Talk:These Final Hours

Plot section needs references from reliable sources

I believe the detailed Plot section for this article requires references from reliable sources. This section appears to include details that could only be gleaned from analyzing characters' actions, which raises concerns about original research being included in this article. There's no sourcing exception I'm aware of for movie plots, and the more detailed we get the more risk we take on as a project. Townlake (talk) 16:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Townlake. Good call on spotting the WP:OR. A plot should simply be a brief write-up of what actually happened, not analize as you mention. Plots don't have to be sourced as such (raised before at WT:FILM, although I don't have time to search for it right now). Look at any Featured Article (example) to see that you don't need to source a plot. I've not seen this film, so I don't know what happens, but you can always be bold and remove anything that clearly is someone's view on what happened. And happy new year! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Lugnuts, a very happy new year to you and yours too! While I appreciate your advice, I'm not really inclined to take the Wikiproject's word for it about what needs to be sourced and what doesn't. As you know, Wikiprojects can't decide on rules that trump Wikipedia's most basic rules about things like OR and RS. That in mind, I'll go back through the plot over the weekend and label potentially problematic statements. Townlake (talk) 01:35, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Well WP:LOCALCONSENSUS does just that. I've never seen a plot sourced on any film article, unless there's something that's been the bone of conention, such as a girl's age, for example. WP:FILMPLOT goes into more detail ("...Since the film is the primary source and the infobox provides details about the film, citing the film explicitly in the plot summary's section is not necessary..."). Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 15:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the links Lugnuts. I'm familiar with both those things. It seems we ready them very differently. From Local Consensus: "participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." And, there's important context to consider from your FilmPlot quote; the part you copied here only applies to basic plot summaries. Seems to me the summary in this article is more detailed than a basic plot summary, whatever the word count may be (a good definition of "basic" is not provided at FilmPlot), because it gets into story details and insights on character motivations that go beyond what's needed to understand the high-level plot of the movie. I don't want to get in a Wikilaw fight with you, I just hope you understand where I'm coming from: There's a risk to the project if details in the plot section are unverifiable and potentially incorrect. What's the corresponding benefit to the project from not referencing film plots? (Obviously I'm now speaking to a bigger issue than just the situation in this article.) Townlake (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I do understand where you're coming from. I know the issue has been raised before, hence why WP:FILMPLOT exists, so if you need a more indepth reasoning, please raise a question at WT:FILM. Cheers! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:17, 1 January 2015 (UTC)