 1915.
On 16 December, Bethmann Hollweg made the following annotation in the margin of that dispatch:
The proposed public dressing down of an ally in the midst of a war would be a disciplinary measure unprecedented in history. Our only goal is to keep Turkey by our side until the end of the war, regardless of whether Armenians perish in the process or not. If the war continues for much longer we will yet have great need of the Turks. I do not comprehend how Metternich can make such a proposal ( … ).[7]
(1.5)
In Berlin, the Imperial Government maintained a stony silence in spite of being copiously informed not only by Ambassadors and consuls but also by Johannes Lepsius. The situation had not changed by 11 January 1916 when Karl Liebknecht addressed von Bethmann Hollweg in the Reichstag with a question:
What steps has the Reich chancellor taken towards the allied Turkish government in order to bring about the required atonement, to restore human dignity to the condition of the remainder of Armenian Turkey, and to prevent the repetition of similar atrocities? [8]
When the government replied with an evasive answer, Liebknecht tried to follow up but was shouted down and prevented from speaking further.
R.G. p.205: History knows only one answer: none were taken.
R.G. p.206: When the Germans did decide to intervene such intervention was effective. In mid-November 1915 Marshal Liman von Sanders stepped in as Armenians were about to be deported en masse from Smyrna, threatening use of force if his warning were not heeded. The Wali then complied.
(2)
Armin T. Wegner: photography, in Deutsches Literaturarchiv at Marbach am Neckar.
Giordano (p.199): "This German medic, on staff with Field Marshal von der Goltz, took part in the march from Constantinople to Baghdad across the deportation territory and took many hundreds of photographic recordings in disregard of a strict prohibition. Among them are images of a type seen by the world only one other time: when the German concentration and extermination camps were liberated by allied troops in 1944/45."[9]
(II)
Wolfgang Gust, ed.: Der Völkermord an den Armeniern 1915/15: Dokumente aus dem Politischen Archiv des Auswärtigen Amts (= The Genocide of the Armenians 1915/16: Documents from the Political Archive of the German Foreign Office), with preface by Vahakn N. Dadrian, ISBN 3-934920-59-4, published by zu Klampen Verlag, Springe 2005
(1)
Verification that the documents quoted by Giordano are quoted accurately:
(1.1) Document 1915-06-21-DE-012, p.171: ACCURATE
(1.2) Document 1915-09-04-DE-001, p.292: ACCURATE
(1.3) Document 1915-09-14-DE-001, p.305: NOT ENTIRELY ACCURATE (in fact, quote is from enclosed report by Imperial Consul in Adana, not cover letter by Hohenlohe. CHANGE MADE to reflect the record accurately.)
(1.4) Document 1915-12-07-DE-001, p.394: ACCURATE (added passages not quoted by Giordano PLUS annotation by Bethmann Hollweg).
(1.5) Document 1916-01-11-DE-001, p.422: ACCURATE (but gets date wrong, corrected; Giordano does not mention that Liebknecht was shouted down).
NOTE
English translation of German documents is based in part on Gust 2005 ("Abstracts"), after review and verification for accuracy, style and clarity by user:Goodmorningworld.
References
- ^ Fritz Stern, Bethmann Hollweg und der Krieg: Die Grenzen der Verantwortung, in Recht und Staat, vol. 351/352, p.15
- ^ Aus den Dokumenten lässt sich dreierlei klar erkennen: die regierungsamtliche Lenkung des Massenmords durch das jungtürkische Triumvirat, personifiziert durch Talaat Bey, das Ausmaß und die Details des Schreckens, an zahlreichen Einzelschicksalen individualisiert, und die eindeutige Reaktion der deutschen Reichsführung, repräsentiert durch den Reichskanzker von Bethmann Hollweg, aus Staats- und Bündnisräson trotz genauer Kenntnis des Verbrechens zu schweigen.
