Talk:Tipu Sultan/Archive 2

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tipu as a saint

tipu is regarded as a saint (waliallah) as i get information i will add up in the main page...can anyone also help me out or is there any objection.....people of all faith visit his shrine in srirangapatnam...

Tippu Sultan was a pious ruler. He was a "wali" of God, not a saint. Kanchanamala 04:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

So he was fighting for god, not freedom. Hkelkar 04:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Anyway, like Maharana Pratap and Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaja, Tippu Sultan was a pious ruler who fought and died for the freedom of our country.64.163.129.139 04:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the tiny and erstwhile kingdom of Mysore constituted a country :-). Hkelkar 04:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj was a great man (unlike Tipu, who was nothing compared to him).The Chatrapati WAS a freedom fighter because the political entity that he created (the Maratha Confederacy) was not a despotic unit (at least, until the Peshwas got their grubby little paws on it) but a loose confederacy of principalities run by regional governors. Some of those provinces were oppressed, others were more egalitarian. The Chhatrapati himself was an egalitarianist and en enlightened ruler who treated the subjects under his immediate control fairly and justly.The Chatrapati fought to create a system that was inherently superior to the barbarity and oppression of the Mughals. In contrast, Tipu was a tiny tribal leader of a largely insignificant kingdom, whose deeds have been exaggerated by folklore. Tipu was not fighting for freedom, but to preserve his monarchial rule over his kingdom. He clearly had no conception of egalitarianism, unlike Chhatrapati Shivaji. Hkelkar 04:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Like the kingdoms of Maharana Pratap of Mewar and Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaja and Maharani Lakshmi Bai of Jhansi, Mysore of Tippu Sultan was also part of our country.Kanchanamala 05:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

He was part of our history, not part of our country as our country did not exist back then. Our country was created in 1947. Hkelkar 05:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to your perspective. You know mine. Kanchanamala 05:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a good constructive discussion going on here. I admit, I admired Tipu Sultan till recently. I knew about him of course, from Sanjay Khan's TV serial and many other history books which I read. However, for all his greatness, he simply cannot be compared with Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. Infact, not even Maharan Pratap or Akbar can be compared with the great Shivaji. Shivaji created an empire from zero. Tell me anyone else who did. It is well-known that Tipu inherited a kingdom which was usurped by his father Haider Ali, no less brave. But Shivaji's administration, his religious policy, the way he captured the hearts of even his foes, that's what makes him great. Tipu couldn't turn his foes into allies. We often wonder what could've been if the ruling Peshwa would've joined with Tipu, but Mysore had historical hostility towards Marathas and had unnecessarily waged innumerable battles against Marathas for no reasons whatsoever. I always admired rulers like Tipu and Akbar for their religious policies. But, in light of recent developments, I am quite shocked to know that Tipu carried out religious persecutions. I was reminded of the Styx song 'Show Me The Way' which goes as

"And every day I'm more confused as the saints turn into sinners

All the heroes and legends I knew as a child have fallen to idols of clay

And I feel this empty place inside so afraid that I've lost my faith"

--NRS | ^T/_M\^B 05:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have the utmost respect for Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaja. Akbar was a successor of Babur who invaded our country to impose Islam on us.Kanchanamala 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tipu Sultan According to me was a tyrant and most cunning king in the history of India. He converted many Hindus especially Namboodri Brahmins to Islam. He ruthlessly killed many Hindus as well as Christens. It is also true that he donated lands to some temples. But this was in order to appease the Hindus who would help him in the battle with British. There is one book “Tipu Sultan : Villain or Hero?” on this subject by renowned writer Sita Ram Goel. I’d recommend this book to get insight of actual doings of Tipu Sultan. In my child hood I like Tipu Sultan because of famous TV serial “The Sword Of Tipu Sultan”. But now I think the serial is work of Pseudo-History. Anik

Tippu Sultan was an illustrious Indian ruler. He was also a freedom fighter. Only an ignorant person or a fanatic would call him names. Kanchanamala 04:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Whose freedom was he fighting for? Hkelkar 04:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Tippu Sultan fought against the British in Mysore. Kanchanamala 00:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

So what's your point? How does that make him a "Freedom fighter"? He was fighting to save his monarchial rule over Mysore. He had no conception of India as a political and national unit. Did he fight for all Indians? What about the people of Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura? They're Indians too, you know. Did he fight for them? Did he even know that they existed?What about the Bengalis, the Gujaratis, the Marathas (his arch enemies btw),the Coorgi Hindus etc.? He "fought for their freedom" by killing them, right? His subjects were never "free". You can't be "free" in a despotic and absolutist monarchy. In fact, they were probably more free under the British than under Tipu. Ironic, isn't it? Hkelkar 00:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In the context of his times, I have shared the view that Tippu Sultan was a freedom fighter.Kanchanamala 00:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

What context is that, exactly? Where is the context.I think your view is motivated more by tribal historical revisionism and that sad cartoon by Bhagwan S. Gidwani-a-la Sanjay Khan than any historical or scholarly narratives, not to mention the toilet paper that passes for history books in most Indian schools.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a diehard patriotic Indian, same as you I guess. However, I am not above criticizing my beloved Indian brothers for being a group of misinformed delusional windbags in some matters (much like an older brother would have love for his younger brother or sister and still not be beyond scolding him/her). Hkelkar 01:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I understand you. If we agree that Tippu Sultan was an Indian, like you and me, but was born and raised in a Muslim family, then we are happy campers.Kanchanamala 00:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Forced conversion of Konkani Catholics to islam

For all those who claim that Tipu Sultan was secular need to read the following,it sure will bring tears to your eyes.

The tide against the Mangalorean Catholics began to turn for the worse upon Hyder Ali's death in December 1782. Tipu took over. Now began the hardest times our Mangaloreans ancestors had to endure.

The English, sensing weakness caused by Hyder's death, attacked. They overtook Ananthpur, where the revengeful English committed atrocities that are still shrouded in silence because of the heinous acts committed by the soldiers against the population. The men were killed outright; the women were raped, stripped of their jewelry, and then herded to a large tank to be drowned. The English army then advanced on the Manglaore fort and captured it.

Tipu reacted swiftly. With 12,000 men and aided by the French he advanced and re-took Bednur and Anantpur. General Matthews was captured and sent to Seringapatam (Srirangapatana), where he eventually died in irons.

On 20th May 1783, Tipu laid siege on the Mangalore fort, since he was unable to capture it from the British. His 30,000 soldiers and carpetbaggers camped all around the fort. Nothing was allowed inside or out. In the fort were the English soldiers and 80,000 Mangalorean Christians. This siege lasted for 18 months. The tribulations of the inhabitants trapped inside is described:

"Such an extreme of famine was suffered by the garrison, that the most disgusting means were had recourse to for the allaying of hunger and thirst. Animals and reptiles not usually eaten were sold for prices beyond credibility. The defense was effectual however, for the place was not given up until the end of the war, when it was surrendered on honorable terms, and was found little more than a heap of ruins."

After 18 months of siege, the fort was finally delivered to Tipu in an armistice. But Tipu was not to be calmed down. After the British left, the remaining foreigners and "Eurasians" or "mesticos" (half Europeans, half Indians) were killed, the rest escaping to Mumbai Island. Tipu now turned his rage to the local inhabitants of the fort, the Mangalorean Christians. Those condemned by Tipu Sultan for treachery were hanged instantly, the gibbets being weighed down by the number of bodies they carried. In one single day 5,600 Mangalorean Christians were killed. The Netravati River was so putrid with the stench of dying bodies, that the local residents were forced to leave their riverside homes.

After this point Tipu displayed open hatred for the Christians. Some accounts say that Tipu received reports that the Christians had earlier paid Rs 30,000 to the British at Bombay to send troops to save the Christians in the fort, but these accounts have never been substantiated. But even if they did so, this was not lack of patriotism, because in my view, both the British and the Muslims were foreigners, and the Christians were just hedging their bets!

Whatever the reason, Tipu now decided that the time had come to exterminate the Mangalorean Christians off the face of the earth. The Europeans were beyond his grasp, but the Mangalorean Christians would do for now.

Destruction of Churches

With the Christians out of the way, Tipu now set about eradicating Christianity completely. All churches were ordered razed to the ground. Buchanan reports that "in Tuluva, the Christians had 27 churches, (the Memorial to the Holy See records 29) all beautifully carved with statues depicting various saints. Every one was razed to the ground". Other churches that were spared were converted to storehouses, offices, or homes for wealthy Muslims.

Down they came, all the imposing structures so dear to the Mangaloreans:

· Church of Nossa Senhora de Rosario Milagres at Mangalore,

· Fr Miranda's Seminary at Monte Mariano,

· Church of Jesu Marie Jose at Omzoor,

· Chapel at Bolar, and Church of Merces at Ullal,

The list goes on…Imaculata Conceiciao at Mulki, San Jose at Perar, Nossa Senhora dos Remedios at Kirem, Sao Lawrence at Karkal, Rosario at Barkur, Immaculata Conceciao at Baidnur…

The bell of the church at Patrie found their way to the Shankar Narayan temple at Hosangadi, an 1860-lb specimen. Many other bells dot the temples and museums of Kanara.

All land owned by the captured Christians was taken over by Tipu and distributed among his favorites.

Arrival at Srirangapatna

"All Musalmans should unite together, and considering the annihilation of infidels as a sacred duty, labor to the utmost of their power, to accomplish that subject."

These words ordered by Tipu Sultan echoed in the ears of the hapless Mangalorean Christians as he set about with serious intent to carry out his exhortation at Srirangapatna.

Srirangapatna is a small island 3 miles long and 2 miles wide, on the banks of the Kaveri River. It is a granite island, with water on 3 sides, the fourth side having a large moat, with a drawbridge. It was an almost impregnable fortress, which the British had a very hard time capturing.

After arriving at Srirangapatna, this is what happened to the survivors of the long march:

· All those who embraced Islam were freed.

· The young men who did not give up Christianity were thrown into the dungeons, then marked conspicuously in some way (like cutting off their noses, or ears, or a hand), and then made to perform the lowest tasks of the community.

· Every single young woman and girl were forcibly made wives and slaves of the Muslims living there, and their descendants are now fully Islamic.

· The old women were made to embrace Islam, and those who refused were thrown over the fort and dashed on the rocks below.

· The old men were made to perform scavenge work and attend to the toilets. They were pushed into the untouchable class.

Many young men fought brave and hard to prevent their mothers and sisters from being taken by the army officers to join the harems, but the punishment was swift and brutal.

An English prisoner relates:

"Two risalas were sent daily to Srirangapatna to select girls that they could take as prizes to join their harems. Often, when they seized the girls, their young men would offer resistance and smash their dhoolies. The officers would capture the men and administer five hundred strokes with whips and canes, from the effects of which many men died.

The Jemadars and Subedars meted out more ignominious punishment by slitting off their ears and noses. One of these, a certain Babli Anton, made the following speech to the Sultan: "You have disfigured my features by cutting off my ears and nose. May God behold this" and raising his eyes to Heaven he appealed to God, expressed contrition and expired. Severing the ears and noses of the youth who resisted the Sultan was a common occurrence. Many were made to carry baskets filled with gobra (cowdung) for three days as a public display of warning to others.

Bowring reports: "Tipu demanded the surrender of the daughters of some of these Christians in order to have them placed in his seraglio, and that, on the refusal of their parents, the latter had their noses, ears and upper lips cut off, and were paraded through the streets on asses, with their faces towards the tails of the animals."

But enough of that. By now you have got an idea of the tribulations and humiliations faced by the ancestors of today's remaining Mangalorean Catholics.

What about the young men? The Bakur Manuscript records: "On four occasions the young able-bodied Christian men were thus drafted for the Army…. One hundred men were formed into one company, four companies into a risala, four risalas into a sufedar, and four sufedars were placed under a bakshi. Out of every company twenty-five men were taken and circumcised at the end of every month. When the wounds were healed, another twenty-five were taken and circumcised, and so on, until the whole company was initiated into Islamism."

These young men formed the Ahmedy Corps, and were placed as a front-line defense against the Marathas and the British.

One poor youth writes of how his soul screamed to God, on seeing his mother and sisters all converted to Islam, married to Muslim men, his nephews and nieces being brought up as Muslims. More poignant, both his mother and sister were pregnant In their wombs were being carried a new generation of Muslims. He writes that when he passed his mother and sisters in the street, their eyes would meet, and he could see the pain and suffering in their tormented souls.

As the Christians settled down in their new existence of slavery in Srirangapatna, they re-organized themselves under the Council of Ten, a secret group to help keep their faith. Tipu specifically banned any political gathering of the existing Christians.

Another manuscript records: "The Christians believing that this tribulation came upon them for their neglect of the Law of God and their religious duties, began to read the Purana with fervor, and to expound it to the illiterate. Some Mohammedans coming to know of this, destroyed the books, but the Christians constructed subterranean refuges to perform religious duties, read the books and strengthened their faith."

Domingo Pinto arranged escapes for money, the rate being Rs 32 for a male and Rs 16 for a female. He however had to fall back on his own skills, when Tipu's guards found him out.

Salu (Salvatore) Pinto was appointed Tipu's Deputy Vizier,

Anthony Saldanha was his House Vhamberlain,

Cajetan (Caitan) Coelho Porob made his escape within a year at Srirangapatna. His brother Dakterob soon followed.

The stubborn Christians were given the most menial tasks, and made to work in the paddy fields, They were underfed, and whenever they got into a fight were immediately imprisoned. The men were completely isolated from any women, the idea being that they would die of old age without creating any new progeny.

Here is one story to illustrate the hardships they bore:

"I am narrating to you what my grand-father told me in almost the same words. There were seven brothers and one sister. The sister died at an early age. All seven brothers were imprisoned. They suffered much because they were not given much food. If they were given one handful of ragi, they were not given salt or anything else. There was nothing to dress, and nothing to cover in the night. With such afflictions six brothers died. My grandfather survived by eating leaves and pieces of leather if available, because he could not sustain the pangs of hunger. But he used to recite the rosary daily, with the rosary in hand."

The Christians suffered this humiliating and subsistence way of life for fifteen long years.

Deliverance at last!

By 1799 the English were consolidating their strengths and were now stationed outside Srirangapatna.

On 4th May 1799, they stormed the fortress, and after a bitter battle, finally breached the town. The battle lasted all day, through the evening and until the fading hours of twilight.

In the oncoming darkness, a lantern was brought out, and Raja Khan, Tipu's servant pointed out the fallen body of Tipu Sultan, sword in hand. His eyes lay open, the body rent by four wounds. The body was still warm. The English took Tipu's body on a palanquin to rest in the palace.

That terrible battle was described by Colonel Wellesley: "Nothing could have exceeded what was done on 4th May. Scarcely a house escaped plunder (by the English and Indian soldiers). In the camp bazaars, jewels of the greatest value, bars of gold and numerous articles of value were offered for sale by the soldiers. In the moats and in the streets over eleven thousand bodies of the slain lay stiffening in the grips of rigor mortis."

To the Kanara Christians this was the deliverance they prayed for. They were finally freed by the British, and could leave.

The Survivors

The holocaust began for the Mangalorean Christians on 24th Feb 1784, and ended on 4th May 1799. 15 years of torture and ridicule and abject degradation by the Muslim hordes of Tipu Sultan.

In those 15 terrible years the population of the Mangalorean Christians was almost totally extinguished. Of the 60,000 Mangaloreans taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians. The rest were either dead (20,000 died on the march to Srirangapatna), 21,000 women (married or single) were converted to Islam, 9,000 young men were circumcised and converted, and the old men and women perished or naturally passed away. At the time of deliverance in 1799, the entire Mangalorean Christian community was reduced to a mere 11,000 persons.

The next year, 1800, the British took a census of the country. Out of a total of 396,672 people living in Mangalore, the Christian population was 10,877, residing in 2,545 homes.

Of the entire population of the empire of Tipu Sultan, stretching from south of Goa down to Wypeen (Cochin), the total Christians numbered 21,854 souls.

The Archbishop of Goa wrote in 1800, "It is notoriously known in all Asia and all other parts of the globe of the oppression and sufferings experienced by the Christians in the Dominion of the King of Kanara, during the usurpation of that country by Tipu Sultan from an implacable hatred he had against them who professed Christianity."

But where to go? All their belongings had disappeared. Their houses were confiscated. Their families were gone. Others cultivated their paddy fields. But at least they were alive! And they would start all over again.

Tipu was anything but a saint, he was just like one of those muslim rogue rulers who were hell bent upon imposing islam in India. Christians in india were legacy of illegal rule of portugese and spanish and they should be brought back to hindu fold, and Tipu helped in doing this. Dont project christians as victims, those converted souls themselves were victim of Portuguese and spanish inquisition. which was hellbent to purge india of hindu islamic heritage and bring pope rule in India!

Undoubtly a great man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.214.154 (talk) 05:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I was deeply saddened and angered at the same time upon reading these monstrous calamities and degradations that befell my ancestors. It makes me wish that i could travel back in time, and annhilate that tyrant before this happened. By the way, which book did you take this from? I am looking forward to purchase it. Joyson Noel (talk) 14:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thats the fact that converted christians in India always feel affinity towards their coreligionists colonia masters. they always favored british rule!! - Untilwhen1 20:58, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The British were not our masters. I can't say about your ancestors, but i'm pretty sure about mine and i take great offense in you saying that. It's understandable that many Christians (including the Mangalorean Catholics) favored British rule in India. The British did not bother the Christians due to their faith and left them alone. Also, British rule brought them prosperity. Every community is self serving, including the Christian community. If you were a Christian and had to choose between accepting British rule or that of a religious mad man like Tippu Sultan hell bent on destroying them, which one would you choose? A reasonable person would choose the former, instead of the latter. The Indian Christians were hated and persecuted under both Hindu and Muslim rule in many parts of India, primarily because of the prevailing hatred of the British, Portugese and Dutch, and because they were viewed as a potential fifth column. In the great revolt of 1857, many Indian Christians and their families were exterminated. So, in light of all these facts, it should not come as a surprise that many Indian Christians favored British rule. However, there were also quite a few Christian freedom fighters who played an important role in the Indian freedom movement like Tristao de Braganza Cunha, Joseph Baptista, P. J. Sebastian, N. M. Perera, etc. Goan Catholics cheered the entry of Indian troops after the commencement of Operation Vijay in 1961. See this. Furthermore, it was not the Christians who divided India, but the Muslims of India in the form of the Muslim league. One third of our country became foreign territory to us after 15 August, 1947. This was too self-interest on the part of the Muslim community. Yet, i don't hold this against them. Human beings are selfish and only look after their own interests. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 21:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

This hate filled story regarding Tipu was just created by britishers as a part of policy "divide and rule", just to take over more and more land in India. Untilwhen1 21:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

(smirk) Right! The stories about the captivity that have passed down my family from generation to generation are also fabrications. So, are the accounts of many reputed Indian historians. Stop defending a monster, just because he is of your faith. My ancestors did go through the horrifying 15 year captivity. You can either be honest and recognize that fact, or be dishonest and continue defending that criminal. Your choice! Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 21:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

religious persecution

I have noted that this heading has been sourced within any proper reference and someone is using blog sites as their reference....bcoz anything can be said in blog sites...i will be removing the heading within a week if no reference is given...as indian history has never admitted to any crimes whatsover on tipu sultan....

