Talk:Tokoyama

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Tokoyama/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Bluecrystal004 (talk · contribs) 01:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

As promised in Midnight's Discord, I'll take this and gyōji; I won't commit to rikishi yet until I can be sure I have the time. Apologies because I wanted to wait a bit for the GAN backlog drive before starting these! Normally I do reviews in a sandbox and post the whole thing when it's ready, but I am going to try posting here as I go instead (and I may have a lot to say); if there are very minor issues like typos and formatting I will fix them as I'm reading. It may take a couple weeks as my university's spring break doesn't start until March 10. ~Bluecrystal004 ^{(talk · contribs)} 01:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Preliminary thoughts

Sorry it's taken so long for me to start this, I thought it would be a lot sooner! Before I'm done with a full read and review, here are some of my thoughts just at a glance: ~Bluecrystal004 ^{(talk · contribs)} 21:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I have modified it in accordance with the comments, and replied under each point :) - OtharLuin (talk) 09:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

• the lead can and should be expanded, right now it seems to not even mention sumo. Personally I would maybe say the first paragraph can cover the history as well as the Styling the haircut section, while a second paragraph can discuss tokoyama's roles in theater and sumo

 Done Let me know if it would be suitable as is.

• Is there any expansion possible in the Terminology section?

I've tried as hard as I can, but if I were to expand on this part, I wouldn't have a source to back up what I'm saying. I found this part interesting to explain the origin of the name "tokoyama", but the Japanese article, which mentions the same thing, does so without citing any source.

• Less importantly, in the Sumo section, the number of wiktionary links explaining Japanese words is unusual, it's not something typically included. Some could be justified when very specifically talking about the language, but I would recommend to replace all with simple romanizations (for example: Beginners start at fifth class (wikt:五等, gotō) would just be Beginners start at fifth class, gotō,

 Done

• Mind some sources, especially Japanese-language (are 6 and 11 reliable?)

One of the sources (6) is an excerpt from a page explaining the trade on the official website of the National Kabuki Theater, so I think it's a safe source. As for Meridian (11), I'm not a fan of this kind of magazine, but all the informations mentioned are consistent with other reading I've done.

• images copyright and Earwig are OK

Prose

Lead

• overall, the word "specialize" is overused
• the caption of the image could say "of professional sumo wrestler Takayasu", and "for an audience" is not particularly important
• who gradually specialized in the behind-the-scenes roles of preparing the hairstyles of people or puppets, the latter having a special status in the fields in which the tokoyama operate. - I would say this is long and confusing, can shorten and clarify with something like , some of whom gradually started to specialize in hairstyles of actors, puppets, and rikishi.
• To do this, - remove
• to style the hair, which has been previously ointed - "to style hair after oiling it."
• could trim down the last sentence which also seems repetitive

On rereading I think it sounds good enough.

• Often specializing in a particular hairstyle, - redundant, remove
• In kabuki, this relationship leads the tokoyama to choose a specialization that will lead them to follow only actors who have devoted themselves to one part of their art. - I'm not sure what this sentence means

I wanted to express the fact that when an actor chooses a role, whether male or female, he takes his hairdresser with him, who then must specialize in the chosen acting style. I rephrased it.

Sounds good enough now, still a little awkward with the repeating "leads them to"

• In bunraku, the hairdressers are part of a precise behind-the-scenes organization, carrying out... - "In bunraku, the hairdressers carry out..."
• Finally, - remove
• are described as essential elements of the sport's appearance, ... - probably "are seen as" is better, and just "of the sport,"

Overall  Done

Terminology

• This section feels strangely unnecessary. If you really want to include this information, maybe a brief footnote in the lead is appropriate.

 Done, moved to lead

Now that it's moved, it sticks out even more to me. I'm going to make my own edit to it, let me know if the result works for you.

Bit sad to see my terminology work go, but good enough and the info is still here :)

Traditional theater

Kabuki

• Tokoyama are divided into groups - these divisions are just for tokoyama in kabuki, not sumo for example? This could be clarified

They are, yes. Sentence have been detailed.

• on which the tokoyama work on their wigs - is this just one theater in Japan? Do all tokoyama work there?

As far as I can say, the Kabuki-za is the national theater for Kabuki in Japan and it is in Tokyo. Not all actors and kabuki staff works here (there are other kabuki theaters in Japan), but it seems the specialities names were nonetheless influenced by the Kabuki-za own running. Rephrased.

That makes sense. I think the "on which the tokoyama work on their wigs" makes it a bit unclear though, still. It's probably enough to say "...of the Kabuki-za, the national kabuki theater in Japan."