- ^ Die Austreibung der armenischen Bevölkerung aus ihren Wohnsitzen in den ostanatolischen Provinzen und ihre Ansiedelung in anderen Gegenden wird schonungslos durchgeführt. ( … ) Daß die Verbannung der Armenier nicht allein durch militärische Rücksichten motiviert ist, liegt zutage. Der Minister des Innern, Talaat Bey, hat sich hierüber kürzlich gegenüber dem zur Zeit bei der Kaiseerlichen Botschaft beschäftigten Dr. Mordtmann ohne Rücksicht dahin ausgesprochen, daß die Pforte den Weltkrieg dazu benutzen wollte, um mit ihren inneren Feinden – den einheimischen Christen – gründlich aufzuräumen, ohne dabei durch die diplomatische Intervention des Auslandes gestört zu werden; das sei auch im Interesse der mit der Türkei verbündeten Deutschen, da die Türkei auf diese Weise gestärkt werde.
- ^ Talaat Bey übergab mir am 2. d.M. die in Abschrift beigefügte deutsche Übersetzung von verschiedenen telegraphischen Befehlen, die er in Sachen der Armenierverfolgung an die in Betracht kommenden Provinzialbehörden gerichtet hat. Er wolle hiermit den Beweis liefern, daß die Zentralregierung ernstlich bemüht ist, den im Innern vorgekommenen Ausschreitungen gegen die Armenier ein Ende zu machen und für die Verpflegung der Ausgewiesenen auf dem Transport Sorge zu tragen. Mit Bezug hierauf hatte Talaat Bey einige Tage vorher mir gegenüber die Äußerung getan: la question arménienne n'existe plus.
- ^ Die der Kaiserlichen Botschaft von der Pforte gemachte Mitteilung bezüglich der Armenier vom 29. August ist lediglich eine dreiste Täuschung der Botschaft, weil auf Betreiben des hier entsandten Inspektors Ali Nunif Bey die Pforte nachher diese Verfügung vollkommen aufgehoben hat. Die Behörden handeln selbstredend nur nach der zweiten Weisung und fahren fort mit der Ausweisung ohne Unterschied des Bekenntnisses. Die Zahl der auf Order ermordeten Armenier übersteigt wahrscheinlich bereits die Masse der Opfer der jungtürkischen Massaker von 1909. (In the cover letter, von Hohenlohe attenuates the Consul's language, stating that there was no evidence that a deception had been intended.)
- ^ Sie verschanzen sich hinter Kriegsnotwendigkeiten, daß Aufrührer bestraft werden müßten, und gehen der Anklage aus dem Wege, daß Hunderttausende von Frauen, Kindern und Greisen ins Elend gestoßen weerden und umkommen. (…) Die Seele der Armenierverfolgung ist Talaat Bey.
- ^ Die vorgeschlagene öffentliche Koramierung eines Bundesgenossen während laufenden Krieges wäre eine Maßregel, wie sie in der Geschichte noch nicht dagewesen ist. Unser einziges Ziel ist, die Türkei bis zum Ende des Krieges an unserer Seite zu halten, gleichgültig ob darüber Armenier zu Grunde gehen oder nicht. Bei länger andauerndem Kriege werden wir die Türken noch sehr brauchen, Ich begreife nicht, wie Metternich diesen Vorschlag machen kann (…).
- ^ Welche Schritte hat der Herr Reichskanzler bei der verbündeten türkischen Regierung unternommen, um die gebotene Sühne herbeizuführen, die Lage des Restes der armenischen Türkei menschenwürdig zu gestalten und die Wiederholung ähnlicher Greuel zu verhindern?
- ^ Dieser deutsche Sanitätsgefreite zog damals im Stabe des Feldmarschalls von der Goltz auf dem Marsch von Konstantinopel nach Bagdad quer durch das Deportationsgebiet und machte trotz strikten Verbots Hunderte und aber Hunderte fotografischer Aufnahmen. Darunter sind Bilder, wie sie die Welt nur noch einmal gesehen hat: nach der Befreiung der deutschen Konzentrations- und Vernichtungslager durch die alliierten Armeen 1944/45."