Mujeerkhan15:20, 11 June 2006 AEST

There are at least some references i can find online (and remember from other sources) about Tipu donating money to renovate temples, giving other temples land and jewellery etc. The Sharada temple in Sringeri for one - which is also the monastery of the Sringeri Shankaracharya. A series of about 30 letters written in Kannada, correspondence between Tipu Sultan and the Sringeri Shankaracharya exist, documenting this (and Tipu even comes up with a sanskrit quote about evildoers committing crimes with a www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=61&category=8&issue=11 .. and this is further corroborated by an article in Tattvaloka, the magazine published by the Sringeri monastery - http://www.tattvaloka.com/publications.htm for more. What is funny is that the temple was apparently ransacked by Maratha soldiers in 1791-92 - unique twist there, hindu soldiery that consciously used several obvious trappings of hinduism including the saffron bhagwa flag, and that is venerated by a hindu right wing party the Shiv Sena, pillaging probably the most eminent hindu monastery in south india.

srs 17:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Suresh (member srs ) , thank you very much for providing valuable information.

Mujeerkhan17:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a cite before making edits like "Even so there is some evidence that his armies destroyed many Hindu temples in the south part of India.". Which temples did his troops demolish and where?

Comments from VS

At the Madhoor Temple in Kasaragod district of Kerala, there is a sword mark on the roof under which it is clearly mentioned that this was the act of tipu sultan.

Please refer wikipedia article on "Mangalorean Konkani" which has mentioned about forced conversion to muslim by Tipu

I could also find a lot of internet sites including published magazine articles which agrees that Tipu has made generous contributions to some temples. And yet Prisoners of war were given choice of either embracing muslim religion or to rot in his jails and most of them accepted the first option.

End of Comments from VS

Though i am from pakistan I have heard stories about Tipu Sultan since as i was a kid. Tipu saw no difference from from his hindu and muslims subjects, he contributed jewels, cash for temples. Once Mahatma gandhi said " Tipu for the great Waqfs (trusts) he instituted for Hindu temples. His palaces stood close to Venkataraman Srinivasa and Sri Ranganath temples. He specially praises the Mysore ruler for the famous saying that ‘one day of a lion’s life is better than 100 years life of a jackal.’ [1] To top it all, Tipu Sultan was also solicitous of the Brahmin clergy of his state and sought their cooperation - even requested for special prayers invoking the blessings of deities. His letters to Jagatguru Swami of Srinagrimat in 1791 are the proofs of his excellent relationship with the Hindu subjects. Some 30 letters of Tipu are preserved in the archaeological department of India to vouchsafe for this claim.

In pakistan, we respect him very much and have named a navy ship called PNS Tipu sultan [http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Navy%20Pics/PNSTippuSultan_AmazonClassFrigate_001_PakistaniDefence.com.jpg End of comment], monuments, roads in memory of this great freedom fighter of the sub continent. And yet some people say that he was a 'bad man'. And i have heard that indian history is rewriting on tipu sultan ( if i am right). Remember it was British and politics which divided our countries.

Hassan19:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Even though the Government of Pakistan named a naval vessel after Tippu Sultan for wrong reasons, I proudly share your views and sentiments. Kanchanamala 04:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The government of Pakistan named a vessel after Tipu Sultan because they understood and appreciated who he was, a despot and a medieval Islamist, which is the kind of world they want everybody to live in. Only in India will murderers be worshipped by their own victims. Hkelkar 04:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I share the view that Tippu Sultan was a good Muslim Indian, apparently you don't. Kanchanamala 05:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Tipu Sultan was typical Islamic despotic a bit like Saddam Hussein but much worse. A temple smasher and killer of Hindus, this evil snake was killed by the Britsh for their own reasons.

Tipu was barbaric.

Provide some evidence in this regard but pls do not use blog sites or propoganda sites as evidence. Since I spend my schooling in mysore I have come across several hindu temples which got funds from tipu sultan ex nanjangud temple...and the best example to which i can give to is the temple in his Srirangapatnam fort itself! and also remember that a major part of his army were hindus. People like you will defenetly change Indian history.

Mujeerkhan 15:20, 10 June 2006 AEST

Care to provide documentation?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:37, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Needs work.

Was "Tipu" his given name?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 04:38, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

title

I have known that guy from history better under name Tippu Sahib. Should he be under that? 217.140.193.123 8 July 2005 16:54 (UTC)

Can the above write please provide evidence for his claims? Tipu Sultan was very much a tolerant and just ruler of his people. Had he been as you state then his own Hindu Subjects wouldn't have fought and died under his cause our of sheer loyalty. There are many baised books which claim what you claim, BUT TILL DATE they contain no actual reliable sources for this explicitly false statement. I would also request that that part also be removed from the article seeing as even Jawarlal Nehru no less looked up to his staunch loyalty to his people and his strong patriotism. He was a ruler of a type we sadly no longer see in todays 'civilised' world.

Raja

Nonsense phrase

To quote from the article: "A rocket carrying about one pound of powder could travel almost 1,000 yards. In contrast, rockets in Europe not being iron cased, could not take large chamber pressures and as a consequence, were not capable of reaching distances anywhere close to a mile." But a mile is 1760 yards, so what is being asserted here? Too Old 05:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Weight of the rocket is about 2kg. With about 1kg of propellant. 50mm in dia about 250mm length, the range performance is reported 900mts to 1.5 km. [2] Wisesabre 06:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

So the rockets had about 1kg (2.2lb) of powder, not 1 lb. With this charge their range was between 6/10 mile (900 meters) and 9/10 mile (1.5km), probably in excess of 1000 yards (6/10 mile). The contemporary European rockets possibly could match this, since their casings weighed less, so the same amount of powder might have driven them as far. The comparison is indecisive. Does anyone know of an experiment to test the relative ranges of the two rocket types using the same amount of powder? The American National Anthem refers to "the rockets' red glare" during the War of 1812, implying military useage. At any rate the article might be in error. Too Old 02:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The battles against Tipu Sultan inspired Congreve to develop his Congreve rockets for the British Army, and their later use is mentioned in The Star Spangled Banner. The contemporary western versions (contemporary with those used by Tipu Sultan, before Congreve) were not so powerful, as this article says. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Mother’s name

Fatima is an old Arabic name (The Prophet’s daughter’s name was Fatima), so that would the mother’s given name.

Fakher-an-Nissa is Arabic and literally means Pride of Women; this would be a sort of title. You can either use her title by its own or call her: Fakher-an-Nissa Fatima bint FATHER_NAME.

I hope this information is useful, because as the article stands now it seems her exact name is not known! --DelftUser 19:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Religious persecution

Tipu seemed to be a great secularist. There is a Ranganatha swamy Temple standing right in the ruins of Srirangapatnam. Pity such a great soldier had to go like that. --Hydman 06:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The bit on persecution is a straight lift from the link Tipu Hero or villain given below- verbatim, am deleting the same as it has copyvio issues. Not even getting into whether site is accurate or not. ( seems to be focused on reviewing books that support the right wing point of view). Haphar 12:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I come across this link which states that ASI found some manuscripts,which record the destruction of temples my Tipu in different places.I think we need to revise this section to include persecution of hindus,christins in kerala,goa and karnataka.[3]AumprakashReddy

Did you actually read the entire article instead of quoting a single line from it out of context? srs 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Plz explain what is out of context here AumprakashReddy 04:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Help wanted in dealing with a Tipu Sultan spammer

Help wanted in dealing with a Tipu Sultan spammer

Every so often a spammer using an IP address that starts with 64.228.225. spams links to bogus web sites. I have tracked down and reverted all I could find, but I'm getting a little sick of tracking all these articles on my watchlist (it's up to 263 pages by now). Can I ask the regular, frequent editors of this article to keep an eye out for this person? If they hit again, please revert the edit and warn the spammer. If you have the time, check out what other edits they made that day and revert them as well -- or just let me know and I'll do it. The link they like to add to this article is

[http: // www angelfire com/co/begumnoor/tipu2 html Tipu Sultan Article by Jean Overton Fuller].

The real point of the link is to build search engine rankings for the commercial links at the bottom of the page; the same spamdexer is linking similarly bogus pages for Hindu mystical figures and U.S. country music stars -- all with the same links at the bottom of the page.

The spammer also recently created an account, User:Borgengruft.

For more info, see:

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive117#Link-spamming from someone in the IP address block 64.228.225.xxx
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive118#Update -- now using Borgengruft?
• User:A. B./To do list#Abusers

Thanks for your help.--A. B. 07:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

To Tippy Fans

To Tippy sultyn Fans again, who are defending that he was not a muslim fanatic, must know that what right did hydra ali and tippy sultan had to cease power, they call people who eat the masters given food and betray them as Namak Haram, they were just that, mYsore was doing extremely well without them and did exceptionally well after them, as usual most of his armys commanders were muslims and when they defeated Travancore maharaja they converted thousands of Nairs to Islam by force, and he had links with turkey, persia and other muslim countries. About his contributions to temples, he was not giving his grandparents money but the money of the Mysore Kingdom, the maharajas money,its not a big deal, i am sure he would have given hundred times more money to the madrasaas and mosques, he built tombs and mosques in mysore using the stolen money of the Maharajas, so his fans what ever u thik he is he was definately a traitor and muslim fanatic. our so called secular leaders have made a hero out of a Villan. vgowda

Dude! care 2 provide da documentation n u can type watever ye want in ur brains but not here...Mysorebhai 20:30, 14 September, 20:30, UTC

vgowda can be more refined but he has a point. religious persecution by tipu is a well known, atleast much debated fact. also his anti kannada stance is recent news and references can be found in any karnataka newspaper of the last couple of weeks or month. and google for tipu's religious persecution am sure you will find lots of hits. Sarvagnya 01:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Tipu was a hero. A great man. The rabble-rousing Hindutavavadis have no other work but to slander non-Hindu people. Bastards, first learn English, then come here. I think this Sarvagnya, Vgowda and other Tipu haters are all sockpuppets of the Hindutvavadi puppet master. Don't make a mess here in Tipu article, you fools.

--Tipu Hero 04:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I learned English already. fool=flower right? phulBakaman _Bakatalk 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

To Jehadi Fanatics of Islam

First of all Mysorebhai and Tippy hero, mind ur language dont show off ur culture and upbringing to the whole world and ur jehadism and fanaticsm will not run here, truth hurts sometimes but u cannot supress the truth . Tipu was a muslim fanatic and was Anti Kannada and ur shouting here will not change history, so go and put whatever u want in Ladens or Saddam hussains articles ur current heros, ok. --vgowda

So if we can put some credible references to this it would be great. Then it can be referenced and put in the article and there would be no need to get into discussions over this. Everyone on this page is not in Karnatka and would not have access to the kannada news articles. Haphar 11:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

So true. Only acceptable citations will help.Kanchanamala 04:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Fanatics

I have provides the links to tipu being Anti kannada, but somebody is trying to protray hima as secular when he was not, and they keep writing about sringeri which has been mentioned already. --vgowda

Are you your own momma's son??? If Tippu was to be the way you are accusing him of being, not one of you would have been alive or being a Hindu or christian in the first place. Thank God that your ancestors were in the benevolent rule of the great Sultan!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Getisla (talk • contribs) 00:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Tipu The Greatest

Tipu Sultan was certainly the greatest. He was a great nationalist. He kicked away the Mysore kings and became a GREAT SULTAN !!!!! He brought the great language URDU to foolish Karnatak people speaking old bland Cannad language. The beauty of Urdu language floored many Cannad people and they adopted Urdu and became Muslim. Tipu didnt force anyone to become Muslim. He was a great king. He did the great work of making "Kafiristan Karnatak" into "Dar-Ul-Karnatistan". Thank him for the riches he brought to Caranatak. Otherewise what were these Cannada people doing. Poor people were slaves to the Marathas and Nizam. After Tipu, the Mysore Rajas again became slaves, this time of European British. But still Carnatic government dont make justice. Urdu should be made Carnatik state's official language. Fools, stop badmouthing the gr8 Tipu Sultan.

ALL HAIL THE GREAT TIPU SULTAN !!!! DOWN WITH THE CANNADDA FANATICS !!!!

Tipu Beat Cannad

This is not helping anyone. If you could keep running down other communities it would help. Tipu does not become great by degenerating other communities or language. I think it takes away from his greatness to have someone run others down.Let's be fact based, please give your sources for your claims, and go easy on the aggression. Haphar 15:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

No personal attacks (NPA)

Users vgowda and Tipu Hero pls dont make NPA on other members or i will be forced to make a action against you and if you folks have any issues pls discuss here instead of editing the main article. And other members please put your differences aside and also please sign in.

Mujeerkhan 20:55, 23 september 2006 (UTC)

So ridiculous that it defies reason

The very claim that Tipu Sultan is the "Father of Modern Rocket Science" is laughable.Any reasonable person viewing this article would immediately see this claim for the absurd level of jingoism it touts. As a practising physicist, I find this statement so ludicrous that the only words I can think of to describe it are Wolfgang Pauli' famous "NOT EVEN WRONG". It is pure junk science at it's finest.

First of all, the very claim that Tipu used "rockets" as weapons of war is unsourced and dubious enough to warrant a special mention in my professor's classes on spotting pseudoscience. I've seen the Doordarshan TV show by that Shahbaz Khan guy where they showed this rocket stuff and, even at age 12, I could see it for the nonsense it really was.

Tipu Sultan was no scientist and he did not have the background in basic empiricism that led the ancient Chinese to discover primitive rockets in the first place (and even THEY used it for entertaintment, not as weapons). Even if we buy into this rockets crap, it would not be Tipu Sultan who get's the credit, but the minister or worker or somebody who figured it out under his command. Do we credit Eisenhower with being the "Father of the Atomic Bomb", or do we reserve the credit to Oppenheimer, Einstein, Feynman et al?????

To make this claim is, quite frankly, insulting to the years of experimental research work that led to the first rocket engines developed by Tsiolkovsky (the REAL father of rocket science). Please provide VERIFIABLE and RELIABLE sources per WP:Reliable Sources that attest to the claim that Tipu even had access to "rockets" and then please change the title to reflect a more balanced section (assuming that you people can find any proof of this "rockets" fable).Hkelkar 06:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, User:Nobleeagle pointed me to the ref from where the "Father of Rocket Science" balderdash was plagiarized. I also found some slightly credible refs that state that rockets were used by Marathas and by Tipu (though frankly, calling those glorified firecrackers "rockets" is still pretty ridiculous). While I stand corrected about the use of rockets, the section was plagiarized copyvio from the article. Plus,calling him the "father" of rocketry is pretty laughable so I merged the section with an earlier one where the rocketry thing was better discussed.Hkelkar 07:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The designers of modern state-of-the-art airplanes do not belittle the earlest attempts made at making a craft fly. Let us also not belittle the early efforts in India made to use the principle of jet propulsion in warfare.Kanchanamala 04:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Dubious assertion(s)

"He was a noted linguist, patriot and a freedom fighter"

If he was such a noted linguist then what are his linguistic works? Anyone care to cite some? If he spoke multiple languages that does not make him a linguist. Many people in India were (still are) multilingual. Shivaji spoke Portuguese, for instance. Rani Laxmibai spoke Persian as well as Marathi. Did that make her a "linguist"? Hardly.

Where do you find Shivaji spoke Portuguese.This will make an interesting reading.I would love to read about it.Secondly, Persian was the court language in the time of Mughal empire in India, as late as 1980's - Persian phrases were used in independent India's courts.I have a Court manual lying with me which translates these Persian phrases into Hindi.Knowing Persian in India at that time is like learning English at present time in the Indian context.TerryJ-Ho

"Patriot" is a POV claim. Patriot to what? India? India as a nation did not even EXIST back then so of what was he a patriot? Mysore/Srirangapatnam/whatever? That's not patriotism, it'c called "Tribal Loyalty". I mean, is Richard the Lionheart referred to as a "patriot" even though he "loved" England? Is Charlemagne referred to as a "patriot" even though he "loved" France? What about the German Kaisers? Are they called "Patriots"??? What about Shaka Zulu? Is he referred to as a "Patriot"? Then why Tipu Sultan?

"Freedom Fighter"??? Whose freedom was he fighting for? Indians? Indians were hardly "free", living under Kings, Rajas, Badshahs,Sultans, Mansabdaars and Nizams is not "freedom".Plus, the Brits hadn't conquered the country yet so he wasn't fighting for freedom from the Brits but to keep them from taking away his kingdom. Tipu Sultan clearly had no conception of democracy as we understand it today so by what stretch of the imagination was he a "Freedom Fighter"?????Let's keep the jingiosm out of wikipedia shall we?

"We can replace this statement with "He was a notable ruler and a capable and inventive fighter". That's good enough I think. Please discuss.Hkelkar 09:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelekar You should then thank the Mughals and British , specially Aurangzeb for giving India a sense of nationhood by bringing it under a centralised rule failing which you would have been a citizen of a remote state of Bengalistan forget the giant India it is at present but then it is easier forgeting that living in the state of Texas TerryJ-Ho

Thank Aurangzeb the mass murderer? So much so that even Marxist historians admit to his atrocities? What's next? Are you going to ask me to thank Hitler too?Hkelkar 22:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Quoting lies hundred times does not make it truth..Kelkar..This page is replete with Hindu Chauvinist propoganda who see the entire Indian History with a jandiced anti Muslim and anti Islam stance.The historians (apart from a few Hindutva)till now do not mention of any persecution of Hindus at the hands of Aurangzeb except that of implementing the Poll Tax - Jaziya (literally meaning Protection Tax)on Hindus which is the equivalent of the Zakat Tax (2.5%)on Muslims that was also collected by the King.If a few temples or religious places of any faith were ruined by their armies it was more as a consequence of political association of these places with the rulers of these kingdoms - even the great Hindu King Shivaji destroyed the Sringeri Mutt - that Tipu got rebuilt - similarly Aurangzeb - by his firman attached many villages to Hindu temples.If Aurangzeb was Hitler - Delhi would not have an Aurangzeb road on his name in modern India. TerryJ-Ho

Under the reign of Aurangzeb, every possible effort was made to force Islam on India, and to desecrate Hindu places of worship. Has Delhi really named any road after him? I know of Akbar Road and Bahadurshah Zafar Marg. Among the Mughal invaders, Aurangzeb was probably the worst.Kanchanamala 04:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• An interesting article

Oh really??So the sources like Achilles Meersman, C.K Kareem and William Lee-Warner are "Hindu Fascists"? I know that Islamist terrormongers were delusional but could not perceive that the obsessive compulsive schizophrenia would extend this far. This is what happens when one reads too many al-Qaeda propaganda pamphlets I suppose.What's next? Anybody who exposes your disgusting anti-Hindu hate and bile is a "Hindu Chauvinist"? Yes, you're right about one thing. Quoting lies a hundred time does not make it truth indeed! I have sources that attest that Tipu Sultan committed genocide and the mediator in the AMA page agrees with me. Don't like it? Tough noogies!Let's take it to arbitration then. It would be a pleasure to observe your reaction after what scholarly admins say about my sources and your flagrant WP:NOR above.Hkelkar 22:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

To protect Hinduism from the onslaught of Islam or Christianity is not Hindu chauvinism or "Fascism".Kanchanamala 00:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Brainwashing!

