Talk:Tottenham Hotspur F.C./Archive 6

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Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2020

Mention how recently the club has been involved with charity work especially the 'Make A Wish' foundation where people like Son (a starting player for the Spurs) have helped people like Thomas Shepherd achieve his dreams, bless his heart.

Article proof that they do this https://ask.tottenhamhotspur.com/hc/en-us/articles/209171085-Spurs-Wishes JayCartwright22 (talk) 23:29, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. Edit requests must be precise. Also, we can't use language like "bless his heart" in articles. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:54, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

1971–72 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season

Have added season page from my sandbox, still needs work. Govvy (talk) 12:59, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Honours section

I don't think the Champions League final should be included in honours. As a Spurs fan I'm very proud that we got there, but we don't include the same for finishing second in the league in 2017, or getting to the FA Cup final in '87. For consistency it should only include trophies that have been won, as per the definition of honours. Sconeyj (talk) 12:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to remove it, there is no reason to include it as an honour. If someone objects to its removal and reverts your edit, then invite those who object to its removal to discuss it. Hzh (talk) 13:10, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I've removed it, I've only been listing titles that Tottenham have actually won, I haven't even added runners up to List of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. records and statistics, which is a fair size list on runners up for the club. Govvy (talk) 13:20, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2020

69.159.60.168 (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

troy parrott is on loan right now so We should add him to the loan list! Thx

 Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 19:52, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, Parrott is not a member of the first team squad. His loan is mentioned on the Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Under-23s and Academy page.LenF54 (talk) 17:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Yid Army

The terms Yid Army and Yiddos should be added to the nicknames because that is how Spurs fans generally call themsleves. It has been thrown out by the court as offensive and high profile people such as David Cameron whilst he was Prime Minister said it wasn't offensive. Enough sources show the term to be used positively by the Spurs fans and it is therefore as much a nickname as Reds for Liverpool. The Peacocks Are Back (talk) 07:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Yid Army is already mentioned in the #Supporters section, if you're talking about putting it in the info box, that's a no as that's for the club, not the fans. Govvy (talk) 09:38, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah but fans and club is the same thing. You don't call yourselves "The Red Devils" because you are Satanic and then use that as a name to go supporting Man City!!!!! --The Peacocks Are Back (talk) 08:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Cameron whilst he was Prime Minister said it wasn't offensive. Enough sources show the term to be used positively by the Spurs fans and it is therefore as much a nickname as Reds for Liverpool. 80.43.178.183 (talk) 15:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Steffen Freund

I don't think he has a position with the Club anymore. He's not on the current website, and he hasn't been heard from in years. Dawindler (talk) 06:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems like he left in 2015 - [1], and now has a number of other jobs working as a commentator and pundit, and as a EUFA ambassador [2]. I'd say remove it until there is evidence that he is still working for the club. Hzh (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Tottenham Hotspur?

Should we create a Spurs wikiproject to manage all spurs-related articles? Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and both Sheffield clubs have one. AaDIL123456789 (talk) 22:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Whether a Wikiproject is successful or not depends on the participants who are willing to do the work to make it a success, but we won't know that until it has been created. I'm not sure if some of those wikiprojects are very active. But do go ahead and create it if you feel you can do it. There are plenty of Tottenham articles still to be created, for example for the individual seasons, maybe having a Wikiproject will encourage others to help start those, or improve other articles that need improving. Hzh (talk) 03:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit Request - Womens Section

Tottenham Hotspur Ladies section should be changed to Tottenham Hotspur Women's. The section mentions that this will happen at the beginning of 2019 but should be changed to reflect that this has now happened. AngerFacade (talk) 19:50, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Done. Hzh (talk) 21:11, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Super League

It should be mentioned that Tottenham have been put forward as a FOUNDING MEMBER of the new The Super League. This is a major potential change and could have huge ramifications in the near future. Also more is due to follow so it's worth getting this noted somewhere and be ready to make amendments to it as new information comes through in the following hours. Emanormanny (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Emanormanny: Not really worth mentioning it in the article, it's news and there is WP:NOTNEWS. Govvy (talk) 08:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

1972–73 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season

Added another season, took me a while and a bit of work, working on a stats table in my sandbox to add. Hope some editors can help improve it. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 19:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Stanley Briggs

Article created, if anyone can add to it, please do. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 11:16, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

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1896–97 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season

Season articled added, there is also Willie Newbigging which I just created, if anyone wants to add, fix them up please do. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 15:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

1900–01 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season

Have added the 1900–01 season, any help to improve it, please do. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

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THFC football directors

Can we come to a consensus regarding working directors and whether they belong in Category:Tottenham Hotspur F.C. directors and chairmen or Category:Tottenham Hotspur F.C. non-playing staff? We are inconsistent (see Fabio Paratici, Damien Comolli, Frank Arnesen as examples). The problem seems to be that working directors such as the Director of Football aren’t always part of the main board and can be just part of a “football board”. Likewise, Academy Directors Colin Murphy and Peter Suddaby. I lean towards putting working directors in Category:Tottenham Hotspur F.C. non-playing staff. LenF54 (talk) 16:53, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 4 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 14:09, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

---

Tottenham Hotspur F.C. → Tottenham Hotspur Football Club – "Tottenham Hotspur Football Club" according to lead and infobox. "F.C." is not used by media or probably not used by anyone else and it is incorrectly abbreviated (should be "FC" - without dots). Eurohunter (talk) 13:51, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Against. Whilst there is an argument for the change, there is also an argument that simply naming the article Tottenham Hotspur is sufficient and is more commonly used than Tottenham Hotspur F.C. or Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. That argument is not supportable, however, when one considers Liverpool (there is a need to add a suffix to indicate F.C. or Football Club to distinguish from the city), and we should be consistent across all football clubs. Current Wikipedia convention is that English football club articles are named XYZ F.C. and to change one to XYZ Football Club would mean changing 100. It should also be considered that having A.F.C. in some names is necessary, and we wouldn't consider expanding that to Associated Football Club would we? Consistency is key. Using F.C. is grammatically correct; using FC is not (although it is becoming more common). I see nothing wrong with having Tottenham Hotspur Football Club as a redirect to Tottenham Hotspur F.C. LenF54 (talk) 16:05, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment why not just Tottenham Hotspur as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURAL?--Ortizesp (talk) 01:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

As LenF54 said, for consistency. It works for Tottenham Hotspur or Wolverhampton Wanderers, but not for Liverpool or Chelsea where disambiguation from the city or district would be necessary. No change is needed. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:38, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose This is the naming standard for English football clubs as can be seen in Category:Football clubs in England. Number 57 16:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 19:35, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per N57. Having football clubs without the 'F.C.' would result in carnage given the number of football clubs named after towns & cities. GiantSnowman 19:37, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