preview
Please use Amazon books to search inside the book and see for yourself. Per my edit summary.radek (talk) 10:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Stop cutting my information just because you don't like it
I found an Associated Press report from after World War I that states that Bethmann-Hollweg was partly of Jewish extraction. I added this to the personal information about Bethmann-Hollweg, along with a link to a PDF of the article in the New York Times. All I said was that according to this article, he was of Jewish extraction. That is a demonstrably, undeniably true statement! It definitely was stated in an AP report that appeared in the New York Times that Bethmann-Hollweg was of Jewish descent. Why then would somebody keep removing this reference? GoodMorningWorld has done this several times. He claims that it is CERTAINLY not true, but IT IS CERTAIN that the AP said it and that it appears in the New York Times. If GoodMorningWorld has some argument that the claim in the AP story was wrong then he should post it in the text of the article along with the claim. Otherwise he appears to be trying to censor information that he finds disagreeable. Who the hell does he think he is?Hadding (talk) 14:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
- I explained to you why including this information in the article is inappropriate, on your Talk page on July 2: "It doesn't matter what some foreign correspondent for the NYT mistakenly wrote 90 years ago if we know with certainty that it is false. The only reason to include it in the encyclopedia would be if the false report had turned into an incident in its own right. In that case, some brief mention might be warranted. Otherwise, no." Wikipedia is not an indiscrimate collection of information. Goodmorningworld (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
You haven't explained anything that matters. You assert that the information is false, despite the eminence of the source, and the information is to be suppressed based on nothing more than your say-so. Why you believe that it is false is your own secret; it is clear only that you do not want to allow it to be discussed. I do not think that this kind of dogmatism and censoriousness represent an appropriate attitude for someone contributing to an encyclopaedia.
Since there is a section of the article that discusses Bethmann-Hollweg's ethnic heritage, I think it is clearly relevant that he was identified by the Associated Press and the New York Times in his own lifetime as a person of Jewish descent. The Associated Press and the New York Times are normally considered credible journalistic sources, so that the burden of proof rests on you to show that what was reported was false. If you really know what you pretend to know, that Bethmann-Hollweg was not a person of Jewish descent, then prove it. Hadding (talk) 18:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'm growing really tired of Hadding's belligerent, know-nothing approach to encyclopedic articles. Wikipedia isn't some game where you fire up Google, find a hit, then carry that snippet back here and wedge it into an article, without knowing anything at all about the article subject and therefore being in no position to evaluate its accuracy. I am reverting Hadding's repeated insertion of false information. Hadding, consider this your only warning. If you continue this destructive and harmful approach I will report you to an admin noticeboard. Alternatively – if you want to demonstrate a sincere interest – then learn German and read this passage in a book by historian Fritz Fischer, which speaks of B.-H.'s parentage. Or just read the goddamn Wikipedia article which already contains that information. Goodmorningworld (talk) 19:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
That is not a "passage" about "Bethmann-Hollweg's parentage." That is a chapter about Bethmann-Hollweg as chancellor, from a book about Hitler. I do not believe that the claim from the Associated Press and New York Times about Bethmann-Hollweg's Jewish ethnic heritage is addressed whatsoever in that book.
If there is a sentence in that book that you think makes your case then why don't you cite it?
I hope that you do call in the administrators, because I would like to call attention to a certain paranoid mind that believes that there is some conspiracy spanning the entire internet with the purpose of misrepresenting certain people as Jews. To wit, from the history page of the Bethmann-Hollweg entry:
17:08, 27 July 2008 Goodmorningworld (talk | contribs) (9,095 bytes) (Somebody has been very busy "salting" links with misinformation, all with the purpose of building up a Jewish family tree for Cosima Wagner...)
There is no conspiracy! If there is, then what a coup they pulled, salting the New York Times' PDF archives. Wow!!!
Hadding (talk) 00:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- User Hadding was blocked indefinitely by administrator Fut.Perf. in October 2009 because "We don't need nazi propagandists in this project."--82.113.106.28 (talk) 05:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Undue weight
The existence of an entire section on one marginal comment Bethmann made about the Armenian Genocide is a pretty substantial violation of the concept of due weight. No biography of Bethmann would devote any comparable percentage of its space to such a discussion. I'd suggest removing it - unless this article becomes much longer, it doesn't belong here. It might belong as part of an article about German response to the Armenian genocide, or some such. john k (talk) 06:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
From WP:UNDUE:
An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic.