User Hkelkar has a long history of meddling with Indian Buddhist Movement, Lalu Prasad Yadav, Votebank, Godhra Train Burning, Bombay Riots, with a majority on critisicing minority communities and can be branded as a rasict, extremists and does not have a place to say in wikipedia and should be banned. Muslims and hindus see tipu sultan as a saint and people of all faiths visit his grave...have you been there, then you will understand who he was. people with a negative attitude towards tipu sultan cant swallow the truth and probably cant digest it. Naziakhanum 20:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can;t swallow the wikipedia principles of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NPA and WP:Civility then maybe you should take a break from wikipedia mr new account holder.Hkelkar 10:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

User Hkelkar if you want to edit anything on this article then please post your comments here.THNX Naziakhanum 20:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, another personal attack.Hkelkar

Pls dont edit anything in the article, if you have any issues then pls discuss here. And by the the i am notvandalising. I know WP:NPOV and Mr. "If you can;t swallow the wikipedia principles of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NPA " you cant say that to me and lol that amounts to personal attack and as you said before it is not me who should take a break. thnxNaziakhanum 20:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You made characterizations above that clearly are personal attacks. Until my issues are resolved, I am within my rights per wikipedia policy to make markups in the article accordingly. Plus, for a new user, you sure seem to know a lot about wikipedia. Perhaps an RfC might be in order.Hkelkar 10:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Many comments are unsourced in the article and I am ALLOWED to REMOVE UNSOURCED COMMENTS per WP:V and WP:Reliable Sources. AS A COURTESY, I am marking them up instead. Removing those markups IS vandalism and justification for arbitration if necessary.Hkelkar 10:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Naziakhanum has a valid point. It would be useful to discuss here before editing anything in the article.Kanchanamala 05:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Mr.Hkelkar or Kela 'G' me lekar...Hehehe, anyways. You dont worry, you dont frown coz we all know you are another chaddiwallah in the gown!! Keep you extremist views to yourself, maligning Tipu's history is equal to maligning India's history, so BEWARE!! And you traitors did not spare the father of the nation M.K.Gandhi himself, .Hence, we know your intentions and we are aware that you will sell even your mothers for your evil designs.

Hi all, i have found many articles that portays tipu as tolerant to all faiths [[4]], [[5]], President of india and Mahatma Gandhion tipu[[6]], [[7]], [[8]]. kings were unjust to thier people and sold down their own rivers for thier greed (as stated in "hindu" ) [[9]], tipu on relegion [[10]], hindus in tipu sultan army [[11]], karnataka government against minister remarks Tipu Sultan made lavish gifts to Hindu temples particularly to Shri Rangnatha Temple located inside the Fort of Shrirangapatnam at Mysore. Tipu was an enlightened ruler and was secular in outlook. If he crushed the Hindus of Coorg, the Christians of Mangalore and the Nayars of Malabar that was to due to the fact they wished to undermine his authority by joining the British. He did not spare the Mopillas of Malabar or the Mahadevi Muslims or Nawabs of Sawanur or Nizam whenever he suspected such tendencies among them" [[12]]. WHAT WOULD U DO TO TRAITORS who joined the british or pakistanis agianst a plot agianst india would you not destroy them.

Hindus in tipu sultan army [[13]], Sringeri was not the only holy place, which received the patronage of Tipu but Lakshmikantha temple, Narayanaswamy temple, Narasimha temple and the Gangadhareswara temple recieved donations [[14]], Subbaraya Chetty on tipu [[15]] , srirangapatam temple onlinedarshan.com/sparks_of_wisdom/rituals/tipu_sultan.htm - 11k S Chandrashekar has your answers on weather tipu was the good guy or a bad guy [[16]]..AND THE LIST GOES ON

A few website [[17]], [[18]] cant prove a thing! and remember majority (well known indians) of indians dont agree that tipu was a tryant but rather a tolerant man on all faiths.

Mysorebhai 11:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your argument is irrelevant, although your sources are not and seem okay. "A few" is not outweighed by "many". Please read wikipedia policies instead of nationalistic biases.If you wish to add a rebuttal to the claim of Tipu Sultan's alleged genocidal mentality then, by all means, cite your sources in the article per WP:Reliable Sources but you CANNOT remove SOURCED edits as that would be vandalism. The opinion of the majority of Indians is also unimportant. Wikipedia is about Verifiability, and all of my edits are Verifiable. If your edits are verifiable then good. Pu them in and you will have my eternal thanks. Remove MY verifiable edits and that is vandalism.Hkelkar 12:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and sabrang and Pakistanlink are unnacceptable sources as sabrang is a Fundamentalist Muslim source (extremist, violates WP:Reliable Sources and Pakistanlink is nationalistic. Webites like Pakistanlink also says that Aurangzeb was a great ruler and justifies his slaughter of Hindus).Hkelkar 12:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Milligazette is also a fundamentalist Muslim source. Partisan and unreliable. They have made several racist and anti-Semitic remarks against Israel, making them an extremist site and not falling unser WP:Reliable Sources.Hkelkar 12:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your "Institute for Objective Studies" is as objective as the Islamic Thinkers Society.Hkelkar 12:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelakar - do not establish your own rules on Wikipedia.You seem to state all Muslim sources are unreliable and "fundamentalist"..on what grounds?? You never care to explain..TerryJ-Ho 22:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

All but 2 of your sources are partisan and highly unreliable (the webindia one is okay). Surely you can find non-partisan sources like historians (instead of terrorists) and academics instead of mujahids. This Irfan Habib guy seems okay. Try to find HIS book on Tipu Sultan. That would be very good.Hkelkar 12:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that these sources of yours are okay and you may cite those:

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/itihas/tippu.htm

http://www.tipusultan.org/biog2d.htm

This seems like a particularly good source.Why don;t you use this more???

http://sify.com/itihaas/fullstory.php?id=13375042 http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2002/08/23/stories/2002082300080900.htm

These sources are good. You may use these. All other sources are practically Osama's pawns and should be immediately removed per WP:Reliable Sources.Hkelkar 12:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask you to refrain from terms like "Osama's pawns".These are denigrating and highly Uncivil TerryJ-Ho 22:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Pot, kettle, black.Hkelkar 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Lots of boiling heat for quite a while eh! the sources provided by Mysorebhai are really worth reading and can be used in editing the article. Why a sudden "Controversy regarding religious persecution by Tipu Sultan" and "Contemporary controversy over Tipu Sultan" .And Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, D.H. Shankaramurthy is a former kar sevak which are aginst islam, so the point is simple why listen to such folks who are against a culture.

Voice of dharma is also a fundamentalist hindu source. Partisan and unreliable. They have made several racist and anti-Semitic remarks against islam, making them an extremist site and not falling unser [[WP:Reliable Sources]

The points are simple as milligazette is fundamentalist Muslim source so is Voice of dharma is also a fundamentalist hindu source. D.H. Shankaramurthy remarks are against wiki. Further more u cant comment anyone as Islamic Thinkers Society as they are WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NPA. As per wiki rules users Naziakhanum must apologise to Hkelkar and vise versa and Hkelkar must do the same with Mysorebhai.I feel like a teacher who mediates between kids! I am editing the article as it was before, in the new edit will lead to many conflicts (as mojority are opposed to new addition).And if anyone is editing I will be glad to complain to wiki, which in turn will take appropiate action against users.

Mujeerkhan 00:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Er might want to read up on wikipedia policy.Criticism of Islam is not anti-Semitism as that only applies to Jews, not muslims. Don;t try to muddle the issue plz.

Plus, there are entire countries in the muslim world that massacre non-muslims and spread hate against them (Pakistan against Hindus, Saudi Arabia against Christians, Iran against Jews etc.) but many of their sources are considered legitimate because specific sources may or may not be extremist.It is clear that voi, partisan though it may be, is NOT extremist whereas milligazette clearly is extremist. Look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Partisan.2C_religious_and_extremist_websites

I have to warn you as you are making remarks against a particular relegion Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. . Mysorebhai10:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

So have you.Hkelkar 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

“ Widely acknowledged extremist or even terrorist groups, whether of a political, religious, racist, or other character, should never be used as sources for Wikipedia, except as primary sources, that is to say they may be used in articles discussing the opinions of that organization. Even then they should be used with great caution, and should be supported by other sources ”

Does anyone acknowledge voi as a terrorist group? Any government body? Any UN organisation? Interpol, UNPKF? Anybody? Now do you want me to list the number of governments and orgs that regard as terrorists al-Qaeda, Osama bin-Laden, Mahmoud Ahmadinezhad, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizbul Mujahiddeen and all of the other people and orgs that milligazette/imc/whoever support?Hkelkar 20:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Are RSS and VHP not doing the same in india. Mysorebhai10:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Neither of them are recognized as terrorists. Guess who is.Hkelkar 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, voi does not evoke any hate speech whereas milligazette and others clearly do evoke hate speech, making them extremist websites. and vod not so, per WP:Reliable Sources, voi can be quoted with qualification (which I did) and milligazette can be quoted with LIMITED qualification, which they were NOT.Hkelkar 19:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Partisan, religious and extremist websites of Wikipedia:Reliable sources says that "The websites and publications of political parties and religious groups should be treated with caution, although neither political affiliation nor religious belief are in themselves reasons not to use a source".

NPOVReligious bias, including bias in which one religious viewpoint is given preference over OTHERS ,moreover VOD is a vanity press which spread extremists ideas like milligazette. one more thing i have not put milligazette in the article so there is no point in arguing about it.

See,all the other members agree to what i have said.Moreover you have edited the citation which were put forth by user Mujeerkhan

Mysorebhai10:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Brindavan Gardens

Is it verifiable that Tipu was involved in the construction of these gardens? I thought they date from Krishnaraja Wodeyar IV. --BostonMA 12:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The Krishnarajasagara Dam and the Brindavan Gardens go together. Kanchanamala 06:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of fact and cn tags

Mujeerkhan, in your most recent revert, you removed a number of fact and citation needed tags. That may not have been your intent, you may have simply wanted to make other changes, and the fact and citation needed tags were deleted as a side effect. I truly question some of the assertions made on this page. That does not mean that they are false, however, I would like to see some verifiable sources.

For example, it is claimed that Tipu was responsible for the establishment of a church. That would be an interest fact given that Tipu was a Muslim. If it is indeed the case, then it should be possible to produce a reference from a reliable source. Further, if he did establish a church, it would seem that the name of the church would be something appropriate to include in an encyclopedia article. What was the name of the church?

Similarly, it is claimed that Tipu was involved with the construction of Brinddavan Gardens. Again, I am not claiming that is false. However, I was under the impression that the gardens were constucted upon completion of the KRS dam. It may be the case that there were gardens existing there before the dam was constructed. But it would be nice to see a source substantiating that fact.

Please respond to the issues I have raised. Sincerely, --BostonMA 14:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone has made a mistake in editing and its not the gardens but construction of the dam "This dam is being constructed by the Khudadad Government... Any one brings under cultivation any uncultivated land and grows crops, vegetables or fruits by irrigating it with water from this dam will be given all encouragement and concessions.. the newly cultivated land shall belong to the cultivator and his descendants.. and no one shall dispossess him".-- Inscription on the foundation stone on K.R.S. Dam on the Cauvery River. [[19]]

I have a doubt on the church but will try to figure it out...cheers Mujeerkhan 14:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found a article on the mysore church [20] which was built hazrath Tipu Sultan's French allies,but it does not say the name of the church but clearly mentions why it was built and where! Mujeerkhan 12:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I note that the article to which you linked has a date of August 12, 2006, and it does not list its references. I therefore took the liberty to look at Wikipedia's own article from August 7 [21] and noted the very strong resemblence between the two. It seems not beyond the realm of possibility that the article you cited took its information from Wikipedia. (I have seen that happen a number of times before). I would be very much more convinced if you could show a reference to Tippu establishing a church that gives some sort of "trail of responsibility". That is, a reference that gives its own references, or at leasts names a reputable scholar as the source. Again, I am not saying the information is incorrect, only that I am not convinced that the majority of experts in the field, in this case historians, would give credence to this story. --BostonMA 14:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Jacobin club

The present ref does not say that Tipu founded the Jacobin club, only that he was a member.Hkelkar 02:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In the article it clearly states as hazrath Tipu Sultan as a founding member and not a member! there were 59 early members of which hazrath Tipu Sultan was one of them. Is a there a difference between a founding member ( might be tipu as it was the very beginning of the club in mysore) and a member,could you please explain.

Mujeerkhan 12:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish. Nowhere in either of the references is the word "founder" even mentioned.Hkelkar 05:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What do mean "rubbish" after the efforts i have made in the improvements of the article. oh "founder" is not given the sources which i have provide but its said in the article of hazrath tipu and we have to check who made the error. I have made so many corrections for the errors in the article and for quite a while you have been telling me whats "wrong" and whats "correct" instead of helping me out. is this the way you treat other wiki members for thier contributions.

Mujeerkhan 17:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I am perfectly within my rights to point out gibberish when it is there. Since it is a comment on content, not on contributor, it is neither incivility nor a personal attack. The fact remains that 90% of the article is balderdash, hooey, jive, bakwaas, drek,and other similar such descriptions from any number of languages that anyone can think of. What's more. the edits are colored by the worst case of religious/nationalist fundamentalism I have ever seen on wikipedia so far. Any reasonably intelligent person viewing this article would keel over and die of laughter at the obvious propaganda being touted here. This does not help the credibility of wikipedia as a legitimate source of objective information.If something is not done about this I am going to have to request for full administrator arbitration here.Hkelkar 08:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Mujeer has done quite a reasonable effort in "correcting the errors" inspite of his efforts he is indirectly being " personnel attacks from Hkelkar. As stated before Hkelkar is himself trying to colour the article with his own religious/nationalist fundamentalism. And every intelligent person viewing the article can see that Hkelkar wants to run the article on his ideologies. we should request the administrator to ban the user.

Naziakhanum13:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"A study of similar Maratha rockets (at the Battle of Panipat[9] (1761), the British saw salvos of up to 2,000 fired simultaneously against them) at the Royal Woolwich Arsenal led to the publication of A Concise Account of the Origin and Progress of the Rocket System in 1804 by William Congreve, son of the arsenal's commandant. Congreve rockets find mention in the Star Spangled Banner." has no basis to be in the article as it is way out of the topic, any intelligent person would agree with that. The source provided says no year as of 1761 and the source has no words of "rockets" but it says fine brass gun!

Naziakhanum14:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

One more thing, what were the British doing in the third battle of panipat when it was fought between marathas and the afghans. the British saw salvos of up to 2,000 fired simultaneously against them, I PRESUME they meant Tipu and not Marathas Naziakhanum14:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hkelkar, Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Mysorebhai18:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Since I did comment on content and not on contributor, this warning is bogus and, in on itself, a personal attack. I am reporting this immediately.Hkelkar 23:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this not NPOV

1. No one can refer a user with Islamic Thinkers Society which is linked with terrorism activities. 2. cant tell a user efforts as "rubbish" with the hard work he has done to the article, infact which amounts to personal attack! 3. "Plus, there are entire countries in the muslim world that massacre non-muslims and spread hate against them (Pakistan against Hindus, Saudi Arabia against Christians, Iran against Jews etc.)" this also amounts to personal attacks on a relegion which is indirectly said to a user.

Pls explain why each of the obove "comment on content and not on contributor" does not amount to personal attack on a user.

Mysorebhai11:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

None of what I said was not directed at any particular user,bbut to the content so it does not amount to a personal attack.If an editor chooses to personally identify with his content then it is his problem and he should see a psychiatrist as this is a mental disorder. Try and prove that any of my statements were an attack on a religion. The fact remains that every single thing that I said was correct and supportable by evidence. The CONTENT of the article is so hopelessly fundamentalist that it pretty much shoots the credibility of wikipedia straight to the ninth circle of purgatory (that's "Gehennem" in case you're wondering). All I want is for wikipedia articles to be SCHOLARLY ie report the facts and cite all perspectives on the subject as opinions. Calling Tipu Sultan a "patriot" (as opposed to saying that he is "widely regarded as a patriot") is laughable as he did not have anything to be a patriot of. The fact remains that, from the objective historian's point of view, he was a tin-pot monarch of an obscure province who tried to stand up to the British and lost, and there have been questions raised about his religious atrocities. If none of these controversies are mentioned then the article is one-sided. I will file an RfA on this article and get admins to drive out all this jingoist gobbledygook from the article.Hkelkar 01:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Even though I am a new user i can see the references citied in the main page has to be credited...anyone who goes through the refernces (patriot), (freedom fighter), (relegious tolerance). Even the government of karnataka, former Ramakrishna Hegde attented a meeting in remeberance of Tipu, he celebrations have also included visits from Government Ministers and speeches from those whose role as administrators, curators or researchers has also contributed to the growth of interest in Tipu (http://www.nationalgalleries.org/tipu/tipu344.htm) and and (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5168550.stm) adds Tipu as a forefont in resisting the British.

Recently a minister D.H. Shankaramurthy was critised for his remarks by other ministers like former Ministers H. Vishwanath and Sageer Ahmed, The former Union Minister C.K. Jaffer Sharief,KPCC vice-president H. Hanumanthappa, general secretaries Abdul Wahab and Prakash Rathod, Congress Chief Whip in the Legislative Council Saleem Ahmed. History scholar N.V. Narasimhaiah said the "British version of history painted Tipu Sultan negatively while in Mysore's records, there were any number of instances that proved unambiguously that he wanted to end the colonial rule. Tipu Sultan, whose kingdom once panned the entire South, has been described as the ideal king by Mahatma Gandhi in Young India" the Karnataka Pradesh Congress Committee on Wednesday demanded that the Minister should be dropped from the H.D. Kumaraswamy Ministry.(http://www.thehindu.com/2006/09/21/stories/2006092120940500.htm) This article cleary shows how remarks of a minister created a controvesy in the house and majority of minister were against him. Marxist West Bengal government organised a three-day event to commemorate the 201st death anniversary of Tipu Sultan. (http://www.tipusultan.org/even19.htm). Eminent scholars and academics on Tipu (http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/24/stories/2006022407620500.htm),

former Chief minister Chief Minister J H. Patel, who chaired the first meeting last year, was emphatic that the government should observe the bicentenary in a fitting manner. "History repeats itself but Tipu will not be repeated," he is reported to have said. To avoid any criticism and ensure that the commemoration is held in every corner of Karnataka, the government has enlarged the representation of members on the committee. (http://home.btconnect.com/tipusultan/even3.htm)

Naming of airport as "Tipu sultan" ([22], [23]

The state government is positive on tipu but a few ministers wont make a difference. Sorry members i just joined and dont know how to arrange and discuss.