What about without the periods? Just FC? Red Slash 23:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - standard naming convention for English football clubs is long established and I see no compelling reason to change either this one in isolation or all of them -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose moving to full name though Tottenham Hotspur FC seems better than some other suggested moves in line with some of the sources plus the title of the tab of the PL website. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 08:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Any such change would make it the odd one out in football club articles. If people want to change how football club articles are named (e.g. changing F.C. to FC or Football Club or dropping it altogether), then propose in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football or somewhere general like that, rather than any specific football club. Hzh (talk) 08:47, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Agreed, no article should be moved to a title inconsistent with all the other 100s of English clubs, if done at all it should be done as a blanket thing, although as noted above I really hope nobody ever proposes dropping the suffix altogether, leading to such horrendous article titles as Liverpool (football club) and potentially even Arsenal (English football club)..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:24, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose No change needed as LenF54 stated. KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 15:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Correct Tottenham articles to archived versions

We should start work on this where non-existing articles can be replaced.

Example:

Citation 222 is a link to a dead article, but the article has been archived by Tottenham here. 77.100.139.201 (talk) 22:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Dane Scarlett on loan

Hello,

I wanted to add Dane Scarlett to the "Players on loan" section but I don't know his player number. Sorry

If someone is willing, the source is his Wiki page where we learn he's on loan to Portsmouth since 27 July 2022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Scarlett sseb22 (talk) 09:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

According to the THFC website, Scarlett is a member of the under 21's. Mention of his loan on wikipedia is therefore on the academy page Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Under-23s and Academy. By the way, the convention is that wikipedia is not a source for wikipedia. Thanks for your good faith input. LenF54 (talk) 18:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 September 2022

Under Management and Support staff, change Head of kit and equipment Stuart Dukes to Steve Dukes 82.7.160.35 (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Done, with source. Thank you for pointing out the error. LenF54 (talk) 14:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Tottenham Hotspur

1980 European cup 94.10.82.194 (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

They didn't win that Mwiqdoh (talk) 17:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2023

The Social Responsibility section is dated and does not reflect what the Club currently outlines on its website. I propose:

CHANGE THIS:

The club through its Community Programme has, since 2006, been working with Haringey Council and the Metropolitan Housing Trust and the local community on developing sports facilities and social programmes which have also been financially supported by Barclays Spaces for Sport and the Football Foundation.[200][201] The Tottenham Hotspur Foundation received high-level political support from the prime minister when it was launched at 10 Downing Street in February 2007.[202]

In March 2007 the club announced a partnership with the charity SOS Children's Villages UK.[203] Player fines will go towards this charity's children's village in Rustenburg, South Africa with the funds being used to cover the running costs as well as in support of a variety of community development projects in and around Rustenburg. In the financial year 2006–07, Tottenham topped a league of Premier League charitable donations when viewed both in overall terms[204] and as a percentage of turnover by giving £4,545,889, including a one-off contribution of £4.5 million over four years, to set up the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation.[205] This compared to donations of £9,763 in 2005–06.[206]

The football club is one of the highest profile participants in the 10:10 project which encourages individuals, businesses and organisations to take action on environmental issues. They joined in 2009 in a commitment to reducing their carbon footprint. To do this they upgraded their lights to more efficient models, they turned down their heating dials and took less short-haul flights among a host of other things.[207] After working with 10:10 for one year, they reported that they had reduced their carbon emissions by 14%.[207]

In contrast, they have successfully sought the reduction of section 106 planning obligations connected to the redevelopment of the stadium in the Northumberland Development Project. Initially the development would incorporate 50% affordable housing, but this requirement was later waived, and a payment of £16m for community infrastructure was reduced to £0.5m.[208] This is controversial in an area which has suffered high levels of deprivation as Spurs had bought up properties for redevelopment, removing existing jobs and businesses for property development but not creating enough new jobs for the area.[209] The club however argued that the project, when completed, would support 3,500 jobs and inject an estimated £293 million into the local economy annually,[210] and that it would serve as the catalyst for a wider 20-year regeneration programme for the Tottenham area.[211][212] In other developments in North Tottenham, the club has built 256 affordable homes and a 400-pupil primary school.

TO THIS:

Tottenham Hotspur uses its unique platform as a leading Premier League football club to inspire and drive positive social change, advocate and raise awareness for good causes, instil a sense of pride and belonging amongst its fans, and bring prosperity and happiness to those living within its communities.

The Club recognises this responsibility and has a wide-ranging Corporate Social Responsibility programme at its core, focusing around the following areas: • The Stadium-led regeneration of Tottenham • The work of the Club’s charitable Foundation • Environmental sustainability • Diversity & Inclusion • Support for charities and good causes

Galvanised following the riots in Tottenham in August 2011, the Club pushed forward with the construction of one of the world’s finest sports stadiums as well as a host of associated infrastructure, including new Club offices, a new supermarket, new schools, a permanent home for the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation, and the Tottenham Experience – a seven-day-a-week leisure destination that includes the Spurs Shop, Stadium Tours and the Dare Skywalk .

Future plans include the construction of a 180-room hotel and 579 new apartments at the southern end of the stadium

The London Academy of Excellence Tottenham

As part of the development of Lilywhite House, adjacent to the stadium, the Club decided to create an elite educational facility to sit alongside its new Club offices .

The London Academy of Excellence Tottenham (LAET) is a state-funded Sixth Form, sponsored by the Club and Highgate School - the principal academic sponsors who, together with support from other leading independent schools, deliver expert teaching .

It prioritises local students most likely to benefit from an academically-rigorous curriculum and those from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds, giving Tottenham’s brightest students the best possible chance of accessing top universities. This is in the context of the school being situated within one of the 2% most deprived wards in the country, with 63% of its student body coming from the lowest two social groups, - being described as living in “struggling estates” or “difficult circumstances” - using the ACORN tool for socio-economic analysis.

LAET was named the Sunday Times Sixth Form College of the Year, 2020 by Parent Power, The Sunday Times School Guide. In 2022, LAET achieved an ‘Outstanding’ Ofsted rating across all areas . A-Level results have continued to improve year-on-year, with 2022 seeing nearly three quarters of students going on to Russell Group Universities compared to 1% of Tottenham school leavers the year before LAET opened. More than 30 students have won places at the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge since the school opened in 2017, with others electing to undertake prestigious apprenticeships - this puts LAE Tottenham within the top 2% of state Sixth Forms nationally.

Job Creation

The Club and its Foundation has a strong track record in creating job opportunities locally, with more than 4,000 delivered through the stadium development across a range of sectors, including hospitality, security, construction and retail. This encompasses the 78,000 square foot Sainsburys and Gym, which sit within the wider stadium campus and employ locally .