• so-called - remove

 Done

Bunraku

• need to be - replace with "are"
• among the 300 different used - awkward English; I might go with "...selecting puppet hairstyles from about 300 options,"
• it is sent to the tokoyama to be styled - aren't the wigs created by the tokoyama? How are they sent to the tokoyama then?

AFAIK Tokoyama only style the hairs and create the wig, the steward mentionned act as a Theatre director and have the last say on what wig will be used for the play he directs. They then give instructions so a premade wig be adjusted to a particular puppet head.

Could it just be "Once the wig has been chosen, the tokoyama is then responsible for styling it to match the puppet."? I think that wording is clearer for a first-time reader

 Done

• There are about 120 different hairstyles - earlier the article says there are 300

 Done Corrected. 400 (not 300) different heads. 120 different hairstyles.

It still says "...hairstyles from about 400 options" and then "there are about 120 different hairstyles"

 Done

Sumo

• in the See also template, remove the label 1 parameter

• and rank them - ranks
• at all time. - "at any given time" or "at all times"
• like gyoji or yobidashi - clarify what these are a little, maybe "like other personnel like gyoji and yobidashi"

I'm not sure "handymen" is very clear. Yobidashi lists "ring attendant" as an English translation which is much clearer to me. Also it should be plural "referees" probably

• Each tokoyama learns his trade from a senior member of staff who teaches him how to do hair. - drop the end of the sentence so it ends after "from a senior member of staff." and also it's probably better to use "their" instead of "his" here and elsewhere in the article

The masculine form was used because, although no reading clearly states it, in pro sumo the tokoyama must climb into the ring and only men are allowed to do so. It's de facto a job excluding women, at least in sumo. As of today, there are only male sumo tokoyama. If you insist on "their", I will change it though.

I don't insist since I'm not sure if there's consensus; we tend to want gender-neutral language but things like this are a gray area, somewhat like writing about the MLB, NFL, etc. at least in the United States. My opinion is that this is fine for now but my preference is "their" because it can't hurt to use.

• (often abbreviated to ōichō) - unnecessary detail
• This usually only happens after ten years' experience - this is fine, I guess? But it might flow better if it's in parentheses after "Only the most senior tokoyama"

Kept it as it is. Difficult to integrate with the sources tagged.

• that does not, however, follow the names of the professional sumo divisions. - just "in sumo." It's not necessary to bring up the rikishi ranks

Still needs to be changed. At minimum the "however" makes no sense so at least that should be removed.

I wanted to create a contrast with the yobidashi and gyoji articles, which have ranks that follow the order of the divisions in pro sumo. I rephrased it, let me know if that's good to you.

• 資格者 - just use romaji shikakusha
• (tokutō) - should not be in parentheses
• with only a handful of people reaching this rank, - remove this, it's implied
• Promotion to this rank... - the whole sentence can just be "...has very strict prerequisites and the tokoyama must have around 45 years of service."
• yokozuna, professional sumo's highest rank - recommend clarifying by making it "yokozuna, a wrestler of..."

• Wrestlers' hairstyles are so important - I would recommend adding "in the culture of sumo"
• The tokoyama had great freedom of tone in the yokozuna's presence, and the yokozuna was particularly possessive of the services the tokoyama provided for other wrestlers. - this sentence is incredibly vague, and really probably unnecessary

 Done Deleted it.

• eventual founding of new stables - the word "eventual" isn't necessary
• while at the same time making the task of the tokoyama already employed more complicated by increasing the number of wrestlers. - what does this mean?

More wrestler, more people whose chonmage needs to be styled. If you take in wrestlers by opening a new stable but don't employ a tokozyama you make things more complicated for the tokozyama already here. I rephrased it.

 Done

Styling the haircut

• Switch the two sentences about bunraku - "In bunraku, tokoyama can make the most use of..." however "they can not use oil..."
• combine this paragraph with the next (the ones about oil in bunraku and oil in kabuki/sumo)

• called sukiyu and chuneri - several kinds, or two?

 Done

• is emblematic of professional sumo - kind of editorializing here, I would recommend something like "has a distinctive scent that is associated with professional sumo"

 Done

• assortment of different size combs and picks - weird grammar, maybe "combs and picks of various sizes"
• to facilitate the wrestler's hairstyle - grammatically wrong and unclear; "to facilitate styling" is simple enough - also put this sentence at the very end of the paragraph

• avoid "nowadays" and later in the paragraph "in recent years" - see MOS:RELTIME

How about "in the 2020s" ?

(drop the "however" too) I might prefer "As of the 2020s..." grammatically

• as the craftsmen who owned the shops from generation to generation - just "who produce them"
• are disappearing - disappearing mysteriously? Not working on them anymore? Why are they disappearing?

 Done. Also, it was explained in the next sentence.

