Talk:Tianjin dialect

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Fellow Wikipedians,

I obtained this information about the Tianjin accent (DF08 edit, creation of article as a stub) from a friend who travels back and forth from Beijing to Tianjin. I've also been to Tianjin a fair number of times. I disclose what I've written -- but it may be that some of this contains faults, so feel more than free to tweak the article as you see fit and as it fits in with the facts.

--DF08 11:11, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

Hi, my father and his family were originally from Tianjin. They still speak Tianjinese amongst each other, so I often have the chance to listen. Here are some characteristics that you seem to have left out, but I am not sure on their accuracy:

-The lack of 捲舌音 (similar to Taiwan Mandarin) so that zhi shifts to zi, shi shifts to si, chi shifts to ci, and ALSO, ri shifts to yi (so 讓 > 樣 & 人>"yen2")

-Certain null initial words get replaced with n-initial, such as 愛ai4 become 奈nai4. -餓e4 becomes wo4臥.. I don't see a pattern to this change, only that 餓 is read with the original syllable of 我..

Also, here's a reference to the Tianjin dialect's tone sandhi that I found that was quite useful: http://aune.lpl.univ-aix.fr:16080/~sprosig/tal2004/tal2004-Beijing/Davison.pdf

1-1 > 3-1 || 天Tian1 津Jin1 > Tian3 Jin1 3-3 > 2-3 (similar to Mandarin's tone sandhi) 1-4 > 2-4 || 上shang1 班ban4 4-4 > 1-4 || 政zheng4 治zhi4 > "整"zheng3 治zhi4 (I have not heard this pattern at all in our family's speech, so take it with a grain of salt).

Hk3dragon 08:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)hk3dragon Hi all,

I am a Tianjin native who lives among Beijing and Tianjin natives all my life. Based on my experience Beijing, Tianjin and other Northeastern cities like Harbin, Shenyang, Changchun, etc, I would like to suggestthe followings:

1) To remove the reference that Tianjin is similar to Taiwanese in ch/sh/zh. The origins of Taiwanese and Tianjin's ch/sh/zh are completely different.

2) To remove the statement that Beijing dialect and Tianjin dialect are quite different. This is very unprecise. Reasons are based on the following facts:

i) Historically there were 2 Beijing dialects as well as two Tianjin dialects. The two Beijing dialects were one spoken by the Bannerman in the 内城 Inner City(today's Dong Cheng 东城 (East City) and Xi Cheng 西城 (West City)) and one by the Han people in 外城 (Outer City). The differences were mainly in vocabulary, tone, word order and grammar. The two Tianjin dialects, one in He Xi 河西 (west of Hai He 海河) and one in He Dong 河东 (east of Hai He 海河), differ mainly in tone pitch (22 vs 11) and the distribution of ch/sh/zh. Standard Mandarin in the 30's and Putonghua are based on Inner City Beijing tone with mix Tianjin vocabulary. It was actually first used by people living in the Tianjin Concessions. For example, Meaning Beijing Tianjin 去 (to go) "ke" "qu" 和 (and) "han" "he"

ii) From the perspective of categorization and classification of Mandarin dialects in Beijing, Tianjin, Hebei and North East, the pitches of the flat tone vary from (high to low): Beijing (55), Harbin (44), Shenyang (33), Tianjin (22 in west Tianjin, 21 in Old City and 11 in Da Zhi Gu). The gradual descence of tonal pitches is quite continuous.

iii) The historical development of the tonal system are identical with only some very minor differences in few words. This is true for all dialects from the line of Shijiazhuang and Jinan (Shangdong) to Sino-Russia border.

iv) The presence of nasal sound n/ng in front of words such as ai (to love) is universal in the above mentioned region (Hebei, Beijing suburb, Tianjin, Northeast).

v) The wide use of diminitives -r sound at the end of nouns, personal names, verbs (replacing 了le in past tense) is also universal in both Beijing and Tianjin dialects. Actually to Shangdong Ren and Northeasters this wide use of -r is typically Beijing-Tianjin-Northern Hebei acccent. For example, Wo Daor (我到儿 I arrived)

The one characteristic that separates Beijing dialect from all other Northern Chinese Mandarin dialect, in my opinion, is the lack of nasal sound n in words such as ai (爱Love). For Tianjin, it is the low flat tone (22/21/11).

By the way, quite a few famous actors, writers and directors who are icons of Beijing culture are Tianjin natives: Zhang Guo Li 张国立 (actor, director, producer), Deng You Mei 邓友梅(writer), Yu Shi Zhi 于是之(stage actor). Hou Bai Li 侯宝林, in his autobiography, stated that he believed he was born in Tianjin before he was adopted by the Hou family, a Manchu family, in Beijing. His earliest memory of the adoption was travlling through crowded streets and then a big river to the train station, get on the train and then arrived in Beijing two hour later. This could only be Tianjin as Tianjin Station is by the Hai River.

Karolus

I'm American. I lived in Tianjin for three years and picked up a distinct Tianjin accent in my Mandarin. I was informed of this when I traveled around other regions, including in Beijing. I agree with some of the above statements, especially the one about the -r sound at the end of... well, heavens, sometimes darn near everything. I think it's the dialects most notable trait. The taxi drivers in Tianjin sounded like "r r r r r r r" all the time. For example, the Tianjin location Ba Li Tai (八里台) sounded like Bar Li Tar (as spoken with an American accent) to me whenever the taxi drivers said it.

Also, I had little trouble being understood in Beijing with my wacky American/Tianjin accent, although I did have some trouble in Taiyuan. People in Beijing were a little confused until I told them I lived in Tianjin; then they were no longer weirded out. They expected foreigners to speak textbook Mandarin, I suppose, which I certainly do not. I also said "you guai" 友拐 and "zuo guai" 左拐 to Beijing taxi drivers, which apparently is quite unusual. I was told that in Beijing you use the cardinal directions (north, south, east, west) to give directions. That wouldn't work in Tianjin, since the city is SO not built on a north-south grid.

Kaerondaes (talk) 13:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

sandhi

there are two contradictory tone sandhi summaries, one at the bottom of the page. can someone verify which is correct? kwami (talk) 21:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

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If you are referring to the two rules marked as 'dubious - discuss' they are not contradictory, and Tianjin does indeed possess the four Sandhi rules as specified in the article. You can reference

pages 105-149 in Chen, Matthew (2000) Tone Sandhi. University of Cambridge press

pages 59-61 in Bao, Zhiming (1999) The Structure of Tone. Oxford University press 184.144.105.174 (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)