Tottenham Hotspur Foundation delivers: • Weekly drop-in sessions at its Percy House headquarters on Tottenham High Road – whereby local people visit and receive free careers advice and signposting towards live job opportunities • Group sessions for job seekers to develop core skills required to gain vocational qualifications • The Leadership Through Sports & Business scheme to help young people from disadvantaged backgrounds into careers in business and finance • Reignite – a programme to help over 50s looking for work towards a career change or return to work • Pre-employment support for young people with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities

Opportunities for young people

Since opening the new stadium, the Club has ensured that local school children have the opportunity to visit and experience the world-class venue that exists on their doorstep by accommodating stadium tours free of charge for school groups that are most local to them. Schools are provided with an educational fact sheet that covers the following areas related to the stadium and its wider development. A Community Ticketing initiative has also enabled many local children and families to attend their first Tottenham Hotspur games, as well as concerts and events.

Located at the south-east of the stadium campus, N17 Arena consists of two first-class Mini-Pitch System™ modular sports solutions, with accompanying floodlighting, provided by Musco, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium’s Official Field of Play Lighting Supplier. An Astroturf pitch is used as an inner-city football talent ID centre by the Club’s Academy and Global Football Development team, with a revolutionary playing surface made from over 18,000 recycled trainers, delivered by Nike Grind, hosting a range of free sporting activities for the local community. N17 Arena enables the most talented young male and female footballers from the area to access a local training facility that provides a pathway through to elite level, right on their doorstep.

Tottenham Hotspur Foundation

Established in 2007, the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation is the Club’s official charitable body, committed to creating life-changing opportunities for people across the Boroughs of Haringey, Enfield, Waltham Forest and Barnet. The Foundation has a long established and valued partnership with its local communities where there are significant socio-economic challenges. It is located at Percy House, Tottenham High Road, delivering a major community enterprise and skills hub at the heart of North Tottenham. The Foundation delivers a range of creative, innovative and engaging programmes for people from our local communities, strategically linked with national and local government agendas across two key areas: Youth, Employment & Skills, and Football, Sports, Health & Wellbeing.

Environmental Sustainability

Tottenham Hotspur has said it is dedicated to minimising the environmental impacts of its activities across all Club operations. In 2020, 2021 and 2022, the Club topped the Premier League’s sustainability table, produced by BBC Sport and the UN-backed Sport Positive Summit. The Club has set targets to halve its carbon emissions by 2030 and become net zero by 2040 .

Stadium measures: • 100% certified renewable energy and zero scope 2 emissions, with REGO-backed electricity and carbon neutral gas across its sites • The building fabric of the stadium has been designed to be highly insulated to reduce heating and cooling demands • The Club has a ‘zero to landfill’ waste management programme, with clear recycling instructions for fans on its bins, as well as a reusable beer cup scheme • Single-use plastic reduction measures are in place across the Club - players drink water from cartons, food is served in recyclable packaging with wooden cutlery, and even beer keg caps are recycled at the stadium • significant investment has been driven into the local transport infrastructure with the stadium served by four train stations, a free matchday shuttle bus and a carbon neutral regional coach service. There is also provision for 180 bikes to be parked nearby the stadium • All food produced, where possible, is locally and sustainably sourced. Food remaining from events is donated to The Felix Project charity for distribution locally • Water consumption is minimised across the development with waterless urinals and low-flow fittings and fixtures • Materials were re-used during the construction phase, with excavated materials recycled in concrete aggregate batched on-site

Training Centre measures • Technologies are in place throughout to deliver renewable energy, including 75m2 Solar Panels and air source heat pumps • A sedum ‘green roof’ has been installed to significant portions of the main building to enable the capture and re-harvesting of rain water across the site • A comprehensive drainage and extraction system is in place through the installation of an attenuation pond and two onsite bore holes • A Kitchen Garden grows organic fruit and veg served in the players’ restaurant • The Club has planted hundreds of new and semi-mature trees and tens of thousands of new plants, hedges and flowers across the site, along with two wildlife ponds, 25 bug hotels and multiple bat houses

The Club partnered with Sky to host the world’s first net zero carbon football game at an elite level in September, 2021. Net zero was achieved by first measuring the baseline emissions of a match held at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium then lowering those emissions as much as possible and offsetting any that could not be reduced with the support of Natural Capital Partners, through a community reforestation project in East Africa, which removes carbon emissions from the atmosphere. The initiative won in the Sustainability category at the 2022 Football Business Awards.

Diversity & Inclusion

Tottenham Hotspur has supported a wide range of campaigns against discrimination and to promote and celebrate inclusivity. In 2022, the Club has achieved Advanced Standard in PLES (the Premier League Equality Standard).

Tottenham Hotspur Foundation has a proven track record in providing opportunities for those living with disabilities across its communities. This includes sport and physical activity sessions as well as programmes aimed at helping those with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities into employment. Tottenham Hotspur Stadium is fully compliant with the Accessible Stadia Guide and exceeds standards in many areas. For example, in addition to dedicated accessible entrances, the stadium has accessible seating and wheelchair spaces in all stands. It also includes three Changing Places facilities for fans with more complex needs, which have more space and equipment than standard accessible toilets. Located in the stadium’s North Stand, a Sensory Suite offers a comfortable and calming environment for supporters on the autistic spectrum or with sensory impairment conditions to watch matches. . The room is complete with a tactile wall, a bubble tube and several other pieces of sensory equipment. The Club is committed to developing more inclusive experiences across its Stadium Visitor Attractions, including the introduction of wheelchair accessible climbs on The Dare Skywalk and British Sign Language Stadium Tours. The Club works closely with SpursAbility, its Disabled Supporters’ Association which represents and promotes the views of disabled fans, to ensure a positive experience at matches.

In 2020, the Club was honoured with the Professional Game Award at the first ever Football v Homophobia Awards.

The Club was recognised for showing dedication to improving the landscape of football for LGBTQ+ people and who have worked in numerous ways to create better inclusion and participation at all levels of football. The Club was one of the first to establish a LGBTQ+ Supporters’ Association, with the Proud Lilywhites launched in February, 2014. Since then, Proud Lilywhites has continued to work closely with the Club to help combat issues relating to homophobia within the game and create a safe and inclusive environment for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender fans.

Tottenham Hotspur is a founding signatory of the Football Leadership Diversity Code, launched by The FA to drive diversity and inclusion across English football. It is one of over 40 clubs across the Premier League, English Football League, Barclays FA Women’s Super League and FA Women’s Championship committing to tackle inequality across senior leadership positions, broader team operations and coaching roles.