Shezaad786 8:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the matter is controversial but nonetheless, it must be mentioned. The controversy is significant and has had an impact in Karnataka. If we take a position on the issue (for or against) then the article is biased and that is not allowed regardless of any of our personal opinions etc. If you look at my edits of the controversy, you will see that it is entirely NPOV and does not take any position in favor of Tipu Sultan or against him, but the fundamentalist nutbags reverted it anyway.

The diff is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tipu_Sultan&diff=77486242&oldid=77482894

As it stands right now, the article is absurdly POV and smacks of nationalism and Islamist fundamentalism, and Tipu is portrayed as some sort of latter-Day Robin Hood-cum-Robert-de-Bruce folk hero in the same manner as as Bruce and William Wallace were portrayed in Mel Gibson's atrocious film Braveheart (and even article on Robert Bruce is unbiased). Wikipedia is not a nationalist soapbox, whether you are Indian Muslim or a Scottish Catholic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.Hkelkar 03:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

what do you mean by " Tipu is portrayed as some sort of latter-Day Robin Hood-cum-Robert-de-Bruce folk hero in the same manner as as Bruce and William Wallace were portrayed in Mel Gibson's atrocious film Braveheart" do u compare him to a villian after so many things he had done to the freedom struggle. UR completely wrong in your approach..he was a saint( he is regarded as a wali allah as mentioned b4) his grave is a dargha and a mazar, what if someone says negative about Sai Baba.

Ur the only one who has negative issues.The issue is not the article but you. as ur trying to implement ur hindutva principles into the article..I am not a muslim nor a hindu but a human being!

True indian

I am not even a Hindu damn it so how can I be "Hindutva"? Care to explain that? I don't give a beaver's damn whether Tipu was a saint or Judas Iscariot reborn! I want an objective and unbiased portrayal. Many people in Scotland regard Robert Bruce as a saint also but that does not mean that the wikipedia article needs to portray him as one. Get it Yoksh?

It is obvious to anyone of scholarly disposition that this article is trying to portay the Islamist POV of the "Enlightened Muslim Khilafat" in India (that too by citing the example of a relatively unknown ruler of a tiny handkerchief of a kingdom: Most Islamists typically deify Aurangzeb as the hero, but here we have a particularly nasty breed of localized Islamist tribalism at work), a patently ridiculous claim.Hkelkar

another personal attack

Wikipedia:No personal attacks SAYS "Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor" amounts to NPOV. your remarks" nasty breed of localized Islamist tribalism at work" and "but the fundamentalist nutbags reverted it anyway" to other members,does certainly amounts to personal attack. Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

Mujeerkhan10:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well you (or your sockpuppet) made attacks calling me "Hindutva" despite the fact that I am not even a Hindu. Plus, I didn't direct my ire at anyone in particular so how do you know I was referring to you?Hkelkar 08:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

well, the person who called the abusive words was not me and i dont have a "sockpuppet"and my earlier comment refered to "other members" which i commented on behalf of all other members. And for your kind information i am half muslim and half hindu( my parents being from different relegions) comment like "hindutva" also hurted me

See in my earlier comments i tired to negiotiate between you and members, but since your words posted earlier hurted me.

Mujeerkhan17:50 September 2006 (UTC)

all users

This discussion has gone ashtray and way beyond the purpose to which it was intended for.So all users can you all please help in developing the article and not quarelling among ourselves as this will leave us in a qaugmire! Mujeerkhan18:00 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry if it "hurted" you. But you must understand my position if you think calmly. Why don't you simply compare this travesty of an article to other articles about similar historical figures like Charlemagne,Robert I of Scotland, William Wallace, and many others and maybe you can see the problem here. None of those articles mention praise words in the first person, and any controversy associated with them is discussed and listed. In particular, look at Richard I of England and his antisemitism Richard I of England#Anti-Semitic violence, in which two views are presented.Hkelkar 11:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem bro. I understand your point,but negative issues on tipu sultan creates a havoc as he is considered a "holy person" in an around cities like Bangalore, Mysore, Mangalore where people of all faiths praise him and regard him as a wali allah, Shahid or a martyr. I know wikipedia does not care a word about this , but as always culture and relegion makes the difference!

Mujeerkhan18:49 September 2006 (UTC)

I respect your contention. However, if we succumb to these type of intimidation tactics by religious fanatics on wikipedia, then this encyclopedia will lose all credibility. Bear in mind that Richard the Lionheart is also considered a "Holy man" of sorts by many English Christians (he fought the crusades which was a holy war in christianity), yet christians would be offended by allegations of antisemitism towards him but that does not prevent scholars from editing the article appropriately. The same rules apply here also.Hkelkar 12:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hkelkar

I absolutely agree with Hkelkar we cannot let History to be corrupted by some Muslim Fanatics who claim Tipu as a saint and a good Ruler. Tipu was religious fanatic and was hell bent on destroying Kannada culture, the engraving on his grave says that Tipu died for iSLAM WHAT PROOF ELSE THE Jehadi Muslim fanatics need that he never cared for his people his only love was to save his illegal rule of Mysore and spread Islam . .vikramji

tipu was found here [24], "The interior of this chamber till the reach of the arch is decorated with paintings that resemble the stripes of a tiger. While Hyder Ali and his wife's tombs are covered with velvet cloth. Tipu's tomb is covered with cloth that appears like tiger skin. The corridor houses the tombs of Hyder Ali's family members. It is heartening to note that the paintings inside the chamber have never been subjected to chemical treatment. Footwear is strictly prohibited in and around the tomb" there is no mention of grave carvings as you mentioned [25] Shezaad786 23:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti Kannada

Some fanatic who cannot digest truth has deleted the Anti Kannada material , I have put it back and i warn the fanatics from deleating it,.vikramji

Whoa,whoaa...hold your petty threats down boy, if Tipu's real motive was to convert the likes of you, I think your mama would have smacked you in the butt for these comments-user:getisla —Preceding undated comment was added at 09:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC).

Could you please give a verible source. Mujeerkhan 23:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

here is the proof from which it says he was not anti kannada [26], [27], [28], [29],

Shezaad786 22:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Those are not "proofs". They are counterarguments. Counterarguments can, of course, be offerred provided you don;t take a biased position on them (as you just did). Might want to look up the dictionary meanings and wikipedia policies regarding several points of contention here.Like I said, nationalist/religious jingoism hard at work.Hkelkar 18:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Vikramji the link does not seem to work, can you get some other source or a better link for this ? Plus can you tone down the comments a bit, they are inflammatory, the same point can be made making it less POV. Haphar 11:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

IU agree with Vikramji's premise but also agree with Haphar that present tone of the edits are too inflammatory and needs to be made more NPOV (look at the history for my last edits and check).Hkelkar 13:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hkelkar,Due to the edits of vikramji I have edited ( from history of the article ) and put back the last edit you had made from the history edits. Because there should no more conflicts untill the issue has been resolved, do you agree.

Mujeerkhan 23:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Go to the page Vgowda user page and it says "I am Vikram Gowda from India". So, when someone with the same first name and a similarly abysmal standard of english, coupled with a fiery need to defend this article against an "anti kannada" bias - vikramji suddenly appears on the scene .. well, I think vikramji is just User:Vgowda operating under an alias. This article is becoming unusable - there are far better ways to resolve these differences than carry out edit wars based on statements based on poor research, or even on unsubstantiated folklore, liberally peppered with abuses in ungrammatical english. srs 10:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?

Some sections of this article as it stands are shockingly POV and will not be taken seriously by any neutral observer. This is a shame as Tipu was an important (although relatively minor) figure in the history of India. I can understand how he has come to be reinvented as a Muslim hero and freedom fighter (every nation needs its myths and legends), but this is a modern interpretation. He was an basically an opportunist like his father. The main reason for his anglophobia and violent opposition to the East India Company was not over religious matters or even nationalistic ones; it was that it was an obstacle to the glory of Mysore and thus his own expansionism. He was certainly pragmatic enough to enlist (infidel) French aid in opposing the British! His rule might be characterised by the phrase 'enlightened self-interest' - he knew who he could use and who he could safely get rid of. This was no different, or less cruel, than any other ruler of the time. He was even prepared to sue for peace with the British when they marched on Mysore, but of course by this time it was either him or them!
The article could, if it ever escapes from the bias of editors with an agenda to push, benefit from some mention of the 'Tipoo Tiger' organ in the V&A and his general obsession with the tiger (as shown in his Dream Book, where it is associated with exterminating infidels).
I hope this posting does not offend anyone, though I'm sure it will. I am neither Indian or Muslim: my interest in the subject comes from an interest in the life of the Duke of Wellington, who fought at Mysore early in his military career. 'Tipoo Sahib' has a special place in the annals of the British Army as a brave, resourceful adversary, and his memory deserves better than to be turned into propaganda to push a political or religious POV. EyeSerene 10:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I fully agree (I made similar arguments in posts above). I made edits showcasing controversies surrounding his activities (allegations of massacring Hindus etc.) but the Fundamentalists rverted them and started some rather nasty attacks.I am planning on filing an RfA on this matter soon.Hkelkar

This is clearly an emotive subject, but to include a section in the article on the controversy surrounding Tipu's modern-day image would seem to be a reasonable move. This has been done in other articles, for example that on the Boxer Rebellion (pointing out the difference between the atrocities they comitted and the modern Chinese portrayal of them as patriotic freedom fighters). It is perfectly possible to do this without being judgmental or taking sides - after all, to acknowledge that both Tipu and his father had their fair share of blood on their hands is not a personal attack on them, it is only stating widely accepted facts, and that is the purpose of Wikipedia ;-). I hesitate to do it myself though as I have no wish to start a revert war! EyeSerene 18:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I will be filing a full RfA on this article shortly so I will get admin action against several users here.Hkelkar 22:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Fundamentalist Propaganda

I absolutely agree with Hkelkarand EyeSerene, people have the right to know the truth, ONLY TRUTH PREVAILS IN THE END, Tipu was brave no question about that , but that just does not make him a patriot or national hero as his rule of mysore was itself illegal and was against the wishes of the people. He was desperate to retain his rule and nothing else, His atrocities against the Nairs of kerala and Kodavas of coorg is well documented in the respective articles. The few Fundemantilist fanatics want to hide this , and Mr mujbeerkahn, just having same name does not mean Vgowda user page and me are the same , i have been here on wikipedia long before any of u, so stop finding excuses and come out of your inferiority complex and accept the fact. Dont act like the Taliban. vikramji

How many proofs do you guys need! Another nasty remark "fundamentalist" which agian is an NPOV if u cant digest the truth then pls keep in ur own body. user gowda is no other than but Hkelkar himself.And if you are him i am sure you want to make some more idoitic comments

USERS Kathanar,Ben W Bell talk, Bodhidhamma,Hornplease have given several warnings to Mr Hkelkar in just 2 days for vandalising and spreading fundamentalism! all users pls check talk page of Hkelkarremarks against Kancha Ilaiah , Votebank, Godhra Train Burning, Indian Buddhist Movement ,Shudra ,Dalit you will surely find something worse! he is trying to spread fundamentalism himself.

Naziakhanum19:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

All right. Another personal attack to be reported.Hkelkar 21:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, the same users have been warned by Ben W Bell (an admin) for vandalism and personal attacks. I believe you are twisting the facts to smear me and trying to tout an agenda of hate. This will be filed as a complaint, of course.Hkelkar 21:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You have vandalised the article by edting, the last edit was by you..please have a see on wiki policies on disputes and personal attack.it was you who said fundamentalist perhaps it is time for you to have a proper look on wiki policies.If u want to report me then please carry on.

Naziakhanum 08:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Neutral

If Tipu fought the British only for his kingdom, so did Rani of Jhansi. So if Tipu is not a national figure, please apply same rule to Rani of Jhansi. Let's try and be balanced here, sure we do not have to glorify Tipu, but there is no need to run him down ( based on political stances rather than history) either. Haphar 06:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the Rani of Jhansi article does not refer to her as a "patriot" in the first person nor make laughable claims about being a "linguist". What's next, are the Mujahids going to give Rodney King a PhD???Hkelkar 07:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I did say both sides need to tone it down. And Rodney King would get is more likely to get a Phd from nation of islam rather than the mujahids. Haphar 09:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Sock Puppets

I think Mujeerkhan,Hassan,iFaqeer,Mysorebhai,Tipu Hero and Naziakhanum are all sock puppets of the same person, which i guess is Mujbeerakhan,can somebody verify he computer ID's please. Somebody tried to put in a Caste angle to Religious presecution of Hindus.

• Vikramji

This is your last warning.I am not a sock puppet and please can you be more civil by signing in properly and put date, time etc. and stop using calling me as "Mujbeerakhan" as it has some other meaning and you are purposely calling me by that name.

Mujeerkhan 20:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Distorting Facts

Firstly, Mr Mujebrakhan is hell bent on distorting facts by claiming that Kannada was not suitable for administration, he should go and read History books before coming to such stupid and baseless conclusion, kannada has been the administrative language of many great empires like the Rastrakuta, Vijayanagar, Hoysala and Kadamaba to name a few even before advent of Islam and when the Arabs and probably Tipu's ancestors were living a life of Nomads. Kannada language is one of the most advanced and sopisticated languages in the world, Mujebrakhan probably doesn't know much about Kannada or Karnataka , but still he claims he knows everything about tippu. Secondly, About the claim by Mujebra that Tipu,s army consisted of people from backward casted is absolutely ridiculous and shows his castist attitudes, The mysore marajas themselves were from Yadava/Kuruba clan and does that mean they were backward, He is creating many lies to prove wrong as right. Vikramji29 sep06 There is no point in talking with you and i am going to file a complain against you

Mujeerkhan 20:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wake Up, Kannad fools, your language is a failed language and it wont take you anywhere !!! Look at your rulers - Mysore Rajas - were puppets all the way !!!! First, Puppets of the Deccan Sultanates, then puppets of Mughal Empire, then puppets of the Marathas, then puppets of Hyder Ali, then Tipu Sultan kicked them away, and then again puppets of the British !!!! Big Shame !!!! How many times will they become puppets ?? It was really good that the greatest ruler of India, Tipu Sultan encouraged Persian and Urdu in Mysore, otherwise our Karnatak Muslim brothers would've been stuck speaking a failed language !!!! Speaking of language does Kannada has the beauty of Urdu, or Muslims.Hkelkar 12:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)the brilliance of Persian ? Naah... And Kannad leaders are caught napping in the Parliament ! Zzzzzz... !!! Still, time hasn't gone... Let the Karanataka government make Urdu an official language and see how Karnataka will prosper. I advise all Cannad people to convert into Urdu and/or Persian. You will really prosper. - Ismael Tarkan 11:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Racist vandal (see contribs+vandalism reverts by other users) reported.Hkelkar 12:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Update:User:Ismael Tarkan has been indefinitely blocked from editing wikipedia.Hkelkar 12:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You have gone too far and this is WP:NPOV and directly assualting a certain community and a language.Dont make uncivil statements like "converts" to urdu...that is immoral.And your statements like "failed language" really amuses me as kannada is spoken by nearly 45-50 million people and to make urdu as "official language" is really ridiculous as it has no sense and do you know what impact will it have..disaster! Dont forget we are muslims and we respect all relegions no matter where we live.and we would even lay our lives to protect our country and our homes...remember we are not oppressors but take steps not to be oppressed..that is what Islam teaches us! Mujeerkhan 20:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Helkar I think we should stop editing and make a decision, survey and something likethat, which is accepted by all contradicting parties and no more nonsence edits. I was just going through the article and the english grammer sounded pathetic.

Mujeerkhan 21:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have already started the process in mediation. There is a 5 day wait time. The page is here:

Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/September_2006/Hkelkar

Hkelkar 12:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That is great..but let me warn you, never call a muslim a mohammedian as this means 'muslims workship mohammed as god and not Allah this is a direct insult to muslims as we are followers of islam. perhaps you should apologize to muslim users.

Mujeerkhan 21:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Well the term "Mohammedean" is generally used by scholars to refer to Muslims so I used it also. There was no insult implied, nor did I make any claims that Muslims "worshipped" Mohamed. Plus, I'm sure that Jews, Hindus, christians, and Baha'ii would feel the same way about being routinely called "Kaffir" or "Dhimmi" of "Dar-al-Harb" yet the terms are frequently used by Muslims.Hkelkar 12:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You are sick bro! did anyone called you a kafir or what..lol looks like u have been abused by those words...how many times dude and for how many years..ah.ah ah! sounds like ur a hinduvitan who kills other people for money but later on kills his own family...lol

Goingindia no time!

Update:User:Goingindia has been indefblocked as an abusive sock of indefblocked User:Ismael Tarkan.Hkelkar 00:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

absurd, amounts to personnal attacks. This is out of the discussion on the related topic, so please discuss relevant to the topic.THANK YOU.

Mujeerkhan 2:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me a proof as scholars agree with the term, I want to have verifible reasons and also dont discuss this here its better to make a discussion in islam talk page..i think you are going too far by making this statements.

Mujeerkhan 22:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, it is so bad that Muslims in Karnataka speak Urdu. Their mother-tongue is Urdu. Which gives them a different identity, an identity of Muslims in a South Indian state Karnataka speaking North Indian language. I mean, Muslims in Kerala speak Malayalam, Muslims in Tamil Nadu speak Tamil, Muslims in south Gujarat (esp. in rural areas) speak Gujarati, Muslims in Maharashtra (other than Bombay) speak Marathi, Muslims in Bengal & Bangladesh speak Bengali, Muslims in Assam speak Assamese and/or Bengali, Muslims in Punjab speak Punjabi but Muslims in Karnataka do not speak Kannada. If they are sons of the soil (aka local converts) then why did they leave their local mother-tongue and if they are invaders/migrants then why didn't they adopt to the local Karnataka language. I wonder.... Who failed whom here ? I think this has led to polarisation in the state. I mean, if you want to keep religious communalism at bay, you need to have something common, and the lowest common denominator is language. Then why is it not seen in Karnataka ? Or do Karnataka's Muslims still believe that Urdu is their Qoum ki bhasha ? That too when Urdu is a slight deviation of Apabhramsha with Persian/Arabic words thrown in. Hmmmmm....It's an interesting topic.... Ration Shopper 18:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The Tamils who immigrated to the Kannada land a long time ago, speak both Tamil and Kannada. Likewise, in addition to speaking Kannada, the Andhras speak Telugu, the Marathas speak Marathi, and the Marwaris speak Marwari. Why single out the Muslims of the erstwhile Mysore if they speak Urdu? Mysore has been a cosmopolitan region since the time when Bombay(Mumbai) did not even exist.Kanchanamala 00:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"Why single out the Muslims of the erstwhile Mysore if they speak Urdu?" Because they're trying to impose their language upon others, not live in a "multilingual" cosmopolitan culture.Hkelkar 00:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Not true, my friend, not true.Kanchanamala 10:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

See posts above by the likes of Tipu Hero etc. Anyways let's just agree to disagree here. Hkelkar 12:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Muslim Converts

I insist on including Tipus anti kannada stance, Ration Shopper has asked why the converted muslims don't speak kannada in karnataka, the reason being people like Tipu Saltan and the Bahamani kings who encourages Persian instead of Kannada.--Vikramji 10:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ration Shopper has not given the complete picture- Muslims in Andhra too speak Urdu, hence it is false to taint Kannadiga Muslims. Also All Kannadiga muslims speak Kannada better than they speak Urdu, so this Muslims anti Kannada bit is false. Their version of Urdu ( and Andhra's) will drive any Urdu speaker up the wall. And the Persian bit by Vikramji is not factual. There is no Persian spoken in Bangalore.Haphar 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Haphar, but point is they do consider that their mother-tongue is Urdu, and not Kannada, unlike others I mentioned. Muslims in Andhra speak Urdu, but it is not proper Urdu, it is Hyderabadi language or Hyderabadi Urdu. This language is actually based on a combination of Urdu and Marathi grammar with an enormous amount of Telugu loan words. In fact, the language is more closer to Marathi dialects than puritanical Urdu. But that is not seen in Karnataka. Again, Urdu is no foreign language. It is Indian language. Actually it is modified Hindi/Apabhramsa thus North Indian muslims speak a modified local language. Infact, this part of the world where I live in Uttar Pradesh, I see misguided maulvis speaking rhetorical about how Urdu is language of Indian Muslims... blah blah... and then he gives example of Karnataka Muslims, of how they are linguistically oppressed in Karnataka. I don't know if any of that is true. But it set me thinking. I mean Muslims of the North-East don't even know Urdu but here is a community who swears so much by Urdu, that is a religious identity more than a linguistic one, and that's what causes problems. Ration Shopper 16:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Can all Kannadigas try to change thier mother tongue from Kannada to Hindi which is the national language of India, now tell me if India is in Karnataka or Karnataka is in India. so why not remove kannada and make Hindi as state language and are an Indian first or a kannadiga.

