Talk:Trafford Training Centre

Name of article

Should this article be called Carrington training ground rather than the current title of Trafford Training Centre. --Vintagekits 20:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No, the official name of Manchester United's training ground is the Trafford Training Centre. - PeeJay 22:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Dont we use "most common name"? I think most people would search for "Carrington" rather than Trafford". No!? --Vintagekits 22:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Google is 10,000 v 1,800 hits. Not the be all and end all but a good indication.--Vintagekits 22:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe so, but Manchester City and Sale Sharks both have training grounds in Carrington too, so if we were to rename this article as Carrington training ground, as you propose, things might get quite confusing. Like I say, United's training ground is officially known as the Trafford Training Centre, but I will include a sentence in the lead about its common name. - PeeJay 22:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Name change (Aon Training Complex)

This article was subject to a successful name change on 2 February 2014, from "Trafford Training Centre" to "Aon Training Complex". The Manchester United training ground was, up until 7 April 2013 known officially as the "Trafford Training Centre", although more commonly referred to as "Carrington" "training ground or "training centre". From 1 July 2013, Manchester United and Aon plc agreed that the new official name for the training ground was to be the "Aon Training Complex", as per an 8-year (2021) naming rights sponsorship contract. Arguments have been made that based on the fact the name of the training ground was changed for sponsorship reasons and not geographical reasons, the name should remain the same. However, it is quite definite that the club (Manchester United FC) changed the name officially to "Aon Training Complex", and that the old name "Trafford Training Centre" is now considered obsolete. The ground is still regularly referred to as "Carrington".

A precedent of this on Wikipedia is that Arsenal FC's stadium, Emirates Stadium, is named the "Emirates Stadium" and not "Ashburton Grove", which is the official/old name of the stadium. It is also clear that the media are more commonly referring to Manchester United's training ground as "Aon Training Complex" or "Carrington", but never is "Trafford Training Centre", which has not been mentioned for over 9 months (up until February 2014). Reverting or changing this article's name will be acceptable when the sponsorship contract ends on 1 July 2021, when the name will revert back to its old name, or remain the same if the contract is extended, or be renamed subject to a new naming rights agreement.

--Irish321 (talk) 00:12, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

If you acknowledge that "Trafford Training Centre" is the name that the stadium will revert to when the sponsorship contract ends, surely the previous name should remain as the article title, with the sponsored name given due prominence near the start of the article? After all, you don't see us renaming the Premier League article every time they get a new sponsor, do you? Furthermore, this name change is clearly controversial, and you should have allowed this discussion to take place before making such a drastic move. I have therefore requested that the previous name be reinstated until the discussion is concluded. – PeeJay 03:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I have no problem per se with changing the name of the article if consensus dictates as such, but I do think such a change needs discussion first. – PeeJay 18:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

First of all, it's quite likely that in 8 years (2021), the training ground will be renamed to another sponsor (example: "Chevrolet Training Complex", etc.) rather than revert back to "Trafford Training Centre", or that Aon plc will extend their naming rights contract with Manchester United. The title of this article can therefore be changed in 8 years again when that occurs. Secondly, your point about changing the "Premier League" name is irrelevant because the sponsor ("Barclays") have their name on front of "Premier League", rather than rename the actual title. Whereas, "Trafford Training Centre" changed to "Aon Training Complex" (a full name-change), with the only part of the name remaining being "Training", while "Premier League" is called "Barclays Premier League", with the "Premier League" part remaining.

I have already made the case that the precedent for this name change has already been set on Wikipedia: Arsenal FC's stadium is titled "Emirates Stadium". More examples of this are; Stoke City FC's ground titled "Britannia Stadium" and Wigan Athletic's ground titled "DW Stadium", the only reason Manchester City FC's stadium title has remained "City of Manchester Stadium" is because there are two grounds named "Etihad Stadium" ("Docklands Stadium" in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia). Manchester City's new training complex is named on Wikipedia as the "Etihad Campus", again as per a naming rights agreement. The "Samsung Training Center" (in South Korea) is another article on a training complex named because of sponsorship. All of which will have their names reverted or changed again when their respective sponsorship/naming rights agreements run out. These 5 articles have set a clear precedent on Wikipedia, and if this article is to buck the trend, so then should the others revert back to their previous/original or non-sponsor names?

Another valid reason for why this page should be renamed "Aon Training Complex" is because the club, Manchester United, now officially refer to their training ground as the "Aon Training Complex" in official publications, online and on the MUTV Manchester United Television channel. Names around the training ground have been changed to "Aon Training Complex, and the media now refer to the training ground as either the "Aon Training Complex" or "Carrington". The name "Trafford Training Centre" is no longer its name officially or unofficially, and no-one refers to it as such. It is obsolete and irrelevant to therefore continue to name this article after it. When the training ground's official name was "Trafford Training Centre", very rarely did anybody use that name, instead referring to "Carrington" as the club's training ground, but it was kept as such on Wikipedia because back then that was its official name. "Trafford Training Centre" no longer exists, and neither should it as the page's title. It is not up to me, you or anybody else to deny a name change based on the fact the name change is for sponsorship reasons - it is the club's decision, as they own the training ground, which they now call the "Aon Training Complex". There is no valid reason to continue to name this article "Trafford Training Centre". You have 24 hours to respond, before I rename the article to its correct and current name "Aon Training Complex", and if you again revert that change I will seek a dispute resolution moderator. You have no valid argument to use the previous/old name, and the only reason it can be interpreted as "controversial" is because Aon plc is involved?