Charity

The Club’s official charity partner since 2016, Noah’s Ark Children’s Hospice provides support for babies, children and young people with life-limiting or life-threatening conditions and their families living in North London. The partnership has seen the Club help raise awareness of the work of the charity and drive the recruitment of volunteers via high profile events and the support of First Team players, including the squad’s donation of an hour’s wages to help raise funds to build The Ark – a state-of-the-art hospice building, located in Barnet.

The Club has an ongoing fundraising initiative to support North Enfield and Tottenham Foodbanks and makes annual Christmas deliveries of items donated by players and staff. Fans are able to make donations of any amount via a text-to donate service that is regularly promoted around matchdays.

In July 2011, Spurs Wishes was set up to capture the work already carried out at Tottenham Hotspur by the Club’s staff, management and players for terminally ill fans. Each year the Club receives letters and emails from friends and family of supporters who believe that Spurs can play some part in the treatment of terminally ill fans. The Club recognises that by bringing a moment of happiness through a memorable experience like this can have a positive uplifting effect, whatever the future holds. JOakes 3 (talk) 11:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Unclear what you're asking for, you've posted a massive chunk of text and haven't pointed to small easy parts. Govvy (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

References

info box mgrtitle?

Interim manager, head coach or as Spurs put it, Acting head coach? Govvy (talk) 09:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

A lot of sources that are covering this say it's interim. I have never seen "Acting Head coach" used, maybe it's Spurs' way of saying interim? Mwiqdoh (talk) 09:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Many sources also used caretaker manager. Hzh (talk) 13:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The THFC website says "acting head coach" so if that's what the employer refers to him as, I would go with that. See https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2023/march/club-announcement-antonio-departs/ . I appreciate there are different views.LenF54 (talk) 16:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

When has that term ever been used on Wikipedia? Again, it's most likely another way of saying caretaker or interim. What are other sources saying? Mwiqdoh (talk) 17:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Acting head coach it is, per the official club site linked above and also ESPN here. I’ll revert to the change on the Spurs page. Seasider53 (talk) 19:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I prefer LenF54 edit, it looked better that way. Can we restore that version please. Govvy (talk) 21:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

What is wrong with the current revision? Still says acting. Mwiqdoh (talk) 21:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't look as good! Three words together when all but one other is a double word heading. The heading bold on each row should be limited to one or two words. The way at the moment with three, gives it a slight oddness! :/ Govvy (talk) 21:19, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

No worries then, you can change it to the previous revision. Mwiqdoh (talk) 21:30, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

job creation section

I couldn't understand, why was it considered promotional? One of the sources was The Guardian, which is a highly respect news source. Govvy (talk) 08:39, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I would delete the whole social responsibility section, given that it is mainly about non-football stuff (charity, environmental issues, housing etc.). Parts the social responsibility section sound too much like PR fluff, therefore might be considered promotional. I don't see job creation for any football club as unusual, unless the club is doing something unusual, it's probably not worth mentioning. Perhaps the economic importance of the club for the area might be something worth mentioning, but I would write the section differently. Hzh (talk) 09:45, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with you, Hzh. Community work / social responsibility is a club "activity", albeit a non-football one, and there should be a mention of it somewhere. Otherwise we could argue about deleting club ambassadors from the list of staff. I don't think any of the other Tottenham Hotspur related pages are more suitable so either it gets its own page or it stays where it is. There are pieces that sound too much like PR, and JOakes 3 has previously been warned about copyright issues, but if one of the sources is the Guardian, as Govvy says, then that is independent and not PR. Perhaps it needs a significant re-write. LenF54 (talk) 16:40, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Frankly it wouldn't bother me if you delete club ambassadors, but what make you think that the posts are entirely non-football? It is also irrelevant to the discussion, we are talking about an entire section rather than entries for a position, unless you are proposing deleting the section on staff. The fact is that some of what's written in the social responsibility are trivial and just PR fluff (job fairs?), not to mention excessive to an embarrassing extent (three paragraphs on environment issues!), do you see any other articles on football clubs that has such a large section on non-football issues like this? It looks almost desperate trying to puff the club up with non-football stuff. Hzh (talk) 19:31, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2023

Manager Ryan Mason[acting] The Hoodguy (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Pinchme123 (talk) 20:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Rivalries

Please don't add irrelevant material to the section. First the statement that "Spurs are often perceived as "bottlers" among rival fans" is not sourced. HITC made the claim that the Spurs are synonymous with "bottlers", HITC is not a rival fan. Chiellini and Conte were commenting on the side, they are not speaking as rival fans, and what they said have got nothing to do with rivalry, therefore completely irrelevant. You are constructing something out of separate unrelated information, therefore this is WP:SYNTH. As for "Lads, it's Tottenham", you might use them as an example of what rival fans may use to mock Spurs (but note that Man U are not considered traditional Spurs rivals). I'm pretty sure Spurs fans also used "Spursy" as well, it not something limited to rival fans. I'm not sure who started using the word, but one of the earliest instances I've seen it used was by Spurs fans, moaning about the team after a lost game. Just as examples, here are Spurs fan podcasts and forum that used the word Spursy in their titles -[3][4][5] Hzh (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree. On the Spursy front, it would be good to explore the etymology of the word. Certainly the first time I heard it was from Spurs fans or from neutral pundits, not rival fans. There's a good article about "spursiness" in FourFourTwo here but there isn't much there that can be used in an encyclopaedia. It'll be interesting to see if we can find any reliable sources that point to how and when the word was first used; certainly it's something I hear much more now than, say, ten years ago. WaggersTALK 10:03, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The origin may be hard to find, my guess is that it came from internet forums, more likely coined by a Spurs fan than a rival fan. This site claims that it was invented by a Spurs fan in The Fighting Cock forum in 2013 but with a somewhat different meaning - it described flair Spurs players who may ‘go missing at Stoke on a cold February evening’ - [6]. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I can see the term being used by Spurs fans to complain about Spurs losing a game, turning "typical Spurs, losing a game like that" into "this is just so Spursy". Frankly I have friends who are Chelsea and Arsenal fans, and I have never heard them using the term until it became common usage. Hzh (talk) 15:16, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Adding that I found a post in The Fighting Cock where "Spursy" was used in January 2013 (and possibly it was used earlier?) - [7] - One step forward, two steps back....how very Spursy. Hzh (talk) 15:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