Shezaad786 22:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Read more before making stupid comments. Indian does not mean only Hindi. Indian means every language which also includes Kannnada, Punjabi, Gujarati, Telugu, Tamil, ... , Hindi, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_languages_of_India Chanakyathegreat 16:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't make any controversial edits to the article yet plz. As you can see above I have a mediation cabal pending on the article so let the mediators drop by (they should in a couple of days).Once they do we can all discuss our respective issues, from allegations of persecution to opposition to Kannada etc.Hkelkar 10:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Mediation does not mean one had to hide the wrong side of Tipu and project only the other side. If he had used Kannada it is for his own use to govern. How can the people of Karnataka talk persian when they don't know that language. The saying that Tipu was pro-Kannada was uncalled for. It is not his love for Kannada that made him use Kannda but situation. How can the seer learn Persian. Chanakyathegreat 12:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree.All historical perspectives need mentioning. Thisis why I have requested mediation as several Muslim users wanted to whitewash the allegations of persecution, and several Hindu users wanted to exaggerate it. We need to find a neutral middle ground here and mention both issues with appropriate weight. Bear in mind that one of the key preponents of the persecution theory was the (late) and highly noted (albeit controversial) historian Sita Ram Goel. This is a controversy and we must not take any partisan sides in our edits, for or against.Hkelkar 12:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Goel or no Goel, People from the Malabar region, who are uneducated and who did not read books of Goel still tell the stories of Tipu's army ravaging the Temples of Malabar and killing Hindus, as told by their forefathers. It is true that Tipu has indulged in such henious activities in the Malabar region. Chanakyathegreat 04:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Haphar makes a good point.Tales don't count unless a historian has done research on them.Goel's review of the Villian or Hero article mentions enough about the persecution to warrant mentioning, given Goel's scholarly notability [30], eh?Hkelkar 12:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally Kerala has the highest literacy rates in the country ! Tales do not make for truth. We need verifable content here. Haphar 08:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Folklore is passed onto generations to generations and in such folklore there exists truth because it is the story of these persecutions that will be told and then passed on to generations. It is not told by a single person but by a whole region that has witnessed such henious acts and the explantion is in detail of the destruction of the temples and the places of attack in order. This attack is called in local slang as Tippuvinde padayottam or Tippu's military march into the region. Tipu was not an Akbar. Akbar was a secular person whereas Tipu was more fundamentalist. Chanakyathegreat 16:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You just cant stick to just one or two source and which are anti muslim which creates communal voilence Remember Sita ram goel books were banned by government of india, books like Understanding Islam through Hadis, History of Hindu-Christian Encounters, The Calcutta Quran Petition where he went hiding for several months! Do you call this man a scholar!

Naziakhanum 23:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Who cares if they were banned? Even Salman Rushdie's books were "banned". As were books by Taslima Nasrim and Wafa Sultan.Wikipedia is not oblidged to follow the Government of India's cowardly pandering to Sharia law.

As it happens, some of the brightest scholars of our time were censored by governments at some time or other, like Felix Hausdorff under Nazi Germany. Ever heard of Democracy and Freedom of Speech? Evidently al-Qaeda hasn't.

How many times did Gandhi and Nehru cool their heels in prison anyway?

The fact remains that Goel satisfies wikipedia norms of scholasticity and so may be included as a Reliable Source for a scholastic view.Hkelkar 18:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You never change your topic on islamic issues! why do you have so much hate for them did they ever harm you and so how and when

KICKJEW 07:00, 6 OCTOBER 2006

Plus, wikipedia does not make judgements about anti-muslim or anti-Martian or whatever. Goel's personal views are irrelevant with respect to his scholarly works. The sensible editor does not care about what people say about scholars in the name of loopy fairy tales. We are interested in the scholastic notability of a reference, and Goel had the publications, the degrees, and the notability to satisfy those criteria.Nonetheless, he may be mentioned as a "controversial" scholar and the ref used as a primary source per the norms in WP:Reliable Sources. I guess that's a suitable compromise with the Islamofascist propagandists.Hkelkar 19:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

More Evidence to back Tipu Sultan's Persecution of Hindus

here are some additional refs:

"Annual reports of the Portuguese Franciscans in India, 1713-1833" by Achilles Meersman P238.

“ This persecution [of Hindus and Christians] began roughly with the accession of Tippu Sultan to the throne in 1782, rached its clímax in 1787 and continued up to 1792 ”

"The Colors of Violence: Cultural Identities, Religion, and Conflict" by Sudhir Kakar P17

“ To illustrate this, let me take the earlier example of Tipu Sultan, who

destroyed some Hindu temples and persecuted certain Hindu groups.

”

Now bear in mind that this book opposes Hindu Nationalism and is critical of it in general

"Kerala Under Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan" by C. K. Kareem (A Muslim, no less!) P 187

“ Tipu Sultan's practice to correspond only in says "it is probably about this

time, that he issued an edict for the destruction of all the Hindu temples"

”

"The Protected Princes of India" by William Lee-Warner (Page 71)

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC00185953&id=GciCSpe1OOMC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=The+Protected+Princes+of+India

“ Upon the restoration of Peace with the British, Tippu turned his attention on the Marathas, and his acts soon revealed the bigotry of the man.His destruction of Hindu temples and his forced conversion to the faith of Islam of 100,000 people, affforded a marked contrast to the toleration and conciliatory temper which his father had wisely exhibited ”

I ask that these also be cited.Hkelkar 02:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Tipu's rocket

I found an interesting video on Tipu Sultan's rocket and how it created fear and panic on the British. Its taken from History channel. Hope this video does not breaches wiki policies.

[[31]]

Shezaad786 22:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thats a good video for rest of the viewers to see from thier own eyes!

Naziakhanum 09:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

And the quotes from actual scholarly books (instead of the Libertarian hoopla of the "History Channel") listed above will also be a good thing for viewers to see "from their own eyes"[sic].Hkelkar 05:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I have read from my own college text book's (karnataka) that tipu was a great soldier and the first indian king to openly defy the british dominance of india, that makes him a freedom fighter! Hkelkar were you not barrded from using wikipedia for quite some time! [[32]]

Indiandesi 17:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC) <User Indiandesi warned for personal attacks>Hkelkar 11:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope. I wasn;t "barrded"[sic] for significant periods of time at all, but you will be if you go at this rate. I don't care what textbooks say. Most textbooks are politically correct trash anyways. Plus the mediation cabal is going my way. If you vandalize the article despite the results of the mediation I can and will file an RfA and get you banned. I have already addressed the partisanship of the tipusultan.org ref in the AMA request.Hkelkar 11:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

well, go ahead I shall see. i just saw in your talk page that you were barred for 3 hrs.

Indiandesi 17:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

hah! 3 hrs is nothing! Plus, your ringleader BhaiSaab was blocked for as long (and his block log is worse anyway).Hkelkar 11:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hold on, what do you mean " ringleader" i dont even know "BhaiSaab" I dont have anything to do with him! this amounts to personel attacks on me and I am gonig to file a complain against you. Indiandesi 17:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I apologize for saying that BhaiSaab was your ringleader. now YOU apologize for calling me "zionist anti-muslim" and I will withdraw my complaint against you that I have already made.Hkelkar 11:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I said "Zoinst, anti muslim" is that what you have studied on islam! I did not say to you that you were "Zoinst, anti muslim" and if you think i have said to you then I am sorry.

One more thing dont ever call Indian text books as "garbage" and "rags" because we indians learn from this text books and respect them as holy next to our own holy books.Perhaps you should also make a apolpgy in this regard.

Indiandesi 17:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Since I did not violate any wikipedia policies I will not apologize for that. I have read the same kinds of Indian textbooks that you have and they are mostly pure trash. They are written by leftist committees and whitewash a lot of Indian history for the sake of political correctedness. The writings are skewed and poor. Some textbooks in some states are okay, but the national board textbooks are garbage. They are as bad (if not worse) as American textbooks.Hkelkar 12:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Another Creation

Its been proved that Mujbeerakhan has been creating sock puppets (see the warning on his home page) and as i guessed before it was right and i suspect Indiandesi is also his creation, so he is the ring leader and he is the member or members as well. since it has been proved who was vandalising the article, i insist on including tippy's Anti Kannada Stance in the article--Vikramji 18:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC) and user Hassan(sock puppet)who claims to be from pakistan but surprisingly can spell names of temples in Mysore with perfection, since when Pakistunis started learning about Hinduism or is it Tippu walialuhiah's miracle?--Vikramji 18:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Master Tippu Puppeteer

The other two sock puppets of Mujeerkhan are Hydman and True Indian, since its been found out that Mujebrakhan has be creating sock puppets , he is been lying low and ithink might creat more sock puppets. More over he has repeatedly used abusive language against me and Hkelkar through his numerous sock puppets, he has also been using very abusive and foul language then tries warning and mediating between his own sock puppets which is very disgusting. Can you please block him for ever.--Vikramji 10:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Advocacy report

Hello - I have been asked to carry out advocacy regarding this article by Hkelkar. Having considered this dispute carefully from a neutral standpoint, I have come to what I consider to be a fair conclusion. I would like to offer some advice for good article writing:

• Always source statements WP:CITE and cite them appropriately.
• Always ensure that you include verifiable statements for anything you say (WP:V)
• Always ensure that you edit from a neutral point of view (POV) (WP:NPOV)
• Always think before pressing "Save" - is your edit likely to flare up strong opinions? If so, then before making it you should leave a note on the talk page, and wait for an appropriate length of time before editting (ie - until you get some replies (or a few days)). Remember that edits can easily be carefully thought out and saved in a text file, before copy/pasting into WP
• Never get into any form of edit war. If you make an edit which is reverted by another user, follow WP:0RR and initiate calm discussion on the talk page to build ocnsensus before editting again
• If another user is incivil towards you, always try to follow WP:CIVIL and reply in a calm manner. If attacks continue, report to an admin
• Discuss all major (proposed) changes on the article talk page.

I would cordially request that all editors of this article follow these recommendations to the letter, in orderthat we might make this article go forward with more information, not remain stuck in the past. Please remember that no-one (and no group of users) owns an article - it is improtant to respect this if the encyclopedia as a whole is to move forward. On the subject of sockpuppetry, the proven case at WP:RFCU against users including Mujeerkhan (see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/mujeerkhan) is not, in my opinion, relevant, as long as those usernames follwo my guidelines above. Should personal attacks against other users continue to stem from these accounts, I can forsee that an admin may implement an indefblock. Finally, if I may, I would like to suggest that a 0RR policy be used on this article. This means that if someone edits in a way which you disagree with, DO NOT REVERT! Instead, intiated discussion here or try to re-word their edits. Please do not allow any more edit wars to break out. As a reminder, any sourced statement which is from an allowable source (WP:CITE) can be left in an article. If editors can find counter arguements (sourced, of course), they may add them to the article with links. Oh - and before I sign off, can I just say that the quotation mark images, when used in articles, can look bad - please consider just using "..." :). I hope that you consider this advice, and follow it -- Martinp23 18:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Religious Persecution

I do not often revert changes, particularly not when they are to a page where controversy appears to flourish. However, with apologies to Hkelkar I do not see how his recent alterations improved my edits. With regard to Tipu Sultan's employment of Hindus in important positions I have provided examples and a reference to a highly-respected historical work, so the {{Fact}} tag was no longer necessary. What I wrote about Wilks and Fitzpatrick is true - try reading their work, or at the very least set it in its original political context. The British demonised Tipu Sultan after his fall whilst making much of their own maganimity in restoring Mysore to the Wodeyar Rajahs, and their reasons for doing so are obvious (I say this as an Englishman myself). The historians I have cited are indeed agreed on the conclusion I have added to this section, other historians disagree with them and their assertions are given plenty of space further up the page. Sikandarji 22:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes yes. You have done an excellent job of sourcing your edits and I have kept the edits you have sourced. However, you have made a POV assertion that the historians were "biased" and not kept a neutral narrative so I got rid of that statement. I kept everything else as you seem to have cited them well.Hkelkar 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Your claims about Wilks and Fitzpatrick m is a violation of WP:NOR. Cite a source that explicitly alleges that W & F are bigots and that would be fine. Plus, my asseretions are backed up by Muslim historians like C.K Kareem (see my citations).Hkelkar 22:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

P33 of the imperial gazeteer does not mention the population of Coorg:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bdYMAAAAIAAJ&vid=OCLC02832270&dq=Imperial+Gazetteer+of+India&jtp=33

Hkelkar 23:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Stories of Tipu's religious persecution of Hindus are largely derived from the work of early British authors(dubious assertion—see talk page) such as Kirkpatrick [11] and Wilks

No proof has been provided for this outlandish assertion other than the works of K & W. Do K or W state that their works are seminal or what? Please provide specific sources to back your assertions.Hkelkar 23:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You are very persistent: I will give you another quotation from Mohibbul Hasan, author of the standar biography of Tipu, on this point, but it seems over-egging the pudding to put it in the article. After all, it's not hard to understand why Englishmen in the late 18th/early 19th centuries were hostile to Tipu. Kirkpatrick and Wilks were the earliest authors to provide works and sources in English about him and his rule, and it stands to reason that later writers (most of whom knew neither Persian nor Kannada) drew extensively on these. Here we go then:

"Tipu's Policy towards his non-Muslim subjects has been variously estimated. Kirkpatrick calls Tipu "the intolerant bigot or the furious fanatic."1 Wilks, in his History of Mysore describes stories of forcible conversion, mass circumcisions, the destruction of temples and the confiscation of temple lands, and arrives at the conclusion that Tipu was "an intolerant bigot", and, "in an age when persecution survived only in history renewed its worst terrors."2

1 W. Kirkpatrick Select Letters of Tippoo Sultan (London) 1811 px

2 M. Wilks Historical Sketches of the South of India in an Attempt to Trace the History of Mysore Ed. M. Hammick (Mysore) 1930 Vol. II p766."

Mohibbul Hasan The History of Tipu Sultan (Delhi) 1971 p357

Irfan Habib, writing about Kirkpatrick's translation of Tipu's incomplete Memoirs, says that "Some statements of Kirkpatrick obviously display his bias against Tipu Sultan" State and Diplomacy under Tipu Sultan (Delhi) 2001 p5

Your google search for the Gazetteer reference is worthless. It is a multi-volume work (something you were apparently unaware of as you failed even to enter a volume number) and the reference is on p33 of Vol.IV. I'm afraid the internet has its limits when it comes to proper research: you will need to get yourself to a library. Meanwhile I will remove the "dubious reference" tag. Sikandarji 00:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Good. i will go to the library and get it. Please do not remove tags until disputes have been resolved.Please observe WP:civil.Hkelkar 00:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course Habib says this, what else would you expect from him? Habib is not a neutral historian, and historians disagree with each other quite often. --Bondego 01:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The point is that Kirkpatrick is writing so close to the events he describes that he is a source, not a historian. He and all those other Englishmen who wrote about Tipu in the twenty or so years after the Fall of Seringapatam were all trying to justify the expensive and aggressive wars which the East India Company had waged against him to the British public. They also wanted to defend and promote the new settlement the British had created by restoring the Wodeyar Rajah of Mysore. I cannot understand why this should be so hard to accept: it's part of a basic historical training when you learn to evaluate sources: who produced them and why, what was the immediate political context etc. British sources from the immediate aftermath of Tipu Sultan's fall, must be handled carefully and with circumspection. They are the basis for many later accounts for the simple reason that most of those writing in English did not know Kannada or Persian (some important sources, such as the Shankacharya letters, did not become available until 1916). That said, plenty of historians do disagree with Habib because of his Marxism, to which he still stubbornly adheres long after it has gone out of fashion (though his reputation stands very high, largely thanks to The Agrarian System of Mughal India).Sikandarji 07:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, the point is that all these assertions are original research (yours). Inferences that YOU have drawn based on YOUR interpretation of the work of others. Even if it is correct (and I dispute that, since it bears a rather skunky Anglophobic smell; even if you may be an Englishman) it is still not admissible on wikipedia unless, of course, you have any peer-reviewed publications of your own.Hkelkar 07:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

As it happens I do, but as they aren't about Tipu Sultan that doesn't help much. This would be "original research" if I were quoting from archival sources. Otherwise it just involves using your brain, something which was still permitted on Wikipedia the last time I looked. Are you seriously suggesting that no-one ever evaluates and analyses the sources they use for this encyclopaedia? Maybe that's why junk like Sita Ram Goel has been used for this article, because no one with any historical training could possibly take that nonsense seriously. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Anglophobia - I'm as patriotic as any Englishman and I'm not in the habit of engaging in pointless self-flagellation and post-colonial guilt-trips like some of my compatriots. I just don't let my nationality blind me to obvious historical facts about the unreliability of English sources written in the immediate aftermath of Tipu Sultan's fall and with a particular agenda in mind. It's just common sense. Sikandarji 08:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid tht you have just exhibited some fairly standard traits of original researchers on wikipedia, making dismissive statements like "it is only common sense" and so on. Regardless of what you may REGARD as "common sense", WP:NOR carries within itself the mandate that NO INTERPRETATIONS OR INFERENCES OF THE EDITOR ARE ALLOWED! NONE AT ALL. Not one bit, not one iota.You have made an inference from the sources that is not backed up by any additional references but by a line of reasoning that you have provided. That is a WP:NOR violation of wikipedia policy, regadless of your attempts to deflect the debate from the issue at hand.