--Irish321 (talk) 19:55, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

You are free to seek a third opinion on this, and I would be keen to hear a third opinion, but it is not up to you to set a timeframe for this move. You have to accept that other people will wish to contribute to this discussion, and that may take more than 24 hours. – PeeJay 20:49, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I am open to a third party opinion, however the onus is on you to seek such, as you are the one blocking the name change. I would also appreciate if you could respond to my above reply, as you are the one with the issue concerning the name change. I look forward to it, however unless there is an overwhelming opposition to this name change, it will go ahead as Manchester United FC have officially changed the name of the club's training ground from "Trafford Training Centre" to "Aon Training Complex", and I have explained why above.

--Irish321 (talk) 22:12, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

No valid argument has been made within a reasonable amount of time by User:PeeJay2K3 or any other third party blocking the name change. Therefore, the article name on Wikipedia has been changed in line with precedent and the official name of Manchester United FC's training ground - from "Trafford Training Centre" to "Aon Training Complex". The necessary criteria for a name change has been met, and set out above. Any more reversions to the name of this article will be deemed frivolous.

--Irish321 (talk) 15:46, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

It's been two days! You need to give it at least a week. – PeeJay 15:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Please leave the page's title as it is, as undoing my move will mess up almost 40 redirects which I have spend the past number of hours redirecting to the correct title. You can make your case over the next week for a reversion, however unless there is overwhelming opposition (based on reasonable grounds), there is absolutely no reason why this page should be titled after the previous, extinct name of Manchester United FC's training ground. The reasons are set above, including 6 precedents within the Premier League itself and the fact Manchester United FC have officially changed the name of their training ground from "Trafford Training Centre" to "Aon Training Complex", which it is now commonly known as. Your entire argument appears to be based on the fact you don't 'like' that the training ground is named after the company sponsoring it (Aon plc), while that may be commendable, it is not a reason to block a valid name change on Wikipedia, especially when precedents have already been set.

--Irish321 (talk) 16:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

No, you should revert your changes to those other pages until we have determined whether the move should be made. Furthermore, as you are the one requesting the move, the onus is, in fact, on you to instigate the discussion using the process detailed at WP:RM. Please inform the users at WT:FOOTY once you have done this. – PeeJay 20:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I won't be making any more alterations to the name until it is decided and we come to a consensus with User:PeeJay2K3, as it is just frivolously reverted after I change the name in any case and will keep messing up redirects to this article. I've made the case above for a name change, in line with Wikipedia policy, precedent and the official name, which is now "Aon Training Complex" (previously "Trafford Training Centre"). The original name change was made in good faith, and in line with Wikipedia policy (WP:RM If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move, be bold and move the page.) However, the name change is repeatedly blocked on contentious grounds. I welcome third party mediation and opinions on this, again in line with Wikipedia policy. I also welcome User:PeeJay2K3 to make valid points on this issue, as this user is blocking the move. Currently, it seems that the fact this user doesn't like the new name and the fact it *might* be changed again in 8 years time is why the name of this article should remain antiquated, which although might be morally sound it does not make any valid case to block a name change. If User:PeeJay2K3 still wants to block the move, the user needs to explain why. I look forward to hearing from you and others over the next 7 days (week) as you propose, at which time the article's name will be altered for good.

--Irish321 (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Consensus must be reached with all editors, not only PeeJay2K3. Since I trust that editor to apply Wikipedia and FOOTY guidelines appropriately, I don't need to stick my nose into the general workings of the discussion, but I have been watching it. In short, my opinion is that sponsorship is temporary and should not be reflected in an article name. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Irish321, the very quote you have used above is the exact reason why you should have put this article through the WP:RM process. You may not have anticipated a dispute regarding the move, but I believe that is a case of bad judgement (or possibly ignorance of the issues – not a criticism, just a statement of fact) on your part. If you attempt to move this article again without seeking a full and proper consensus on the matter, I will report you for disruptive conduct. I do not wish to do this, as your expansion of this article has been quite valuable, but Wikipedia is a collaborative project and as a member of that collaboration, I cannot allow you to make disruptive edits unabated. – PeeJay 00:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Noted, User:PeeJay2K3, thanks for your contributions. I will let you and others make the final decision on this, I'm done with this article for the moment. Good luck! I'll just add to Walter Görlitz that Carrington has been in existence since 2000, from then until mid-2013 it was named "Trafford Training Centre" (13 years) and from mid-2013 to mid-2021 it is/will be named "Aon Training Complex" (8 years). So, it depends on how you define "temporary".

--Irish321 (talk) 01:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

References