And here, a thread where what "Spursy" means was discussed - [8]. Hzh (talk) 16:20, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I totally agree with Hzh's opening comments. The piece - once more deleted - has nothing to do with rivalry and I do not support Murtaza aliakbar and his continual reinstatement of it. I believe the phrase is, "Leave it out." LenF54 (talk) 16:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. These are baseless arguments. How is rivals using the term "Spursy" not related to rivarly? The term is on Guardian, on Sky Sports, on The Athletic, TalkSport, Goal, One Football App. Google and I can see that the term is used *several* times in a season! Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 11:17, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Opinion pieces in the sources you list are not sufficient. Seasider53 (talk) 11:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, blanket statement. There were more than 6 different sources. Every single one of them was an opinion piece? Let me know which ones, and I'll try to unearth non-opnion ones. Also, rivalry in on itself is going to be opinionated. All I was looking for are reputable sources (which, I think all the cited sources were). Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 11:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hzh:: HITC is not a rival fan I mean, the YouTube video by HITC goes on and on and on about how Spurs kept losing Cup matches to rivals (mostly Chelsea). This is like saying The Guardian is not a rival fan so can't cite it... What does it even mean? nothing to do with rivalry, therefore completely irrelevant Whilst there's no outright rivarly between Spurs and Juve, Chiellini literally spoke to the press after a match against Spurs (as a rival). It isn't synth when references like this explicitly talk about Chiellini's quotes when comparing Spurs and Arsenal. but note that Man U are not considered traditional Spurs rivals The section isn't about just "traditional rivalry". United are "top4" / "top6" rivals by all accounts. I'm pretty sure Spurs fans also used "Spursy" as well So what? It is used by pretty much everyone and mostly by rival fans. As I mentioned above, "The term is on Guardian, on Sky Sports, on The Athletic, TalkSport, Goal, One Football App. Google and I can see that the term is used *several* times in a season!"

(as for reverts; apologies. I didn't really know of these talk sections (hard to view and reply to from mobile, which is what I use most when editing pages. I also wasn't tagged so I didn't get a notification, either). Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Murtaza.aliakbar: You need a specific claim from RS that "Spurs are often perceived as "bottlers" among rival fans". HITC did not make the claim, it is offering an opinion that Spurs are synonymous with "bottlers". "Bottling" in any case is too common an accusation against a football to be useful for inclusion in an article unless it's an article on common insults among football fans; all clubs get accused of it at some point. For example, here it says "Tottenham, alongside with Arsenal, Dortmund, PSG and Liverpool" are often accused of "bottling", here that talks about "bottlers" doesn't even mention Tottenham, while here it says an Arsenal fan accused all Top 6 clubs as being "bottlers", but here it is Arsenal that's being accused of being "bottlers". If you add all these claims into football articles it's not going to be pretty, just coming across as petty and POV fan warring.

Nothing Chiellini said is worth adding, you get all sort of claims against all clubs by everyone, and he certainly didn't say "bottlers", so doesn't support the claim you made. and it is WP:OR to say it is.

If I wanted to write on "Spursy", I would have written it differently, since its origin is interesting and most likely originated from a Spurs fan (personally I'm not sure if it needed a lot written in the broad main article). It is mentioned in the supporters article. Hzh (talk) 12:06, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hzh: Thanks. Spurs are often perceived as "bottlers" among rival fans It is right in the title? How Tottenham Became The Biggest Bottlers In The World. And the entire video is from a rival perspective. This isn't synth as much as it is summarizing the video. May be the sentence could be reworded; that can't be grounds for a revert but a "fix"?

HITC did not make the claim, it is offering an opinion that Spurs are synonymous with "bottlers" Disagree on "offering an opinion"; agree with "synonymous with bottlers". I mean, everyone is out here offering an "opinion" (from a rivals perspective in case of HITC). There isn't any science to neologisms for me to show you a PhD thesis on it. If HITC is RS, then I don't see a problem? "Bottling" in any case is too common an accusation against a football to be useful for inclusion in an article With Spurs, it is their specific inability to win titles or cups over a decade that makes the moniker stick with rivals (as stated here). Also, this talk is about Spurs and not about other clubs. Whether their wikis contain something or not, is out of scope for this discussion. You're free to add the term to those pages, and if there's consensus, great! POV fan warring slippery slope. Please, let's not talk about futures that don't exist, yet.

Nothing Chiellini said is worth adding, you get all sort of claims against all clubs by everyone, and he certainly didn't say "bottlers", so doesn't support the claim you made. and it is WP:OR to say it is. Non-sequitur: This isn't what it even said? The Chiellini quote exist to show how rivals perceive Spursiness as it is used by articles to highlight this specific fact here, and btw, the sentence (with a different reference) went After an unexpected Juventus comeback against Spurs in 2018, Giorgio Chiellini remarked Spurs lack experience of teams like Juventus in closing out Champions League knockout ties. There's nothing about "bottling" in there and so I don't see how wp:or is valid? Chiellini quote and "Lads, it's Tottenham" are staple callbacks in the mainstream media whenever spursyness comes up (same article as before, one which mentions "bottlers" as a bonus).

If I wanted to write on "Spursy", I would have written it differently but you did not? I guess this one can go back up pronto. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 12:52, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Murtaza.aliakbar: HITC offered an opinion, are you are claiming that HITC represent rival fans, and is a website for anti-Spurs fans? Such accusation against clubs changes every year. Are you going to add the accusation of "bottlers" to the Arsenal and Liverpool articles, particularly Arsenal now that they are the target of such accusation? (Good luck to you not getting them deleted). Frankly I've seen more common insults directed against Spurs than "bottlers", they are generally temporary relative within the club's long history, not worth adding as passing phenomena or recentism. It's WP:SYNTH what you did with the Chiellini reference. You can construct anything out of everything that people have said about a particular club. If you are interested, I wrote the Rivalries section in the supporters article. They are common words/phrases that's specific to the club itself, rather than something that's too general and non-specific like "bottlers" to add to any club's article. I should also say that you need a consensus to re-add now that it has been objected to by a number of editors. Hzh (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hzh: HITC offered an opinion, are you are claiming that HITC represent rival fans I don't know why you say that. I've rewatched the video and HITC that claims that Spurs are percieved as chronic bottlers. Whether HITC are anti-Spurs or not is not even a valid argument to make? Are you a Spurs fan? If so, then you should disclose that per wp:coi? In my eyes, if HITC is a reliable source, then what they are saying can go up.