Furthermore,Your disdain for sources that you don't agree with is a clear indication of your academic biases, which is precisely why the WP:NOR policy was coined in the first place. We are not to characterize the validity of sources unless any issues with validity can be established by objective information.Bear in Mind that Goel also used scholarly sources to make his assertions (see the ref.). Just because it does not suit your taste does not give you the authority to evaluate the validity of a reference which does not violate WIKIPEDIA's standards of WP:RS.

The fact that some wikipedia articles contain interpretation merely indicates that some wikipedians do not respect this canonical policy.I, however, DO follow WP:NOR and contest some of your edits as a violation of WP:NOR unless you can provide evidence to the contrarty. We can, of course, take this matter to mediation and I am 99% sure that mediators will agree with me on this matter.Hkelkar 08:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

They might also be interested to look at some of the passages contained in the Raja article, and would no doubt draw their own conclusions about the "neutrality" of a source which contains the following passage:

"In the end all the Government posts were filled by lazy and irresponsible Muslims. As a consequence the people had to suffer a great deal because of those fun-seeking and irresponsible Muslim officers. The Muslim officers, occupying important posts at all levels, were all dishonest and unreliable persons. Even when people complained to him with evidences against those officers, Tipu Sultan did not care to inquire about the complaints lodged."

This without any references to contemporary sources at all. I have come across this little game before: the lazy intellectual relativism which states that all sources have equal validity and deserve equal representation, however bigoted and worthless they may be. Thus a polemical piece of vanity publishing like the Goel pamphlet or P.N. Oak's poisonous ramblings (see the Talk: Taj Mahal page) is given equal prominence with the work of Habib, who has a doctorate from Oxford and is Professor of History at Aligarh Muslim University, or Mohibbul Hasan, who taught at Calcutta University and was a Professor at Aligarh, at the University of Kashmir and Jamia Millia Islamia. Regarding the latter, I have provided him as a source stating that Wilks and Kirkpatrick are the originators of the 19th century myth of Tipu as a bloodthirsty tyrant. Like all historians his work is open to question, but at least he has read the contemporary sources in Persian, Kannada and Marathi, which is more than can be said for his opponents. Holden Furber's Review of the first edition of his book in The Journal of the American Oriental Society in 1951 states "Although Mohibbul Hasan Khan has quite thoroughly disposed of those British writers from whose work was built the nineteenth-century picture of Tipu as a "monster" and a capricious Oriental despot, he has been too anxious to acquit Tipu of nearly all faults." This seems to me a fair assessment: there is little doubt that Tipu did carry out some forced conversions, and often tortured his opponents. However, this did not take place on the scale alleged by the Hindutva-wallahs, and it was not part of some comprehensive anti-Kafir policy, as shown clearly by his correspondence with the Shankacharya of the Sringeri temple. Religious identities in the 18th century were much more fluid and syncretic than either modern Muslim or Hindu ideologues are prepared to admit. At the moment much of this article represents an anachronistic projection into the past of modern communal conflict. Sikandarji 08:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, actually, PN Oak's pseudoscientific rubbish was dismissed long ago as a reliable source on wikipedia, largely because NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCHOLAR backs up any of his outlandish claims at all. However, the same cannot be said of either Goel or Raja, both of whom draw from scholarly references to back up their assertions. Their tone may be less than neutral, but that is precisely why I kept that tone out of the wikipedia article but kept the bits that were more scholarly. Bear in mind that Habib is fairly partisan in this matter too, his Marxism clearly establishing the tendency to engage in marxist historiography and coloring his research with the typical Marxist dialectic materialism that I see among many far-left fanatics in academia.

However, I have refrained from making these assertions in the article as I cannot meaningfully substantiate them. In the same way, you cannot meaningfully substantiate some your assertions except by your own interpretations.Hkelkar 08:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I find your assertion that "much of this article represents an anachronistic projection into the past of modern communal conflict" a rather amusing example of a fanatic trying to label the opponents as "fanatics" and deflecting attention from himself. It is clear to any impartial eye that the article, as it stands, is an absurd pandering to leftist historical revisionism. Any scholarly claims attesting to Tipu's persecutions are endlessly qualified, apologized for and/or dismissed, whereas any claims of his pluralism are aggrandized, over-emphasized, and blown out of proportion. I agree with you that a "middle ground" probably exists with Tipu. On a scale of 1-10, with the mass murdering lunatic Aurangzeb at 1 and the significantly more tolerant and multicultural Akbar at 10, Tipu probably rates a 5. However, the edits right now try to portray him as a 7 or 8, which is biased and partial.Hkelkar 09:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that their tone is less than neutral might suggest to some that their interpretation and use of sources (to none of which any page references have been given) is equally suspect. I would class Goel alongside Oak, and so would most historians. Anyway Mr wikilawyer, I have another source for you. C.C. Davies review of Hasan's book in the English Historical Review Vol.68 №.266 (Jan, 1953) pp144-5 runs thus:

"In his History of Tipu Sultan (Calcutta: The Bibliophile Ltd., 1951) Mr Mohibbul Hasan Khan has provided us with the first detailed and fully documented account of the career and policy of the last Muslim ruler of Mysore. Hitherto we have had to rely on Wilk's Historical Sketches of the South of India (3 Vols., 1810-17) and Bowring's Haidar Ali and Tipu Sultan (1899). Wilk's fascinating study was written too near to the events he described to be regarded as authoritative, while Bowring appears to be heavily indebted to these pioneer volumes. It is difficult to take up any history of India which does not exhibit, in some form or another, either unconscious or deliberate bias. Thus one has to discount the British official bias in the writings of retired administrators."

If you have access to JSTOR you can read it yourself. One other book I need to read is the recent one by Kate Brittlebank, but I don't have a copy of my own. Once I'm back from the Indian Institute I'll let you know what it has to say on the contentious religious points.Sikandarji 09:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Give me title and publisher and I will get it from university library if they have it. Yes, I do have access to JSTOR through my university proxy server and will read your reference.Hkelkar 09:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Kate Brittlebank: Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy: Islam and kingship in a Hindu domain (Delhi: Oxford University Press) 1997 Sikandarji 09:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Dubious Assertions

1. Your claims about Wilks and Fitzpatrick m is a violation of WP:NOR. Cite a source that explicitly alleges that W & F are bigots and that would be fine. Plus, my asseretions are backed up by Muslim historians like C.K Kareem (see my citations).Hkelkar 22:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
2. P33 of the imperial gazeteer does not mention the population of Coorg:http://books.google.com/books?id=bdYMAAAAIAAJ&vid=OCLC02832270&dq=Imperial+Gazetteer+of+India&jtp=33
3. This quote:

Stories of Tipu's religious persecution of Hindus are largely derived from the work of early British authors(dubious assertion—see talk page) such as Kirkpatrick [11] and Wilks

No proof has been provided for this outlandish assertion other than the works of K & W. Do K or W state that their works are seminal or what? Please provide specific sources to back your assertions.Hkelkar 23:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you are failing to distinguish between your conclusions, which are inadmissible per WP:NOR, and the conclusions of accredited and well-p[ublished scholars, which, when stated as THEIR conclusions, IS admissible.Hkelkar 00:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Above, you made a claim of seminality without advancing proof of seminality regarding the K&W assertions.Habin does not assert that K&W's works are seminal in any way, just that they make claims which Habib disputes.Plus, the refs I have provided have nothing to do with K&W but involve completely different authors, some even PREDATING K&W.

You have provided refs and quotes which I will verify tomorrow (it's sunday today & library is closed).Hkelkar 00:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I really don't give a damn whether historians are Muslim, Hindu or Jedi - neither should you. The question is their academic reputation and the verifiability of what they write. The main "source" for the account of Tipu Sultan's "religious bigotry" and "atrocities" is portion of a polemical tract by P.C.N. Raja, whoever he may be, which does not contain one single reference. This is not acceptable as a source. Nothing cited predates Wilks and Kirkpatrick, certainly not as far as publication and widespread circulation is concerned, and that's what matters here.Sikandarji 00:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

But my William lee-warner source DOES predate K&W. No it doesn't, my mistake. Still, can you establish this as fact that K&W are seminal. You have made assertions that are YOUR original research, not established by WP:RS that their work is seminal. You have merely stated that "no work predates them", an assertion you need to prove by scholarly refs.Hkelkar

Plus, the coorg thing is a violation of WP:NOR. besides, the pop listed in vol 4 is for 1836, long after Tipu Sultan. Who's to say that the pop of Coorg was not higher before?

http://books.google.com/books?id=qNUMAAAAIAAJ&vid=OCLC02832270&dq=Imperial+Gazetteer+of+India+Vol+IV&jtp=33

Vol IV this time.Hkelkar 00:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Returned from Library

Right. I just visited the Univ of Texas library. Found the Hassan ref but could not find the others. I have placed a request for them and will look at the JSTOR thingie tonight.

It is my assessment that you have selectively quoted Hassan. On Page 362 he does two things:

1. He tries to shed doubt on the number of forced converts in Coorg by citing population figures that are nearly half a century after the Coorg incident
2. He also tries to JUSTIFY and whitewash the conversions as "punitive measures against those who rebelled against him".

However, I have found 2 other refs that say another story. They are

"The Real Tipu" by H.D. Sharma and "Tipu Sultan X'Rayed" by I.M. Muthanna (Correction the Muthanna ref is unreliable Hkelkar 12:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC))

About Coorg, he goes (p 24-25) that there was no first rebellion. He first warned the Coorgi that, if they rebelled they would be forcibly converted. He then attacked and forcibly converted them anyway. This differs from the Hassan interpretation that there was a rebellion first, then conversion as a punitive measure.

Both of them provide citations for their assertions. Furthermore, Sharma asserts that there was not one but SEVERAL mass conversions perpetrated by him (Chpt 5 Sharma):

1. in 1786 he declared himself Padishah and ordered that his name be substituted for Shah Alam in Qutbas
2. In 1788 he conquered Malabar and stayed for 3months. He started a systematic campaign for forcibly converting Hindus to Islam. To prove this he cites sources that indicates that he appointed an official "converter" called a Shaikh-ul-Islam in each province. This chap would hire thugs and go around villages kidnapping Hindus and reciting the Quran to them at knifepoint, then eventually converting them. and
3. This was primarily done to the Nair Hindus in the region, including in Coorg
4. Later, the Nairs and other Hindus rebelled against this atrocity and Tipu returned from S'patnam, then he re-instated the forced conversions as a punitive measure.

The methods were definitely systematic he:

1. Forced beef into their mouths
2. Had Nair children raped
3. Slaughtered the Nair king
4. Performed Necrophiliac acts on the corpse
5. Hanged the clerics
6. destroyed a total of 8000 temples in the region

Also, read Tipu's letter dated 29th Nov 1792 translated on Sharma P44-45, clearly indicating that he had intended to instigate an organized campaign of forced conversions. The two authors Sharma (Update today:Muthanna is unreliable though he does support Sharma's claims Hkelkar 12:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC) ) further go on to state that Tipu's disdain for Hindus manifested in the fact that he ranked hisarmy according to Muslim Castes, with Sayyids,Shaikhs>Pathans,Mughals>Hindus.

Furthermore, (p66), Kiramani testified that the Sultan's "caprice, fanaticism and spirit of innovation increased with his misfortunes. [In 1792], he developed a great aversion to Brahmins, Hindus and other tribes and he did not consider any but the people of Islam to be his friends, and, therefore, on all accounts, his chief object was to promote and provide for them. At this time he tried to eliminate the Hindu worship from his territory.He confiscated funds from the temples being intended to balance the loss of revenue derived so far from intoxicating substances, the production of which he has banned earlier."

He goeson to showcase how Tipu changed the names of towns from Darvidian names to Urdu ones.He destroyed Calicut because it was named after Kali, then depopulated the surrounding areas to repopulate the renamed town of "Ferozhabad".The Hindus "returned Jubilant" when the town was liberated.

p72

"Since commerce as well as the banking were in the hands of the Hindus, they were ruined [by his "Islamized reforms"].This could have been the deliberate intention of the Sultan. This policy of the ruination of the Hindus was similar [to that of] Alau-d-din (Khilji) of Delhi."

There is more in this book that offers a perspective distinctly different from Hassan or Habib. I will cite from here as time progresses, including the refs that he provides.Hkelkar 21:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

All of the above is based on my first look into the book. I will, of course, elaborate as time progresses. I have borrowed the Sharma book but not the Habib book (as I am at quota) but can, of course, revisit the library and fact-check further.Hkelkar 22:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

They sound like charming books. I've had too much marking to do today and haven't had a chance to get to the Indian Institute. However, neither of these books is listed on OLIS (the Oxford University Electronic Library Catalogue). Tipu Sultan X'rayed is in the British Library, The Real Tipu is not, but I shall not be going to London for a while and frankly I have better things to do. There are several other books by both authors available in the Indian Institute, so I might have a look at them. I have my own suspicions as to why the Indian Institute (one of the two leading libraries of South Asian Studies in Britain) hasn't bothered to acquire either of the titles you've cited, but I shall keep them to myself for the time being. I notice that none of their books is published by a reputable, peer-reviewed academic press. I should also like to know what their sources are for the assertions they make. Hasan's book has an impressive bibliography, if you care to look. I agree that some of his judgments are open to question, but overall he is a conscientious scholar (and unlike most of those who have written about Tipu knows Persian, the crucial language for historical sources in this period). His work remains the standard biography of Tipu: he does not deny that some forced conversions took place, you will notice, only that the numbers have been exaggerated and that these and other acts need to be seen in the wider context of Tipu's religious policy, which was largely pragmatic and not consistently anti-Hindu. I think his use of the Coorg population figures is justified: India's population grew between those dates. In any case 70,000 is an absurd number - as absurd as the assertion that he destroyed 8,000 temples. How on earth do you think he could have ruled a largely non-Muslim kingdom if he behaved in this way? (I really think you should read Brittlebank). This is what I mean when I talk about modern-day communalism being projected back into the past, and I do not think that judgment makes me a "fanatic", as you were kind enough to describe me earlier.Sikandarji 23:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The Sharma book IS published by a reputable institution called Banaras Hindu University. ever heard of it? It's one of the "Big ten" schools in India, right below the IIT's. Shaarma himself is a prof of BHU and not some Hindutva politician or communalist. His bibiliography in the book includes close to 200 references across the timeline from Tipu Sultan to today. It contains photographs and transcripts of authenticated documents which he had translated by BHU profs. (both Persian and Marathi). His bibiliography includes:

1. Asiatic Annual Register for 1799
2. Memoirs of Tipu compiled by an EIC officer
3. The Bowring ref that Habib et al question
4. The CK Kareem ref that I cited in the article
5. Cambridge History of India Vol 5 1929
6. "The Mappilas of Malabar" by S.F Dale 1980
7. The Malabar and Anjengo Gazeteer by Innes and Evans in 1908
8. Muslims of British India by P. hardy 1972
9. Imperial Gazeteer Vol 18 (another part of YOUR ref only)
10. M Kareem: sources of the History of the Nawabs of the carnatic, Madras Univ 1944
11. A survey of Kerala history by Menon 1967
12. R Miller, "Mappila Muslims of Kerala", 1976
13. The Mohibul Hassan book of yours
14. The rise and fall of EIC by R. Mukherjee, Monthly review press, NY 1972
15. Mysore Gazetteer by Lewis Rice (which P. Raja also uses) 1897
16. PKS Raja's works which Goel has also used
17. Muslim sources like Tuzak-i-Walajahi of Burhan Ibn Hassan tr into English by S Muhammad Hussein Nainar 1939
18. The Wilks ref that Habib/Hassan contest

Good Enough?Hkelkar 23:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Plus, the Perry Castaneda Library of the University of Texas is among the biggest libraries in North America, with an entire floor devoted to Indian history and culture. It is completely non-partisan, with many sources, microfilm copies of old documents, newspapers (I saw an old microfilm of Ananda Bazar Patrika that detailed the Noakhali Pogrom of the 40s by Subodh Ghosh) and lots of other neat stuff.

Oh yes, it's quite a library all right.Hkelkar

See for yourself:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/ http://utdirect.utexas.edu/lib/utnetcat/full.WBX?search_type=FL&search_text=%40+TK++REAL+TIPU+%23&next_action=N&next_record_brn=005834811&loc_display_type=V

Hkelkar 23:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, there's even a wikipedia article on it:

Perry-Castañeda Library

Hkelkar 23:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The low-down on PCL: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/pcl/history/index.html Lis of libraries in the United States with UT ranked quite high: http://www.libraryspot.com/lists/listlargestlibs.htm

Yeah, so try to avoid sullying the name of one of the finest bloody libraries in the continent.

Go longhorns!!!Hkelkar 23:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware I'd sullied the name of any library, but let it pass. I've often had occasion to use the Perry-Castaneda Library's online map collection: it's a fine institution. And of course I've heard of BHU. Politeness costs nothing you know, even if you are American. What sort of cricket team have you got over there? You know there's only one game that counts....;0) Sikandarji 23:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not American at all.100% pure unadulterated Desi right here. But I am a student at UT.Yes, we do have a longhorn cricket team (mostly Desis and a couple of West Indian bowlers). But football rocks (not the girly-girly soccer, but AMERICAN football).Hkelkar 23:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Didn't care for it much when I lived in the States - but Rugby now - twice as violent but without the cissy padding and helmets. Great to watch but I've always hated actually having to play. Cricket for me every time, whether in the UK, India or Pakistan (thank goodness they take it seriously on the Subcontinent). I don't like football/soccer either. At least we have something in common.Sikandarji 23:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Dubious Tag

My objection is to the source - that collection edited by Goel is not objective scholarship, as is clear from the passage I cited above which is taken from the Raja article (and that's one of the more restrained ones). It does not come from a reputable academic publisher, was not subject to peer-review and used emotional and abusive language throughout. It should not be given the same weight as the work of serious scholars. Sikandarji 14:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)::That Hayat Khan garbage is ciot

I'd missed this - it has a section entitled "DANCE OF THE ISLAMIC SATAN" - this sort of poisonous rubbish has no place on wikipedia - and the Muthanna book falls into the same category. Sikandarji 14:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The same thing can be said for Irfan Habib as well, not objective scholarship but motivated by partisaqn Marxxist/Islamist bias. Muthana was the key scholar behind the Karnataka state school history curriculum and so is notable enough to warrant inclusion. Your personal likes/dislikes are irrelevant here.Hkelkar 20:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Plus, Muthanna is not used as a sole source, it is backed up by Prof. Sharma of BHU, also a notable scholar as I have established.Hkelkar 20:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

A Marxist\Islamist bias? Do you have any idea how idiotic that sounds? You may not be a historian, but I'd have thought you might know that Marxists tend to be atheists, as Habib most certainly is. One might disagree with his interpretations, as one can with any historian, but he's not peddling hate like Goel and this PCN Raja character - they're not even interested in being objective, that pamphlet is pure Islamophobe polemic. This has got nothing to do with my "personal" likes and dislikes - I've told you, I've seen this tactic before: a lazy intellectual relativism which claims all "sources" to be of equal value despite their origin, reliability or obvious bias. Habib was a Professor of History at Aligarh, his credentials and status as a leading historian of South Asia are not in doubt. Your equation of his work with a piece using the expression "DANCE OF THE ISLAMIC SATAN" is simply ludicrous. Goel is going, and if necessary I will take this to arbitration. Sikandarji 22:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, not buying it. Marxism and Islam have many concepts in common. The only major difference is in the issue of god, but a lot of social constructs of Marxist and Islamic society are virtually identical.

