Talk:Tolkien's round world dilemma/Archive 1

Archive 1

'Dilemma' in the title?

I notice that this is one of two serious and unresolved dilemmas of Middle-earth that together occupied Tolkien's mind for many years, the other being Tolkien's moral dilemma, concerning whether Orcs had souls and should therefore be treated as equivalent to humans.

This article is not so much about the innards of the fragmentary Round World Version, as about Tolkien's Round World dilemma. I wonder whether we shouldn't rename the article to that, or something similar, to reflect the core of the article's argument and the reason the Round World versions never got beyond a broken and inconsistent state ? Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Was it really an unresolved dilemma for him, though? It rather seems from what's currently written that from about 1958 onwards, Tolkien consistently used the Round World version whenever the difference was relevant (the two points currently listed, plus CT commenting on the appearance of the Domes of Varda in LQ2 and "The Problem of Ros"), and mentioned it whenever it came up in discussion with others (the 1964 BBC interview and the 1971 letter). So the article now seems to indicate a strange disconnect between the primary sources and CT's commentary on the one hand (where Tolkien indeed makes changes in LQ2 and "The Hobbit"), with the secondary-source conviction that Tolkien couldn't bring himself to make the changes on the other. How to deal with it is a vexing question: maybe it cannot be resolved in WP because it would need too much OR, and sources we might not be able to use for WP like this. But at the very least, we could leave it open and stick to the phrase "Round World version" that is more common than "Round World dilemma". Double sharp (talk) 01:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That is editorial inference from multiple pieces of primary evidence, which as you indicate would clearly fall foul of the rules on Original Research, so we can't go there.

On the title, I certainly don't want to create a "phrase", but the citable sources clearly indicate that they believe Tolkien faced a major dilemma. His actions reveal, as the scholars note, that he continually wished to go ahead and revise his cosmology, and that he could not because it would totally disrupt the Silmarillion narrative, indeed the entire mythology. On sources, I've added Larsen 2024, which increases the evidence of scholarly thought (or belief, which amounts to the same thing here: "reliable sources say so") substantially. I suggest therefore Tolkien's cosmological dilemma, which neutrally avoids taking sides, and also avoids creating a Capital Letter Phrase, as it's purely descriptive. The current "Round World Version" is in any case incorrect, as Tolkien never achieved one, but created multiple inconsistent partial versions. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Now I'm tempted to try writing a scholarly article on this myself off-WP collecting my inferences, so wish me luck, I guess?

I agree that the secondary sources believe that Tolkien faced a dilemma. I don't believe "Round World version" necessarily implies that there was exactly one complete such version, but I can see how it might give that impression. I'd be okay with "cosmological dilemma" as descriptive. Double sharp (talk) 12:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That's brilliant! I must say I'm almost tempted to try such a thing in a different area ... it's quite a steep learning curve, and academics include both delightfully friendly "nurture the newbies" professors, and some who definitely ... bite. Take care! Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)