Such accusations against clubs changes every year You ignored the fact that Spurs are associated with a trophy drought going back to 15 years? None of their rivals have had a drought that long. Which is why the monikers stick. Which is why Chiellini and Alex Ferguson quotes are brought up like clockwork by rivals and mentioned by multiple articles on different neutral / reliable sources, and so it is not wp:synth nor wp:nor nor wp:recentism. Saying it repeatedly doesn't make it so, I'm afraid.

not worth adding as passing phenomena or recentism Not if the neologisms have been persistently used for 5 years or 10 years or more. I'm inclined to think you're just wiki lawerying at this point.

should also say that you need a consensus to re-add now that it has been objected to by a number of editors Don't think so, when the reverts themselves have no basis in wikipedia guidelines or policies. More so, that none of the agreeing editors have replied to my objections to their reasoning.

rather than something that's too general and non-specific like "bottlers" to add to any club's article The edit you reverted only mentioned bottlers once. But you are using it to justify getting rid of 5 other sentences. And on top of it, you refuse to acknowledge other points I've made, and keep circling back on bottlers for reasons unknown. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 14:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Murtaza.aliakbar: COI has got nothing to do with whether someone is a fan or not, otherwise you are also saying that if you are a rival fan you cannot add anything about Spurs because you are non-neutral. The assertion you made is simply not in HITC ("perceived" by whom? Arsenal's own angry fans could very well accuse their team of being bottlers, remember that Spursy is likely coined by a Spurs fan). The great majority of clubs have long period of draught, so how is that even an argument? I'll repeat this, are you going to add the "bottlers" accusation to the Arsenal article, since you can find many sources that say the same thing over many years - [9][10][11]. "Bottlers" is an example of what not to add in a football article unless you are writing an article on common football insults.

There are an infinite number of comments by individuals on any major club, you can only add those that have greater significance in a club's history. Why do you think what Chiellini or Conte said is of greater significance than huge number of quotes by many people, some of them important people in the club's history? As I said, it's WP:SYNTH to include them to construct a narrative. It's bizarre simply to include them in the rivalries narrative. You appear to be arguing that you can write from a rival fan's perspective, but that is non-neutral and not permitted. I have addressed all the sentences, and as I've said, I wrote the Rivalries section in the supporters article (which includes mentions of "Spursy", and "Lads, it's Tottenham"), I am however, ambivalent if they warrant mentions in a broad general article on the club. I would concede possibly "Spursy" is a word that could be included given that it is unusual for a term derived from a club to become common usage. Hzh (talk) 15:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hzh: Thanks appreciate your inputs. COI has got nothing to do with whether someone is a fan or Sure, but you'd agree a fan is biased. And here we're talking about removing an entire section which a fan might take as an insult. because you are non-neutral You have this the other way around. I added things that are reported in the mainstream media as-is. Not my opinions. The removal of the content on wp:or, wp:recentism, wp:synth (when it is none of those) is non-neutral typical fan-like behaviour, if you will.

"perceived" by whom? Ah, I see. Your point is HITC doesn't explicitly state "rivals perceive Spurs as bottlers" which is strange because otherwise which faction would (if not rivals)? Here's another well researched yt video that goes "many call them bottle jobs..." (25:42 and 00:25)... but you're hung up on the fact that they don't state "rivals" explicitly? Bizzare but I totally see your point.

I'll repeat this, are you going to add the "bottlers" accusation to the Arsenal Why repeat? I answered it by saying, no rival club (top4 / top6 if you will) has consistently bottled it. Besides, what could go on or not in articles of other clubs is of no little consequence here, imo.

"Bottlers" is an example of what not to add in a football article unless you are writing an article on common football insults. Not when the moniker has stuck as well as it has (the fact that you think it is "insulting" is telling... which brings me to).

You appear to be arguing that you can write from a rival fan's perspective, but that is non-neutral and not permitted I claim you're reverting the commits as non-neutral. You come off as a fan, but I wouldn't know. And one would think a rival fan's perspective would be par for the course for the rivarly section.

The great majority of clubs have long period of draught Nah. Spurs top4 / top6 rivals (in the Premier League era) have not been on a trophy drought that long (in the Premier League era).

Why do you think what Chiellini or Conte said is of greater significance than huge number of quotes by many people, some of them important people in the club's history Already mentioned that, the Chiellini quote and the Alex Ferguson quote is used in many articles (reputable sources no less) that discusses spursyness is why. Antonio's quote, I understand might fall under wp:recentism, but we'll see in 5 - 10 years hence how it keeps up.

As I said, it's WP:SYNTH to include them to construct a narrative. It's bizarre simply to include them in the rivalries narrative. You appear to be arguing that you can write from a rival fan's perspective That isn't what wp:synth says, which goes "A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article. The sources in the reverted edit (example) mention the quotes (Chiellini and Alex Ferguson) while discussing spursyness. I didn't add 1 and 1 together myself (wp:synth) nor did I invent the narrative (wp:or) nor is usage of these quotes recent, imo.

I would concede possibly "Spursy" is a word that could be included given that it is unusual for a term derived from a club to become common usage Agree.

In sum, I think you and I are on the same page, but just not about how the sentences must be formed (leaving out the usage of the word bottlers and Antonio's quotes, for a second). I agree iff that's your take. And so, wp:fixfirst is of order instead of wholesale reverts, going forward? Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

This is entirely an pointless argument. Are you arguing as a rival fan? If you are, therefore by your argument, you are biased and should not edit here. I am the one who wrote the rivalries section in the supporters article (which included the entries you wanted to add here, minus the "bottlers", which as already explained is unsuitable for inclusion), any accusation of bias is stupid. The only criteria is whether you can write in a neutral way. You are making arbitrary decision why only this club deserve to be called "bottlers", using irrelevant excuses. One moment you said it's because the club had no success in the last 15 years, then you say top 4/top 6, then Premier League era (why Premier League era only?), when the "bottlers" accusation has got nothing to do with time period or ranking. It specifically is about failing to win when they should have won, therefore can be used to refer to any team who is in that position. Even for Spurs, that has been true for only a few times recently. In comparison, Arsenal has more consistently failed in Europe (as indicated by one of the sources I gave which talked about them being "bottlers", and that lasted a long period with only one major European title won in their entire history). Everton were considered a major top 5 club when the Premier League was formed, but they haven't had success for a long time, and this season they are facing relegation, but people are not going called them "bottlers", because that is simply not how the word is used.

I see no point in writing further, the only thing that needs mentioning is that you need to gain consensus to re-add your edit, and so far I haven't seen any support for you. Hzh (talk) 14:06, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

(edited) @Hzh: Thanks. This is entirely pointless argument No it isn't. If you're a fan, you shouldn't be the one calling the shots. I am the one who wrote the rivalries section in the supporters article No one owns wikipedia. accusation of bias is stupid Nah mate, it is valid if you're indeed a fan (I don't know if you are).

The only criteria is whether you can write in a neutral way. Oh, so it is no longer wp:synth, wp:or, or wp:recentism... this isn't what the editors who supported the revert agreed with you on. I can and will attempt to write it in a neutral way. If any editor thinks it is non-neutral, may be they'd do well to wp:fixfirst (instead of wholesale revert, which even wp:brd doesn't encourage).