Go ahead and take it to arbcom.Just like Habib, both scholars I have cited are eminent scholars, one of BHU and one of the Karnataka curriculum. Point of fact, Banaras Hindu University has a higher ranking in India than Aligarh Muslim University. Both parties have been cited and if you try to whitewash it any further then arbcom will be necessary. I have no doubt that I will win.Hkelkar 22:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the references to the Raja article as it is unacceptably biased. I'm reserving judgment on Sharma and Muthanna as they seem to have greater scholarly credentials. If you think Marxism and Islam are in any way similar then you clearly know very little about either. Sikandarji 23:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That's funny, for there is sufficient scholarly consensus regarding the social similarities between the two. Islam is not just a religion. It is a political, cultural and social system and bears similarities with Marxism in that respect. Marx himself was inspired by the Sharia to write his Manifesto.Hkelkar 23:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, where do we start? Firstly if your sole criterion is that both are a "political, cultural and social system" then you might as well say that "Irfan Habib has an Islamic\Hindu bias" (hey! they're both "politicial, cultural and social systems") but I don't imagine that would suit your purposes. In any case you're wrong. I'm glad you acknowledged that Marxism and Islam have, shall we say, a difference over "the issue of god". Now some might suggest that equating arguably the world's most totalising religion with its leading atheist ideology and suggesting that a historian can be biased by both at the same time is a trifle odd. God is quite important to religions, as you may be aware. Last time I looked he was not essential to the working out of the forces of dialectical materialism. However, the differences do not end there. Marxism is not a "political, cultural and social system" like Islam. It is a particular theory of human history and society, deemed "scientific" by its supporters, which sees a progressive determinism in the development of humankind as one economic class takes over from another, ending in a socialist utopia. It is a theory of history and a prediction of the future, but the point is that it doesn't matter whether or not people who are convinced by this (I'm not) do anything or just sit around waiting for it happen: because it's supposed to be inevitable. Marxism does not tell people how they should live, what they should read, how they should dress, what they should eat, who they should marry, how they should drink a glass of water: Islam does, because it is indeed a "political, cultural and social system." Marxism is a way of interpreting human history and the world as we find it - Islam too is a means of interpreting the world (with very different premises and conclusions), but it is also an individual guide to living in it. And where on earth did you get the idea that Marx was "inspired by the Sharia" to write the Communist Manifesto? What "Sharia" would this have been? Hanafi, Hanbali, Salafi? What publication might he have used? Colonial rulers thought you could reduce the Sharia (which means "true path" in Arabic) to a written law code, which is how they ended up with the weird hybrid of Anglo-Muhammadan law, but they were wrong. It's not just that there is no evidence in his writing that Marx could have been influenced by Sharia or Fiqh - there are no sources he could have used. There are plenty of things you could read to correct this erroneous notion, but for the time being just look at Islam and Marxism and then see if you can reconcile the two. Sikandarji 08:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop with the sermonizing. Wikipedia is not a place for Islamist propaganda. They should have a rule for that. I find it interesting that editors like you attack Goel etc for "pseudoscholarship" yet don;t seem to have a problem with cranks and kooks like Hayat Khan and keep citing his poisonous nonsense like this that suggests that pakistanis are racially white and Indian racially "Negro". Islamist double standards, hard at work.Hkelkar 08:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Besides, Islam and Marxism can be easily reconciled as much by action as by ideology. Read some newspapers.Hkelkar 08:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? How can anything I've written be described as "Islamist" propaganda? I'm not a Muslim anyway, hard as this may be for you to believe, unlike you I just know something about Islam. When did I cite Hayat Khan? What on earth have his repulsive views got to do with me? Of course there are nasty extremists amongst both Muslims and Hindus. The difference is that Goel was actually cited in this article. All my citations are from reputable academic sources, but you seem incapable of seeing beyond the fact that some of the authors have Muslim names. I find your allegations extremely offensive. Sikandarji 09:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The Hayat Khan trash is cited ALL OVER WIKIPEDIA. Yet, where is your holier-then-thou scholastic outrage at that?Huh?Hkelkar 09:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, so your argument is "They do nasty stuff, so I can too". That's the logic of the playground. I've never come across any of Hayat Khan's stuff, but I can assure you that if I had I would have removed it. You can call reasoned argument and opposition to mindless bigotry "holier-then-thou scholastic outrage" (sic) if you want. I'm still waiting for an apology. Sikandarji 09:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I pointed out a patent double standard at work here. Besides, you have not demonstrated any extremist bias on the part of Goel beyond a reasonable doubt, just a partisan one, and I have pointed out that an equal partisanship exists on the part of Habib/Hassan/Ahmed/whoever.Hkelkar 09:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You made an extremely unpleasant personal attack on me which was wholly unwarranted by anything I've written: you then accuse me of double standards because I removed an obviously biased source, by providing a link to something by an author I'd never even heard of and accused me of condoning his views! If Hayat Khan had been cited somewhere in this article you might have had a point, but he isn't, thank goodness. Instead you now resort to the old trick of claiming that a polemicist like Sita Ram Goel deserves to be taken as seriously as highly respected scholars like Hasan and Habib. I can only attribute your dislike of their work to the fact that they have Muslim names, and this worries me. The precise text at issue is the article by P.C.N. Raja (whoever he may be), which I have cited above to demonstrate its clear bias. Or do you think "Dance of the Islamic Satan" is a neutral way of describing a historical event? Sikandarji 09:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

But there is a "Shaitan" in Islam and he lives in Gehennem and I believe does a fair bit of dancing. I did not violate wikipedia npa policy in any way shape or form. Maybe my comment was a bit incivil and if you feel hurt because of it then I'm sorry about that. However, you have hardly been the poster boy for "Tehezeeb" with your "Mr Wikilawyers" and what not.Hkelkar 09:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You accused me of spreading "Islamist propaganda" and of sharing the racist views of Hayat Khan. I'd call that a personal attack, all the more irritating from being founded on ignorance and a seeming inability to comprehend the meaning of what I've written. I've certainly been guilty of sarcasm, but it's a tool I've found quite effective in the past when dealing with bigoted obscurantism masquerading as reasoned argument - it provokes people into revealing what they really think. In this case I appear to have succeeded. Go and read the Raja article - see what he is referring to in using such language, try, if you can, to appreciate the tone and the slippery use of unreferenced sources throughout. Then come back and tell me it is reliable. Sikandarji 10:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have also found sarcasm as a useful tool to deal with whitewashers, POV pushers and editors who carefully skew articles to further an extremist bias (got tired of reading reports of their comrades being bombed flat I suppose). I have succeeded before with this Mujeerkhan guy and it I do not see a failure on my part here. Many of Raja/Goel's claims have been backed up by scholarly sources as I have demonstrated. Granted that Goel can be a bit polemical in his tone. I never said he was non-partisan.However, the mere fact that his claims (minus the polemic) are backed up by scholarly sources suggests that he may be cited with qualification. Perhaps something like "Sita Ram Goel makes similar assertions" or whatever. He is certainly notable enough to have his views stated with qualification now.Hkelkar 10:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, now I've got you bang to rights. I finally had a look at Brittlebank's book, and guess what she had to say on Page 1 of the introduction:

"there had been published a particularly vicious diatribe against the Mysore Ruler entitled Tipu Sultan X-rayed, written by an Indo-Canadian, originally from Coorg, with a foreword by P.N. Oak. The work had been produced under the aegis of the Institute for rewriting Indian History." Kate Brittlebank Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy. Islam and Kingship in a Hindu Domain (Delhi: Oxford University Press) 1997 p1

Very interesting. Now given that you yourself said above that "PN Oak's pseudoscientific rubbish was dismissed long ago as a reliable source on wikipedia, largely because NOT ONE REPUTABLE SCHOLAR backs up any of his outlandish claims at all", I think that means that passages based on Muthanna's work need to come out of the article, don't you? Curious that you felt no need to tell me this when you originally brought this book up, given that presumably you knew, having read it (as I said, the Bodleian doesn't have a copy). More curious still that you have cited the book as being by I.M. Muthanna, who is indeed quite a distinguished historian of Karnataka, whereas it is in fact by I.H. Muthanna, who is an NRI with a grievance, as you appear to be. What is this, chance? Sikandarji 11:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I just checked this claim and verify that it is true. I hadn't seen the intro previously and you are right. The Muthanna ref should be removed and I will do so now.However, the Sharma and Rao references are still admissible. the Muthanna refs merely supported the claims made by Sharma. Anyone associated with PN Oak is unreliable and should go. Bear in mind that neither Sharma nor Rao mention Oak in any way, shape or form.Hkelkar 11:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

In fact, have I actually elaborated on any of Muthanna's claims? I do not recall it. As far as I remember, I did not make any exclusive attributes to Muthanna. Bear in mind that even pseudoscholars can be right sometimes, though they are uncitable nonetheless.If I have attributed any of my assertions to Muthanna (the NRI dude) then strike those as unreliable. Any attributions to Sharma (which is mainly what I have been reading and citing), together with the Rao ref, and others that I will get, is fine per RS.Hkelkar 11:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed all citations to Muthanna and made striked corrections to my statements to that effect. I'm afraid you STILL don't have me "($insert quaint Britishism)", as most of my sources were cited from Sharma and, more recently, Rao with Muthanna as backup.Muthanna goes, but Sharma and Rao still stay. Too bad. The caves are still being bombed.Hkelkar 12:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Not quite sure what you mean by caves - I'd have thought you have more of them in Texas than we do in Oxford. I have revised the article using some new (and reliable) sources. Hope you like it - I have not deleted anything which refers to Sharma or Rao, nor have I attempted to whitewash Tipu. Sikandarji 14:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I should also add that my having got you "bang to rights" (and if you think that's a "quaint Britishism" you should get out more) refers to your ability to use and cite sources. I suspect that you knew perfectly well that the Muthanna book was inspired by Oak and that it was written by someone other than the I.M. Muthanna who organised the Karnataka curriculum: your reasons for concealing these facts are pretty obvious. However, let us assume that you acted in good faith - what does that say about your ability to cite accurately (that rather crucial transposed H & M) or to recognise the value and\or impartiality of a source? Even if you hadn't read the introduction as you claimed, if you didn't realise from the tone and content that this was just another crazed product of the Oak school.....I rest my case. Sikandarji 11:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith and stop being incivil. This is your final warning. I removed the muthanna ref, and I was genuinely ignorant of this until you pointed it out. I was reasonable enough to contend that you were right. However, you are using this argument to try and worm your way into removing the Sharma ref which, I have established, is notable, and whitewash the matter completely, which is intellectually dishonest on your part and not worthy of the scholarship that you seem to exude with your Victorian pomposity and bombastic and condescending perorations.Hkelkar 11:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You're warning me? Very interesting. An administrator might be interested to read your remarks about caves being bombed, as well as your hysterical allegations that I am spreading "Islamist propaganda" whenever you find you've been proved wrong. Where, exactly, do you think I have been intellectually dishonest? Pompous I may be (indeed probably am), but so long as I can get my facts right this label doesn't bother me particularly. As I pointed out, even if one does assume good faith it doesn't say much for your historical training or your ability to make impartial judgments. I never proposed removing the Sharma reference or the material based on it, nor have I done so. In what way do my changes constitute a whitewash? Where Moraes or Brittlebank confirm the accounts of Tipu Sultan's forced conversions and other violence I have noted that and cited them. And if you feel you're being condescended to, then maybe you should try editing articles on topics you actually know something about.Sikandarji 11:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Kelkar has this entertaining habit of reading up on wikipedia guidelines, and then using them in a manner that (if this was a court of law) would be characterized as vexatious litigation. Won't work, Kelkar. Sikandarji, just take it to the arbcomm and leave it at that. And revert his edits as you see them, he doesn't have anything constructive and unbiased to contribute, that I can see srs 12:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. If you remove well-sourced edits you are committing vandalism and will be dealt with accordingly. I already took this matter to mediation and user Martinp23 agreed with my edits completely so pardon me if I don't bend over and get beheaded by this fidayeenist campaign. Go ahead, take it to whomever you please. I'm not going to become another Daniel Perl.Hkelkar 12:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't use that sort of language if I were you. To me it just seems childish. Some people might find such insinuations offensive. And for the last time, I'm not a Muslim, let alone some sort of terrorist sympathiser as you appear to imagine anyone who disagrees with you must be. You're right, safe on the University of Texas Campus, you are unlikely ever to become another Daniel Pearl. Stop being so melodramatic. Sikandarji 17:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Padishah

The Padishah declaration and his motives behind the French alliance are also mentioned in Sharma's book Chapter 5. In addition, pages 64 and 65 summarize letters written by Tippu to Zaman Shah of Afghanistan that demonstrate his intent to create a rigid Islamic state with himself as Padishah.Hkelkar 09:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr Khelkar, You are trying to bend the article on your thinking terminonlogy and whoever tries to edit anything you revert that and say that it is bias and propaganda. Well to the solution, I thing only 10 or 11 lines is enough for Tipu "so called" relegious intolerance and not a poem of 50 lines thats crab! just expalining each person opinion will just increase the space of the article. I will try to put both views together so no parties will have any problems(in about 12-13 lines to the max)..What do you think —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geniusguy123 (talk • contribs) .

I disagree. I think that the compromise that Sikanderji and I have reached is fine. This issue is a central debate regarding Tipu Sultan and it must be featured accordingly.We have cited a representative cross section of views concerning this matter, and not the whole shabang, as it were. The section looks okay and relatively non-partisan right now so please don;t mess with it. Oh, and PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS. Thanks.Hkelkar 04:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "dont mess" anything, anyone can use wikipedia and change with proper references.The section is not OK as it is 'too lenghty' and I will have to approach an admin regarding this matter.you cannot stop me from editing, did anyone try to stop you when you edited anything and I think you were free to edit.and please dont dont mess with it.Please act in GOOD FAITH, CARE AND DILIGENCE! Geniusguy123 04:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You're free to edit whatever the hell you want. You can't remove any sourced edits as that would be Wikipedia:Vandalism and will be dealt with accordingly. You must adhere to WP:RS and WP:V in all your edits. Rest assured, I will be monitoring them diligently and will unceremoniously revert any edits that do not adhere to these policies. If you adhere to them then you will have my eternal thanks and respect as a fellow wikipedian.Hkelkar 04:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your information, but you should also see that vandalism is not regarded when you decrease the article which is "too lengthy" I have found that you were blocked several times for vandalising, I think it is high time since you have clear idea what vandalism actually is. WP:RS says "On many historical topics there are memoirs and oral histories that specialists consult with caution, for they are filled with stories that people wish to remember — and usually recall without going back to the original documentation. Editors should use them with caution" and "Services such as Google Books often have poorly OCR-ed tex"I have found that many of references are from journals or from books through which a wikipedian cannot actaully verify whether they are availiable online or not and this means that they can or not be relaible! WP:V "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source.

Hope this helps, my dear wikipedian! Geniusguy123 05:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't lie/ I was never blocked for vandalism but for PA's. removal of ANY reliable sources is vandalism. memorize that, okay?Hkelkar 05:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Plus, my sources in this article are published goo-old-fashioned paper books that are right beside me on my desk, not "Google books". Don't try to deflect the issue and worm your way into vandalizing.Hkelkar 05:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Freedom Fighter"

Mujeer, don't you think this is a slightly anachronistic term? Tipu ruled as a despot, like all his contemporaries. He certainly wanted to drive the British out of India but had no qualms about allying with the French. To use a post-independence term which entitles people to special quota on railway bookings seems a little tendentious. I'm also puzzled by the reference - Brittlebank's book only has one volume, and I don't believe she uses the term "freedom fighter" at all except to describe how Tipu is seen in nationalist historiography. Sikandarji 12:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Mum about his legacy

Not a single word about his legacy in the entire article. Like the shah Jahan article which deals half its space to dubious sexual conduct ignoring the rule and legacy that most history books would say, this one too deals more about his controversy and other trivial matters than about his legacy or any other important matters. No one even bothered to add up some images either, and that is quite shocking considering that so many have been pushing their POVs on here. Idleguy 18:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

All modern books on this subject spell the name: Tipu. See: Kate Brittlebank, "Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy: Islam and Kingship in a Hindu Domain", Oxford University Press; Richard Davis, "Lives of Indian Images", Princeton University Press, 1997; Linda Colley, "Captives", Jonathan Cape, 2002. It seems strange that name is spelt "Tippu" in this article. Title of article is Tipu Sultan. Of course 19th century sources usually use spelling "Tippoo". Mick gold 15:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Tippu Sultan was a native of Mysore, and Tippu Sultan is the native spelling and pronunciation of his name. Just because his name was incorrectly spelled in the past does not mean that it should not be spelled correctly now. Name is very sensitive issue. Please don't mess with it if you don't understand it. Please. Kanchanamala 18:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I respect your perspective, but are you saying that all modern historians have got it wrong, inc Kate Brittlebank who has done extensive original research? I'm uneasy that Wikipedia should be at odds with all contemorary historiography on his name. Mick gold 00:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me say one more time. Please don't mess with something you don't understand. Leave it to the natives. Please don't tell the natives how to pronounce and spell their native names.Kanchanamala 03:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The websites of the Tipu Sultan Museums in Srirangapatna and Bangalore [33] [34] [35] spell the name as 'Tipu'. Perhaps you could explain why not only has every modern historian writing about this topic got it wrong, but also all the "natives" (as you put it) in official positions. Your sole response appears to be blind insistence that you (as a native) know best, while ignoring what every contemporary historian and museum curator is doing. Mick gold 09:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Name is a very personal and sensitive issue. Tippu Sultan was a native of Mysore, and Tippu Sultan is the native pronunciation and native spelling. Leave it to the natives. There are some areas where mom knows best. The area of native pronunciation and native spelling of native names is like a couple's bedroom. You should leave matters related to that bedroom to the couple to sort out. Others should not pry into their bedroom affairs. You will be well-advised to leave the spelling of Tippu Sultan's name to the natives.Kanchanamala 19:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a native too, and i also spell the name as "Tipu Sultan". We should follow the correct english accent in of terms with regards to english language and not with mix hindustani and english. Perhaps you should remember your english grammer classes.

"Tippu" is in native Kannada. Preferring Tippu Sultan for any other variant spelling is exactly like preferring Kolkata for Calcutta, Kanpur for Cawnpore, Pune for Poona, and Bengaluru for Bangalore.Kanchanamala 09:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

You cant spell British as "Angrez", Epypt as "Misr" as this is known to the locals but not to the outside world who would be unaware of the terms and this would create confusion as it has been done now. Indiangem 05:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

My above response belongs here. Forgive me.Kanchanamala 09:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Your sole response is to repeat "Leave it to the natives" ad nauseam. Can you explain why the natives running museums in Srirangapatna and Bangalore spell the name 'Tipu'?

There are Wikipedia conventions of transliteration of indic languages. See [36]

Naming and transliteration

Each Indic article should be named according to its primary transliteration, if this can be clearly established.