The Armenian material here clearly violates this. john k (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
- You need to check your priorities. Inclusion of an obscure factoid, namely a 100-year-old erroneous or libelous misidentification of B. as having Jewish ancestry -- and presentation of this misinformation as deserving first mention and more space than the truth? Now THAT'S both undue AND misleading! (Note that the factoid was introduced via persistent edit warring by an editor who was later kicked out from Wikipedia for being a Nazi propagandist -- the compulsion to "unmask the closet Jew" is a surefire way to identify both Nazis and people suffering from an unhealthy fascination with Jews.) Feel free to remedy this, if you can stomach the inevitable outrage from... well I don't need to spell out from who.
- As far as B.'s determined non-intervention in Turkey's genocide of the Armenians, of course it belongs. It sheds light on B.'s character and the principles by which he governed and conducted the war. Should a quarter of the article be devoted to this important aspect? No, of course not. But the solution is not to delete something that is both relevant and well-sourced. Rather, get off your duff and start adding relevant and well-sourced information to make this article more complete! 93.207.95.176 (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think that the Jewish ancestry thing should be in the article either. I didn't realize it was, or I would have removed it as well. The article does not discuss Bethmann's "determined non-intervention in Turkey's genocide of the Armenians." It discusses a single marginal note on a diplomatic dispatch. And it shouldn't be in this article until the rest of the article is detailed enough so that it no longer constitutes undue weight. The article has two sentences about the July Crisis, one sentence about unrestricted submarine warfare, one sentence about his fall from power, and twelve sentences about this dispatch, which are sourced not to reliable secondary sources, but to primary documents. This section provides no context, and no indication that reliable secondary sources have discussed it at all. It does not belong in this article. john k (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- So now it's "original research"? Before you claimed "NPOV". You keep changing your rationale. Gust 2005 is a reliable secondary source, the original documents are in the archives of the German government, and Gust cites them; both Wolfgang Gust and Vahakn N. Dadrian, the author of the preface, are respected scholars. Those historical sources were also cited in Giordano's widely read book (albeit not with 100% accuracy; but Giordano is a journalist, not an academic, and is not listed as a reference). The authenticity of the chancellor's note is not in dispute.
- I don't think that the Jewish ancestry thing should be in the article either. I didn't realize it was, or I would have removed it as well. The article does not discuss Bethmann's "determined non-intervention in Turkey's genocide of the Armenians." It discusses a single marginal note on a diplomatic dispatch. And it shouldn't be in this article until the rest of the article is detailed enough so that it no longer constitutes undue weight. The article has two sentences about the July Crisis, one sentence about unrestricted submarine warfare, one sentence about his fall from power, and twelve sentences about this dispatch, which are sourced not to reliable secondary sources, but to primary documents. This section provides no context, and no indication that reliable secondary sources have discussed it at all. It does not belong in this article. john k (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- In a "real" encyclopedia, this article in its present condition would not be allowed to go to press. But that is not how Wikipedia works. Articles grow in fits and starts, by bits and pieces. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's guidelines. Note, please, you have "boldly" deleted the same passage threee times now. Read WP:BRD. Back off from deleting again but feel free to continue discussion on this Talk page.--62.96.234.17 (talk) 16:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I have moved the lengthy quote from Wolff-Metternich's dispatch to a footnote, reducing the length of this sub-section in the body of the article but preserving the information for anyone interested enough to check the footnote. 89.204.137.234 (talk) 09:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I was not disputing the accuracy of the comments. But what appeared to be going on was that you were directly citing a primary source, which we're not supposed to do in Wikipedia. If reliable secondary sources have discussed it, it's appropriate for somewhere in wikipedia, but it's still not appropriate for a single marginal note about an issue that was only a very minor part of an individual's career to take up some enormous percentage of his wikipedia article. I'm still not really convinced that this material belongs here at all - how much space does it take up in full length biographies of Bethmann? I'll not mess with the footnote, but I think any kind of inclusion is pretty close to a textbook definition of undue weight. john k (talk) 16:46, 11 February 2012 (UTC)