One moment you said it's because the club had no success in the last 15 years, Yes, that's for why the moniker has stuck. then you say top 4/top 6, That part is to justify its inclusion in the rivarly section. then Premier League era (why Premier League era only?) This is because you went on about wp:recentism. The Premier League era is a significant part of the history of any top club. {Even for Spurs, that has been true for only a few times recently. I don't know what your fixation is with "bottlers" specifically. You keep going on and on about that. And bring Everton of all clubs in to the discussion (who aren't even top4 / top6 rivals). They're past it. Out of scope, mate. Also, I conceded that let's leave out "bottlers", but you seemed to have ignored what I wrote above: In sum, I think you and I are on the same page, but just not about how the sentences must be formed (leaving out the usage of the word bottlers and Antonio's quotes, for a second).? Snap out of it, 'cause you come off as stonewalling otherwise.

the only thing that needs mentioning is that you need to gain consensus to re-add your edit I don't if none of the other editors are replying here, they're awol or wp:stonewalling. I'll wait a few days. I am patient. Btw, thank you for agreeing with me on Spursy warranting a mention. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Unless there is a clear definition of what Spursy means, who came up with it, when and why, along with reliable supporting sources, this just seems a lot of non-encyclopaedic fluff. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:08, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Is this an arbitrary criteria, or is this criteria anywhere in Wikipedia's content policy? Also, we aren't talking about creating a new page titled Spursy here, just mentioning it in the "rivalry" section. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, yes, it's right at the top. See WP:V and WP:NOR. WaggersTALK 10:45, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Imo, the term Spursy is neither original research (I didn't make it up), and it most definitely doesn't lack reliable sources. Can you please point out the exact reason why you'd think so? Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 11:10, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The question is not whether the term exists and is used, but whether it's specific to / originated with rival supporters. All the evidence we've found so far - including anecdotal evidence - points to the term originating either with Spurs fans or with neutral commentators. Hence it doesn't belong in the rivalry section. It might belong elsewhere in the article. WaggersTALK 15:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The other thing we need to bear in mind is WP:RECENT. All the sources we can find indicate that "Spursy" was coined and gained prominence within the last 10 years. In an article about a 140-year-old club we need to make sure that, if we do mention it, we don't give it undue weight. WaggersTALK 15:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

It is wp:undue if I write a paragraph about it. One sentence isn't undue. It isn't wp:recent, a decade isn't recent; 140 year old institution or not. Wikipedia is a living document for a reason. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

but whether it's specific to / originated with rival supporters Don't think that matters since the term is widely in use by rivals fans. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 13:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Despite User:Murtaza.aliakbar’s many arguments, I find nothing in them to be persuasive. The section is about rivalry. Even if we were to say that everyone involved in football is a rival in some way, the editor’s assertions fail to sway me and it really looks like that editor is refusing to accept any other editor’s reasoning, which is uncomfortably like edit warring. Unless editors come forward to support Murtaza.aliakbar’s POV, I think he should accept he has not argued successfully and we should move on. LenF54 (talk) 15:57, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@LenF54: many arguments, I find nothing in them to be persuasive ... the editor’s assertions fail to sway me and it really looks like that editor is refusing to accept any other editor’s reasoning I can say the same. For you.

Unless editors come forward to support Murtaza.aliakbar’s POV spursy is something at least two editors have agreed with, so what are you on about?

I think he should accept he has not argued successfully and we should move on Au contraire, editors involved in the discussion here have jumped from wp:or to wp:synth to wp:recentism and I've answered each of those cases. If you don't have a counter claim, then you shouldn't be the one to say we should move on, imo. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 13:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Well you go into the bar, get a plastic pint glass and it fills up from the bottom! So they aren't bottling there! Needless to say, too much text to read, I gave up halfway through once it felt like a roundabout! :/ Govvy (talk) 13:40, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Super relevant to this sub-thread and super constructive. /s Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

@Murtaza.aliakbar You have posted many arguments, at great length. Others have posted counter arguments. You have then posted counter counter arguments. Yes we agree that the term 'Spursy' is applied by some. We do not agree that the text you repeatedly added to the article should be included, and nobody seems to be agreeing with you on this point. You have not persuaded me, and I have the right to say so while we try to reach some kind of consensus. I also have the right to say that I see no point in continuing the tediously long-winded and futile discussion. You have the right to disagree with me. LenF54 (talk) 15:49, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

nobody seems to be agreeing with you on this point Like I said, spursy is something two other editors have agreed to.

I have the right to say so while we try to reach some kind of consensus. Then will you speak just for yourself and not some collective "we"? Thanks.

Others have posted counter arguments I pointed out that their counters are wikilawyering, since they kept hopping from one policy to another.

the text you repeatedly added to the article should be includedIf the point is about the "text" / "wording" itself, then surely wp:fixfirst applies. If you have been following the discussion, you'd know I am not here arguing that the entirety of what the initial edit had go up back again. Just the Spursy part in okay by me as it captures bottlers and the rest of the edit quite succinctly. And it seems like I have my consensus for that. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 16:26, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

@Murtaza.aliakbar Apologies for my lack of precision. I speak for no-one other than myself. When I say “We agree” I mean you and I. When I say “We do not agree” I again mean you and I. A large chunk of the text on rivalry was deleted by an editor. You reinstated it in full. It was again deleted. You again reinstated it. The cycle continued. You now say you are not arguing for the entirety of the text (bottlers, HITC, Spursy, Chiellini et al). You say that I have not persuaded you. I have not attempted to. You have not persuaded me. I am entitled to express my content or discontent, just like any other editor, and I will be happy to see a consensus reached. LenF54 (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus for adding any mention of "Spursy" to the rivalries section; in fact I see a consensus against doing that. And, as others have pointed out, this discussion has run its course now. Let's drop it and do something more productive. WaggersTALK 07:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@Waggers: I don't see any consensus for adding any mention of "Spursy" to the rivalries section; in fact I see a consensus against doing that Not true. I spot at least hzh agree with me. And what policies is the consensus against its inclusion in the rivalry section based on? wp:sqs isn't exactly the hill do die on. This discussion hasn't run its course, I don't think.

Let's drop it and do something more productive. You're free to drop it and move on. Thank you very much. Appreciate your time. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 10:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

This is becoming a case of WP:DONTGETIT. I'll spell it out one more time: "Spursy" is not related to rivalry, it's a term used by Spurs fans and neutral commentators too. That's why it doesn't belong in the rivalry section. Your refusal - and yours alone - to understand that very simple point doesn't mean this discussion needs to go on any further when the rest of us have reached agreement. Consensus is not unanimity. WaggersTALK 10:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll spell it out one more time: "Spursy" is not related to rivalry, it's a term used by Spurs fans and neutral commentators too So, it can go in the article then? We just need to find a nice cozy place for it?