Primary transliteration

A word has a primary transliteration if at least 75% of all references in wider usage have the same transliteration. Primary transliterations may sometimes be less accurate than other transliterations.

Clearly 'Tipu' is the transliteration of more than 75% of references to this person in modern usage. Are you saying you do not accept Wikipedia conventions of indic transliteration? Could you possibly write a reply that does not consist of the words 'Leave it to the natives' ? Mick gold 09:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

There are hardly ever any unambiguous transliterations from "bijectively phonetic" Indian scripts to the more ambiguous Roman script. There are plenty of ways pronounce "Tippu", which will all be, of course, written differently in Indian scripts. For example, in the Devanagari script, तिप्पु टिप्पु टिप्पू तिप्पू, तिप्यु, टिप्यु , etc. could all be transliterated as "Tippu" in the Roman script. So, although Tippu might be some improvement over Tipu, it's probably not big enough to justify it's use over the more common Tipu. deeptrivia (talk) 09:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Please read my above comment which I have just made.Kanchanamala 09:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Mick gold, the Wikipedia source cited by you says, "Personal names should generally be romanized ... when it is necessary to accurately or unambiguously transliterate from original text, or to indicate original pronunciation."Kanchanamala 10:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no wish to get bogged down in an edit/revert war, so I'll leave this matter. I can understand that the issue of transliteration of indic names does have wider implications, both in cultural & political terms. I still feel that the change from 'Bombay' to 'Mumbai', and the change from 'Calcutta' to 'Kolkata' were important changes, supported by the majority of Indian people. By spelling 'Tipu' as 'Tippu' you are simply ensuring that the Wikipedia article is spelt differently from every Indian website I've looked at that deals with this historic ruler of Mysore, and that Wikipedia is out of step with 99% of contemporary scholars & historians. As deeptrivia says above, it is not significant enough to justify its use over the much more common 'Tipu'. Mick gold 09:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether we accept one side of the argument or the other, shouldn't the article be consistent in its spelling? I personally believe that Tipu is the correct transliteration to use. Not because it is better, but because that is the wikipedia convention, which says: "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article". I think the article should be edited to reflect that. Aslamt 02:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

That is my point: wikipedia convention says "A word has a primary transliteration if at least 75% of all references in wider usage have the same transliteration." American historians, European historians, Indian museum websites all use Tipu. All that Kanchanamala can say is "Leave it to the natives. There are some areas where mom knows best. The area of native pronunciation and native spelling of native names is like a couple's bedroom. You should leave matters related to that bedroom to the couple to sort out. Others should not pry into their bedroom affairs. You will be well-advised to leave the spelling of Tippu Sultan's name to the natives." This is not a sound basis for writing a work of reference. Wikipedia aticles should abide by the primary transliteration convention. Mick gold 21:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It is also absurd how the title of the article is spelled differently from the rest of the article. Someone needs to take initiative and get rid of this tyrannical behavior. There is little or no rationale for keeping the current spelling of Tippu. --Aslamt 12:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Here we go again. Aslam, the name is native Kannada. It is neither Arabic, nor Pakistani Urdu. Even Edward Orme, the portrait painter, spelled the name correctly with two 'p's. The spelling Tippu indicates original pronunciation, and is therefore in conformity with Wikipedia naming conventions.Kanchanamala 10:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please show me where I claimed for it to have been Arabic or Urdu. I really believe you when you say that the name is native Kannada and original pronunciation would be to have it with two p's. That is not even the argument here. The argument is, the rest of the world, including native sources, museums, scholarly publications, and encyclopedias tend to spell it with one p. The sources you mentioned are exceptions and not the rule. Wikipedia convention calls for adopting the more commonly known spelling. Tipu is, by all standards, the more commonly known spelling. And regardless, the spelling should be consistent with the title of the article (which still spells it with one p. I wonder what has kept you from moving the page.) --Aslamt 17:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Aslam: The issue has already been debated at great length. Just read through the proceedings. The spelling Tippu is in conformity with the Wikipedia naming conventions which has been cited above somewhere by Mick gold [sic]. The convention says, and I quote, "Personal names should generally be romanized ... to indicate original pronunciation." That settles the matter. The spelling Tippu indicates original pronunciation in Kannada. By the way, the title of the article should be changed to Tippu to make it consistent with the article. Thanks for pointing that out.Kanchanamala 03:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know which proceedings you're talking about. If you mean the ones in which you keep asking everyone to leave it to the natives, then I have read them, and I still don't agree with them. In any case, you're missing another important part that Mick gold has been pointing out and that you refuse to discuss. The convention states:

If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works. This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. For example, Christopher Columbus, Venice.

The convention for Indic languages states:

Each Indic article should be named according to its primary transliteration, if this can be clearly established. ... A word has a primary transliteration if at least 75% of all references in wider usage have the same transliteration. Primary transliterations may sometimes be less accurate than other transliterations.

Unless you can discuss all issues at once and prove that Tippu Sultan is indeed the primary well-known transliteration accepted by all sources and adopted by encyclopedias, I don't understand how this discussion is settled; and more than that, I don't understand how we can have this one-sided discussion where you dismiss everything on the rationale that you are a native. --Aslamt 09:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Aslam, if you are itching for some scholarly debate, find something useful to do. Don't waste your time and mine in trying to prove something which is obvious. And stop being silly.Kanchanamala 10:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

First, it's Aslamt, not Aslam. You've violated both wikipedia policies of assuming good faith and no personal attacking. If argumentation was a function of name-calling, then you'd be a winner. Unfortunately for you, it is not the case; and being as that is the case, and this is wikipedia where you have to prove your point by proper argumentation, I will go ahead and perform a thorough search and replace on the article. The point has been thoroughly proven by conventions and by the fact that official museums as pointed out above use the spelling "Tipu" (which, to us rational people on wikipedia, are more authentic sources of what "natives" have chosen to spell the name as than what you claim it to be). You have continued to avoid the real discussion and just pursued a circular argument over and over again. If you have an argument other than, "I am a native and you are silly", please bring it to our attention, otherwise I will have to take the final step. Thank you. --Aslamt 06:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Aslamt, now you know how it feels when your name is not correctly spelled. Tippu is the name of a Kannadiga, and Kannadigas are sensitive about it as you are sensitive about your name. Wikipedia is not insensitive, you are. Tippu is in accordance with Wikipedia naming conventions which allows a name to be spelled "to indicate original pronunciation". Can't you take no for an answer? Stop bullying me. You don't own Wikipedia, the rules do, and I have followed the rules. Now get off my back.Kanchanamala 08:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No one is on anyone's back. I have the right to have my questions answered. You didn't answer my questions. Please read the rules again that are here and here. You just picked one rule that was convenient for you. You can't pick and choose between rules. Similar discussion has taken place at Mecca where the natives wanted it spelled Makkah because that is how the government of Saudi Arabia spells it, but the decision was against the natives because most English speakers are familiar with the spelling Mecca. So stop harping about natives and come down to facts and prove to me why it should be spelled Tippu; and not Tippoo, or Tipoo, or Tipu, or whatever. I'll give you the answer, we want to use Tipu because it is the transliteration more widely adopted by encyclopedias, books, contemporary scholarly works, museums, etc. And please stop assuming that I just want to annoy you, because I really don't care about you enough to want to do that. --Aslamt 18:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Mick gold, even Sir Walter Scott spelled the name correctly with two 'p's. What seems to be your problem? Now, don't get my Irish up, okay?Kanchanamala 10:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem. The issue I'm raising is that all modern scholarship on this subject spells the name Tipu. See: Kate Brittlebank, "Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy: Islam and Kingship in a Hindu Domain", Oxford University Press; Richard Davis, "Lives of Indian Images", Princeton University Press, 1997; Linda Colley, "Captives", Jonathan Cape, 2002. Indian museum websites spell the name Tipu. The title of this article is Tipu Sultan. You seem to assert that you can unilaterally change the spelling because you are native Kannada, but I do not think that is a principle Wikipedia would agree with. You invoke Sir Walter Scott, but he spells the name "Tippoo", which is the commonest spelling in 19th century British sources. Are you advocating we change all the spellings to Tippoo? The guiding convention has been quoted above by Aslamt:

If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works. This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. For example, Christopher Columbus, Venice.

If we cannot make any progress on this issue through reasoned discourse, perhaps we should try to advance it through a Wikipedia: Request for Comment. best wishes Mick gold 17:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I second that suggestion. --Aslamt 18:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Tippu is the proper spelling today in 2007, and the Wikipedia naming conventions allow it. Please don't get unnecessarily worked up. Let us use our time and energy on other things. There is no dearth of work in Wikipedia. Please.Kanchanamala 05:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

May I request any senior editor to consider changing the title of the article to Tippu Sultan.Kanchanamala 05:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I have created an RfC for this dispute. Please refer to the concerned section for further discussion on this matter. --Aslamt 05:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Why?Is this a ploy to somehow hide the reasons behind the compelling case I have made to adopt the correct spelling Tippu?Kanchanamala 18:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Ploy? This issue is not big enough to have a ploy behind it. We are not convinced by your "compelling case" and want a third-part opinion. Is that so hard to understand? ---Aslamt 19:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I've always learnt it as Tipu Sultan in my history books. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

True. Now let the future generations learn it correctly as Tippu Sultan. We should not insist on perpetuating a mistake.Kanchanamala 18:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Misleading parts in the introduction

This introduction is very fragmented and contains short sentences stacked on top of each other that make it sound quite awkward. Also, some of the sentences are placed so that they can unintentionally mislead the reader. For instance:

He was also a strongly religious man. He built a church, the first in Mysore, at the request of the French.

makes it sound as if he was Christian.

Another sentence that seems incomplete is about him being proficient in languages that he spoke, which should be extended to say exactly which languages he did speak. Aslamt 02:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Problem fixed.Kanchanamala 04:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Tippu and Pakistan

Yousaf465 has inserted a statement right at the top of this page that, "Tipu's grand children do have a link with Pakistan so don't link him with India only." 'subhaan-allah'. It can be safely assumed that most Pakistanis are descendants of ancestors who were not only Indians like Tippu, but were originally Hindus. With the creation of Pakistan out of India in 1947, Indians, who opted to live in Pakistan, certainly did not lose their proud Indian heritage. One should not lose sight of the fact, however, that there was no Pakistan during the time of Tippu Sultan. The history of Pakistan starts in August 1947. The cruel history was created, not by Muslim Indians, but by Indian Muslims. I strongly suggest that Yousaf's changes at the top of the page are reverted.Kanchanamala 19:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the offical history of Pakistan, Pakistan foundation were laid when first Indian converted to Islam.Although Pakistan was not created at that time but it still has close relations with it's forerunners.As he is a Figure india the same way he is considered a hero In Pakistan so there should be no objection if Pakistanis consier him hero and there should no objectioin by Pakistanis if indian consider him.User talk:Yousaf465

Yousaf Miya, this article is maintained by WikiProject India. If you wish to contribute to this article (or any other article), I am sure you are welcome to do so. But don't bring religious fanaticism into play here. Be reasonable and revert the change you have introduced at the top of the page before someone else does it for you. Insha'allah.Kanchanamala 00:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for Start Class

Just from a relatively quick assessment, there is some work that still needs to be done, especially with the sectioning. You have a huge number of sections, so many that the table of contents would likely be longer than what a typical user might find useful. I'd suggest reducing the number of sections by combinging some of them. For a more detailed peer review, please insert a request one here.

RfC: Spelling of Tippu vs. Tipu Sultan

This is a dispute about how the proper name "Tipu" or "Tippu" should be spelt in the article.

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• Most contemporary English sources; including local museums, books, encyclopedias, and other scholarly works choose to spell it "Tipu" and that is why it should be spelled that way. --Aslamt 05:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• The title of this article is Tipu Sultan. All modern scholarship on this subject spells the name: Tipu. See: Kate Brittlebank, "Tipu Sultan's Search for Legitimacy: Islam and Kingship in a Hindu Domain", Oxford University Press; Richard Davis, "Lives of Indian Images", Princeton University Press, 1997; Linda Colley, "Captives", Jonathan Cape, 2002. Indian museum websites spell the name Tipu [37] [38] [39]. It seems odd that name is spelt "Tippu" in this article. Mick gold 07:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• The spelling Tippu Sultan "indicates original pronunciation" allowed by Wikipedia naming conventions. "Tippu" is the pronunciation in Kannada. Tippu Sultan was the ruler of Mysore where Kannada was and still is spoken. Just because "Tippu" was misspelled as "Tipu" in the past should not prevent us from correcting it now. Moreover, it is not correct to say that "all modern scholarship on this subject spell the name: Tipu", "including ... encyclopedias", as evidenced by the use of the correct spelling "Tippu" by the 2007 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. The article is available at http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9072594/Tippu-Sultan Kanchanamala 23:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• I would go with my history books that spell it as Tipu. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• "Tippu" was the actual name of this king and I support for "Tippu". That is how his name is spelled in Karnataka, the place where Tippu is originally from, as evident in here.Gnanapiti 23:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• The proper forum for naming conventions issues is not requests for comment, but rather Wikipedia:Requested moves.

  Mick Gold improperly relies on the current name of the article in making his argument.

  OTOH, Kanchanamala misstates naming convention rules, which deal with spelling not with punctuation.

• The one thing that is certain is that variant spelling needs to be listed in the introduction, no matter which is used most of the time.
• Note also that Wikipedia:naming conventions#Controversial names specifically provide: The current title of a page is not intended to imply that either the title name is preferred or the alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles. The article title should also not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles. Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another. Gene Nygaard 04:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Combined.jpg

Image:Combined.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the ship named after this person ?

In the mid 19th century a ship called "Tippoo Sahib" visited Australia. Is it named after this person ? Eregli bob (talk) 08:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is. TheBlueKnight (talk) 07:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm deleting this

...as being essentially meaningless: "...who offered his blood to write the history of free India." Unless this man really did use his actual blood from his body to write the history of India, on an actual physical substance such as paper, papyrus, wood, or something that you can write on with blood. In which case I will humbly apologize and reinstate it.

Sugarbat (talk) 07:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

The article, especially its introduction, is decidedly not neutral. It reads like a fairy tale - and sentences like "he was otherwise a fair and just ruler" or "Tipu Sultan was a learned man and an able soldier. He was reputed to be a good poet. He was a devout Muslim. The majority of his subjects were Hindus and they were his staunch loyalists for he was a benevolent ruler." are not only decidedly un-historic, non-scientific - but downright ridiculous.

Many other users have commented on this issue before (see above).

I have thus inserted the neutrality warning. --Legalides (talk) 13:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added a POV tag to the top of this article. Much of article needs re-writing in a neutral point of view, the opening paragraph of the lead is/was particularly biased. I have attempted to restore some neutrality, but the article suffers from a lack of inline citations to back up a lot of the content. There may also be some issues with ownership of this article from some users. BarretBonden (talk) 16:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The article is being regularly reverted to what appears to be this version created on the 9 November 2008. This has deleted the many edits various users have added since, including my edits to try and create a more balanced point of view to the article. The lead section, as Legalides commented above, seems particularly biased. In the 9 November version it reads:

Tipu Sultan was a fascinating figure of 18th century, who offered his blood to write the history of free India. He had a vision and a mission in life. The vision was to make his people enlightened and prosperous, and mission was to liberate his land from the yoke of the colonials. His short but stormy rule is significant because of his view that only that life was worth living which would unfold the drama of human freedom, not only political freedom, but also social freedom, economic freedom, cultural freedom, and freedom from want, hunger, apathy, ignorance and superstition. His definition of State itself was organized energy for freedom.

This seems to have been copied directly from the citation at the end of the paragraph. The 9 November version also claims that historians who criticise Tipu are 'Marxist', 'right-wing' 'pro-hindutva' and 'propagandist', and dismisses all British authors as unreliable. In fact it appears to have removed any hint of criticism towards Tipu Sultan. Also, all tags requesting additional inline citations for information which may be questionable have been removed. I know that the Tipu is regarded as a hero and independence fighter by some Indians, but how about reaching some sort of compromise here instead of reverting the article? BarretBonden (talk) 18:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

This article appears to have several NPOV, and sourcing issues. Some opinions from impartial editors on these matters would be helpful. The editors involved in reverting this article to an older version do not appear willing to enter discussion on the talk page and I am concerned that this is becoming a disruptive edit war. BarretBonden (talk) 11:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

If the reverts continue without discussion here, I would suggest you submit the article for arbitration. The current version does seem to have significant non-neutral language Dialectric (talk) 11:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I've heard terrible tales of Tipu's bigotry against non-Muslims of Travancore while on a trip to Kerala. I, too, feel that this article does appear a bit one-sided-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 15:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Ravichandar84, Hearing stories of someone's bigotry(alone) wont be a reason to conclude non-neutrality Zencv ^{Lets discuss} 19:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I know that we cannot include something in the article simply based on hearsay but this is reason enough to search for sources which criticize Tipu Sultan. Almost all British writers of the era (i.e. late 18th and early 19th century) have sharply attacked Tipu Sultan as a bigot. Post-independence, these sources have been easily discarded as British propaganda. But I feel there is something more to it.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 02:38, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Atleast Tipu was certainly not such a noble soul as Gidvani's The Sword of Tipu Sultan portrays him-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 02:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources portraying his bigotry, that could be included, no doubt. But if you start with a judgement that post-independent Indian history is completely wrong on Tipu, you will only want to selectively look for wrong portraits of the subject. Also you can imagine how neutral and reliable the accounts of imperial Britain could have been about Tipu, when Tipu was their number one enemy. In anycase, the section on religious policies already contain quite a lot of sentences sharply critical of him being anti Hindu and anti Christian. If you think the article should look like a Sangh Parivar editorial on Tipu, that would be quite non neutral. Zencv ^{Lets discuss} 14:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I had found an NPOV tag which possibly indicates that someone is meddling with this article. This is one reason why I am stressing upon neutrality. Well, well, of course, British writers of the pre-independence period could have been biased. If that's the case, then please keep in mind that articles in Wikipedia need not necessarily depict the truth. The issue here is about which is more reliable and I feel that the British writers were more reliable. One reason is because they were eyewitness accounts, unlike post-independence histories of Tipu. Another is because, the authenticity of Bhagwan S. Gidvani's novel appears dubious as is evident here. And then, the campaign by the Sangh Parivar is not the only reason. Of course, the Sangh Parivar was only using existing writings by British writers for their own politcal agenda.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 11:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The right wing edit

Can somebody with the help of correct historic documents edit this article. It says a lot about Tippu's 'massacare' of Hindu's in Kerala. I can't find any relevent information regarding this . This poor guy defended the British, when all the Kings were busy giving their tributes to the British. This lead to painting him as a fanatic by some people to get rid off their romance with the invaders in the past. --Ego dupe (talk) 14:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Tipu Sultan/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

"Tippu Sultan as well as Haider Ali converted many Hindus (sometimes forcefully), and the destruction of several temples have been attributed to him." With the refference to the above sentence in this article, i would like to know about the truth about it. if you dont mind please direct me the exact evidence in the written history of tipp.

Substituted at 20:13, 26 September 2016 (UTC)