• for wrestlers' headgear - should this just be "hair" instead of "headgear"?
• Any idea why "fewer and fewer companies" are able to manufacture the ointment, or why family businesses can't continue teaching the trade?

Added details from the article

Sources

Spotchecked this version

• #4:
• #5a: - not seeing a mention on page 17, but on page 50

Don't know why I ended up with 17 for that part. It's corrected.

• #7a:
• #8b/c:
• #9a: - (should say "heads" not "hairstyles") technically source says 300, maybe say "between 300 and 400" also citing ref #8
• #12c/d:
• #13e:
• #20a:
• #19c:
• #18b: - doesn't indicate "like all employees..."

In general, the JSA sets this age for all its employees, but I wanted to summarise by keeping only the page mentioning tokoyama. I've changed the sentence to focus on tokoyama only

• #22a:
• #22b: - not really seeing this supported at least on page 50, just mentions difficulties in getting tokoyama

Corrected

• #24: - seems to not mention binzuke specifically

It's because it was not 101 but 103... My bad

• #29:
• #32:
• #10e: is "seems to be" actually stated by the source (which I don't have a subscription for)? Sounds like possible WP:OR

You mean 11e ? The article is available at archive.org :) As for the wording, I felt somewhat obliged to do so, as the two sources (36, 11e) mentioned contradictory information

• #32e:

Don't know why I did so many, but that's that! Some comments to be addressed but not many. Pending these and final prose changes it can pass afterward. ~Bluecrystal004 ^{(talk · contribs)} 16:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

My review of the prose is done (finally), @OtharLuin:. I will do a spotcheck of the sources soon and once everything is addressed it should be in good shape. Thanks for your patience! ~Bluecrystal004 ^{(talk · contribs)} 21:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, I've changed the text of the article and left a few comments in the review on a few points - OtharLuin (talk) 14:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Struck the things that were addressed, see a few remaining comments. Will now be doing a spotcheck. ~Bluecrystal004 ^{(talk · contribs)} 15:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@OtharLuin: I am satisfied with everything now, passing the article. Thanks for your work on this article, and don't forget to nominate for WP:DYK! ~Bluecrystal004 ^{(talk · contribs)} 01:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 12:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that tokoyama working in kabuki are divided into specialties named after the floors of the Kabuki-za?
• ALT0a: ... that tokoyama (traditional Japanese hairdressers) working in kabuki are divided into specialties named after the floors of the Kabuki-za?
• ALT0b: ... that tokoyama working as kabuki hairdressers are divided into specialties named after the floors of the Kabuki-za? Source: Gunji, Masakatsu (1985). Kabuki. Kodansha International. p. 50. ISBN 0870117327.
  • Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by OtharLuin (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

OtharLuin (talk) 08:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC).

• General eligibility:
• New enough:
• Long enough:
• Other problems:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article was recently promoted to GA and has no copyright issues picked up by Earwig. QPQ not needed and the hook is interesting. @OtharLuin: Can you provide a different source or archive? I can't see page 50 with the provided source. -- ZooBlazer 18:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you unable to access the book itself or are you unable to access it because you don't have an archive.org account? As for other sources, all I have to offer is either the official Kabuki-za website or Kabuki21's (a subject matter expert) kabuki glossary, but it won't be linked to the hook, which can be found in the books on archive.org only. nikai tokoyama + sangai tokoyama - OtharLuin (talk) 18:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Managed to get the page to work on the archive, so everything looks GTG now. Nice work. -- ZooBlazer 19:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@ZooBlazer and OtharLuin: per WP:DYKINT, hooks are supposed to be interesting to those with no knowledge of the subject; however, this hook is unintelligible if you do not know the subject or Japanese well. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I respectfully disagree on the question of intelligibility however I admit that the word tokoyama perhaps requires some clarification, tell me what you think. - OtharLuin (talk) 11:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:DYKMOS, hooks should not contain parentheses, OtharLuin. How about the following ALT0a: ... that traditional Japanese hairdressers working in kabuki theatre are divided into specialties named after the floors of the Kabuki-za in Tokyo? This at least gives the reader some idea of what the hook is going on about. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: Not convinced by your proposal too, I'd like to keep the word tokoyama... I modified the initial hook - OtharLuin (talk) 12:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Is it okay now or do you want further changes AirshipJungleman29? -- ZooBlazer 15:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Please do not modify the original hook OtharLuin; it makes it confusing for new reviewers. For reference, OtharLuin's alterations are now titled ALT0a and ALT0b. ALT0b is borderline, because I still think that the ability of non-familiar readers to understand the hook and get interested is severely compromised, but if another promoter feels that they can promote, I'll leave it up to them. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)