This is becoming a case of WP:DONTGETIT. More wiki lawerying. So, now we're going from wp:synth to wp:or to wp:undue to this. I do get it. But you folks should comment on where there's wp:coi here as Spurs fans yourselves (perhaps? I don't know)

Your refusal - and yours alone - to understand that very simple point My refusal is because you folks aren't making arguments in good faith and are wp:sqs. For instance, you pointed out Spursy is wp:recent then you said its wp:undue and I replied to both of those allegations without reply. But here you are claiming some consensus which I can't see at all based in any real content guideline / policy. Btw, as pointed out, hzh agrees with the inclusion of Spursy, so it is not just me (ctrl+f, then search): I would concede possibly "Spursy" is a word that could be included given that it is unusual for a term derived from a club to become common usage. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 14:35, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Finally, the penny drops. As I've said above, yes there is scope for mentioning the term somewhere in the article providing it is well sourced (and there are several reliable sources that talk about "spursy" and "spursiness" so that shouldn't be hard) and it isn't given undue weight given the term has only existed for the last few years. As I said right at the start, if we can reliably source the actual origin of the term then so much the better. But regardless of what you can or can't see, there's a clear consensus here against that being in the Rivalries section.

And I'm not taking any lectures on "wikilawyering" from someone who splashes the {{tquote}} template in their every reply. There's no need to quote the post you're replying to, we can all read it for ourselves. WaggersTALK 10:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2023

Add Ange Postecoglu instead of Ryan Mason which is listed as so under 'Acting Head Coach' Djosbourne (talk) 10:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Already done. Govvy (talk) 11:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

New season pages added.

• 1897–98 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season
• 1898–99 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season
• 1899–1900 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season

If anyone wants to check them over if I have made any mistakes please do. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 14:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• 1901–02 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season - added today. Govvy (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Plus these two have been added,

• 1902–03 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season
• 1903–04 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season - this one today. Regards. Govvy (talk) 16:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Social responsibility section

Can we get rid of 8.1 (London Academy of Excellence) and 8.2 (Environmental sustainability)? They seem a bit pointless and media'ish to me. Govvy (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

@Govvy They do come across as PR but they are nevertheless factual. I would prefer to keep but I do not hold strong views either way. I have also not convinced myself that the social responsibility section, together with other non-football activities, should be the subject of a separate (linked) article, perhaps listed under the Departments of Tottenham Hotspur heading below the infobox. I will happily go along with the consensus. Bon chance. LenF54 (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes. London Academy of Excellence may be warrants a sentence or two, not a sub-section. Similarly, the Sustainability part is notable especially since Spurs seem like they are one of the first PL clubs to make sweeping changes and have set ambitious targets. Winning the "greenest PL club" for 4 years running is notable. May be it doesn't warrant a sub-section on its own. If it comes off as "PR", then the perhaps sentences could be reworded and cruft / soapbox / news removed. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 16:52, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

• I think they can be deleted. The London Academy of Excellence section can be moved to the Northumberland development project article, and leave just a sentence here that it exists. If anyone feels there are things in the Environmental sustainability section that are worth keeping, I think the whole section can be shortened into one or two sentences. The whole social responsibility section can be condensed significantly. Hzh (talk) 20:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Anyone wants to trim that section? Hzh (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Current Player list

I think it looks odd to have the selected U21s in a separate list below the 25 man roster. I don't recall that it was done this way in the past. I'd have the main roster players and all U21s that have been selected as part of a match day squad (either playing or substitutes) which I think is true of the four listed in the same list. Maybe there can be a parenthetical that they are U21. Dawindler (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I based it on the THFC website, as per the cited sources. The four listed as allocated to the U-21s are part of the first team, as per one source, but not part of the Premier League squad, as per another source. If any players from the academy development squad appear for the first team. they remain listed under the academy as per the THFC website. I think the problem is with my wording "Other first-team players not in the Premier League squad (all allocated to the Under-21 list)" and I would be happy for others to improve on this. LenF54 (talk) 16:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I've looked at other pages and the Chelsea page has their U21s (Malo Gusto, etc) listed with everyone else, the Liverpool page has Harvey Elliot, etc. If they're eligible to play for us, why does it matter what list they're on? I'm quite sure in previous years U21s that have featured in match day squads were listed with everyone else. How can Pape Sarr and Destiny Udogie start every game for us in the Premier League and not be in the Premier League squad? It seems like a semantic issue, so maybe don't use "Premier League Squad" if you have some issue with that, or you give it some meaning other than eligible to play in the premier league. It looks very odd to have them in a different list, especially when two of them have started most games. I think most people coming to a page looking at the list of current Tottenham players want to see a list of current Tottenham players. Dawindler (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I would just cite to this page https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/teams/men/players/. The list is "current squad" not "current premier league squad" so there's no reason for a separate list for those not in the "premier league squad." All four players are listed as part of the first team squad, and therefore part of the "squad." Dawindler (talk) 16:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that, since this is an encyclopedia, it should mention who is in the Premier League squad and who isn't. When Danny Rose was left out of the Premier League squad, he was removed from the page completely, which I thought was going too far. Anyway, please see https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2023/september/squad-confirmed-for-202324-premier-league-season/. In the article I have tried to bring the sources together. I think we can all see that Spurs have manipulated the rules to have a first team squad of 29, but that's their right. Let's hear what others have to say, and hope they can improve the article. LenF54 (talk) 17:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the first team has ever been only for the Premier League, so I'm not sure why there is a need to do that. Hzh (talk) 17:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

But they are in the premier league squad... they play in the premier league! (And in any case, as noted, the title of the list is not premier league squad.) If they were ineligible to play in the premier league, maybe they should be listed separately, but all the players listed have at least made the bench and two have played. As the list exists now, it sews confusion because it makes it sound like the listed players cannot play in the premier league. I know that they are in a separate list, but I don't think a wikipedia page should assume that the reader knows the minutiae of premier league roster rules. Dawindler (talk) 17:06, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't know why we have Other first-team players not in the Premier League squad, the title above is Current squad and not premier league squad, can we just integrate them back? Govvy (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

So far I don't see any evidence of support for that, so it needs to be reverted. Hzh (talk) 21:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll give it a couple of days then, if no support, I'll revert it myself. LenF54 (talk) 14:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Reverted by another editor last night. LenF54 (talk) 14:48, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2023

Andy Scoulding is now Loans Manager rather than Assistant Performance Director 2A02:C7C:D2D0:B300:54BD:B459:6EB2:61DF (talk) 20:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. PianoDan (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)